Athletic story on Sam's departure

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Kind of makes you wonder if the way the staff handled Sam's sophomore year injury was dumb and dangerous after all.

Nah.  The whole point of the PT article was that playing him would make the injury worse.  That didn't happen and he had the surgery. 

I doubt having the surgery a couple weeks earlier would have made much of a difference.

[brewcity77]

I'm not so sure. We'll never know if it made it worse, but Sam specifically mentioned not having enough rehab time:

“I had a good junior season, but think it could’ve been better if I would’ve had more time to get my legs under me,” Hauser says. “This whole year (sitting out) is going to make up for what I missed."

If the surgery happens a few weeks earlier, if he doesn't play on it the day after the injury occurs and 3 more times in the following weeks, if he has close to another month of recovery time, maybe it comes out different. No way to know for certain, but Sam certainly infers that the timing of injury and recovery impeded his production last year.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm not so sure. We'll never know if it made it worse, but Sam specifically mentioned not having enough rehab time:

“I had a good junior season, but think it could’ve been better if I would’ve had more time to get my legs under me,” Hauser says. “This whole year (sitting out) is going to make up for what I missed."

If the surgery happens a few weeks earlier, if he doesn't play on it the day after the injury occurs and 3 more times in the following weeks, if he has close to another month of recovery time, maybe it comes out different. No way to know for certain, but Sam certainly infers that the timing of injury and recovery impeded his production last year.

I don't disagree, but I would say that doesn't rise to the level of "dumb and dangerous."  But maybe that was hyperbole from the beginning.

[tower912]

Another point in the argument/discussion about whether a college athlete is obligated to play in a lesser bowl game, or the NIT.    Sam wasn't a senior and hadn't declared for the draft.    His absence would have certainly meant winning fewer NIT games.    He chose to play and now says it impacted his next season.   

[ATL MU Warrior]

I'm not so sure. We'll never know if it made it worse, but Sam specifically mentioned not having enough rehab time:

“I had a good junior season, but think it could’ve been better if I would’ve had more time to get my legs under me,” Hauser says. “This whole year (sitting out) is going to make up for what I missed."

If the surgery happens a few weeks earlier, if he doesn't play on it the day after the injury occurs and 3 more times in the following weeks, if he has close to another month of recovery time, maybe it comes out different. No way to know for certain, but Sam certainly infers that the timing of injury and recovery impeded his production last year.

Sounds like a lot of rationalizing away a sub-par finish to the season to me.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Scoop AND especially the Hausers need to move on. Super Bar.

[Pakuni]

I'm not so sure. We'll never know if it made it worse, but Sam specifically mentioned not having enough rehab time:

“I had a good junior season, but think it could’ve been better if I would’ve had more time to get my legs under me,” Hauser says. “This whole year (sitting out) is going to make up for what I missed."

If the surgery happens a few weeks earlier, if he doesn't play on it the day after the injury occurs and 3 more times in the following weeks, if he has close to another month of recovery time, maybe it comes out different. No way to know for certain, but Sam certainly infers that the timing of injury and recovery impeded his production last year.

This seems a stretch.
Sam's simply saying he believes he could have played better with a regular offseason, as opposed to one spent rehabbing. Which seems completely normal. To twist that into a criticism of the coaching staff allowing him to play - which he wanted and everyone agreed would not cause further harm - is going out of one's way to find something to complain about (which seems to be a Scoop theme of late).

[MU82]

From the perspective of Marquette Basketball, it is tragic.

#perspectiveisrelative eh?

We will not know for months, perhaps not for 8 months, how "tragic" it was. If we have as good as or better season in 2019-20 without him than we did in 2018-19 with him, and if we have a good recruiting class, it will not have been the least bit tragic. If the opposite happens and the program goes to shyte, I'm not sure "tragic" is the word I'd use but I'd at least understand the notion of it.

I am one who thought Hausershima would make recruiting more difficult for Wojo. Signing Symir was a nice start to prove otherwise, but it has not yet been followed up. I'm optimistic it will be. We'll see.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Sounds like the ages old rationalizations and excuse making of a turn tail loser.  Taking my ball and going home and making excuses. Sure it may have impeded him but that sure goes against everything that we have seen with this staff of holding out players when anything is in doubt.  Hell he could of sat out the non con season or the first month if practices etc. Every action and word that oozes out of these two show me nothing but prima donna excuse making losers.  Glad they are gone, they are the architects of the fall of one of the potentially best MU seasons in a long time and i will always see them as just that

[Its DJOver]

I'm not so sure. We'll never know if it made it worse, but Sam specifically mentioned not having enough rehab time:

“I had a good junior season, but think it could’ve been better if I would’ve had more time to get my legs under me,” Hauser says. “This whole year (sitting out) is going to make up for what I missed."

If the surgery happens a few weeks earlier, if he doesn't play on it the day after the injury occurs and 3 more times in the following weeks, if he has close to another month of recovery time, maybe it comes out different. No way to know for certain, but Sam certainly infers that the timing of injury and recovery impeded his production last year.

No offense to Sam, because I enjoyed him as a player, but this seems like a pretty weak excuse.  Didn't he say multiple times that he would be/was 100% by the time the season started?  If Markus doesn't have as good of a year next year as we're all hoping and comes out and says that it would have been better if he could have had an entire off-season with a healthy wrist, many of the Markus haters here would absolutely blast him.

[MU82]

No offense to Sam, because I enjoyed him as a player, but this seems like a pretty weak excuse.  Didn't he say multiple times that he would be/was 100% by the time the season started?  If Markus doesn't have as good of a year next year as we're all hoping and comes out and says that it would have been better if he could have had an entire off-season with a healthy wrist, many of the Markus haters here would absolutely blast him.

Superb point.

[MuMark]

This seems a stretch.
Sam's simply saying he believes he could have played better with a regular offseason, as opposed to one spent rehabbing. Which seems completely normal. To twist that into a criticism of the coaching staff allowing him to play - which he wanted and everyone agreed would not cause further harm - is going out of one's way to find something to complain about (which seems to be a Scoop theme of late).

Agree with this take.

[brewcity77]

Sam is an athlete and competitor. For the same reason that he gutted through the DePaul game and Villanova game the next day, and the NIT after, it's entirely possible he was willing to start the season full contact even if he wasn't 100%.

Did Sam agree to play? Yes. I also think Sam is the type of player who's going to go out there regardless and give it his all. As is Markus, clearly. I think it's silly to overly criticize a competitor for competing as that's what legends (Willis Reed, Jordan flu game, etc) are made of. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think those competitors might, given the benefit of hindsight, realize that playing through pain in the moment was a poor decision.

Especially with college kids, it's incumbent on the adults in the room to be adults. For the coaches and family to recognize the risks. Maybe due diligence was done, but it's hard to say that a kid who was clearly hampered by injury at the time and is citing that injury as a reason for a year of decreased production now might not have benefited from 3 fewer weeks of wear and tear and 3 more weeks of rehab.

While "dumb and dangerous" was a bit hyperbolic, the points made in the article and the article itself hold up and are reinforced by Sam's own comments now.

https://painttouches.com/2018/03/21/greska-playing-hauser-was-dumb-and-dangerous/

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

But did his production really decrease?  He played more, shot more, scored more and rebounded more last year than he did in his previous two.  The only thing he struggled with was his 3 point shooting. Was that due to injury or due to Rowsey being out of the picture?

I guess we will see if this is actually the case, but my guess is that he will have roughly the same Senior year as he did the previous two.  I don't think there is some super-star player just waiting for an injury to heal. 

[NYWarrior]

But did his production really decrease?  He played more, shot more, scored more and rebounded more last year than he did in his previous two.  The only thing he struggled with was his 3 point shooting. Was that due to injury or due to Rowsey being out of the picture?

I guess we will see if this is actually the case, but my guess is that he will have roughly the same Senior year as he did the previous two.  I don't think there is some super-star player just waiting for an injury to heal.

Sam YTY http://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2019&p=Sam%20Hauser&t=Marquette

[Its DJOver]

Sam is an athlete and competitor. For the same reason that he gutted through the DePaul game and Villanova game the next day, and the NIT after, it's entirely possible he was willing to start the season full contact even if he wasn't 100%.

Did Sam agree to play? Yes. I also think Sam is the type of player who's going to go out there regardless and give it his all. As is Markus, clearly. I think it's silly to overly criticize a competitor for competing as that's what legends (Willis Reed, Jordan flu game, etc) are made of. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think those competitors might, given the benefit of hindsight, realize that playing through pain in the moment was a poor decision.

Especially with college kids, it's incumbent on the adults in the room to be adults. For the coaches and family to recognize the risks. Maybe due diligence was done, but it's hard to say that a kid who was clearly hampered by injury at the time and is citing that injury as a reason for a year of decreased production now might not have benefited from 3 fewer weeks of wear and tear and 3 more weeks of rehab.

While "dumb and dangerous" was a bit hyperbolic, the points made in the article and the article itself hold up and are reinforced by Sam's own comments now.

https://painttouches.com/2018/03/21/greska-playing-hauser-was-dumb-and-dangerous/

Of course you can say that, but at what point do you draw the line when the only two options are sit out the entire year, or burn an entire year of eligibility?  If Theo were to sprain his ankle and miss a week of off-season workouts he wouldn't get a full off-season to improve but if the idea of red-shirting him was presented it would get immediately laughed at.  There were whispers that Matt was never fully healthy after the weight room incident with his foot, but given the depth at his position as well as his skill-set I think the idea of him red-shirting would also get laughed at. 

At the end of the day, the coaching staff and doctors have to make what they believe is the right decision.  It may turn out to end up being the wrong decision, but I refuse to believe that anyone on our coaching staff did anything that wasn't in a players best interests health wise, which is what the PT article insinuates in its title.

[Galway Eagle]

Sam is an athlete and competitor. For the same reason that he gutted through the DePaul game and Villanova game the next day, and the NIT after, it's entirely possible he was willing to start the season full contact even if he wasn't 100%.

Did Sam agree to play? Yes. I also think Sam is the type of player who's going to go out there regardless and give it his all. As is Markus, clearly. I think it's silly to overly criticize a competitor for competing as that's what legends (Willis Reed, Jordan flu game, etc) are made of. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think those competitors might, given the benefit of hindsight, realize that playing through pain in the moment was a poor decision.

Especially with college kids, it's incumbent on the adults in the room to be adults. For the coaches and family to recognize the risks. Maybe due diligence was done, but it's hard to say that a kid who was clearly hampered by injury at the time and is citing that injury as a reason for a year of decreased production now might not have benefited from 3 fewer weeks of wear and tear and 3 more weeks of rehab.

While "dumb and dangerous" was a bit hyperbolic, the points made in the article and the article itself hold up and are reinforced by Sam's own comments now.

https://painttouches.com/2018/03/21/greska-playing-hauser-was-dumb-and-dangerous/

Should probably throw out the "college kids" narrative. There's adults who were younger than him fighting in the military, adults younger than him married with kids, working 9-5 paying bills etc. he's an adult not a kid.

[brewcity77]

Should probably throw out the "college kids" narrative. There's adults who were younger than him fighting in the military, adults younger than him married with kids, working 9-5 paying bills etc. he's an adult not a kid.

There are, and as I was once one, I'm 10,000% confident in saying you're more likely to make dumb decisions as an 18-22 year old "adult" than you are once you gain some experience in the world.

That's not a slam on Sam or young adults, it's simply the stark reality that you can't make decisions with the benefit of experience without experience.

[Galway Eagle]

There are, and as I was once one, I'm 10,000% confident in saying you're more likely to make dumb decisions as an 18-22 year old "adult" than you are once you gain some experience in the world.

That's not a slam on Sam or young adults, it's simply the stark reality that you can't make decisions with the benefit of experience without experience.

No argument here. Just nitpicking because calling him a kid takes responsibility off of him.

[Pakuni]

Sam is an athlete and competitor. For the same reason that he gutted through the DePaul game and Villanova game the next day, and the NIT after, it's entirely possible he was willing to start the season full contact even if he wasn't 100%.

Did Sam agree to play? Yes. I also think Sam is the type of player who's going to go out there regardless and give it his all. As is Markus, clearly. I think it's silly to overly criticize a competitor for competing as that's what legends (Willis Reed, Jordan flu game, etc) are made of. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think those competitors might, given the benefit of hindsight, realize that playing through pain in the moment was a poor decision.

Especially with college kids, it's incumbent on the adults in the room to be adults. For the coaches and family to recognize the risks. Maybe due diligence was done, but it's hard to say that a kid who was clearly hampered by injury at the time and is citing that injury as a reason for a year of decreased production now might not have benefited from 3 fewer weeks of wear and tear and 3 more weeks of rehab.

While "dumb and dangerous" was a bit hyperbolic, the points made in the article and the article itself hold up and are reinforced by Sam's own comments now.

https://painttouches.com/2018/03/21/greska-playing-hauser-was-dumb-and-dangerous/

First, nobody here is criticizing Sam for competing, much less "overly" criticizing him for it. I think we all agree that his playing through the injury is testament to his toughness.

"Dumb and dangerous" was more than "a bit" hyperbolic and it takes some pretzel logic to say Sam's comments to The Athletic  reinforce that article. The article assailed the MU staff for risking the injury getting worse or causing another injury.
Some quotes:
"But there is clear evidence of untreated injuries causing further injuries to unrelated muscles and bones."
"Any odds, no matter how minimal, was not worth the potential for long term damage, particularly because the games were “only” NIT games."
"So all of this is to say, Wojo and Sam took a very unnecessary risk by playing Hauser in the NIT and didn’t really reap any rewards."

You know what the article didn't say? Anything about how delaying  surgery would interfere with Sam's summer workouts and, as a result, make him less effective the following season. Not a single word in the article addresses that.
To come back now and say Sam's comments reinforce the article when the article never even addressed the impact Sam's preparations for the following season is wishful thinking.

[brewcity77]

Of course you can say that, but at what point do you draw the line when the only two options are sit out the entire year, or burn an entire year of eligibility?  If Theo were to sprain his ankle and miss a week of off-season workouts he wouldn't get a full off-season to improve but if the idea of red-shirting him was presented it would get immediately laughed at.  There were whispers that Matt was never fully healthy after the weight room incident with his foot, but given the depth at his position as well as his skill-set I think the idea of him red-shirting would also get laughed at. 

At the end of the day, the coaching staff and doctors have to make what they believe is the right decision.  It may turn out to end up being the wrong decision, but I refuse to believe that anyone on our coaching staff did anything that wasn't in a players best interests health wise, which is what the PT article insinuates in its title.

We now have two instances where not resting a clearly injured star player may have led to a worse long term outcome. Sam wasn't 100% and seems to believe he never fully recovered. Markus wasn't 100% and couldn't sustain his play last year after the injury. Maybe it's coincidence. Maybe it's an indicator of a staff willing to take chances to get results.

I don't know. But this feels like another one of those cases where the anti-Wojo crowd would point to it as evidence he has to go, the pro-Wojo crowd would dismiss it as alarmism, and the rest of us would be stuck in the middle waiting for more evidence to push us one direction or the other.

I'm going to hope it's the former, but I'll certainly be attentive for the possibility it's the latter.

[TallTitan34]

We now have two instances where not resting a clearly injured star player may have led to a worse long term outcome. Sam wasn't 100% and seems to believe he never fully recovered. Markus wasn't 100% and couldn't sustain his play last year after the injury. Maybe it's coincidence. Maybe it's an indicator of a staff willing to take chances to get results.

I don't know. But this feels like another one of those cases where the anti-Wojo crowd would point to it as evidence he has to go, the pro-Wojo crowd would dismiss it as alarmism, and the rest of us would be stuck in the middle waiting for more evidence to push us one direction or the other.

I'm going to hope it's the former, but I'll certainly be attentive for the possibility it's the latter.

What about when they sat Markus for the Georgetown game after a few minutes of play?

[brewcity77]

Some quotes:
"But there is clear evidence of untreated injuries causing further injuries to unrelated muscles and bones."
"Any odds, no matter how minimal, was not worth the potential for long term damage, particularly because the games were “only” NIT games."

You know what the article didn't say? Anything about how delaying the surgery would interfere with Sam's summer workouts and, as a result, make him less effective the following season. Not a single word in the article addresses that question.
To come back now and say Sam's comments reinforce the article when the article never even addressed the impact Sam's preparations for the following season is wishful thinking.

The portions you quoted disprove your assertion. "Further injuries" and "potential for long term damage" both indicate future risks, which would include rehab time over the summer and his efficacy as a player going forward. It's not wishful thinking, it's literally right there in the part of the article you cite.

[Pakuni]

The portions you quoted disprove your assertion. "Further injuries" and "potential for long term damage" both indicate future risks, which would include rehab time over the summer and his efficacy as a player going forward. It's not wishful thinking, it's literally right there in the part of the article you cite.

And this is the pretzel logic I mention.
The article repeatedly says the risk was worsening the injury or causing one more serious. It even cites the Bonzie Colson case as an example of what was at risk. the fact is Sam didn't worsen the injury or suffer a more serious one.
It says not one word about how delaying the surgery would impact Sam's 2018-19. You are squinting very hard to make that inference in order to defend what remains a very bad article.

[Its DJOver]

We now have two instances where not resting a clearly injured star player may have led to a worse long term outcome. Sam wasn't 100% and seems to believe he never fully recovered. Markus wasn't 100% and couldn't sustain his play last year after the injury. Maybe it's coincidence. Maybe it's an indicator of a staff willing to take chances to get results.

I don't know. But this feels like another one of those cases where the anti-Wojo crowd would point to it as evidence he has to go, the pro-Wojo crowd would dismiss it as alarmism, and the rest of us would be stuck in the middle waiting for more evidence to push us one direction or the other.

I'm going to hope it's the former, but I'll certainly be attentive for the possibility it's the latter.

If anyone really believes that I would hope that they re-evaluate their fandom.  As much as I love winning, I would never want a player risking their long term health in an attempt to win a basketball game.  The only recent instance I can think of where this actually happened was when Carlino got his concussion against Nova and came back into the game.  Iirc Wojo took quite a bit of criticism for that decision on here, and deservedly so.  As TT points out, Wojo pulled Markus against Gtown, as well as against CU two years ago when he was hurt.  Wojo probably didn't handle the whole Hauser situation perfectly (again, we don't have all the facts but it's safe to assume he shares some of the blame), but I very much doubt that he would play him or anyone if a doctor told him that they were at serious risk.