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Author Topic: Athletic story on Sam's departure  (Read 21080 times)

brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2019, 01:13:32 PM »
And this is the pretzel logic I mention.
The article repeatedly says the risk was worsening the injury or causing one more serious. It even cites the Bonzie Colson case as an example of what was at risk. the fact is Sam didn't worsen the injury or suffer a more serious one.
It says not one word about how delaying the surgery would impact Sam's 2018-19. You are squinting very hard to make that inference in order to defend what remains a very bad article.

You're being ridiculous. If it's pretzel logic to go from "potential for long-term damage" to "impact Sam's 2018-19" (literally an example of long-term) then you must only be familiar with one type of pretzel:

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Gato78

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2019, 01:14:13 PM »
How does this take on Sam's injury square with how Wojo handled Greg Elliott's thumb last season? To think Wojo played Sam when he shouldn't is ridiculous and contrary to the evidence in plain view.

brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2019, 01:20:40 PM »
If anyone really believes that I would hope that they re-evaluate their fandom.  As much as I love winning, I would never want a player risking their long term health in an attempt to win a basketball game.  The only recent instance I can think of where this actually happened was when Carlino got his concussion against Nova and came back into the game.  Iirc Wojo took quite a bit of criticism for that decision on here, and deservedly so.  As TT points out, Wojo pulled Markus against Gtown, as well as against CU two years ago when he was hurt.  Wojo probably didn't handle the whole Hauser situation perfectly (again, we don't have all the facts but it's safe to assume he shares some of the blame), but I very much doubt that he would play him or anyone if a doctor told him that they were at serious risk.

Maybe the doctors said there wasn't a serious lifelong risk. That doesn't mean immediate rehab in Sam's or Markus' case wouldn't improve their outcomes in the medium term or the next year. That doesn't mean that their efficacy as players wasn't harmed by continuing to play when they were clearly not 100%.

I don't think anyone can begin to argue that Sam wasn't 100% at the end of 2018 or that Markus wasn't 100% at the end of 2019. I fully believe that those two instances are completely indisputable. Watching them on the court, the numbers they put up, the efficiency with which they played, there's zero doubt both players were lessor because of the injuries they sustained. Maybe sitting out in those cases wouldn't have led to further damage later in life, but that doesn't mean they were able to rehab as quickly or effectively and it doesn't mean that the team wasn't hampered because those guys weren't at 100%.

Like I said, maybe it's just coincidence. That's what I'm hoping is the case. But it's not unfathomable that a coach under pressure to win after 4 and now 5 years with zero NCAA wins might not be willing to hope his best players can gut out a big performance in the now rather than considering what impact it might have 8-12 months from now.
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Pakuni

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2019, 01:21:22 PM »
You're being ridiculous. If it's pretzel logic to go from "potential for long-term damage" to "impact Sam's 2018-19" (literally an example of long-term) then you must only be familiar with one type of pretzel:

Like look at Brew computing how Sam's comments reinforce the bad PT article.


brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2019, 01:25:37 PM »
How does this take on Sam's injury square with how Wojo handled Greg Elliott's thumb last season? To think Wojo played Sam when he shouldn't is ridiculous and contrary to the evidence in plain view.

Not necessarily. Consider Miracle. Doc tells Herb that there's no risk of further injury in the moment. Because they were only playing for the moment (do or die tournament) Herb opted to keep playing his guy because the moment was what was important. If there was a risk of further injury, he would've sat him.

Now consider Greg and Sam. Maybe there was immediate further risk if Greg comes back or keeps playing. Maybe for Sam there was no immediate further risk. But just because the injury wasn't going to get worse in the moment doesn't mean it might not delay rehab and worsen outcomes in the future.

Also, and maybe I'll get more flack for this, I find it almost completely implausible that playing someone who is demonstrably injured doesn't increase the risk of other unrelated injuries. If you are compensating for one injury, that is naturally going to place further stress on the other parts of your body that will inevitably be put under greater than usual stress due to that compensation. Maybe sometimes it won't matter, like in the case of a wrist (Markus) that isn't often a load-bearing appendage. But maybe sometimes it will. Playing on an injured knee could certainly increase stress to the opposing knee, back, or any number of other parts of the body.
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brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2019, 01:26:49 PM »
Like look at Brew computing how Sam's comments reinforce the bad PT article.

It's literally a straight line. There's not even a fork in the road. Your own post proves it. But keep twisting.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2019, 01:27:28 PM »
If you only play players when they're 100% Cam would have been going up against Ja.  I can fully guarantee that match-up would not have ended well.  Playing at less than 100% and playing with potentially life-long impacts are miles apart.   

Pakuni

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2019, 01:38:03 PM »
It's literally a straight line. There's not even a fork in the road. Your own post proves it. But keep twisting.

OK, I'll say it one more time and drop it.
The PT story was 100 percent about Sam risking a new injury or worsening the injury. It said nothing about the rehab or its impact on his offseason.
Sam's comments to The Athletic were 100 percent about rehabbing an injury that was neither new nor worsened by him continuing to play. He said nothing about a new injury or it being made worse by playing.
They in no way reinforce the PT story.
You're connecting dots that don't exist.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 01:39:36 PM by Pakuni »

skianth16

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2019, 01:56:14 PM »
No offense to Sam, because I enjoyed him as a player, but this seems like a pretty weak excuse.  Didn't he say multiple times that he would be/was 100% by the time the season started?  If Markus doesn't have as good of a year next year as we're all hoping and comes out and says that it would have been better if he could have had an entire off-season with a healthy wrist, many of the Markus haters here would absolutely blast him.

I think this is less an excuse and more a way to justify and/or find a silver lining in having to sit a year at a point in his career when most players wouldn't be willing to do so.

And a sidenote - I don't think there are any Markus haters on this board. There are people who get frustrated at times (mostly due to having extremely high expectations), but I don't think anyone could actually be classified as a hater.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2019, 01:59:04 PM »
And a sidenote - I don't think there are any Markus haters on this board. There are people who get frustrated at times (mostly due to having extremely high expectations), but I don't think anyone could actually be classified as a hater.

Most are not Markus haters. There are definitely a handful.
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brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2019, 02:07:02 PM »
OK, I'll say it one more time and drop it.
The PT story was 100 percent about Sam risking a new injury or worsening the injury. It said nothing about the rehab or its impact on his offseason.
Sam's comments to The Athletic were 100 percent about rehabbing an injury that was neither new nor worsened by him continuing to play. He said nothing about a new injury or it being made worse by playing.
They in no way reinforce the PT story.
You're connecting dots that don't exist.

You literally quoted "long term". You put two dots on a piece of paper and can't figure out how to connect them.

Clearly you didn't read the article. Paragraph 1 talks about the timetable of recovery being 4-5 months. Paragraph 6 talks about the NIT games not mattering to this season and Sam's importance to the next year and Wojo's future. Paragraph 14 talks about the potential for long term damage, which you cited. And the final paragraph talks about the what if of this situation happening again in the future.

The article repeatedly talks about the potential impact beyond 2018. Honestly, the entire pretense is that those games in 2018 weren't important enough to risk that future. Any other reading is grossly inaccurate.
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wadesworld

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2019, 02:55:09 PM »
What Sam suffered from was this: an inability to create his own shot.

Sam could’ve had surgery on his hip in April of 2017, not played the entire 2017-2018 season, and had a full offseason of work going into the 2018-2019 season and guess what? Sam still wouldn’t be able to create his own shot.

And now the coaching staff should not play any player that is not 100% fully healthy down the stretch of a season? If that’s the case, we’re going to be forfeiting a LOT of basketball games.
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Pakuni

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2019, 02:58:43 PM »
What Sam suffered from was this: an inability to create his own shot.

Sam could’ve had surgery on his hip in April of 2017, not played the entire 2017-2018 season, and had a full offseason of work going into the 2018-2019 season and guess what? Sam still wouldn’t be able to create his own shot.

And now the coaching staff should not play any player that is not 100% fully healthy down the stretch of a season? If that’s the case, we’re going to be forfeiting a LOT of basketball games.

Better to sit out games in March than workouts in July. Duh.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2019, 03:53:11 PM »
We now have two instances where not resting a clearly injured star player may have led to a worse long term outcome. Sam wasn't 100% and seems to believe he never fully recovered. Markus wasn't 100% and couldn't sustain his play last year after the injury. Maybe it's coincidence. Maybe it's an indicator of a staff willing to take chances to get results.


Or maybe it's an indicator that college kids get hurt playing basketball and oftentimes try to play through the injuries.  It's not unique to Marquette and isn't unique to Wojo.
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brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2019, 04:14:55 PM »
In case there was any question as to Paint Touches intent... https://twitter.com/painttouches/status/1151210021046427649?s=21
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BallBoy

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2019, 04:18:26 PM »
Sam seems a bit salty.

Sitting in his basement for an interview in central Wisconsin, talking about some of that backlash, Sam Hauser can only shake his head: “My opinion is that you should probably just say, ‘Congratulations,’ and not, ‘Congrats, but why didn’t you go here or here?’ I wish people could just leave it there. It’s like, I’m sorry, but your opinion was not in my head when I was making this decision. I’m not too worried about what people think.”

Other than that, nothing earth-shattering. Refuses to discuss his reasons for leaving; says he wants a year off to get better so he'll be drafted; thinks he'll be De'Andre Hunter at Virginia (?).


FWIW, an Athletic subscription is very much worth the price, if you care about the teams they cover.
https://theathletic.com/1073521/

The Bolded has been my opinion since day one.  The reason Sam was open to a transfer was because he knew he wasn't ready to be drafted.  He, currently, is not athletic enough to be drafted.  By sitting out a year, he can work on speed, dribbling, attacking the rim.  I wouldn't be surprised if he would have transferred no matter what.  Feedback from scout's had to be similar and he either sat a year at MU or transferred somewhere else. 

Pakuni

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2019, 04:24:32 PM »
In case there was any question as to Paint Touches intent... https://twitter.com/painttouches/status/1151210021046427649?s=21

Oh, geez.
Brew: Dear author of dumb article, please tell me you agree with my defense of your dumb article 15 months after the fact.
Author: I agree.

brewcity77

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2019, 04:27:56 PM »
Oh, geez.
Brew: Dear author of dumb article, please tell me you agree with my defense of your dumb article 15 months after the fact.
Author: I agree.

Pakuni: I can't connect two dots into a straight line when I've watched numerous people connect those same dots in front of me multiple times.
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jesmu84

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2019, 05:12:55 PM »
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 05:31:42 PM by jesmu84 »

#UnleashSean

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2019, 10:23:52 PM »
This has turned yummier then an Amazon debate with cheeks.

GO BREW!

Loose Cannon

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2019, 10:32:49 PM »


Yep, seems to always boil down to who do you believe.
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MU82

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2019, 02:27:14 AM »
I think this is less an excuse and more a way to justify and/or find a silver lining in having to sit a year at a point in his career when most players wouldn't be willing to do so.

And a sidenote - I don't think there are any Markus haters on this board. There are people who get frustrated at times (mostly due to having extremely high expectations), but I don't think anyone could actually be classified as a hater.

Agree with your first point.

As to your second ...

There is one Scooper who came right out and called Markus a "cancer." Not sure how you define "hater," but I think calling a person a cancer indicates hatred toward that person.

I don't recall anybody else overtly calling him that, but not many of the Hauserites who at least partly blame Markus for their heroes' departure were admonishing that Scooper for calling Markus a "cancer." A few even seemed to support that Scooper.
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mileskishnish72

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #97 on: July 17, 2019, 12:19:32 PM »
I just love the way people form opinions and support them vigorously without necessarily knowing basic facts. Case in point, do the folks going back and forth about Sam, the doctors, the staff, etc. know what exactly what the problem with Sam's hip was and/or the nature of the surgery? I don't. But I do know that there are several possible options in a young healthy male and that they have differing rehab programs and differing risks as to the possibilities long-term consequences.

I choose to believe that the doctors, training staff, coaches, parents, and the kid himself came to a collective decision regarding when to play in light of what risks there were, and that the bottom line was the kid's welfare, short-term and long-term. I wouldn't go to the mattresses on a phrase or two that a kid might use in an interview, since he may or may not be describing things accurately.


4everwarriors

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #98 on: July 17, 2019, 12:31:56 PM »
Agree with your first point.

As to your second ...

There is one Scooper who came right out and called Markus a "cancer." Not sure how you define "hater," but I think calling a person a cancer indicates hatred toward that person.

I don't recall anybody else overtly calling him that, but not many of the Hauserites who at least partly blame Markus for their heroes' departure were admonishing that Scooper for calling Markus a "cancer." A few even seemed to support that Scooper.



C'mon Nads, you know better than this. Rican's opinion does not, even by the widest margin, infer hatred. Do you hate white males? Wouldn't know otherwise by your constant interjected comments, even if they are not relevant to the topic.
Hatred? Look no further than AOC, Omar, Tlaib, and Pressley.
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real chili 83

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Re: Athletic story on Sam's departure
« Reply #99 on: July 17, 2019, 12:35:23 PM »
In before the lock!