Womens Soccer Championship.

[Cheeks]

I have not followed tennis that much, but do male tennis players make more or the same as female tennis players? If the male players make more I wonder why that would be as it seems to me that both men and women get equal exposure at the big 4 tennis events. Are ticket prices different for men vs women at these events? Are TV rights distributed equally between the men and women?

Depends.  Grand slams it is, even though viewership for the men's events is higher usually (that's structural sexism right there).  There's a reason the men play on Sunday and the women on Saturday....some of it historical, but also linked to $$.


You guys want to help solve the women's World Cup Pay "disparity", then have the men and women play the World Cup at the same time, same venues in a package deal just like tennis does.  That way you bundle all the sales of tickets, sponsorships, tv rights at one time.  You have to buy both, cannot separate them out.  Now, in that situation the women will get more money mostly on the backs of the fees paid a for the men's rights, but t would solve the problem and take away the nonsensical arguments people are making that don't understand rights fees, $$$, or want to make hysterical comments not grounded in dollars and cents.  It also gives the feel gooders what they want.  The only "losers" in this is the men on a percentage basis, but the hope would be that by combining you grow the pie big enough to make them whole while also massively exploding the women's payouts.

Not going to happen, but that solves much of the problem.


Done....I have a eulogy to write, and this is about as stressful a thing as I have ever done....want to get it right.  Peace. Out.

[Herman Cain]

Want to comment here but didn't have a good post to respond to. I enjoy and respect woman athletes.  I like the fact that there are numerous woman's collegiate teams and  that womans professional leagues have developed over the years.

I don't however believe in "pay equality" . Athletics is the last bastion in society where merit counts the most.

Have had experience with a number of professional sports owners and leagues over the years. I can safely say if woman can bring value they will get paid. In fact, one of the leagues I worked with was the Womans Tennis Association. Womans Tennis pay their major champions as much as the men. In fact overall the woman are more popular than the men and are compensated accordingly.

[rocket surgeon]

Lol.  No it isn't, it is based on economic facts.

Lay out your case on why it is sexist....try to take emotion out of it for a minute and use facts.  Please, looking forward to your reasons.  Here's your chance.

well. but, but , umm, hang on...wait, yeah, well, damn it was right on the tip of my tongue,  do-do do, dah dah dah, i'll probably remember it after i walk out the room, hey,  if it ain't sexism, it's gotta be one of those 'isms, I have a toothache?

[jesmu84]

Want to comment here but didn't have a good post to respond to. I enjoy and respect woman athletes.  I like the fact that there are numerous woman's collegiate teams and  that womans professional leagues have developed over the years.

I don't however believe in "pay equality" . Athletics is the last bastion in society where merit counts the most.

Have had experience with a number of professional sports owners and leagues over the years. I can safely say if woman can bring value they will get paid. In fact, one of the leagues I worked with was the Womans Tennis Association. Womans Tennis pay their major champions as much as the men. In fact overall the woman are more popular than the men and are compensated accordingly.

Did you get the young ones intentionally drunk so as to have sex with them?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Define economically feasible.

Every person will have a different definition. I think it is fair to say that it is somewhere between more than what pro leagues are doing now and less than equal pay.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

well. but, but , umm, hang on...wait, yeah, well, damn it was right on the tip of my tongue,  do-do do, dah dah dah, i'll probably remember it after i walk out the room, hey,  if it ain't sexism, it's gotta be one of those 'isms, I have a toothache?

Several people have offered answers to his question so I'm not sure why the sarcasm.

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?

[forgetful]

Fair, I'm reacting to the general mixing of international soccer and US soccer both within this thread and with the public/media discussion. If we are discussing salary/revenue for US Women Soccer vs US Men Soccer I think you have a valid point, though I'm not privy to all the USSF revenue models so I don't know what US women are generating versus men but either way from an investment standpoint the US women should be getting at least the same as men IMO. Even if the women weren't this good, as a policy USSF should be investing equally in both because they have to grow the game for everybody if they want to succeed in the men's game.

However, we muddy the waters when we talk about the women and men at the international level from a pay/revenue standpoint. Example, I've continually seen the reporting around the 2022 Men's reward pool being at $440M where the women's pool is going to be at $60M in 2023. It is pointed at as a glaring example of inequality but at the international level the women's WC generates significantly less eyeballs/revenue than does the men's tournament. The US is by far the highest viewership of the women's game, I know England had record viewership this WC, but overall it is miniscual compared to the men's tournament. There are all sorts of reasons for that both cultural and quality in nature that should be addressed but it is what it is right now. At the international level, women get a higher share of the reported revenue in the reward pool than do the men and it is split amongst fewer players.

For me it comes down to the US women are underpaid and the international women's programs are probably fairly compensated at this time though I would certainly welcome more investment from FIFA in the women's game so that it can be more competitive. Anything else is just one faction or the other trying to "win the argument"

Agreed. After I wrote the last post, I realized we were agreeing more than we were disagreeing. But not necessarily having a meeting of the minds on the groundwork of the discussion.

For those wondering. Here is a link that outlines revenue, and an associated link to a WSJ article also examining audited revenue statements from the USSF indicating Women earn more.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/us-womens-soccer-games-now-generate-more-revenue-than-mens.html

A key note, Chico's likes to claim that since they bundle media deals and licensing deals, "one can't determine who generates more revenue". He uses that as support that the men really earn more.

Well, the women draw bigger audiences, both on television and at the gate. So they are much more desirable for advertisers. Unless advertisers suddenly prefer to pay more for smaller audiences, it is pretty simple to see what generates more revenue for US media rights.

Similar for licensing deals. The audience is there for the women. They are driving licensing deal revenue also.

Yet, they are paid less, because...?

[rocket surgeon]

Several people have offered answers to his question so I'm not sure why the sarcasm.

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?

not in all situations tamu-supply and demand as has been mentioned and rightly so.  just because one event appears more popular at the moment doesn't automatically bring it up to the level of the other.  are we sexist as a society because we favor NBA over WNBA? why do the woman warriors play in the Al and not FISERV like the guys?  the pay scale isn't sexist, the paying(or not paying) customers are sexist.  if only we would all go to ALL of the events and pay equal or more amounts to each, right?  it is what it is.  why do more people go to see female singer x over male singer y?  sexism?  many examples to be made. 

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Ticker tape parade today in NYC.

[MU82]

The pay in the tennis grand slams is now equal, but that's a relatively recent development. Wimbledon was the last holdout, when it made the prize money equal in 2007.

And here, one might have been able to make a case that men "deserve" more because they have to play best 3-of-5 while women play 2-of-3. So a men's match can take 4 or 5 hours, double the court time of even a long women's match.

Having said that, glad they made the pay equal. It takes the same amount of training and the same degree of sacrifice for a woman to be great at tennis.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

not in all situations tamu-supply and demand as has been mentioned and rightly so.  just because one event appears more popular at the moment doesn't automatically bring it up to the level of the other.  are we sexist as a society because we favor NBA over WNBA? why do the woman warriors play in the Al and not FISERV like the guys?  the pay scale isn't sexist, the paying(or not paying) customers are sexist.  if only we would all go to ALL of the events and pay equal or more amounts to each, right?  it is what it is.  why do more people go to see female singer x over male singer y?  sexism?  many examples to be made.

So you admit more people like watching men's athletics and that women play in worse facilities than men. Those are two of the many examples of how the status quo favors male athletes over female athletes.

Again, no one is calling you or any other person a sexist. No one is even saying that you or anyone else is acting sexist. The comment is that the current system gives significantly more advantages to male athletes than to female athletes. That is institutionalized sexism.

No one is disputing the economics. But just because something is economically sound doesn't mean it isn't also sexist.

I also have no idea what you are talking about with female singers. Amongst the most popular singers today, the vast majority are male. This article is from early 2018 so it's a tad bit dated: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/arts/music/music-industry-gender-study-women-artists-producers.html

[muwarrior69]

So you admit more people like watching men's athletics and that women play in worse facilities than men. Those are two of the many examples of how the status quo favors male athletes over female athletes.

Again, no one is calling you or any other person a sexist. No one is even saying that you or anyone else is acting sexist. The comment is that the current system gives significantly more advantages to male athletes than to female athletes. That is institutionalized sexism.

No one is disputing the economics. But just because something is economically sound doesn't mean it isn't also sexist. Does institutional sexism run both ways?

I also have no idea what you are talking about with female singers. Amongst the most popular singers today, the vast majority are male. This article is from 2017 so it's a few years old: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/arts/music/music-industry-gender-study-women-artists-producers.html

Is it sexist that more women are enrolled in college than men? Is it sexist that boys are not treated the same as girls in k-12 education?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

[The Sultan]

Is it sexist that more women are enrolled in college than men? Is it sexist that boys are not treated the same as girls in k-12 education?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

No and maybe.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is it sexist that more women are enrolled in college than men? Is it sexist that boys are not treated the same as girls in k-12 education?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

What Fluffy said. I would need to know what you mean by "not treated the same."

And what does this have to do with the conversation we were having?

[Jay Bee]

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?

Do men generally not play better than women in soccer? What would happen if every country's best men played the best women... and why should that not matter?

[The Sultan]

Do men generally not play better than women in soccer? What would happen if every country's best men played the best women... and why should that not matter?

Because that's not how competitions are held.  There are Men's Championships and Women's Championships. 

[forgetful]

What Fluffy said. I would need to know what you mean by "not treated the same."

And what does this have to do with the conversation we were having?

His statement was relevant to the topic of institutionalized sexism in this country.

And some of the origins for what I think he is referring to are examples of institutionalized sexism.

Agree though in not relevant to the issues regarding US soccer.

[mu03eng]

not in all situations tamu-supply and demand as has been mentioned and rightly so.  just because one event appears more popular at the moment doesn't automatically bring it up to the level of the other.  are we sexist as a society because we favor NBA over WNBA? why do the woman warriors play in the Al and not FISERV like the guys?  the pay scale isn't sexist, the paying(or not paying) customers are sexist.  if only we would all go to ALL of the events and pay equal or more amounts to each, right?  it is what it is.  why do more people go to see female singer x over male singer y?  sexism?  many examples to be made.

This is a classic example of emotional reaction to a topic because you feel it's an attack. A lot of the -isms we face in the US today are not intentional nor anyone's "fault" but they are inherent biases none the less. As part of our evolution as a society I think it's important to recognize bias where it exists and make reasonable attempts to limit/eliminate the bias. I'm advocating for equal opportunity not equal results.

[mu03eng]

Do men generally not play better than women in soccer? What would happen if every country's best men played the best women... and why should that not matter?

I'll lean into where I think you are going. Let's assume that 99 out of 100 that the best men's team can beat the best women's team which very well may have to do with physical differences in the genders, what does a men's team beating a women's team have to do with the economic viability of the women's program. Just because we've been institutionalized (generalization coming) to like men's sports better than women's it does not mean that women's sports can't be just as economically viable as men's sports. In the current culture it is not as economically as viable but that in part of because of the institutional sexism that exists(which is really no ones fault just what has happened over the last 100 years of sport).

[MU82]

This is a classic example of emotional reaction to a topic because you feel it's an attack. A lot of the -isms we face in the US today are not intentional nor anyone's "fault" but they are inherent biases none the less. As part of our evolution as a society I think it's important to recognize bias where it exists and make reasonable attempts to limit/eliminate the bias. I'm advocating for equal opportunity not equal results.

This is an excellent comment, mu03.

There actually are Americans who don't believe there has been (and continues to be) institutional, systemic bias against blacks. It's exhausting to watch them go through the mental gymnastics denying it.

[forgetful]

This is a classic example of emotional reaction to a topic because you feel it's an attack. A lot of the -isms we face in the US today are not intentional nor anyone's "fault" but they are inherent biases none the less. As part of our evolution as a society I think it's important to recognize bias where it exists and make reasonable attempts to limit/eliminate the bias. I'm advocating for equal opportunity not equal results.

Agree 100%.

[Jay Bee]

I'll lean into where I think you are going. Let's assume that 99 out of 100 that the best men's team can beat the best women's team which very well may have to do with physical differences in the genders, what does a men's team beating a women's team have to do with the economic viability of the women's program.

What if someone asked you what is sexist about saying, "I'm OK with the better athletes & performers (men) getting paid more because they're better at the sport"?

Is "better players get better pay" sexist, or is it inherently fair?

[LAZER]

Several people have offered answers to his question so I'm not sure why the sarcasm.

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?

I don't think so.  If people were not supporting women's sports specifically and only because they were women, I would say it is.  Is the Champions Tour economics vs the PGA is an example of ageism? Is the Maccabi Games economics vs the Olympics antisemitism?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't think so.  If people were not supporting women's sports specifically and only because they were women, I would say it is.

Again, no one is saying any individual is sexist, so it has nothing to do with why individual people are not supporting women's sports. We are saying that the system the status quo makes it much easier for male athletes to make money/fame/recognition/etc than female athletes.

Is the Champions Tour economics vs the PGA is an example of ageism? Is the Maccabi Games economics vs the Olympics antisemitism?

No. People who are Jewish can compete in both the Maccabi games and the Olympics. And unless there is a max age I am not aware of, people who are older can compete in the PGA. Female athletes at this time do not have the option to play in male leagues.

[mu03eng]

What if someone asked you what is sexist about saying, "I'm OK with the better athletes & performers (men) getting paid more because they're better at the sport"?

Is "better players get better pay" sexist, or is it inherently fair?

The assumption that a man is better at anything let alone a sport is inherently sexist. If you say person A is better at their sport than person B regardless of gender there is nothing wrong with that even if each person is a different gender. It's the generalization that makes it sexist.