POLL:Uconn to Big East good or bad?

[brewcity77]

All three of those teams are non-starters.  Fox TV execs want inventory.   Which set of games sound more attractive?

Villanova vs UConn
Georgetown vs UConn
Marquette vs UConn

Or

Villanova vs Dayton
Georgetown vs SLU
Marquette vs Fordham

None of the above is fine with me. I don't want Dayton, SLU, or Fordham. I just don't want UConn more. The only attraction to UConn, the ONLY attraction, is their women's basketball program.

Go for home and homes with B12, P12, or prominent mid majors over adding anyone that isn't a good philosophical fit.

[Cheeks]

None of the above is fine with me. I don't want Dayton, SLU, or Fordham. I just don't want UConn more. The only attraction to UConn, the ONLY attraction, is their women's basketball program.

Go for home and homes with B12, P12, or prominent mid majors over adding anyone that isn't a good philosophical fit.

But those home and homes will be even more difficult to come by as conferences go to 20 games.

[Cheeks]

Of course it does. It means their circumstances have changed.  It means they aren't in a Power 5 football conference, with all the money that brings, and playing at the fringes of FBS football, in a terrible location for football recruiting.  They know they aren't going to succeed football wise.  They know a Power 5 invite isn't coming anytime soon, and probably ever. 


Panic? Why do you think there is any panic involved?  If there is one thing the BE leadership has done, it isn't panic.  Did they panic when the B10 put their conference tournament in MSG?  No, they negotiated a better contract and locked it down for another decade. Did they panic and add Dayton when Archie Miller was having success there?  No, they waited for something better to come around.

This conference leadership has been thoughtful and strong for the past six years - ever since they made the bold move to leave the OBE behind.  They deserve the benefit of the doubt that they approached this topic the same way.


The BE is doing nothing of the sort.  They aren't starting a football conference like they did before.  They have members who play football.  Just like they already had.  A crappy FBS program is a couple steps ahead of a good FCS one.

Basketball is the priority.  That hasn't changed.  And this opinion piece states that.

https://www.courant.com/sports/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-column-20190623-w4s4rlneqfbjpbtjqvbqalrkim-story.html

"UConn won’t chase a football national championship in our lifetime, the Power 5 ship has sailed and the university’s true brand must be re-established and strengthened. For a handful of years the stance in Storrs seemed to be that the proud basketball programs would thrive through the power of their own volition and rich history while the university pursued a the Power 5 pipe dream.

No more of that. Nothing comes at the expense of UConn basketball and nothing should. You place your most valuable pieces accordingly and let the rest fall into place from there."

This...all of this

[GooooMarquette]

The only attraction to UConn, the ONLY attraction, is their women's basketball program.

I'm curious if Mr. Nielsen or anyone else here has the UConn men's TV ratings for the past couple of seasons, and could perhaps compare them to the ratings for the current 10 BE teams. If UConn is in the middle to upper portion despite playing an AAC schedule, that would be a clear indicator that their men's program would help.

I also happen to think another team in the NYC megalopolis will help cement our presence at MSG for a very long time.

[Uncle Rico]

But those home and homes will be even more difficult to come by as conferences go to 20 games.

The move to 20 conference games will make it even harder for mid-majors to make the tournament.  Big boys don’t want to share that pie

[The Lens]

How is UConn not a good philosophical fit?  They are lighting their football team on fire to help keep their basketball teams warm.  What more do you want them to do?

[brewcity77]

But those home and homes will be even more difficult to come by as conferences go to 20 games.

Not at the mid major level. It will make it easier. When all the big boys are at 20 games, it will be near impossible for the top mid majors to get a game. Schools like Gonzaga, St Mary's, BYU, VCU, Dayton, Nevada, UNLV, Buffalo, etc will likely have to give up more to get those kind of games. Home and homes, 2-for-1s, even buy games will be necessary for them to get that exposure. There's no rush to 20 because the demand for those teams will go down.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

None of the above is fine with me. I don't want Dayton, SLU, or Fordham. I just don't want UConn more. The only attraction to UConn, the ONLY attraction, is their women's basketball program.

Go for home and homes with B12, P12, or prominent mid majors over adding anyone that isn't a good philosophical fit.

UConn is a top 10-15 program all time. That's better than 90% of the Big East. That's the attraction and honestly, the only thing that matters.

[Cheeks]

Not at the mid major level. It will make it easier. When all the big boys are at 20 games, it will be near impossible for the top mid majors to get a game. Schools like Gonzaga, St Mary's, BYU, VCU, Dayton, Nevada, UNLV, Buffalo, etc will likely have to give up more to get those kind of games. Home and homes, 2-for-1s, even buy games will be necessary for them to get that exposure. There's no rush to 20 because the demand for those teams will go down.

Disagree.  Inventory has contracted, and big schools still need 20 wins.  With two added conference games which have greater chance of being losses, those cupcake buy games will remain in place meaning even more difficulty scheduling high major home and homes.  Coaches won’t want the L’s, and there simply won’t be a spot on the schedule to put them unless the schedule is expanded so schools play extra games overall.

[brewcity77]

Disagree.  Inventory has contracted, and big schools still need 20 wins.  With two added conference games which have greater chance of being losses, those cupcake buy games will remain in place meaning even more difficulty scheduling high major home and homes.  Coaches won’t want the L’s, and there simply won’t be a spot on the schedule to put them unless the schedule is expanded so schools play extra games overall.

If we are still playing 18 conference games, we will still need to fill 13 non-conference games. If the desire from the B10, ACC, and others to play schools like the ones I mentioned above goes down, then it will by default become easier for leagues that continue to schedule 18 conference games to get those games.

And we already schedule to get 20 total wins. It just means that instead of playing Georgia, LSU, or Kansas State, we'd be playing VCU, Gonzaga, or Dayton in those same slots, but it would be easier to get favorable terms (2-for-1) because the demand for them would diminish from 20-game leagues. Of the 13 non-con games, you would still play the same number of buy games. Let's be honest, adding UConn won't change the buy games at all. It will only reduce high-major home-and-homes because one is effectively built in.

[Herman Cain]

Not at the mid major level. It will make it easier. When all the big boys are at 20 games, it will be near impossible for the top mid majors to get a game. Schools like Gonzaga, St Mary's, BYU, VCU, Dayton, Nevada, UNLV, Buffalo, etc will likely have to give up more to get those kind of games. Home and homes, 2-for-1s, even buy games will be necessary for them to get that exposure. There's no rush to 20 because the demand for those teams will go down.

Brew, I understand where you are coming from on the various  points you are making. 

Here is the pure business analysis: When this version of the Big East formed, a well defined brand was created. As you point out schools all had the same motivations and basketball was the flagship sport. An excellent, above market , deal was made with Fox Sports who needed product. In the subsequent years, the teams in the league have performed well and Fox has given excellent production values . The league has been disciplined and not rushed to expand.  So while U Conn would love to be part of the Big East basketball, there has not been a rush on the Big East side to embrace them. This strategy has worked well for the Big East for six years and in the meantime U Conn has been having some difficulties getting traction in their own league.

However, there has been a change of business circumstances. All of the other major conferences are moving toward a 20 game schedule. Big East, has the double round robin so they can hold out for a while ,but to eventually maintain parity with other conferences  will need to eventually embrace this new 20 game modality, otherwise put at risk the parity the league has obtained in terms of post season bids. Getting good non league games will be tough for the whole league. League makes big money by having a lot of teams in the tournament and needs to maintain NET rankings or whatever tools are being used. That is simply a business fact. 

So facing those business facts, the options are straight forward. Either eventually be forced to pick up Dayton, St. Louis, VCU or  Richmond ,  or figure out a way to make life work with U Conn. U Conn while not having the same motivations as the rest of the league, is clearly from an outsider TV viewing and fan attendance perspective a perfect fit.

Given that the Big East is up and U Conn is presently down, the Big East is probably at the best point in the league formation cycle to make a favorable deal with U Conn.  If U Conn is willing to sell low, our league should step in and buy at a value price. Dictate the terms of admission prior to next media deal.

I think U Conn has not properly assessed  the upside in their own situation. AAC just got a decent TV contract which will help the rest of the schools tremendously, the football schools are doing relatively well on the field and the basketball part of the league is making strides. U Conn  basketball has now gotten past the first coach after a legend. U Conn has a new coach who is well respected and should be making strides. In a few years they will be at a better spot than they are now. 

So from Big East standpoint much better to get actual ownership control of the U Conn brand , through grant of rights agreement etc, rather than come let them rent our brand a few years from now when they are in a stronger position to influence the next Big East media deal. Big East just needs to be smart about how they go about this. Forewarned is forearmed. The league can't  let U Conn have a scenario where they get the best of both worlds, our basketball and the ESPN football contract with AAC. As that will guarantee them leaving once the leagues expand again.  Hopefully the league is smart enough to create a structure to  mitigate that risk.

[D'Lo Brown]

Brew, I understand where you are coming from on the various  points you are making. 

Here is the pure business analysis: When this version of the Big East formed, a well defined brand was created. As you point out schools all had the same motivations and basketball was the flagship sport. An excellent, above market , deal was made with Fox Sports who needed product. In the subsequent years, the teams in the league have performed well and Fox has given excellent production values . The league has been disciplined and not rushed to expand.  So while U Conn would love to be part of the Big East basketball, there has not been a rush on the Big East side to embrace them. This strategy has worked well for the Big East for six years and in the meantime U Conn has been having some difficulties getting traction in their own league.

However, there has been a change of business circumstances. All of the other major conferences are moving toward a 20 game schedule. Big East, has the double round robin so they can hold out for a while ,but to eventually maintain parity with other conferences  will need to eventually embrace this new 20 game modality, otherwise put at risk the parity the league has obtained in terms of post season bids. Getting good non league games will be tough for the whole league. League makes big money by having a lot of teams in the tournament and needs to maintain NET rankings or whatever tools are being used. That is simply a business fact. 

So facing those business facts, the options are straight forward. Either eventually be forced to pick up Dayton, St. Louis, VCU or  Richmond ,  or figure out a way to make life work with U Conn. U Conn while not having the same motivations as the rest of the league, is clearly from an outsider TV viewing and fan attendance perspective a perfect fit.

Given that the Big East is up and U Conn is presently down, the Big East is probably at the best point in the league formation cycle to make a favorable deal with U Conn.  If U Conn is willing to sell low, our league should step in and buy at a value price. Dictate the terms of admission prior to next media deal.

I think U Conn has not properly assessed  the upside in their own situation. AAC just got a decent TV contract which will help the rest of the schools tremendously, the football schools are doing relatively well on the field and the basketball part of the league is making strides. U Conn  basketball has now gotten past the first coach after a legend. U Conn has a new coach who is well respected and should be making strides. In a few years they will be at a better spot than they are now. 

So from Big East standpoint much better to get actual ownership control of the U Conn brand , through grant of rights agreement etc, rather than come let them rent our brand a few years from now when they are in a stronger position to influence the next Big East media deal. Big East just needs to be smart about how they go about this. Forewarned is forearmed. The league can't  let U Conn have a scenario where they get the best of both worlds, our basketball and the ESPN football contract with AAC. As that will guarantee them leaving once the leagues expand again.  Hopefully the league is smart enough to create a structure to  mitigate that risk.

Cogent points, IMO.

Uconn is recovering from the recruiting perspective after a period of off years. Ollie was a joke. Their 2019 class under Hurley is a top-25 group going in, and will give him more to work with. They are aiming rather high for 2020 and that group should end up being solid as well.

I think your reference to buy low, sell high is valid here. People assume that whatever has happened in the last 1-2 years can be generalized to the following 5-10 years. Uconn basketball is on an entirely different track now under Hurley and the timing of that, much improved recruiting, and a "MUGA" nostalgia campaign of returning to the Big East will restore Uconn back to normal levels for them. Normal attendance, normal fan interest, etc.

Having grown up in the state. Many fans of Uconn basketball did not go to school there. It is a much higher proportion than MU or Villanova, for example. Those fans will all be back when the team is playing good teams, rivals, and winning. You can't look at the downtrend in attendance for example and generalize a line of best fit, showing that Uconn basketball is seriously troubled. Uconn is as good a bet as any team to win the most Big East titles in the 2020s.

[brewcity77]

Given that the Big East is up and U Conn is presently down, the Big East is probably at the best point in the league formation cycle to make a favorable deal with U Conn.  If U Conn is willing to sell low, our league should step in and buy at a value price. Dictate the terms of admission prior to next media deal.

Good points, Herman, and I think this is the focus. I know there are plenty that don't think it matters, but I firmly believe UConn needs to drop out of D1 FBS football. Period. No exceptions. No parking in the AAC or MAC or as an independent. No chance whatsoever they are chasing other leagues. This league's stability is a known quantity and a strength.

Even if we don't add anyone after UConn, there is more risk to taking UConn than there is to taking a basketball only school. If we take UConn and they leave, it will indicate a weakness. Further, it will be a signal of what might be possible if other current FCS Big East members make a similar jump. We left that league for a reason. That reason was football. It was a cancer that was diminishing the quality of the sport our members most care about. Playing big time football, even as a 1-11 independent, is a cancer and a risk that is not worth it.

On Twitter, Chicos said UConn football is dead. If that's the case, fine. Burn the body, bury the remains, then talk to us. And at that point, if we can get UConn at a reduced NCAA and revenue share, force them to earn their way in, and after agreeing to an incredibly pro-current BE member buyout, then so be it. If we can get them cheap, they definitely have more upside than a Dayton or SLU, but we have to know their commitment is equal to the current members & the risk they run if they leave will always be greater than staying.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You are way overstating the negative impact of football playing conference members. The problem is when the conference let’s football drive the decisions. That’s not happening now nor will it in the future.

[brewcity77]

You are way overstating the negative impact of football playing conference members. The problem is when the conference let’s football drive the decisions. That’s not happening now nor will it in the future.

If we don't admit FBS members, you are correct. If we do, then there is no way to definitively say that is true.

[D'Lo Brown]

You are way overstating the negative impact of football playing conference members. The problem is when the conference let’s football drive the decisions. That’s not happening now nor will it in the future.

I think we can mark him down on that position at this point. It's really a judgment thing, there is nothing tangible to point at, and it is purely about predicting the future. For this to be a net negative for the Big East, Uconn will have to be a bottom-5 contributor to the league (nearly impossible to imagine as having Uconn will significantly boost TV negotiations with Fox), and they will have to leave the Big East for football reasons in the next 5-10 years, AND this will have to coincide with other BE members leaving as a result of it.

The truth is, if Uconn leaves after 5 years and everything else remains status quo, the Big East will have benefitted (net). Some contrarians on the internet will indicate that the sky is falling and the Big East is permanently tarnished, but I just don't see how that could possibly be true unless Uconn erodes what already existed prior to their entry.

[Cheeks]

Good points, Herman, and I think this is the focus. I know there are plenty that don't think it matters, but I firmly believe UConn needs to drop out of D1 FBS football. Period. No exceptions. No parking in the AAC or MAC or as an independent. No chance whatsoever they are chasing other leagues. This league's stability is a known quantity and a strength.

Even if we don't add anyone after UConn, there is more risk to taking UConn than there is to taking a basketball only school. If we take UConn and they leave, it will indicate a weakness. Further, it will be a signal of what might be possible if other current FCS Big East members make a similar jump. We left that league for a reason. That reason was football. It was a cancer that was diminishing the quality of the sport our members most care about. Playing big time football, even as a 1-11 independent, is a cancer and a risk that is not worth it.

On Twitter, Chicos said UConn football is dead. If that's the case, fine. Burn the body, bury the remains, then talk to us. And at that point, if we can get UConn at a reduced NCAA and revenue share, force them to earn their way in, and after agreeing to an incredibly pro-current BE member buyout, then so be it. If we can get them cheap, they definitely have more upside than a Dayton or SLU, but we have to know their commitment is equal to the current members & the risk they run if they leave will always be greater than staying.

You are propping up their potential football prowess way too much.  There is nothing to suggest they are going to suddenly or even over the long haul get good in football.  The other 10 schools are not going to let their football whims dictate the conference direction.  This is a basketball centric conference and everyone knows this.

The only bad part about UConn continuing at FBS is resources that could be used for hoops, but that’s a them problem.  My guess is they are closer to being FCS than FBS within 10 years, if not sooner. 

[brewcity77]

I'm looking 10 years behind and 10 years ahead. 10 years ago, this league included Syracuse, UConn, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia, & Notre Dame. It was the baddest of the bad. The greatest basketball conference ever assembled and I'm not sure there's ever been a cohesive argument against that.

Now we've replaced those schools with Butler, Creighton, and Xavier. Can you imagine if I told you that back then? Butler at that point had 3 Sweet 16s in their history and never been further than that. Creighton had 3 tournament wins in the 35 years before that. Xavier was by far the most recently accomplished.

Predicting where we are now 10 years ago would've sounded insane, but we ended up in the single most stable conference in college basketball because we eschewed football schools. We left them and are better for it. Trying to recapture the glory days of the Big East by adding UConn is aspiring to a goal that was never as good as what we have right now, and just because we didn't realize it then doesn't mean it isn't obvious now.

Let them burn and bury their football program first. None of this "park it" crap. None of the "we haven't decided what we'll do" lies. They didn't pour hundreds of millions into a football program to just not have a plan when the Big East comes calling for them to come back to basketball. They know what the plan is. They are lying about it. Whether that's just to the public or to everyone, they are absolutely lying about their plans for their football program. Come clean, then we'll see if they are worth the trouble.

[Cheeks]

I'm looking 10 years behind and 10 years ahead. 10 years ago, this league included Syracuse, UConn, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia, & Notre Dame. It was the baddest of the bad. The greatest basketball conference ever assembled and I'm not sure there's ever been a cohesive argument against that.

Now we've replaced those schools with Butler, Creighton, and Xavier. Can you imagine if I told you that back then? Butler at that point had 3 Sweet 16s in their history and never been further than that. Creighton had 3 tournament wins in the 35 years before that. Xavier was by far the most recently accomplished.

Predicting where we are now 10 years ago would've sounded insane, but we ended up in the single most stable conference in college basketball because we eschewed football schools. We left them and are better for it. Trying to recapture the glory days of the Big East by adding UConn is aspiring to a goal that was never as good as what we have right now, and just because we didn't realize it then doesn't mean it isn't obvious now.

Let them burn and bury their football program first. None of this "park it" crap. None of the "we haven't decided what we'll do" lies. They didn't pour hundreds of millions into a football program to just not have a plan when the Big East comes calling for them to come back to basketball. They know what the plan is. They are lying about it. Whether that's just to the public or to everyone, they are absolutely lying about their plans for their football program. Come clean, then we'll see if they are worth the trouble.

Many knew the Big East of the mid to late 2000’s was a temporary venture.  The swirl in the background was always going on.  One of the main reasons we got into the conference was due to the insecurity and instability.

I don’t fault you for being concerned and not k owing the future, but I think the proxies you are using are not comparable.  UConn has no football history sans a Fiesta Bowl which was a freak situation that they got in.  Terrible recruiting base, tepid at best support, a region of the country that doesn’t give a crap about football.....I just don’t see the comparison at all to Pitt (Heisman winners, a national title, national rankings) or Syracuse or West Virginia.  Just no comparison of any kind on the football front.

[brewcity77]

Just no comparison of any kind on the football front.

Then let them burn it to the ground. Raze the program, join the Big East. I don't think that's unreasonable. If their program is as bad as you suggest, moving and committing to an eternity in FCS would be a good thing.

[Cheeks]

Then let them burn it to the ground. Raze the program, join the Big East. I don't think that's unreasonable. If their program is as bad as you suggest, moving and committing to an eternity in FCS would be a good thing.

My guess is politically that is untenable....hopefully that doesn’t get me a temp ban here.

A lot of money was poured into football, stadium, coaching staff, etc, and just burning things to the ground is not what pols do very often.  Usually it is double down and then triple down for all too many of them. Why would this be different?

[Billy Hoyle]

I don't see how this is anything but a positive. They may not share the private, religious identity but they're as Big East as it gets. Plus losing a crap buy game is always a good thing for this STH.

I'm sure the league will protect itself in the event they leave. And even then, I don't think it'll leave much of a mark.

You’re still getting a crap buy game. You’re losing Vandy, Kansas State and other home and home games. Just the financial reality.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I'm curious if Mr. Nielsen or anyone else here has the UConn men's TV ratings for the past couple of seasons, and could perhaps compare them to the ratings for the current 10 BE teams. If UConn is in the middle to upper portion despite playing an AAC schedule, that would be a clear indicator that their men's program would help.

Early games last November at MSG on espn2 versus Syracuse & Iowa rated good for college hoops standards. Same with a game vs FSU. UConn vs Villanova on CBS did very well.

UConn has been down for three years. I'm sure the conference and FOX Sports know what a good UConn team did in the past versus versus the current conference members.

[Johnny B]

200 votes. Do we have any data on polls of scoop history. Have we broken a record?

[Herman Cain]

200 votes. Do we have any data on polls of scoop history. Have we broken a record?

Good polling results.

This one got a lot of responses:
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58467.0