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Author Topic: Real MLB Thread  (Read 42937 times)

MU82

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1275 on: November 07, 2019, 09:19:36 PM »
OF course it is a different narrative, but he is still a first ballot HOFer. 

He is 6th all time in hits.  6th.  In baseball history.  This is a silly discussion.  Only 5 guys in history have more hits and people think he is only good becuase he was a Yankee?  What planet is this. The 5 guys with more hits are Rose, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker. 

 If anything the stupid Yankee narrative makes people overlook what a tremendous hitter he was.  Over a 20 year career he averaged more than 200 hits per 162.  And he hit some HRs, and drove in runs, and stole bases, and walked and hit doubles.  He was a great hitter, and a very complete offensive player at the most important defensive position in the game.

You beat me to it.

In a weird way, he actually is underrated because so many think he is overrated.
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Jockey

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1276 on: November 07, 2019, 09:36:29 PM »
Ok, so is the problem with Jeter that he is more famous because he was on the Yankees?  That is certainly true. 

Molitor is an interesting comparison.  Another first ballot HOF player, and a great hitter, and a long and distinguished career.  He also had the exact same career OPS as Jeter.  And if you want to talk defense, the plurality of Molitor's games were played as  DH.  So Jeter had basically the same offensive output as a guy that played almost 1200 of his games as a DH.  Even if he was a below average SS, that is still adding more value than a guy playing DH and putting up the same numbers.  To me, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare guys that aren't middle infielders to the middle infielders.  Molitor player a little middle infield, but was quickly moved to 3rd, then of, then DH.  That doesn't scream plus defender to me.

Jeter is also likely more revered because he was the catalyst to a team that played in 7 World Series and won 5 of them.  That certainly adds to his legend and the reverence he is given. 

It is completely true that being on MLB's marquee franchise adds to his legend.  But he is a legend regardless.

I think we ALL agree that Jeter is a HoF’er.

Many also think he would not be a legend if he had played for KC, Miami, SD, etc.

buckchuckler

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1277 on: November 08, 2019, 09:28:00 AM »
I think we ALL agree that Jeter is a HoF’er.

Many also think he would not be a legend if he had played for KC, Miami, SD, etc.

Maybe my issue comes from mis-remembering.  I was a kid, but I remember guys like Molitor, Yount, Brett and Gwynn being completely revered for their hitting prowess.  At the time they played, and after.  I think their legends have dissipated a little, but it is probably just because they are more removed from their playing careers.  Gwynn may be a little more of an exception as his legend still seems to loom pretty largely.  But those guys, along with Wade Boggs, were the elite names of guys that held that "pure hitter" mantle through out the 80s and early 90's ( I know Brett was also in the 70s, but I wasn't alive so I can't attest to anything there).

Maybe another reason why their aura's are fading a bit is the trend in baseball and stats away from batting average.  For all those guys above, hitting was their strength.  Just pure hitting ability.  Now, it seems that no one cares if a guys hits .315, all that matters in walking 80+ times, regardless of how many hits a guy accumulates. 
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Pakuni

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1278 on: November 12, 2019, 03:20:44 PM »

JuniorCardigan

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1279 on: November 12, 2019, 03:56:09 PM »
Ruh-roh.
Astros used an outfield camera in 2017 to steal signs.

https://theathletic.com/1363451/2019/11/12/the-astros-stole-signs-electronically-in-2017-part-of-a-much-broader-issue-for-major-league-baseball/

...and nobody was surprised. It was so blatant in one game that Danny Farquhar (pitcher for the White Sox at the time) had to step off the mound to switch signs with his catcher. Pretty good breakdown of it here:

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1194348775965437952

Imagine having to steal signs from the 2017 White Sox.

tower912

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1280 on: November 12, 2019, 04:03:10 PM »
It was commented on during the playoff broadcasts that opposing catchers were going through their routines with no one on base the same way they would if there was a runner on second.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

PTM

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1281 on: November 12, 2019, 06:13:34 PM »
Astros are a sham and should have their world series stripped.
New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new

buckchuckler

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1282 on: November 13, 2019, 08:56:02 AM »
Astros are a sham and should have their world series stripped.

The Red Sox were caught doing something similar a couple years ago, and if I remember correctly,  Manfred promised real consequences if it happened again.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1283 on: November 13, 2019, 09:16:08 AM »
No one is getting their Series stripped.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

WI inferiority Complexes

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1284 on: November 13, 2019, 09:18:48 AM »
Astros are a sham and should have their world series stripped.

Correct.  And the only just thing to do is to award the '17 Series Championship to the winners the previous season.  So, congratulations to the back-to-back World Series Champion 2017 Chicago Cubs!

PTM

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1285 on: November 13, 2019, 09:27:58 AM »
Correct.  And the only just thing to do is to award the '17 Series Championship to the winners the previous season.  So, congratulations to the back-to-back World Series Champion 2017 Chicago Cubs!

Most logical.
New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new

CreightonWarrior

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1286 on: November 13, 2019, 03:11:52 PM »
Doesn't sound like the Giants are too thrilled about their new manager.

Pakuni

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1287 on: November 13, 2019, 03:41:01 PM »
Doesn't sound like the Giants are too thrilled about their new manager.

Maybe they know some guys on the Phillies.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1288 on: November 14, 2019, 07:59:44 PM »
As expectected, Bellinger and Trout win MVPs

MU82

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1289 on: November 14, 2019, 09:37:23 PM »
As expectected, Bellinger and Trout win MVPs

It's bad enough giving MVP to a guy on a team that never sniffs being in contention all season, but now he gets it even if he can't play the last month of another lost season?

I appreciate how supremely talented Trout is. Who knows? Maybe by the time he's done he's one of the top 5 players in the history of baseball. But if you're gonna give it to a guy who plays 5 months for a crap team, change the name of the award to something like the Willie Mays Player of the Year Award.

Because these last few years, Trout has been no more "valuable" in helping his team contend for anything that matters than you or I have been.
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Cheeks

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1290 on: November 14, 2019, 09:59:15 PM »
It's bad enough giving MVP to a guy on a team that never sniffs being in contention all season, but now he gets it even if he can't play the last month of another lost season?

I appreciate how supremely talented Trout is. Who knows? Maybe by the time he's done he's one of the top 5 players in the history of baseball. But if you're gonna give it to a guy who plays 5 months for a crap team, change the name of the award to something like the Willie Mays Player of the Year Award.

Because these last few years, Trout has been no more "valuable" in helping his team contend for anything that matters than you or I have been.

LOL.

Mike Trout, best player on planet. Period. 

Turn in your Erin Andrews card with the drivel above you wrote.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:14:34 PM by Cheeks »
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MU82

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1291 on: November 14, 2019, 10:07:03 PM »
LOL.

Mike Trout, best player on planet. Period. 

Turn in your Erin Andrews cars with the drivel above you wrote.

Your second sentence ... huh?

As for Trout's status of greatness, I said nothing different. In fact, I said he could end up being one of the 5 best players of all-time.

But he is so "valuable" to the Angels that they might never be able to contend without him. Oh wait ...
"Turn in your Erin Andrews cars with the drivel above you wrote."

-- hoopaloop

Cheeks

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1292 on: November 14, 2019, 10:14:13 PM »
Your second sentence ... huh?

As for Trout's status of greatness, I said nothing different. In fact, I said he could end up being one of the 5 best players of all-time.

But he is so "valuable" to the Angels that they might never be able to contend without him. Oh wait ...

Allegedly you were a baseball writer at one point in time.

Tell me, how much one position player can do if the pitching staff is horrible and the surrounding position players are mostly average?

Have you seen the number lately of MVPs in baseball that didn’t make the playoffs?  I realize back in your day it was sacrilege to have someone be MVP and not be on a contending team until Dawson.  That has changed...as it should.

Did you ever take a moment to think without him how much worse that team would be?  If you were to start a team today, who is the first pick?  That’s your MVP...glad I am 10 minutes away to see him play so often.  Hopefully the team shores up the pitching to help him out, and yes he is the most valuable player in baseball bar none.
Idaho, birthplace of Television.

MU82

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1293 on: November 14, 2019, 10:34:12 PM »
Allegedly you were a baseball writer at one point in time.

Tell me, how much one position player can do if the pitching staff is horrible and the surrounding position players are mostly average?

Have you seen the number lately of MVPs in baseball that didn’t make the playoffs?  I realize back in your day it was sacrilege to have someone be MVP and not be on a contending team until Dawson.  That has changed...as it should.

Did you ever take a moment to think without him how much worse that team would be?  If you were to start a team today, who is the first pick?  That’s your MVP...glad I am 10 minutes away to see him play so often.  Hopefully the team shores up the pitching to help him out, and yes he is the most valuable player in baseball bar none.

I happen to disagree that the MVP should come from a team that is 1,000 games out of first place at the end of April.

It goes to how I define value. Others obviously define it differently, because the star of a team that finishes 1,000 games out of first place every year keeps winning it. Voters are given great latitude in how they define "valuable," and I wouldn't have it any other way. I just happen to disagree with them.

When was the last time Mike Trout played a "pressure game"? When was the last time he had to come through in the clutch to keep his team in the pennant race? I think it matters that for years not a single at-bat Trout has had after the All-Star break has mattered for the Angels in the standings. It is "easier" to hit when facing zero pressure.

I know it's not his fault that he hasn't had a pressure game in 5 years. I happen to think he is a transcendent player and I would love to see how he would do when the pressure's on. In the very small sample size we have so far -- the 2014 ALDS -- he was 1-for-12 for a team that got swept. I don't think that "defines" him any more than Ted Williams' poor postseason numbers define him; I just wish we got to see how he'd perform when everything's on the line.

Obviously, MVP voters don't think it makes a difference. This year, he barely even played in September and he still got the award. Thinking about it now, I guess that makes sense given that he hasn't had an important September at-bat in years and years.

Finally, I haven't insulted you at all in this discussion but you revealed your character yet again. You even brought out your weird and tired Erin Andrews compulsion with a totally nonsensical statement.

Have a lovely evening.
"Turn in your Erin Andrews cars with the drivel above you wrote."

-- hoopaloop

Lennys Tap

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1294 on: November 15, 2019, 09:07:20 AM »
Your second sentence ... huh?

As for Trout's status of greatness, I said nothing different. In fact, I said he could end up being one of the 5 best players of all-time.

But he is so "valuable" to the Angels that they might never be able to contend without him. Oh wait ...

I love saber metrics, advanced stats, etc. They're generally much better at determining a player's value than traditional  (batting average, rbis, wins, etc.) statistics. That said, I think just giving the MVP to the player with the highest WAR is ridiculous. I think there is real value (and pressure) involved in being the leader of a team that actually accomplishes something. Most valuable is not synonymous with "best". But arguing with people who don't understand that is fruitless.

CTWarrior

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1295 on: November 15, 2019, 11:43:27 AM »
I love saber metrics, advanced stats, etc. They're generally much better at determining a player's value than traditional  (batting average, rbis, wins, etc.) statistics. That said, I think just giving the MVP to the player with the highest WAR is ridiculous. I think there is real value (and pressure) involved in being the leader of a team that actually accomplishes something. Most valuable is not synonymous with "best". But arguing with people who don't understand that is fruitless.
If Trout (or anybody) is head and shoulders above everybody else I could see voting for him even though he is on a bad team.  This year the difference between Trout and Bregman was small enough that I would have given it to the guy who finished the season and made the playoffs.  Not going to lose any sleep over it, however, as Trout was tremendous this year.

Most valuable is tough to quantify because I think the Astros still would have won the division with an average third baseman.
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buckchuckler

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1296 on: November 15, 2019, 02:21:28 PM »
If Trout (or anybody) is head and shoulders above everybody else I could see voting for him even though he is on a bad team.  This year the difference between Trout and Bregman was small enough that I would have given it to the guy who finished the season and made the playoffs.  Not going to lose any sleep over it, however, as Trout was tremendous this year.

Most valuable is tough to quantify because I think the Astros still would have won the division with an average third baseman.

Well, and you have to account for Bregman's numbers being artificially inflated because he knew what pitches were coming. 
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GarciasWorld

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1297 on: November 15, 2019, 04:30:25 PM »
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristianYelich/status/1195462269594812417

Yeli just absolutely owned Yu.

Also, the person who originally made the claim needs to learn positions on a baseball field before he makes claims of Yeli stealing signs.

1) Yeli looks out to right field.
2) The camera immediately changes to the wide view and Yu is already off the rubber, so clearly he didn’t step off as a result of seeing Yeli’s eyes look for a signal from...
3) The Cubs, not Brewers, bullpen is in right field. So the Cubs bullpen is giving Yeli signals? Awesome. No wonder they stunk this year.

JWags85

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1298 on: November 15, 2019, 04:46:15 PM »
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristianYelich/status/1195462269594812417

Yeli just absolutely owned Yu.

Also, the person who originally made the claim needs to learn positions on a baseball field before he makes claims of Yeli stealing signs.

1) Yeli looks out to right field.
2) The camera immediately changes to the wide view and Yu is already off the rubber, so clearly he didn’t step off as a result of seeing Yeli’s eyes look for a signal from...
3) The Cubs, not Brewers, bullpen is in right field. So the Cubs bullpen is giving Yeli signals? Awesome. No wonder they stunk this year.

To be fair, this is Bleacher Nation and this Spencer clown trying to start something.  Yeli focused on the wrong tweet, cause Darvish literally says it doesnt mean the Brewers are stealing signs.  Just explained why he stepped off.  Was ready to groan at Darvish being salty, but at worst it comes off as clumsily worded from an ESL tweeter.

GarciasWorld

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #1299 on: November 15, 2019, 05:13:31 PM »
To be fair, this is Bleacher Nation and this Spencer clown trying to start something.  Yeli focused on the wrong tweet, cause Darvish literally says it doesnt mean the Brewers are stealing signs.  Just explained why he stepped off.  Was ready to groan at Darvish being salty, but at worst it comes off as clumsily worded from an ESL tweeter.

Ny problem is more with the original Tweet. But really to Yu’s response? So you were looking into Yeli’s eyes rather than at your catcher’s signs? It’s not like Yeli cranked his head around. And by the time the camera angle switches back, which is a millisecond after Yeli’s eyes shift to RIGHT field, Yu’s already off the rubber. I find it impossibly hard to believe 1) Yu saw Yeli’s eyes shift and 2) Yu stepped off at the exact same time as a result. But maybe.

The whole thing is hilarious. Every team at least tries to steal signs. But one thing I know for sure is teams aren’t stealing signs by looking into their opponent’s bullpen. I’m very confident saying that.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 05:16:17 PM by GarciasWorld »