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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 206357 times)

Jockey

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #725 on: September 30, 2019, 10:44:09 AM »
You guys are really letting this troll do it again?

He has no beliefs - he is simply pulling your strings.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #726 on: September 30, 2019, 11:13:08 AM »
You guys are really letting this troll do it again?

He has no beliefs - he is simply pulling your strings.

No beliefs?  Actually many.  I think this is benefiting the haves and hurting the have nots.  I have provided ample examples and like minded reasoning of those same beliefs by others.  You can disagree with me all you wish, but those are my beliefs.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #727 on: September 30, 2019, 11:14:24 AM »
Amazing.  You’re arguing programs are being decimated by grad transfers but coaches leaving for better jobs is okay because of a buyout.  Your intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking at this point.  Truly, I applaud you.  Masterful work

I am arguing the law.  Coaches are employees, student athletes are not.  That isn’t masterful, it is what the courts have decided.  There is nothing intellectually dishonest about this.  Why are you ignoring what the courts have decided?
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #728 on: September 30, 2019, 11:17:48 AM »
You keep making this point as if it were relevant.
And why should a player have to pay a buyout? Scholarships are not employment contracts (as you've noted).

Anyhow, for a guy who talks a lot about the NCAA being there to benefit student-athletes, you sure seem concerned with creation of a system that primarily protects the coaches, administrators and schools.

I am for a system that benefits most, not the few.  What you and others are advocating for is helping the few.

And yes, it is entirely relevant as comparing an employee with employee legal rights to a student athlete ( a non employee) is absurd.  So yes, it is entirely relevant.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #729 on: September 30, 2019, 11:23:19 AM »
I am for a system that benefits most, not the few. 

No, you're advocating for just the opposite. You want to deprive thousands of student-athletes the freedom  to seek better opportunities in order to protect the interests of a small number of mid-major coaches and athletic departments who might be negatively affected.

Quote
And yes, it is entirely relevant as comparing an employee with employee legal rights to a student athlete ( a non employee) is absurd.  So yes, it is entirely relevant.

This has nothing to do with employee rights.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #730 on: September 30, 2019, 11:23:27 AM »
Cheeks,

Im not sure you know what irony means. If anything what your said was the opposite of irony. It would be ironic if I represented a mid major.

What you don't seem to get is that I don't care if mid major coaches don't like grad transfers. For that matter,  I don't give a sh*t about mid or low majors either other than which ones Marquette is going to schedule as cupcakes. They exist to be beaten by high majors and then for a few of them to win a couple of games in March so we can all feel good about them before they ultimately get beaten by a high major.

That's how it has been for years. Banning grad transfers isnt going to change that. You laughed at me for calling CUSA mid major before?  Fine, I don't agree but that only strengthens my earlier point. That means in the 18 years prior to the Russell Wilson rule, only 6 mid majors made the final four. 3 of them are now in high major conferences and 1 of them was sanctioned for cheating.

If mid major coaches don't like it,  be better so your players don't want to leave you.

You finally admitted to what I have been saying....you don’t give a crap about mid majors.   Exactly what I said. I applaud you for the honesty.

I happen to think mid majors are a good thing for college basketball, but you appear not to care as others don’t either.  I expect that from someone in one of the largest athletic depts in the country.  Again, I appreciate the honesty.

Show me where I said banning grad transfers is what I propose?  I don’t want to ban it, but I do want to make it so it doesn’t just benefit the haves at the detriment of the smaller schools.  Unintended consequences which some of us said would happen, did happen. 

The same will happen with this paid likeness nonsense, but if the end game here is that 40 to 50 athletic depts are standing with a chance and no one else matters literally and figuratively, well you will eventually get your wish.  The unintended consequences be damned.



"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #731 on: September 30, 2019, 11:29:20 AM »
No, you're advocating for just the opposite. You want to deprive thousands of student-athletes the freedom  to seek better opportunities in order to protect the interests of a small number of mid-major coaches and athletic departments who might be negatively affected.

This has nothing to do with employee rights.

No I am not.  I do not oppose transfers.  If that better opportunity exists, fine.  Sit out a year and then you get that better opportunity.  In the process, you also don’t crater the situation you are in by leaving them high and dry and the chance they took on you in the first place.  Win win for all.  You keep arguing that I am against transfers, I am not and I beg you to find where I ever said it.  I want protections for all parties involved, but I am not against them.

Student athletes are not employees. FACT, not opinion.


December 6, 2016
Yesterday, the Seventh Circuit released a decision broadly ruling that student-athletes are not employees for purposes of the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). In Berger v. National Collegiate Athletic Association, two women track and field athletes who ran at the University of Pennsylvania sued Penn, the NCAA and 120 other colleges claiming that they were employees entitled to minimum wage for all hours spent in track and field activities. Each received a scholarship, but consistent with Ivy League rules, their scholarships were not dependent on athletic participation.

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #732 on: September 30, 2019, 11:34:39 AM »
Right.  We know.  Student athletes are not employees.

That's not the point.  The point is that you are defending a system that "decimates" mid-major programs on the one hand (when successful coaches leave), but are complaining about one that allows players to leave.  No one is making a legal argument.  They are making a philosophical one.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #733 on: September 30, 2019, 11:35:53 AM »
No I am not.  I do not oppose transfers.  If that better opportunity exists, fine.  Sit out a year and then you get that better opportunity.  In the process, you also don’t crater the situation you are in by leaving them high and dry and the chance they took on you in the first place.  Win win for all.  You keep arguing that I am against transfers, I am not and I beg you to find where I ever said it.  I want protections for all parties involved, but I am not against them.

How does making a kid sit out a year not leave the team he's transferring from "high and dry?" The player is gone either way.
Marquette isn't going to miss Sam Hauser any less this year because he has to spend a season on the bench at Virginia.
What a silly argument.

The sit-out rule exists as a disincentive to the player. It helps neither the school he/she is leaving or the school he/she is transferring to.

The rest is you arguing against things not said, which seems to be your go-to move when you're losing.

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #734 on: September 30, 2019, 11:36:41 AM »
Right.  We know.  Student athletes are not employees.

That's not the point.  The point is that you are defending a system that "decimates" mid-major programs on the one hand (when successful coaches leave), but are complaining about one that allows players to leave.  No one is making a legal argument.  They are making a philosophical one.

Yes, thank you.

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #735 on: September 30, 2019, 11:40:22 AM »
Statement from Pac12..

Statement from Pac 12..



 Statement from the Pac-12 on the signing of California SB 206






 By Pac-12 Conference

 Sep 30, 2019
 .










 The Pac-12 is disappointed in the passage of SB 206 and believes it will have very significant negative consequences for our student-athletes and broader universities in California. This legislation will lead to the professionalization of college sports and many unintended consequences related to this professionalism, imposes a state law that conflicts with national rules, will blur the lines for how California universities recruit student-athletes and compete nationally, and will likely reduce resources and opportunities for student-athletes in Olympic sports and have a negative disparate impact on female student-athletes.

 Our universities have led important student-athlete reform over the past years, but firmly believe all reforms must treat our student-athletes as students pursuing an education, and not as professional athletes. We will work with our universities to determine next steps and ensure continuing support for our student-athletes.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #736 on: September 30, 2019, 12:00:19 PM »
The Pac-12 is disappointed in the passage of SB 206 and believes it will have very significant negative consequences for our student-athletes and broader universities in California. This legislation will lead to the professionalization of college sports and many unintended consequences related to this professionalism, imposes a state law that conflicts with national rules, will blur the lines for how California universities recruit student-athletes and compete nationally, and will likely reduce resources and opportunities for student-athletes in Olympic sports and have a negative disparate impact on female student-athletes.

This is the same conference that recently had its media rights valued at $5 billion.
They. Have. No. Shame.

mu03eng

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #737 on: September 30, 2019, 12:00:35 PM »
Statement from Pac12..

Statement from Pac 12..



 Statement from the Pac-12 on the signing of California SB 206






 By Pac-12 Conference

 Sep 30, 2019
 .










 The Pac-12 is disappointed in the passage of SB 206 and believes it will have very significant negative consequences for our student-athletes and broader universities in California. This legislation will lead to the professionalization of college sports and many unintended consequences related to this professionalism, imposes a state law that conflicts with national rules, will blur the lines for how California universities recruit student-athletes and compete nationally, and will likely reduce resources and opportunities for student-athletes in Olympic sports and have a negative disparate impact on female student-athletes.

 Our universities have led important student-athlete reform over the past years, but firmly believe all reforms must treat our student-athletes as students pursuing an education, and not as professional athletes. We will work with our universities to determine next steps and ensure continuing support for our student-athletes.

This coming from the same organization that unsuccessfully tried to get to hundreds of millions of dollars from private equity firms in exchange for some small amount of media rights (15% I think)
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mu03eng

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #738 on: September 30, 2019, 12:01:54 PM »
This is the same conference that recently had its media rights valued at $5 billion.
They. Have. No. Shame.

To be fair, they way the Pac-12 mismanages it's media rights they are definitely going to reduce the funding available to the student-athletes.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #739 on: September 30, 2019, 12:02:50 PM »
To be fair, they way the Pac-12 mismanages it's media rights they are definitely going to reduce the funding available to the student-athletes.

You mean 9 a.m. football games isn't the answer?

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #740 on: September 30, 2019, 12:04:00 PM »
Davidson is a very successful mid-major program that has developed numerous outstanding basketball players - athletes that many high-majors might be very interested in should those players want to leave via the grad transfer rule.

One reason very few want to leave might be because Davidson coach Bob McKillop has been there for 30 years. Despite having numerous opportunities to leave for much more high-profile jobs, he has been content to build and maintain the Davidson program. He has said he makes plenty of money, he loves it there, he feels appreciated, he feels the school has given him the resources he needs to compete, etc.

I have nothing against coaches who would leave a place like Davidson for a P6 school; I'm just pointing out that like a few others, McKillop has decided he does not need to go to a major to have what he considers a satisfying, successful coaching experience.

And I fully acknowledge that it's only my opinion that maybe it's because McKillop truly is loyal and because he has built a real basketball family atmosphere that Davidson's best players have not chosen to go the grad-transfer route.

This year, Davidson actually does have one grad transfer in the portal: 6-10 forward Dusan Kovacevic. He is likely to end up at another mid-major, or maybe even move down a level because he didn't prove to be an A-10 level basketball player in his 3 years at Davidson.

The latter is quite common about grad transfers. We hear about the few high-profile kids who make the big splash into a major program, but lots and lots of them are not "studs" whose departures will hurt the programs they are leaving. They are just student-athletes who have worked hard in school to graduate and who want to keep playing basketball without having to sit out a year.

I'm not sure what good it would do for college basketball to force all the Dusan Kovacevics out there to sit out a year before they play at William & Mary or Chicago State or Texas Southern.

And what about the likes of Katin Reinhardt and Jayce Johnson? They didn't leave some small school to go to Marquette. They left Pac-12 programs for opportunities they knew would be better. They should have had to sit out a year?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 12:05:48 PM by MU82 »
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mu03eng

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #741 on: September 30, 2019, 12:07:13 PM »
You mean 9 a.m. football games isn't the answer?

I enjoy the Pac-12 After Dark as much as the next guy.....
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

lawdog77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #742 on: September 30, 2019, 12:08:47 PM »
Statement from Pac12..

Statement from Pac 12..



 Statement from the Pac-12 on the signing of California SB 206






 By Pac-12 Conference

 Sep 30, 2019
 .










 The Pac-12 is disappointed in the passage of SB 206 and believes it will have very significant negative consequences for our student-athletes and broader universities in California. This legislation will lead to the professionalization of college sports and many unintended consequences related to this professionalism, imposes a state law that conflicts with national rules, will blur the lines for how California universities recruit student-athletes and compete nationally, and will likely reduce resources and opportunities for student-athletes in Olympic sports and have a negative disparate impact on female student-athletes.

 Our universities have led important student-athlete reform over the past years, but firmly believe all reforms must treat our student-athletes as students pursuing an education, and not as professional athletes. We will work with our universities to determine next steps and ensure continuing support for our student-athletes.
will this trickle down to high schools? 

mu03eng

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #743 on: September 30, 2019, 12:10:14 PM »
Davidson is a very successful mid-major program that has developed numerous outstanding basketball players - athletes that many high-majors might be very interested in should those players want to leave via the grad transfer rule.

One reason very few want to leave might be because Davidson coach Bob McKillop has been there for 30 years. Despite having numerous opportunities to leave for much more high-profile jobs, he has been content to build and maintain the Davidson program. He has said he makes plenty of money, he loves it there, he feels appreciated, he feels the school has given him the resources he needs to compete, etc.

I have nothing against coaches who would leave a place like Davidson for a P6 school; I'm just pointing out that like a few others, McKillop has decided he does not need to go to a major to have what he considers a satisfying, successful coaching experience.

And I fully acknowledge that it's only my opinion that maybe it's because McKillop truly is loyal and because he has built a real basketball family atmosphere that Davidson's best players have not chosen to go the grad-transfer route.

This year, Davidson actually does have one grad transfer in the portal: 6-10 forward Dusan Kovacevic. He is likely to end up at another mid-major, or maybe even move down a level because he didn't prove to be an A-10 level basketball player in his 3 years at Davidson.

The latter is quite common about grad transfers. We hear about the few high-profile kids who make the big splash into a major program, but lots and lots of them are not "studs" whose departures will hurt the programs they are leaving. They are just student-athletes who have worked hard in school to graduate and who want to keep playing basketball without having to sit out a year.

I'm not sure what good it would do for college basketball to force all the Dusan Kovacevics out there to sit out a year before they play at William & Mary or Chicago State or Texas Southern.

And what about the likes of Katin Reinhardt and Jayce Johnson? They didn't leave some small school to go to Marquette. They left Pac-12 programs for opportunities they knew would be better. They should have had to sit out a year?

But MU82 you aren't setting up the rules for an oddly specific and narrow example in which one player left for a better program and the previous program was declared devastated by a person who is paid handsomely to put a team on the floor that can get walloped by other higher level teams in the name of generating revenue for said school
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mu03eng

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #744 on: September 30, 2019, 12:12:51 PM »
will this trickle down to high schools?

Why, are there a lot of dollars in lucrative media rights for high school programs and/or players on said high school team?

"Hi, I'm Joe Blow from Pasadena North High School where I'm the sophomore quarterback, let me tell you about Steve's Mattress and Sleeper Sofa Emporium....."
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

CTWarrior

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #745 on: September 30, 2019, 12:14:02 PM »
I'm not sure what good it would do for college basketball to force all the Dusan Kovacevics out there to sit out a year before they play at William & Mary or Chicago State or Texas Southern.
While I agree with the grad transfer exception and think it should stay, it may be more beneficial not to have it for guys like Kovacevics because he would get two years of free school toward a graduate degree if he had to sit out.  OTOH, William & Mary (or whomever) may not want to give him two years of scholarship for one year of play.

I still think it boils down to whether you think D-I players are athletes first or students first.  If they are students first, the one year out rule makes sense, and if they are basketball players first, it doesn't.  I think the NCAA necessarily has to think of them as students first, but the member institutions ought to start behaving like it in all areas, not just by prohibiting transfers.  They need to give these kids a real education.
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Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #746 on: September 30, 2019, 12:23:46 PM »
I still think it boils down to whether you think D-I players are athletes first or students first.  If they are students first, the one year out rule makes sense, and if they are basketball players first, it doesn't.  I think the NCAA necessarily has to think of them as students first, but the member institutions ought to start behaving like it in all areas, not just by prohibiting transfers.  They need to give these kids a real education.

To rehash an old argument, if it's a student/academics issue, then why not impose it for all athletes and all levels, not just the small number that drive revenues?

lawdog77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #747 on: September 30, 2019, 12:35:54 PM »
Why, are there a lot of dollars in lucrative media rights for high school programs and/or players on said high school team?

"Hi, I'm Joe Blow from Pasadena North High School where I'm the sophomore quarterback, let me tell you about Steve's Mattress and Sleeper Sofa Emporium....."
yes. Now alot of it is funneled to the Aau teams.will Nike Adidas uA etc grab these kids when they are 15, or earlier?

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #748 on: September 30, 2019, 12:37:48 PM »
Right.  We know.  Student athletes are not employees.

That's not the point.  The point is that you are defending a system that "decimates" mid-major programs on the one hand (when successful coaches leave), but are complaining about one that allows players to leave.  No one is making a legal argument.  They are making a philosophical one.

Because IT IS THE LAW.  I’m sorry if defending the law is a problem for you.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #749 on: September 30, 2019, 12:42:53 PM »
How does making a kid sit out a year not leave the team he's transferring from "high and dry?" The player is gone either way.
Marquette isn't going to miss Sam Hauser any less this year because he has to spend a season on the bench at Virginia.
What a silly argument.

The sit-out rule exists as a disincentive to the player. It helps neither the school he/she is leaving or the school he/she is transferring to.

The rest is you arguing against things not said, which seems to be your go-to move when you're losing.

Seriously?  If they have to sit out a year, less will transfer.  That’s why.  Thus not leaving as many high and dry.  It also curtails poaching and tampering.  That is why. Maybe you are fine with that behavior, I am not. 

It is a disincentive, like a tax.  That’s exactly right.  It is there for a reason.  Why are we penalizing schools for investing in kids, developing them and they just leave on a whim? 

You love to keep making employee comparisons...you realize how many companies if you invest in education or training require a payback or non compete (sit out for a few years)? 

We reap what we sow, all the grad transfer situation has done is penalize mid majors, made high majors into vultures who tamper and poach...what a great outcome. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

 

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