Chasing Ghosts: DePaul's sad journey from name brand to also-ran

[Jon]

According to accounts I have read, Mikan was incredibly awkward and Meyer, in his first year, took a chance on him. Meyer invented the "Mikan Drill" just for big George, and teams from youth leagues up through college still use it today.

As Mikan matured into his body, he became a star, and he and Meyer went to a Final Four and won an NIT title back when it was at least as important as the NCAAs. It was decades before DePaul really made another national splash.

My son went to Ray's last 5 years of basketball camps up in northern Wisconsin. I went up there once for a few days just to see what it was all about. A very special environment for the kids.

Mike

The youth here don't realize that the NIT was actually the more prestigious tournament back in the day.

Great background stuff on Mikan, by the way.

[Jon]

It stopped right here in 1994 when the greatest Packer QB of all time dove in to the end zone, securing the Packers a spot in the playoffs.

David Whitehurst was QB'ing the Pack in 1994?

[Jon]

This is false.  MU only requires freshmen and sophomores to live on campus, and only if they aren't living with a parent or legal guardian.

in loco parentis

[Jon]

I had a few classmates who tried to scam that exception, using "relatives" within the radius (35 miles seems rather arbitrary) to get out of the on-campus housing requirement during sophomore year.

What? They didn't want to live in the Vomitorium that was McCormick?

What astounded me was not just how so many weak bellied punks couldn't hold their liquor but how they thought puking in the Vator, the hallway, or, worse, the drinking fountain (Bubbler in Milwaukeese) was acceptable.

The drinking age was 18 back then. I guess at Georgetown Prep we learned how to handle our booze at all of those drug and booze-fueled Orgy Fests guys like Kavanaugh organized...

[MU82]

This is not true, they were offered the Finkl Steelyards area which is walking distance from campus. It was a once in a generation opportunity to buy a large chunk of prime real estate on the river, with amazing views of the city, and walking distance to campus and they declined. DePaul is the worst run school in the country if you ask me and I graduated there with my Master's.

Although I still think the best place to put an arena would have been on the Children's Memorial Hospital property that since has been sold and will soon be an apartments/retail extravaganza, I did not know about the situation regarding the area you talk about here. Certainly intriguing, and if it really is within walking distance it would be better than being near McCormick Place IMHO.

[GooooMarquette]

David Whitehurst was QB'ing the Pack in 1994?

Jimmy Del Gaizo.

[Cheeks]

Goddamn Hank.

Let me have your attention for a moment:

Bitching about that Chicago recruit you lost...

Nice guy? I don't give a sh1t.

Good father? F#ck you, go home and play with your kids.

You know what it takes to coach elite Div I basketball? It takes brass balls to win championships.



Hank was handed one of the top 4 or 5 programs in college basketball. And he pissed it away.

Marquette was at an inflection point. Denny Crum said he would crawl on his belly to take over for Al. Digger begged for the job. Instead, Marquette chose Hank.

Marquette had the entire team coming back and Hank couldn't get past the first round against Miami of F#cking Ohio.

It's not that Hank didn't know basketball. The problem is that he didn't resonate with the recruits. He wasn't Al. Hell, he wasn't even Dick Vitale.

Into the void stepped Ray Meyer who started signing the Aguirres, Corbins, Cummings, and Garlands - guys who had been locks for Marquette (meanwhile, Denny Crum was signing the Darrell Griffiths, Derek Smiths, Milt Wagners, the McCrays, and Milt Thompsons on his way to ringing up championships.)

Biggest decision in Marquette's history and they chose Plan B: Caspar Milquetoast. Just a terrible decision.

You are not wrong.  I also think Al was asked who should take over for him and Hank was his choice.  They were going to listen to Al.

[Jon]

Jimmy Del Gaizo.

Scott Hunter

[Slim]

Goddamn Hank.

Let me have your attention for a moment:

Bitching about that Chicago recruit you lost...

Nice guy? I don't give a sh1t.

Good father? F#ck you, go home and play with your kids.

You know what it takes to coach elite Div I basketball? It takes brass balls to win championships.



Hank was handed one of the top 4 or 5 programs in college basketball. And he pissed it away.

Marquette was at an inflection point. Denny Crum said he would crawl on his belly to take over for Al. Digger begged for the job. Instead, Marquette chose Hank.

Marquette had the entire team coming back and Hank couldn't get past the first round against Miami of F#cking Ohio.

It's not that Hank didn't know basketball. The problem is that he didn't resonate with the recruits. He wasn't Al. Hell, he wasn't even Dick Vitale.

Into the void stepped Ray Meyer who started signing the Aguirres, Corbins, Cummings, and Garlands - guys who had been locks for Marquette (meanwhile, Denny Crum was signing the Darrell Griffiths, Derek Smiths, Milt Wagners, the McCrays, and Milt Thompsons on his way to ringing up championships.)

Biggest decision in Marquette's history and they chose Plan B: Caspar Milquetoast. Just a terrible decision.

How the hell did Ray resonate with the recruits?

[Jon]

How the hell did Ray resonate with the recruits?

Slim

That's not the point. Look at outcomes. Whether it's warfighting, engineering, or building a winning team it's all about effects.

Fact is, when Al stepped down and Hank took over the flow of top talent dried up. Effects.

And the fact is, rather than sign with Marquette that talent started signing with DePaul. Maybe Ray Meyer paid better or simply had a better schtick. But the outcome was that top Chicago talent started signing with Ray Meyer and not Hank Raymonds.

By all accounts Hank was a real gentleman. But Marquette's fall from the pinnacle of college basketball happened on his watch. Because of him or despite him Marquette went from being the National Champion to out of the picture completely.

Hank Raymonds was a terrible decision for the University.

Imagine what would have been had Buck Raynor hired Cool Hand Luke. Marquette's standing as a Blue Blood challenging for National Championships would have continued.

About the only similarity between Hank and Crum was they both paced the sidelines with the program rolled up in one hand. Crum went to Final Fours and won Championships. Hank did neither.   

[Lennys Tap]

How the hell did Ray resonate with the recruits?

Actually it was Ray's son Joey who moved DePaul into the vacuum created by Al's retirement. He was Ray's lead (only?) recruiter. If Al had still been around my guess Joey wouldn't have had the balls to even call Aguirre or Cummings. But vacuums get filled and Joey and DePaul were in the right place at the right time.

[oldwarrior81]

Scott Hunter

Oct 28, 1973

The Packers (2-2-2) travel to Tiger Stadium to take on the Lions (1-4-1).  The teams had played to a 13-13 draw back in Sept.
Vegas had the game as a pick 'em.

Scott Hunter has a game to remember:  1/10 for -4 yards.  Don't forget the interception and two fumbles.  Let's not bring up the sacks.

Jimmy Del Gaizo comes off the bench and throws for 33 yards in the second half.  All for naught as the Lions cover the spread 34-0. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

How do Lynn Dickey and Chester the Molester not get a mention?

[Cheeks]

You can beat our Packers, but you can't lick our Dickey

[Heisenberg]

Although I still think the best place to put an arena would have been on the Children's Memorial Hospital property that since has been sold and will soon be an apartments/retail extravaganza, I did not know about the situation regarding the area you talk about here. Certainly intriguing, and if it really is within walking distance it would be better than being near McCormick Place IMHO.

Depaul's "problem" is they are in a very expensive neighborhood.  A tear-down is $1.5 million.  Decent homes are $2 to $3 million.

So Lincon yards (the old Finkl steel) is a billion-dollar project.  The new apartment complex on the Children Hospital ground is several hundred million dollars.

For Depaul to put their arena at Finkl or the Children's hospital would cost more than their endowment.

And then there is the pushback from the neighborhood. 

Lincoln Yards was going to build a soccer stadium seating about 15,000 just north of the Home Depot on North Ave (Ricketts was going buy a USSL franchise to put in it).  The neighborhood went wild and marshaled their aldermen to kill it (Lincoln yards cover four wards and the aldermen from those wards banded together to kill it).

There is simply no possible way that a 10,000 to 15,000 seats arena was going to get zoning on Lincoln and Fullerton.  And I think a stadium on the Finkl property would have met the same fate.

So it is nice to talk about the "what if" and say DePaul blew it.  That's being lazy and ignorant.  They were never ever ever going to get a stadium in either location, no matter how much they had.

[Heisenberg]

This is not true, they were offered the Finkl Steelyards area which is walking distance from campus. It was a once in a generation opportunity to buy a large chunk of prime real estate on the river, with amazing views of the city, and walking distance to campus and they declined. DePaul is the worst run school in the country if you ask me and I graduated there with my Master's.

They were never "offered" Finkl. They were asked to bid on it. Finkl is private property, no one was "giving it" to Depaul. And as I noted above, Sterling Bay is sinking $1 billion into the Lincoln Yards project.  That is larger than DePaul's endowment.  They were never getting it.

And Depaul is not one of the worst run schools in the country.  Actually it is one of the better run major universities in the country. 

Simple metric.  Most universities are poorly run and they wind up killing the neighborhood they are in.  Ever been to Hyde Park, Cambridge or New Haven. They are not good neighborhoods. (Northwestern is another well-run university)

But I get it, everyone here is lazy and judges a school by only one criterion, its win-loss in the Big East. Certainly that is how MU is judged.

By this logic, you probably think the ivy league is a collection of crappy schools because their basketball teams are not very good D1 programs.

[MUDPT]

The CMH site plans were being developed 10+ years ago, when we lived 2 blocks away. Besides being uber-expensive like you said, I'm not sure how DePaul could have looked that far in the future.

[GooooMarquette]

Did someone mention Henry Finkel?

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_665109

[MU82]

But I get it, everyone here is lazy

Yep, everyone is lazy except Smuggles. All hail Smuggles, the only hard-working Scooper!

[Jon]

Oct 28, 1973

The Packers (2-2-2) travel to Tiger Stadium to take on the Lions (1-4-1).  The teams had played to a 13-13 draw back in Sept.
Vegas had the game as a pick 'em.

Scott Hunter has a game to remember:  1/10 for -4 yards.  Don't forget the interception and two fumbles.  Let's not bring up the sacks.

Jimmy Del Gaizo comes off the bench and throws for 33 yards in the second half.  All for naught as the Lions cover the spread 34-0.

Jerry Tagge?

[Billy Hoyle]

Did someone mention Henry Finkel?

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_665109

I believe he is now known as Lt. Einhorn

[Galway Eagle]

I believe he is now known as Lt. Einhorn

Classic

[kryza]

Depaul's "problem" is they are in a very expensive neighborhood.  A tear-down is $1.5 million.  Decent homes are $2 to $3 million.

So Lincon yards (the old Finkl steel) is a billion-dollar project.  The new apartment complex on the Children Hospital ground is several hundred million dollars.

For Depaul to put their arena at Finkl or the Children's hospital would cost more than their endowment.

And then there is the pushback from the neighborhood. 

Lincoln Yards was going to build a soccer stadium seating about 15,000 just north of the Home Depot on North Ave (Ricketts was going buy a USSL franchise to put in it).  The neighborhood went wild and marshaled their aldermen to kill it (Lincoln yards cover four wards and the aldermen from those wards banded together to kill it).

There is simply no possible way that a 10,000 to 15,000 seats arena was going to get zoning on Lincoln and Fullerton.  And I think a stadium on the Finkl property would have met the same fate.

So it is nice to talk about the "what if" and say DePaul blew it.  That's being lazy and ignorant.  They were never ever ever going to get a stadium in either location, no matter how much they had.

From what I heard, they were offered a deal very similar to the wintrust arena deal by Sterling Bay, they desperately wanted a local connection to the area to appease the RANCH community. They weren't going to buy the whole development. They would be an anchor tenant of the arena in the lincoln yards. They still don't have any anchor tenants after Amazon and the new soccer team didn't work out. This was all before the wintrust deal. DePaul is most definitely a terribly run school in my opinion, you are free to have your own opinion. The AD and athletic department is just the tip of the iceberg of the overall terribleness of DePaul. It's fallen far in just like 15-20 years. It used to be a pretty solid place with a good reputation. It's all sullied now.

[The Sultan]

Simple metric.  Most universities are poorly run and they wind up killing the neighborhood they are in.  Ever been to Hyde Park, Cambridge or New Haven. They are not good neighborhoods.

Hold on.

Are you seriously saying that poorly run universities "kill" the neighborhoods in which they are located?  That is really an odd statement.  So you think that Chicago, Yale and Harvard are "poorly run" because their respective neighborhoods suck, yet all of them are considered among the best universities in the world today.  And then you have the opposite, schools like Barat College.  They obviously must have been well run, they were in the middle of beautiful Lake Forest!!!  Yet they closed...

I have no idea if DePaul is poorly run or not.  But I do know that the fact that Lincoln Park is nice has nothing to do with it.

[Galway Eagle]

They were never "offered" Finkl. They were asked to bid on it. Finkl is private property, no one was "giving it" to Depaul. And as I noted above, Sterling Bay is sinking $1 billion into the Lincoln Yards project.  That is larger than DePaul's endowment.  They were never getting it.

And Depaul is not one of the worst run schools in the country.  Actually it is one of the better run major universities in the country. 

Simple metric.  Most universities are poorly run and they wind up killing the neighborhood they are in.  Ever been to Hyde Park, Cambridge or New Haven. They are not good neighborhoods. (Northwestern is another well-run university)

But I get it, everyone here is lazy and judges a school by only one criterion, its win-loss in the Big East. Certainly that is how MU is judged.

By this logic, you probably think the ivy league is a collection of crappy schools because their basketball teams are not very good D1 programs.

What are you talking about? Hyde park is just fine. It's no Lincoln Park or Gold Coast etc but it's just fine.