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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 206314 times)

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2019, 11:59:44 AM »
If they don't divulge the major violations by the end of summer, I'd say they lied.


I'll be more lenient with the timeline, but I just read that article that brewcity linked to, and my oh my did Stan Wilcox throw down the guantlet.  After quotes like those below, if nothing actually happens, the NCAA is going to look even more foolish than they usually do.

"The main thing is that we're up and ready. We're moving forward and you'll see consequences."

"So now that's it over, we're going to be moving forward with a number of Level I cases that will help people realize that, 'Yeah, the enforcement staff was in a position to move forward,'"

"Those top coaches that were mentioned in the trials where the information shows what was being said was a violation of NCAA rules, yes. They will be all part of these notices of allegations,"

"It's  a great opportunity for the enforcement staff, the committee on infractions, as well as our whole community to now try to … put things back where they need to be,"

"The membership, particularly the coaching community, have been frustrated," Wilcox said. "Those cases started 2017? We're now in '19. They want action."
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2019, 12:13:20 PM »

"The biggest thing working against it is that the money companies and boosters are now donating to universities would, in some cases, instead go directly to student-athletes -- which means universities would lose control of some revenue, and God knows they hate the idea of that."


Sounds a lot like something a really smart person here said.  ;)

Ha, yup!  It’s always about the money in college sports.  Always
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Warrior Code

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2019, 12:24:04 PM »
Charades.

As annoying chop/hack golfers at the local muni like to say...”balls in the air” on Nov 5, 2019 (2k Classic).

What can a clean program do except try to beat the living @$&% out of the cheating @$$ $h1€bag$?!

And make no mistake...we do things right here...you got a problem with it? There’s something wrong with you. We will win. We will win big. And we will win big..honorably.

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ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2019, 12:44:36 PM »
Funny how "sultan" posted the same tweet on IWBs board at the same time that FBM posted it on scoop.  Its almost like there is a hoopaloop in the machine.

brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2019, 06:31:05 PM »

I'll be more lenient with the timeline, but I just read that article that brewcity linked to, and my oh my did Stan Wilcox throw down the guantlet.  After quotes like those below, if nothing actually happens, the NCAA is going to look even more foolish than they usually do.

"The main thing is that we're up and ready. We're moving forward and you'll see consequences."

"So now that's it over, we're going to be moving forward with a number of Level I cases that will help people realize that, 'Yeah, the enforcement staff was in a position to move forward,'"

"Those top coaches that were mentioned in the trials where the information shows what was being said was a violation of NCAA rules, yes. They will be all part of these notices of allegations,"

"It's  a great opportunity for the enforcement staff, the committee on infractions, as well as our whole community to now try to … put things back where they need to be,"

"The membership, particularly the coaching community, have been frustrated," Wilcox said. "Those cases started 2017? We're now in '19. They want action."

Yeah...if nothing comes of it, this stuff is really indefensible. Feels like there's likely to be a lot of overpromising and underdelivering. And while the calendar may still call this summer, let's be honest, everyone considers Labor Day the end of summer. I guess the generous can give him until September 23 and assume he was talking about the Autumnal Equinox, but we all know he meant that hammer was supposed to drop by now.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2019, 06:58:40 PM »
Yeah...if nothing comes of it, this stuff is really indefensible. Feels like there's likely to be a lot of overpromising and underdelivering. And while the calendar may still call this summer, let's be honest, everyone considers Labor Day the end of summer. I guess the generous can give him until September 23 and assume he was talking about the Autumnal Equinox, but we all know he meant that hammer was supposed to drop by now.

Meteorological summer ended August 31st.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2019, 07:11:36 PM »
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-would-you-support-an-olympic-style-model-for-student-athletes/

Weird.  Most coaches are okay with the Olympic model being adopted for “student athletes”.

They know the NCAA is a sham

That is weird...that most coaches would mean they surveyed 356 D1 head coaches....in fact they surveyed 100, coaches, which included assistant coaches not just head coaches.  So it is weird to say most when not even half of D1 head coaches were even surveyed.

And then we have Gary Parish’s dripping bias in the article about coaches getting “super duper rich”.  No Gary, a small handful are, the vast majority of the D1 coaches are not....but that’s Gary Parish for you.

I’d be curious if the coaches even filled this out, or is this like the coaches poll where the admin or intern fills it out.

I’d also like to know how many of these coaches are lawyers, or even have law degrees or a background in business....how are they going to handle Title IX or cost?  Of course those little tidbits I can guarantee you weren’t asked in their little survey because that would complicate things too much.  “You mean there might be legal and cost considerations...just let everyone have everything for FREEEEEEEEE”

« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 07:23:47 PM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2019, 07:14:21 PM »
If they don't divulge the major violations by the end of summer, I'd say they lied.

Come on, timelines change.  A lie is based on knowing a falsehood. 

If when they stated it they had every intention of divulging, but circumstances changed...it isn’t a lie.  Let’s get real here.

If you buy a car, sign on the dotted line and 3 days later return it because of buyer’s remorse or it is a lemon, did you lie to the dealer?  Or did circumstances change?  If you told you buddy you would go to the game with him this Sunday, but you get sick and cannot go...did you lie?

Come on.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2019, 07:15:54 PM »

"The biggest thing working against it is that the money companies and boosters are now donating to universities would, in some cases, instead go directly to student-athletes -- which means universities would lose control of some revenue, and God knows they hate the idea of that."


Sounds a lot like something a really smart person here said.  ;)

Oh how you guys would love this chaos.... tear it all down.  I still want to know who you all are rooting for in this new world because MU hoops will be like Army football.  But hey, go for it.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2019, 07:17:44 PM »
Ha, yup!  It’s always about the money in college sports.  Always

Yup...always about the money in college sports....always...except in D3 which is college sports....except in much of D2 which is college sports....except in more than half of D1 college sports....yup....always....always...always.

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2019, 07:22:20 PM »
Yeah...if nothing comes of it, this stuff is really indefensible. Feels like there's likely to be a lot of overpromising and underdelivering. And while the calendar may still call this summer, let's be honest, everyone considers Labor Day the end of summer. I guess the generous can give him until September 23 and assume he was talking about the Autumnal Equinox, but we all know he meant that hammer was supposed to drop by now.

No, everyone doesn’t....which is entirely the point.  Look at universities on quarter system, they are on Summer break until later September.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

wadesworld

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2019, 07:25:23 PM »
Chicos have there been any posts since you’ve returned to that you haven’t replied to?
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2019, 07:33:31 PM »
No, everyone doesn’t....which is entirely the point.  Look at universities on quarter system, they are on Summer break until later September.


Arguing over what constitutes the end of summer is a little much.  Honestly timelines change and that's fine.  But the bigger issue is if the NCAA is actually going to do what he said.  And I think most people don't think it will happen.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2019, 07:33:46 PM »
That is weird...that most coaches would mean they surveyed 356 D1 head coaches....in fact they surveyed 100, which included assistant coaches not head coaches.  So it is weird to say most when not even have of D1 head coaches were even surveyed.

And then we have Gary Parish’s dripping bias in the article about coaches getting “super duper rich”.  No Gary, a small handful are, the vast majority of the D1 coaches are not....but that’s Gary Parish for you.

I’d be curious if the coaches even filled this out, or is this like the coaches poll where the admin or intern fills it out.

I’d also like to know how many of these coaches are lawyers, or even have law degrees or a background in business....how are they going to handle Title IX or cost?  Of course those little tidbits I can guarantee you weren’t asked in their little survey because that would complicate things too much.  “You mean there might be legal and cost considerations...just let everyone have everything for FREEEEEEEEE”

Title IX is completely irrelevant since all athletes in all sports would be able to partake in selling their likeness.

As for your concern Marquette would become Army football, for your consideration.

Marquette successfully navigated the changing landscape of college athletics in the late 80’s by foregoing major independence and joining the old MCC which at the time was populated by teams such as Xavier, Butler, Loyola, Evansville, St. Louis and Detroit. They did so because there was no future as an independent and conferences had begun being able to work TV deals.

In a stroke of genius/luck, they joined a new league, The Great Midwest a few years later which included Cincinnati who made a Final 4 the year the league was founded.  This in turn lead to Conference USA and a Final 4 bid a decade later and finally an invitation to the Big East.

Not done yet, Marquette along with the Catholic 7 managed to escape Conference USA 2.0 and save the Big East from the Tulanes of the world. While not the Big East of 1985, the league is still one of the best in college basketball and Villanova has won two national titles in the new era.

This brief history lesson tells me Marquette has adapted quite well in a landscape that is constantly changing and the notion they will become Army because players will be able to market themselves seems quite unlikely.  And if it does and Marquette decides that being a university first and basketball school second is more important, huzzah for them.
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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2019, 07:36:52 PM »
Chicos have there been any posts since you’ve returned to that you haven’t replied to?

Yes, most I haven’t replied to.....the vast majority I have not.  Just like most college basketball players aren’t paid.

You seem to be in a broad brush painting mode of late.  My opinion, of course.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2019, 07:45:18 PM »
Title IX is completely irrelevant since all athletes in all sports would be able to partake in selling their likeness.

As for your concern Marquette would become Army football, for your consideration.

Marquette successfully navigated the changing landscape of college athletics in the late 80’s by foregoing major independence and joining the old MCC which at the time was populated by teams such as Xavier, Butler, Loyola, Evansville, St. Louis and Detroit. They did so because there was no future as an independent and conferences had begun being able to work TV deals.

In a stroke of genius/luck, they joined a new league, The Great Midwest a few years later which included Cincinnati who made a Final 4 the year the league was founded.  This in turn lead to Conference USA and a Final 4 bid a decade later and finally an invitation to the Big East.

Not done yet, Marquette along with the Catholic 7 managed to escape Conference USA 2.0 and save the Big East from the Tulanes of the world. While not the Big East of 1985, the league is still one of the best in college basketball and Villanova has won two national titles in the new era.

This brief history lesson tells me Marquette has adapted quite well in a landscape that is constantly changing and the notion they will become Army because players will be able to market themselves seems quite unlikely.  And if it does and Marquette decides that being a university first and basketball school second is more important, huzzah for them.

You are missing some major portions to your analysis and if you don’t think Title IX lawsuits won’t be flying out you are crazy.  It will start with this legal theory....the men’s team is marketed more giving them more access to create a market and thus endorsements....the argument will be to make the marketing equal.

Then it becomes the men’s team plays at the Fiserv, and it isn’t fair they have that advantage for which they can then secure more endorsements by playing in a facility that garners more attention. 

And on and on it will go.  You are also completely ignoring scale here, and I’m not sure why.  Endorsements are about one of two things....one entity paying a ton, or many smaller entities paying a little.  Scale matters.  Big schools, lots of students, big city, public vs private, lots of alums, will matter more than ever.

You say MU has managed well, yes we have done fairly well through some changes in large part because the NCAA and the conferences we were in helped to keep some level of sanity.  It isn’t lost on my team irony that you are also not factoring in the very body you loathe that has helped MU to stay in the relative space they have.  Not lost on me at all.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2019, 07:54:56 PM »
You are missing some major portions to your analysis and if you don’t think Title IX lawsuits won’t be flying out you are crazy.  It will start with this legal theory....the men’s team is marketed more giving them more access to create a market and thus endorsements....the argument will be to make the marketing equal.

Then it becomes the men’s team plays at the Fiserv, and it isn’t fair they have that advantage for which they can then secure more endorsements by playing in a facility that garners more attention. 

And on and on it will go.  You are also completely ignoring scale here, and I’m not sure why.  Endorsements are about one of two things....one entity paying a ton, or many smaller entities paying a little.  Scale matters.  Big schools, lots of students, big city, public vs private, lots of alums, will matter more than ever.

You say MU has managed well, yes we have done fairly well through some changes in large part because the NCAA and the conferences we were in helped to keep some level of sanity.  It isn’t lost on my team irony that you are also not factoring in the very body you loathe that has helped MU to stay in the relative space they have.  Not lost on me at all.


Marquette has stayed in the space they are because of Marquette, not the NCAA.  In fact, it can be argued the NCAA limits what any university can become.

Why aren’t there multiple Title IX lawsuits right now? Marquette men get to play at Fiserv and the women at the Al?  Big East men play their conference tournament at MSG and the women don’t.  That’s not equitable.  What’s the travel budgets?  Are they the same for all sports both genders play?  Title IX is a crutch with no support in this argument.

Also scale is ALREADY in place in college athletics.  There are haves and have nots ALREADY. 

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Boozemon Barro

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2019, 08:26:58 PM »

Marquette has stayed in the space they are because of Marquette, not the NCAA.  In fact, it can be argued the NCAA limits what any university can become.

Why aren’t there multiple Title IX lawsuits right now? Marquette men get to play at Fiserv and the women at the Al?  Big East men play their conference tournament at MSG and the women don’t.  That’s not equitable.  What’s the travel budgets?  Are they the same for all sports both genders play?  Title IX is a crutch with no support in this argument.

Also scale is ALREADY in place in college athletics.  There are haves and have nots ALREADY. 

Amateurism is a sham
You see, the reason there are no Title IX law suits right now is because lawyers are people of honor. As long as the players don't get paid cash, the lawyers are willing to overlook all these obvious and blatant Title IX lawsuits.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2019, 08:27:34 PM »
And then we have Gary Parish’s dripping bias in the article about coaches getting “super duper rich”.  No Gary, a small handful are, the vast majority of the D1 coaches are not....but that’s Gary Parish for you.

From where I stand, every D1 basketball coach is super duper rich. Compared to most Americans all D1 basketball coaches are super duper rich. Compared to most of the world all D1 basketball coaches are richer than God.

You are missing some major portions to your analysis and if you don’t think Title IX lawsuits won’t be flying out you are crazy.  It will start with this legal theory....the men’s team is marketed more giving them more access to create a market and thus endorsements....the argument will be to make the marketing equal.

Then it becomes the men’s team plays at the Fiserv, and it isn’t fair they have that advantage for which they can then secure more endorsements by playing in a facility that garners more attention. 

And on and on it will go.  You are also completely ignoring scale here, and I’m not sure why.  Endorsements are about one of two things....one entity paying a ton, or many smaller entities paying a little.  Scale matters.  Big schools, lots of students, big city, public vs private, lots of alums, will matter more than ever.

I work in Title IX compliance. None of this logic would come close to holding up.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2019, 08:37:34 PM »
Yeah in no way would this be a Title IX issue.  Complete scare tactic.
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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2019, 10:44:38 PM »

Marquette has stayed in the space they are because of Marquette, not the NCAA.  In fact, it can be argued the NCAA limits what any university can become.

Why aren’t there multiple Title IX lawsuits right now? Marquette men get to play at Fiserv and the women at the Al?  Big East men play their conference tournament at MSG and the women don’t.  That’s not equitable.  What’s the travel budgets?  Are they the same for all sports both genders play?  Title IX is a crutch with no support in this argument.

Also scale is ALREADY in place in college athletics.  There are haves and have nots ALREADY. 

Amateurism is a sham

Majorly flawed.  The women today get the same scholarship the men do, they aren’t injured or aggrieved.  That’s why.  You start to change that dynamic, and one side is going to say there is a built in advantage.

More flawed logic by you is totally ignoring the benefits MU gets from being in a conference and the NCAA tournament credit money.  You had more of an argument when MU was an independent, but MU joined a conference for many reasons...scheduling, association with like minded schools, etc....MU receives money when OTHER conference schools make the tournament in addition to years we make it.  We get a cut....more of that socialism in sports that so many of you hate.  If MU merely went on its own and had no benefit from the conference and NCAA then MU should forfeit all those credits....which of course MU shouldn’t because MU benefits from such association.  Benefits!

Scale with 356 DI schools?  LOL.  You don’t understand scale then.  I’m talking hundreds of thousands or north of a million entities...true scale.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 10:59:29 PM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2019, 10:53:21 PM »
From where I stand, every D1 basketball coach is super duper rich. Compared to most Americans all D1 basketball coaches are super duper rich. Compared to most of the world all D1 basketball coaches are richer than God.

I work in Title IX compliance. None of this logic would come close to holding up.

Lol, we’ve all seen how wonderful the sexual assault logic holds up in academia as guys lives have been torched under some of the same Title IX ....so please, anything is possible.

2018 average DI basketball head coaches’ salary is in the $100,000’s range.

https://work.chron.com/average-salary-college-basketball-coach-2102.html


Again, people focus on about 25 to 40 schools and decide to extrapolate to all.....no one should allow that ridiculous extrapolation.  It’s the same BS argument people use about Fortune 100 CEO’s and ignore the 100’s of thousands of other businesses as if they don’t exist and their CEO pay is the same. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2019, 11:35:48 PM »

2018 average DI basketball head coaches’ salary is in the $100,000’s range.

https://work.chron.com/average-salary-college-basketball-coach-2102.html

This is what we call a mathematical impossibility.
If the average D1 head coach's salary were even $200K, that would put the total salary for all D1 coaches at $70.2 million (351 X $200K).
Problem is, the top 70 coaches in the USA salary database earn a combined $183.8 million (and that top 70 doesn't include coaches at several major programs like Marquette, Stanford, Pitt, USC, etc., all of whom earn upwards of $2 million). Heck, if the other 281 head coaches were working for free (note: they're not), the average salary would be above $500K a year.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

Once again, Cheeks, you need to do a better job of vetting your sources.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2019, 11:58:57 PM »
This is what we call a mathematical impossibility.
If the average D1 head coach's salary were even $200K, that would put the total salary for all D1 coaches at $70.2 million (351 X $200K).
Problem is, the top 70 coaches in the USA salary database earn a combined $183.8 million (and that top 70 doesn't include coaches at several major programs like Marquette, Stanford, Pitt, USC, etc., all of whom earn upwards of $2 million). Heck, if the other 281 head coaches were working for free (note: they're not), the average salary would be above $500K a year.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

Once again, Cheeks, you need to do a better job of vetting your sources.

You mean the media got it wrong again?  I really have to stop trusting these journalist# and academics like the PhD that wrote this article.



Edit:  for giggles, about 30% of the NCAA tournament from a few years ago made $500K or less.  Source also USA Today.   https://247sports.com/college/west-virginia/Board/105475/Contents/College-Basketball-Coaches-Salaries-54684326/


I guess that’s super duper rich to some....i could not disagree more depending on family of four and where they live.  I would love to see the data, but I would wager 1/2 of all D1 b-ball coaches make less than $300k in salary from the school as a source.  A far cry from the top guys that so many point to as the “norm”.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 12:14:26 AM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2019, 12:19:45 AM »
You mean the media got it wrong again?  I really have to stop trusting these journalist# and academics like the PhD that wrote this article.

No, Cheeks, the media didn't get it wrong. You got it wrong.
Nowhere in the story you linked does it state "2018 average DI basketball head coaches’ salary is in the $100,000’s range."
That is something you made up because, as happens oddly often for you, you didn't actually read the story you linked.

Likewise, it was you, not the story you linked, that implied that only the top 25 to 40 coaches are rich compared to most Americans. Fact is, well over 70 coaches earn in excess of $1 million a year and the vast majority earn well over six figures. That is, as TAMU said, rich compared to most Americans.