Real MLB Thread

[MU82]

Mike, I'd like to believe you were better than weak trolls that were barely amusing the first time, but I guess I'm wrong.  Pander to low hanging fruit i suppose.

Chapman and Arenado win again at 3B.  Short of some absolutely transcendent young talent appearing or injury, hard to see anyone else winning GGs at 3rd over the next 4-5 years.

C'mon Wags ... just having some fun.

Agree about 3B GGs.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Ryan M. Spaeder
@theaceofspaeder

Two ballplayers who will be on the Hall of Fame Ballot:
Derek Jeter (1st):
.310/.377/.440
72.4 rWAR | 73.0 fWAR
115 OPS+
119 wRC+
.360 wOBA
5 Gold Gloves (-243.3 DRS)

Larry Walker (10th):
.313/.400./565
72.7 rWAR | 68.7 fWAR
141 OPS+
140 wRC+
.412 wOBA
7 Gold Gloves (93.9 DRS)

[buckchuckler]

Ryan M. Spaeder
@theaceofspaeder

Two ballplayers who will be on the Hall of Fame Ballot:
Derek Jeter (1st):
.310/.377/.440
72.4 rWAR | 73.0 fWAR
115 OPS+
119 wRC+
.360 wOBA
5 Gold Gloves (-243.3 DRS)

Larry Walker (10th):
.313/.400./565
72.7 rWAR | 68.7 fWAR
141 OPS+
140 wRC+
.412 wOBA
7 Gold Gloves (93.9 DRS)

So, I think Walker should get in, but this comparison is ridiculous.  In what world are a SS, and a corner OF who played 10 seasons in Colorado legitimate comps?  Also only showing the ratios is only part of the picture.  I believe that Jeter was the youngest player ever to reach 3000 hits. 

[MU82]

Jeter is a no-brainer. Walker is borderline, which is why he can't get 75% of the vote.

Agree with buck that they are not comparable players.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

So, I think Walker should get in, but this comparison is ridiculous.  In what world are a SS, and a corner OF who played 10 seasons in Colorado legitimate comps?  Also only showing the ratios is only part of the picture.  I believe that Jeter was the youngest player ever to reach 3000 hits.

It just came on my Twitter feed, and I thought it was interesting.  I think Jeter is a HOF because he's extremely famous, and that is what the "Hall is of."

For the sake of argument, Jeter is the 4th youngest to get to 3k, (two weeks older than Yount was; 8 days younger than Pete Rose was) and OPS+ is supposed to factor in the ballpark, (the Rockies have been around for 25 years now; somebody's going to have to make it in).

[MU82]

It just came on my Twitter feed, and I thought it was interesting.  I think Jeter is a HOF because he's extremely famous, and that is what the "Hall is of."

For the sake of argument, Jeter is the 4th youngest to get to 3k, (two weeks older than Yount was; 8 days younger than Pete Rose was) and OPS+ is supposed to factor in the ballpark, (the Rockies have been around for 25 years now; somebody's going to have to make it in).

The fact that Jeter played in NY and is "extremely famous" no doubt helps him.

But he also had outstanding career stats, especially for a shortstop. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 8 times. And he was an instrumental contributor to 5 championship teams.

A no-brainer.

If you feel that Larry Walker also deserves HoF status, that's cool. A strong argument certainly could be made for him. But it doesn't really help his case to compare him to Jeter IMHO.

[Jockey]

The fact that Jeter played in NY and is "extremely famous" no doubt helps him.

But he also had outstanding career stats, especially for a shortstop. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 8 times. And he was an instrumental contributor to 5 championship teams.

A no-brainer.

If you feel that Larry Walker also deserves HoF status, that's cool. A strong argument certainly could be made for him. But it doesn't really help his case to compare him to Jeter IMHO.

Just my opinion, but Walker would already be in the HoF if he had never played in Colorado.

First 5 years of careers?
Jeter 23.5 WAR
Walker 22.2 WAR as an Expo (no Coors inflated stats)

Yankee stadium is also a better hitters park than Olympic stadium in Montreal.

Walker was an outstanding defender his entire career. Jeter was a bad defender the latter half of his career.

Playing in Coors has kept voters from electing Walker.

[MU82]

Just my opinion, but Walker would already be in the HoF if he had never played in Colorado.

First 5 years of careers?
Jeter 23.5 WAR
Walker 22.2 WAR as an Expo (no Coors inflated stats)

Yankee stadium is also a better hitters park than Olympic stadium in Montreal.

Walker was an outstanding defender his entire career. Jeter was a bad defender the latter half of his career.

Playing in Coors has kept voters from electing Walker.

That could be true.

[Jockey]

That could be true.

Just my opinion. Baseball is the most fun of any sport to argue about due to its long history and myriad of stats.

[MU82]

Just my opinion. Baseball is the most fun of any sport to argue about due to its long history and myriad of stats.

When we were in college, one of the many reasons my buddies and I used to go to Midget Tap was because the owner, Frank, kept a Baseball Encyclopedia behind the bar. Settled many arguments in the era looooong before the googles existed.

But yeah, I agree. One can imagine Lou Gehrig, Bob Feller and Willie Mays still being superstars today. Harder to imagine Hopalong Cassidy and Bill Bradley being superstars today in their respective sports.

When discussing best ballplayer ever, if it comes down to, say, Ruth, Aaron, Williams, Mays and Bonds, I usually counter with ... "Oh, how many consecutive scoreless innings in the World Series did Aaron, Williams, Mays and Bonds pitch?" It's incredible to think that Babe was considered more valuable as a pitcher early in his career!

[WI inferiority Complexes]

The fact that Jeter played in NY and is "extremely famous" no doubt helps him.

But he also had outstanding career stats, especially for a shortstop. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 8 times. And he was an instrumental contributor to 5 championship teams.

A no-brainer.

If you feel that Larry Walker also deserves HoF status, that's cool. A strong argument certainly could be made for him. But it doesn't really help his case to compare him to Jeter IMHO.

The only time Top 10 MVP finishes are discussed is when the player never won the award.  Larry Walker was an actual MVP in 1997. 

[Silent Verbal]

Walker played parts of 17 seasons in the bigs.  Only 4 times did he play more than 140 games.  Old stats, newer “advanced” stats, whatever.  You need to be an everyday player more than 4 times in your career to make it into the HOF.

[Jockey]

Walker played parts of 17 seasons in the bigs.  Only 4 times did he play more than 140 games.  Old stats, newer “advanced” stats, whatever.  You need to be an everyday player more than 4 times in your career to make it into the HOF.

He had 6 more seasons with at least 130 games.

Should we kick Koufax out of the HoF. He only had 4 seasons with 28 or more starts.

[MU82]

The only time Top 10 MVP finishes are discussed is when the player never won the award. 

That is absolutely not true.

I clearly remember one of the arguments for Jim Rice was "He finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 6 times, including winning the MVP in 1978." Similar arguments for Frank Thomas, who won the award twice.

That a shortstop finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 8 times is effen amazing. It goes to a consistency of excellent play, compared to his peers, over a long stretch of time. Add in his play in helping his team win championships, as well as his accumulated stats ... again, it's a no-brainer. He will be a first-ballot HoFer, and he should be.

Again, I'm not arguing against Walker. He's a borderline case, and arguments can be made for him. He and Jeter simply aren't comps. You might as well be comparing Walker to a pitcher.

He had 6 more seasons with at least 130 games.

Should we kick Koufax out of the HoF. He only had 4 seasons with 28 or more starts.

I understand what you're saying here, but there are many HoF hitters who consider Koufax the greatest pitcher who ever lived. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many HoF pitchers who consider Larry Walker the greatest hitter who ever lived.

[Jockey]

I didn’t mean to compare Walker to Koufax. Sandy was surely the greatest pitcher that I ever saw. I was just making a point.

Incidentally, all those complainers about “soft” pitchers of today only need to look at Koufax / Drysdale to see what happens when pitchers are abused.

[buckchuckler]

The only time Top 10 MVP finishes are discussed is when the player never won the award.  Larry Walker was an actual MVP in 1997.

1 time MVP is a ticket to the HOF?  Someone should tell Dale Murphy.

[MU82]

I didn’t mean to compare Walker to Koufax. Sandy was surely the greatest pitcher that I ever saw. I was just making a point.

Incidentally, all those complainers about “soft” pitchers of today only need to look at Koufax / Drysdale to see what happens when pitchers are abused.

Yeah, I know you weren't comparing them, brand. Sorry if it appears I suggest you were.

Good point about the "soft" pitchers. The thing that gets some of us is when even the coddled pitchers break down. There is probably some happy medium, but I obviously don't know what it is. In the end, each pitcher is different. Some, for whatever reason, can be "workhorses," while some will never be more than 5-inning guys who need extra days of rest.

I will say that it's a lot harder to whine about the Nats' coddling of Strasburg early in his career after what he did this past October. He was everything they dreamed he would be the day they drafted him. Strasburg probably didn't like it way back when, but he is now a WS champion and is about to become one of the highest paid athletes in sports history.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

1 time MVP is a ticket to the HOF?  Someone should tell Dale Murphy.

Of course not, (unless they want to open up a "Justin Morneau Wing" of Cooperstown).

Again, I absolutely think Jeter is a HOfer.  However, I disagree with the idea he is head-and-shoulders above Walker.  Merely pointing out Jeter was never deemed the best player in the league, (and Walker was once).

[JWags85]

Of course not, (unless they want to open up a "Justin Morneau Wing" of Cooperstown).

Again, I absolutely think Jeter is a HOfer.  However, I disagree with the idea he is head-and-shoulders above Walker.  Merely pointing out Jeter was never deemed the best player in the league, (and Walker was once).

Jeter is the most overrated “great” player of my lifetime, IMO. A really good player who never had serious injury and played for the most iconic team in the biggest market during their best stretch since the 50s, which made him iconic.  He doesn’t win a single Silver Slugger if A Rod doesn’t come to the Yankees and move positions, IMO. He hit for gold average but not much else.  There is also a good chance that he’s the only SS (besides A Rod) of that late 90s-2000s era to make the HOF, especially from the AL. Just wasn’t a lot of transcendent talent at the position during the time, which made him elevate in comparisons. If Jeter has his career (stats, not rings) for the Royals or the Padres, it’s a diff narrative IMO

[RJax55]

Jeter is the most overrated “great” player of my lifetime, IMO. A really good player who never had serious injury and played for the most iconic team in the biggest market during their best stretch since the 50s, which made him iconic.  He doesn’t win a single Silver Slugger if A Rod doesn’t come to the Yankees and move positions, IMO. He hit for gold average but not much else.  There is also a good chance that he’s the only SS (besides A Rod) of that late 90s-2000s era to make the HOF, especially from the AL. Just wasn’t a lot of transcendent talent at the position during the time, which made him elevate in comparisons. If Jeter has his career (stats, not rings) for the Royals or the Padres, it’s a diff narrative IMO

Here's some interesting Jeter stats/numbers/accomplishments: https://www.espn.com/blog/jayson-stark/post/_/id/952/ten-astounding-derek-jeter-numbers

I'm torn on Jeter. I agree with you, that playing in the NYC spotlight and on those 90s Yankee teams was a significant advantage. That said, the guy did put up some amazing numbers, in company with the all-time greats of the game.

[buckchuckler]

Jeter is the most overrated “great” player of my lifetime, IMO. A really good player who never had serious injury and played for the most iconic team in the biggest market during their best stretch since the 50s, which made him iconic.  He doesn’t win a single Silver Slugger if A Rod doesn’t come to the Yankees and move positions, IMO. He hit for gold average but not much else.  There is also a good chance that he’s the only SS (besides A Rod) of that late 90s-2000s era to make the HOF, especially from the AL. Just wasn’t a lot of transcendent talent at the position during the time, which made him elevate in comparisons. If Jeter has his career (stats, not rings) for the Royals or the Padres, it’s a diff narrative IMO

OF course it is a different narrative, but he is still a first ballot HOFer. 

He is 6th all time in hits.  6th.  In baseball history.  This is a silly discussion.  Only 5 guys in history have more hits and people think he is only good becuase he was a Yankee?  What planet is this. The 5 guys with more hits are Rose, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker. 

 If anything the stupid Yankee narrative makes people overlook what a tremendous hitter he was.  Over a 20 year career he averaged more than 200 hits per 162.  And he hit some HRs, and drove in runs, and stole bases, and walked and hit doubles.  He was a great hitter, and a very complete offensive player at the most important defensive position in the game. 

[JWags85]

OF course it is a different narrative, but he is still a first ballot HOFer. 

He is 6th all time in hits.  6th.  In baseball history.  This is a silly discussion.  Only 5 guys in history have more hits and people think he is only good becuase he was a Yankee?  What planet is this. The 5 guys with more hits are Rose, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker. 

 If anything the stupid Yankee narrative makes people overlook what a tremendous hitter he was.  Over a 20 year career he averaged more than 200 hits per 162.  And he hit some HRs, and drove in runs, and stole bases, and walked and hit doubles.  He was a great hitter, and a very complete offensive player at the most important defensive position in the game.

Where did I ever say he was only good cause he was a Yankee?  Or that he wasn't a HOF player? 

Paul Molitor has 100ish less hits than him, but had 400 less ABs.  Also hit 50 more doubles and 50 more triples over his career and stole way more bases.  Of course Molitor is a first ballot HOF as well, but he's not talked about in the hushed tones Jeter is.

And you wanna talk defense?  Look up Jeter in any advanced metric for defense and he ranged from average to pretty bad. His UZR and Defensive WAR are terrible, even for a SS.  He won Gold Gloves cause he was the shortstop for the mighty Yankees and cause he wasn't a habitual ground ball booter.  But his range and arm were always mediocre. 

[WI inferiority Complexes]

I didn't mean to start anything.  I actually really like Derek Jeter.

[Jockey]

I didn't mean to start anything.  I actually really like Derek Jeter.

I appreciate that you brought up the subject. It’s been a very good discussion.

Baseball is always fun to talk/argue about.

[buckchuckler]

Where did I ever say he was only good cause he was a Yankee?  Or that he wasn't a HOF player? 

Paul Molitor has 100ish less hits than him, but had 400 less ABs.  Also hit 50 more doubles and 50 more triples over his career and stole way more bases.  Of course Molitor is a first ballot HOF as well, but he's not talked about in the hust tones Jeter is.

And you wanna talk defense?  Look up Jeter in any advanced metric for defense and he ranged from average to pretty bad. His UZR and Defensive WAR are terrible, even for a SS.  He won Gold Gloves cause he was the shortstop for the mighty Yankees and cause he wasn't a habitual ground ball booter.  But his range and arm were always mediocre.

Ok, so is the problem with Jeter that he is more famous because he was on the Yankees?  That is certainly true. 

Molitor is an interesting comparison.  Another first ballot HOF player, and a great hitter, and a long and distinguished career.  He also had the exact same career OPS as Jeter.  And if you want to talk defense, the plurality of Molitor's games were played as  DH.  So Jeter had basically the same offensive output as a guy that played almost 1200 of his games as a DH.  Even if he was a below average SS, that is still adding more value than a guy playing DH and putting up the same numbers.  To me, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare guys that aren't middle infielders to the middle infielders.  Molitor player a little middle infield, but was quickly moved to 3rd, then of, then DH.  That doesn't scream plus defender to me.

Jeter is also likely more revered because he was the catalyst to a team that played in 7 World Series and won 5 of them.  That certainly adds to his legend and the reverence he is given. 

It is completely true that being on MLB's marquee franchise adds to his legend.  But he is a legend regardless.