MUScoop

MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: muwarrior69 on June 11, 2019, 11:07:20 AM

Title: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on June 11, 2019, 11:07:20 AM
I thought I start a thread since the USA team plays their first game today at 3 pm EDT on FOX.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 11, 2019, 03:17:28 PM
Up 7-0 after scoring four goals in a six minute stretch in the second half. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Plaque Lives Matter! on June 11, 2019, 03:32:27 PM
Everytime i watch this team it blows me away the level difference of talent.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 11, 2019, 03:48:58 PM
Everytime i watch this team it blows me away the level difference of talent.

See that a lot in women’s sports.  The depth at the elite levels isn’t there.  It is why only a handful of teams win it each year in NCAA sports like basketball, etc.  It has gotten better with depth, but still a long way to go.

The 100th ranked men’s tennis player can knock off #1.  Same for men’s basketball or golf or you name it.  Just doesn’t happen on the women’s side.

This game is outright embarrassing.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 11, 2019, 03:57:20 PM
Holy hell, that’s an American football score.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Coleman on June 11, 2019, 03:58:41 PM
See that a lot in women’s sports.  The depth at the elite levels isn’t there.  It is why only a handful of teams win it each year in NCAA sports like basketball, etc.  It has gotten better with depth, but still a long way to go.

The 100th ranked men’s tennis player can knock off #1.  Same for men’s basketball or golf or you name it.  Just doesn’t happen on the women’s side.

This game is outright embarrassing.

Mostly, at least internationally, because very few countries actually dedicate resources to women's athletics.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 11, 2019, 05:59:57 PM
Mostly, at least internationally, because very few countries actually dedicate resources to women's athletics.

USWNT stalwarts are bringing in high 6, sometimes low 7 figures despite not making less than $50K in the domestic league while the Thai team they just demolished has their top players making less than $8K from the team a year.

Its less about depth and more about resources.  Look at India.  Less Olympic medals in 50 years total than Michael Phelps cause they don't support or fund it.  Yet their premiere sport they do love and support, cricket, they are an absolute powerhouse.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 11, 2019, 07:56:23 PM
Many causes, but resources or lack of them still contributes to the massive lack of quality depth.

I agree it is a major reason why.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 11, 2019, 09:23:02 PM
See that a lot in women’s sports.  The depth at the elite levels isn’t there.  It is why only a handful of teams win it each year in NCAA sports like basketball, etc.  It has gotten better with depth, but still a long way to go.

The 100th ranked men’s tennis player can knock off #1.  Same for men’s basketball or golf or you name it.  Just doesn’t happen on the women’s side.

This game is outright embarrassing.

A high school men's team would murder the best college women's team in basketball, possibly a wnba team.

It's closer in sports like golf and tennis.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 11, 2019, 09:25:49 PM
Mostly, at least internationally, because very few countries actually dedicate resources to women's athletics.

Coleman has it 100%. The US woman's team is by far the most funded, and last I checked (4 years) the only ones who were paid.

The Japanese team they played in the championship were essentially semi pro players who practiced after work. They even had to request off work to go to the world cup, and I believe a couple of players were denied.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: cheebs09 on June 12, 2019, 07:37:11 AM
See that a lot in women’s sports.  The depth at the elite levels isn’t there.  It is why only a handful of teams win it each year in NCAA sports like basketball, etc.  It has gotten better with depth, but still a long way to go.

The 100th ranked men’s tennis player can knock off #1.  Same for men’s basketball or golf or you name it.  Just doesn’t happen on the women’s side.

This game is outright embarrassing.

I would disagree on tennis. Nadal, Djokovic, and Federer have won something like 52 of the last 60 majors. Serena has been pretty dominant, but I feel like there are far more upsets in women’s tennis.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 12, 2019, 09:42:35 AM
Any y'all heer woodant like ta due Alex Morgan, hey?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on June 12, 2019, 10:49:47 AM
Coleman has it 100%. The US woman's team is by far the most funded, and last I checked (4 years) the only ones who were paid.

The Japanese team they played in the championship were essentially semi pro players who practiced after work. They even had to request off work to go to the world cup, and I believe a couple of players were denied.

Guys will use any reason to justify being bested by women.  USMNT just needs to step up.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 11:53:47 AM
Guys will use any reason to justify being bested by women.  USMNT just needs to step up.

I truly hope this is sarcastic. USMNT would step it up fine if they played against Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands, Haiti, and then say Poland, South Korea, and Ivory Coast every year.  Cause thats the discrepancy in resources and funding.  The USWNT is incredible, amazing to watch, and as good an ambassador to youth soccer and girls in sport as you can get.  But the constant comparisons to the mens team is tiresome.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 12, 2019, 12:00:40 PM
I truly hope this is sarcastic. USMNT would step it up fine if they played against Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands, Haiti, and then say Poland, South Korea, and Ivory Coast every year.  Cause thats the discrepancy in resources and funding.  The USWNT is incredible, amazing to watch, and as good an ambassador to youth soccer and girls in sport as you can get.  But the constant comparisons to the mens team is tiresome.

Except Poland, South Korea and Ivory Coast would probably beat the US right now.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 12:06:59 PM
Except Poland, South Korea and Ivory Coast would probably beat the US right now.

Yea, I was thinking the standard USMNT, not the current Berhalter get whomped by Venezuela disarray
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on June 12, 2019, 12:23:06 PM
I truly hope this is sarcastic. USMNT would step it up fine if they played against Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands, Haiti, and then say Poland, South Korea, and Ivory Coast every year.  Cause thats the discrepancy in resources and funding.  The USWNT is incredible, amazing to watch, and as good an ambassador to youth soccer and girls in sport as you can get.  But the constant comparisons to the mens team is tiresome.

Take it from someone who is Male and has scrimmaged the likes of Julie Foudy, Aly Wagner, and Abby Wambauch.....the women could absolutely beat the men. Yes, men have some physical advantages on the field but almost universally the womens players have better touch, control, etc. The US women are the absolute cream of the athletic crop whereas USMNT is generally at least a 3rd tier athletic talent.

I was a 17 year old ODP hot shot that got absolutely destroyed by Aly Wagner a couple of times. The women can absolutely play with the men.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 12, 2019, 12:27:26 PM
Take it from someone who is Male and has scrimmaged the likes of Julie Foudy, Aly Wagner, and Abby Wambauch.....the women could absolutely beat the men. Yes, men have some physical advantages on the field but almost universally the womens players have better touch, control, etc. The US women are the absolute cream of the athletic crop whereas USMNT is generally at least a 3rd tier athletic talent.

I was a 17 year old ODP hot shot that got absolutely destroyed by Aly Wagner a couple of times. The women can absolutely play with the men.

I have never scrimmaged any of those women, and am by no means a soccer expert.  I am, however, extremely skeptical of your claim.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on June 12, 2019, 12:40:33 PM
I truly hope this is sarcastic. USMNT would step it up fine if they played against Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands, Haiti, and then say Poland, South Korea, and Ivory Coast every year.  Cause thats the discrepancy in resources and funding.  The USWNT is incredible, amazing to watch, and as good an ambassador to youth soccer and girls in sport as you can get.  But the constant comparisons to the mens team is tiresome.

I just said it to get a rise out of some of you, and apparently, it worked.

Also yeah, I know firsthand that guys hate it when a woman is better than them in sports.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on June 12, 2019, 12:42:30 PM
I truly hope this is sarcastic. USMNT would step it up fine if they played against Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands, Haiti, and then say Poland, South Korea, and Ivory Coast every year.  Cause thats the discrepancy in resources and funding.  The USWNT is incredible, amazing to watch, and as good an ambassador to youth soccer and girls in sport as you can get.  But the constant comparisons to the mens team is tiresome.

you mean like the time the USMNT with a World Cup berth on the line played the backups of an already eliminated and nothing to play for Trinidad and Tobago squad and kicked their.... oh, wait, never mind.

And as much as I enjoy men's soccer, I enjoy even more the lack of diving and players acting like they've been shot in the women's game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 12, 2019, 12:48:34 PM
I just said it to get a rise out of some of you, and apparently, it worked.

Also yeah, I know firsthand that some guys hate it when a woman is better than them in sports.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 12:55:25 PM
Take it from someone who is Male and has scrimmaged the likes of Julie Foudy, Aly Wagner, and Abby Wambauch.....the women could absolutely beat the men. Yes, men have some physical advantages on the field but almost universally the womens players have better touch, control, etc. The US women are the absolute cream of the athletic crop whereas USMNT is generally at least a 3rd tier athletic talent.

I was a 17 year old ODP hot shot that got absolutely destroyed by Aly Wagner a couple of times. The women can absolutely play with the men.

So because you, as a HS senior, got beat by a top 3 US women's player in her prime, the Women's team could thus beat the men...ok.  3rd tier athletic talent is also an absolute joke of a statement.

I just said it to get a rise out of some of you, and apparently, it worked.

Also yeah, I know firsthand that guys hate it when a woman is better than them in sports.

Get off your high horse.  There are some amazing shooters and overall ballers in the WNBA who would probably fleece me 10-0 in 1v1, that doesn't mean they could cut it in the NBA or should be compared to NBA players.  Serena Williams could murder me in tennis, that doesn't mean she'd be a top 25 player on the Men's tour.  Thats not anti-women or women's sports.  Its just factual.

I have absolutely no problem calling out and acknowledging excellence in women's sports.  I have two different USWNT jerseys and have a good friend who plays in the NWSL.  I have an issue with the constant need to take shots at the USMNT as a result of USWNT success.  They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.  Its as tired as the old farts complaining that the women celebrated too much yesterday.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on June 12, 2019, 01:14:48 PM
So because you, as a HS senior, got beat by a top 3 US women's player in her prime, the Women's team could thus beat the men...ok.  3rd tier athletic talent is also an absolute joke of a statement.

Get off your high horse.  There are some amazing shooters and overall ballers in the WNBA who would probably fleece me 10-0 in 1v1, that doesn't mean they could cut it in the NBA or should be compared to NBA players.  Serena Williams could murder me in tennis, that doesn't mean she'd be a top 25 player on the Men's tour.  Thats not anti-women or women's sports.  Its just factual.

I have absolutely no problem calling out and acknowledging excellence in women's sports.  I have two different USWNT jerseys and have a good friend who plays in the NWSL.  I have an issue with the constant need to take shots at the USMNT as a result of USWNT success.  They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.  Its as tired as the old farts complaining that the women celebrated too much yesterday.


Hee hee, it's working even better than I thought.... 

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/XGJY5KLuazndauTfZP/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115d0140c05439337441de533a&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Coleman on June 12, 2019, 01:17:55 PM
I just said it to get a rise out of some of you, and apparently, it worked.

This is the textbook definition of trolling, just FYI, but

(https://media.giphy.com/media/NCjISbEPFxm48/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 12, 2019, 01:18:11 PM
The ladies did OK yesterday
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on June 12, 2019, 01:20:25 PM
This is the textbook definition of trolling, just FYI

Oooh, my first one!

Also, it was meant to be gentle teasing.  I didn't think anyone would hit the bait as hard as they did.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 12, 2019, 01:28:17 PM
Oooh, my first one!

Also, it was meant to be gentle teasing.  I didn't think anyone would hit the bait as hard as they did.

Have you scooped?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 12, 2019, 01:33:02 PM
  I have an issue with the constant need to take shots at the USMNT as a result of USWNT success.  They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.  Its as tired as the old farts complaining that the women celebrated too much yesterday.

So, the USNWT is dominant because it's far better funded than the great majority of its competitors.
But, if such funding is as key to a program's success as you claim, then why does the USMNT consistently underperform when compared to lesser funded rivals? And why is it unfair to criticize the USMNT for squandering its resources, in light of the USWNT's success over its poorer competitors?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 12, 2019, 01:37:36 PM
I've always been amazed by the certainty that some people declare that "X female athlete or team would get destroyed in Y men's sport." I think in a lot of cases it's true, especially on a peer to peer level, but I've seen claims before that men's high school teams and groups of amateur men could destroy professional women's teams that are asserted with absolute confidence. Maybe it is true but to say it with such certainty despite no proof is odd to me. The most famous example we have is the Battle of the Sexes between Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King and the female athlete won in that case. I wonder if these assertions are as true as people think or if they are just assuming.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on June 12, 2019, 01:40:20 PM
So because you, as a HS senior, got beat by a top 3 US women's player in her prime, the Women's team could thus beat the men...ok.  3rd tier athletic talent is also an absolute joke of a statement.

This is not about name dropping or bragging this is intended to provide bonafides.....I was on track for a while to play on the U-17 national team, I played the likes of Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, Aly Wagner, etc. when we were all in middle school/high school. I trained in Germany for a summer as part of their development program for the Bundesliga.....when I tell you that the women can compete with the men, it's from first hand experience.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 12, 2019, 01:41:40 PM
I keep flashing back to freshman year.   One of the guys from my floor was dating a basketball player from the women's team.   He was  about 6'1 and had played high school basketball.   She was also about 6'1 and, as a freshman, not a starter, IIRC.    I watched them play one one one and she crushed him.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 12, 2019, 01:45:25 PM
A high school men's team would murder the best college women's team in basketball, possibly a wnba team.

https://www.sbnation.com/wnba/2019/5/23/18636639/wnba-male-practice-squads
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 01:54:01 PM
So, the USNWT is dominant because it's far better funded than the great majority of its competitors.
But, if such funding is as key to a program's success as you claim, then why does the USMNT consistently underperform when compared to lesser funded rivals? And why is it unfair to criticize the USMNT for squandering its resources, in light of the USWNT's success over its poorer competitors?

I think the Women’s team is run much better as a developmental progression. The US struggles with a lot of political drama whether it be pressure to cater to the MLS, internal vs external development, etc...

The other elephant in the room is soccer’s appeal in the US vs other countries, men vs women. I’d argue it’s the premiere women’s sport in the US, especially following the 1998 Women’s WC. It’s nowhere near that for men. Compare that to a lesser funded national team like Honduras or Costa Rica, where every little boy in that country is dreaming of playing in the WC and that bleeds through. It’s certainly changing in the US but that doesn’t happen overnight
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on June 12, 2019, 01:57:36 PM


The other elephant in the room is soccer’s appeal in the US vs other countries, men vs women. I’d argue it’s the premiere women’s sport in the US, especially following the 1998 Women’s WC. It’s nowhere near that for men. Compare that to a lesser funded national team like Honduras or Costa Rica, where every little boy in that country is dreaming of playing in the WC and that bleeds through. It’s certainly changing in the US but that doesn’t happen overnight

Yep.  Plenty of boys that play football, hockey or lacrosse in the U.S. would be playing soccer if they were born in another country.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 01:58:43 PM
This is not about name dropping or bragging this is intended to provide bonafides.....I was on track for a while to play on the U-17 national team, I played the likes of Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, Aly Wagner, etc. when we were all in middle school/high school. I trained in Germany for a summer as part of their development program for the Bundesliga.....when I tell you that the women can compete with the men, it's from first hand experience.

Thats very cool.  And all well and good.  But again, thats like saying cause Breanna Stewart competed well against a top 150 recruit during his AAU season, the WNBA All Star team is beating a team of NBA players.

Also, not for nothing, FC Dallas' youth squad beat the USWNT a few years ago, I wanna say 2017?  This whole argument is just apples to oranges for me, thats all. It doesn't make me anti-women, or a hater, I just think its silly and unfair to both parties.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 12, 2019, 02:04:21 PM
I think the Women’s team is run much better as a developmental progression. The US struggles with a lot of political drama whether it be pressure to cater to the MLS, internal vs external development, etc...

The other elephant in the room is soccer’s appeal in the US vs other countries, men vs women. I’d argue it’s the premiere women’s sport in the US, especially following the 1998 Women’s WC. It’s nowhere near that for men. Compare that to a lesser funded national team like Honduras or Costa Rica, where every little boy in that country is dreaming of playing in the WC and that bleeds through. It’s certainly changing in the US but that doesn’t happen overnight

Costa Rica has a population under 5 million.
Even if only one in every 100 American boys focused on soccer compared to every single Costa Rican boy (which, of course, isn't true), the U.S. would still be drawing from a much larger player pool. And that doesn't even address the many, many other advantages bestowed upon American athletes.

Why is it hard to admit the USMNT vastly underperforms and the success of the USNWT simply highlights that?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 02:12:46 PM
Costa Rica has a population under 5 million.
Even if only one in every 100 American boys focused on soccer compared to every single Costa Rican boy (which, of course, isn't true), the U.S. would still be drawing from a much larger player pool. And that doesn't even address the many, many other advantages bestowed upon American athletes.

Why is it hard to admit the USMNT vastly underperforms and the success of the USNWT simply highlights that?

Because I don't think its as simple as people make it out.  Its more than just funding and resources.  I think US Soccer (the org) from the Men's side is a joke.  Its been run incompetently for a long time in many ways, but they still have been fighting an uphill battle, even if doing things "the right way" to make the US a viable world power in the sport.

The Women have a much more level playing field, before resources, thus they were primed to take advantage.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on June 12, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
https://www.sbnation.com/wnba/2019/5/23/18636639/wnba-male-practice-squads
I played on one of those practice squads when I lived in Miami. We beat the WNBA team pretty easily in scrimmage. The guys on the team were nothing special.

The women were HIGHLY skilled, but could not compete with speed and strength of the men.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on June 12, 2019, 02:46:32 PM

Also, not for nothing, FC Dallas' youth squad beat the USWNT a few years ago, I wanna say 2017?  This whole argument is just apples to oranges for me, thats all. It doesn't make me anti-women, or a hater, I just think its silly and unfair to both parties.

Yes, in an informal scrimmage in 2015.  Using that as your standard is like when D1 teams lose to lower division teams in exhibition games or when USL teams beat Premiership teams on a US Tour (e.g. Minnesota United knocking off Swansea).
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Mr. Nielsen on June 12, 2019, 03:09:26 PM
Any y'all heer woodant like ta due Alex Morgan, hey?

(http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3819957/baby.gif)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on June 12, 2019, 03:14:21 PM
remember how good michelle wie was?  they began to rave about her like tiger at the age of 4.  someone thought she was soooo good that she should play in the PGA at the age of 16.  i believe that ruined her.  she is competitive and fun to watch(heyoooo) but has been passed by, by many others.  she has won 5 events total, including 1 major(2014 u.s. women's open)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 12, 2019, 03:29:40 PM
https://www.sbnation.com/wnba/2019/5/23/18636639/wnba-male-practice-squads

Gives me a link about them struggling to find men to play. Most of those dudes never played highschool ball.

Besides that, bringing this up proves my point even more. The WNBA teams are looking to find MEN to practice against? Why, because they have enough strength, speed, and talent to play against the top 0.01% of woman. Not 1 of those guys played a lick of even D2 college ball.

From your article "the strength and speed that’s often more easily cultivated in men helps push even the best women athletes in perfecting their game"
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 12, 2019, 03:32:51 PM
Yes, in an informal scrimmage in 2015.  Using that as your standard is like when D1 teams lose to lower division teams in exhibition games or when USL teams beat Premiership teams on a US Tour (e.g. Minnesota United knocking off Swansea).

It was a tune up for the Algarve Cup in 2017. Not a tour of the US designed to sell merch and give the squad a US vacay. Do you think a youth team is beating their MLS parent club, much less the national team, even informally? Nope

Regardless, France and Norway in a really good one. Can’t wait for US-Sweden on the 20th. France/US would be a dream matchup
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 12, 2019, 03:33:24 PM
Costa Rica has a population under 5 million.
Even if only one in every 100 American boys focused on soccer compared to every single Costa Rican boy (which, of course, isn't true), the U.S. would still be drawing from a much larger player pool. And that doesn't even address the many, many other advantages bestowed upon American athletes.

Why is it hard to admit the USMNT vastly underperforms and the success of the USNWT simply highlights that?

And how many of those 1 in 100 are athletically top notch? How many of those 1 in 100 decides to stay with soccer. It's not opinion or hyperbole to say that a vast majority of Americans play baseball, basketball, football, and hockey. Out of that vast majority, there are a very select few who have the ability to play these sports in college. Out of those select few, there are even fewer who will make money playing the sport. The pool gets very slim very fast. Now imagine that with your 1 in 100 claim, now knowing that 99% of the athletic kids are not playing soccer to begin with.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 12, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
I've always been amazed by the certainty that some people declare that "X female athlete or team would get destroyed in Y men's sport." I think in a lot of cases it's true, especially on a peer to peer level, but I've seen claims before that men's high school teams and groups of amateur men could destroy professional women's teams that are asserted with absolute confidence. Maybe it is true but to say it with such certainty despite no proof is odd to me. The most famous example we have is the Battle of the Sexes between Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King and the female athlete won in that case. I wonder if these assertions are as true as people think or if they are just assuming.

I'd say a 30 year old woman beating a 53 year old man is not very surprising. I'd use this example instead:

"Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[56] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[57][56] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[58] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. With a broken wrist and a badly sprained ankle following a bar brawl he first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[56]Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"[59] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[56]"
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on June 12, 2019, 04:00:17 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/u-women-hockey-team-scrimmaging-against-high-school-170704740--oly.html
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 12, 2019, 04:26:45 PM
And how many of those 1 in 100 are athletically top notch? How many of those 1 in 100 decides to stay with soccer. It's not opinion or hyperbole to say that a vast majority of Americans play baseball, basketball, football, and hockey.

Actually, it would be opinion and hyperbole.

More American kids ages 6-12 play soccer than any other sport than baseball and basketball. Way more than hockey, and significantly more than tackle and flag football combined.
And it's certainly not the vast majority that plays any of these sports. The most popular team sport - basketball - only had 14.1 percent participation.  Baseball had 13.1 percent. soccer is third at 7.7 percent.

https://www.aspenprojectplay.org/kids-sports-participation-rates
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 12, 2019, 04:52:03 PM
This is not about name dropping or bragging this is intended to provide bonafides.....I was on track for a while to play on the U-17 national team, I played the likes of Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, Aly Wagner, etc. when we were all in middle school/high school. I trained in Germany for a summer as part of their development program for the Bundesliga.....when I tell you that the women can compete with the men, it's from first hand experience.

The ODP is no joke when it comes to US youth soccer, especially at U17.  This ain't the local youth league, it's the best kids in the country.

Did you play at MU?

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: #UnleashSean on June 12, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
Actually, it would be opinion and hyperbole.

More American kids ages 6-12 play soccer than any other sport than baseball and basketball. Way more than hockey, and significantly more than tackle and flag football combined.
And it's certainly not the vast majority that plays any of these sports. The most popular team sport - basketball - only had 14.1 percent participation.  Baseball had 13.1 percent. soccer is third at 7.7 percent.

https://www.aspenprojectplay.org/kids-sports-participation-rates

Yes sports are down on all levels, especially football. But since were not here talking about 6-12 year olds, that is disregarded eh?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 12, 2019, 06:04:48 PM
Actually, it would be opinion and hyperbole.

More American kids ages 6-12 play soccer than any other sport than baseball and basketball. Way more than hockey, and significantly more than tackle and flag football combined.
And it's certainly not the vast majority that plays any of these sports. The most popular team sport - basketball - only had 14.1 percent participation.  Baseball had 13.1 percent. soccer is third at 7.7 percent.

https://www.aspenprojectplay.org/kids-sports-participation-rates

Our problem is not participation, but rather structural. Germany reshaped their professional leagues down to the youngest ages to have a unified system that fed into Der Mannschaft. England, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, all the big Euro nations have pro clubs that develop youth talent. We don't have near the universal commitment & organization.

Contrast that with the women's game, where Title IX insured more resources dedicated to women's sports than other nations. It gave us a leg up & the early dominance was paid forward with a strong culture of women's soccer, especially when the more traditional US sports (football, softball, until recently basketball) were lagging when the 1991 USWNT was winning the World Cup.

The men comparably suck because they lack the organization & structure the women have relative to their competition.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 12, 2019, 06:22:54 PM
Yes sports are down on all levels, especially football. But since were not here talking about 6-12 year olds, that is disregarded eh?

Since were talking about participation among "boys," the 6-12 age range seems spot on. Isn't that the age in which you want to start kids, identify the most talented among them and shift them into specialized programs? I mean, that's how every other country does it. If we wait until high school, it's way too late.
Anyhow, your point was ridiculous and disproved by the actual data.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 12, 2019, 06:41:57 PM
I've always been amazed by the certainty that some people declare that "X female athlete or team would get destroyed in Y men's sport." I think in a lot of cases it's true, especially on a peer to peer level, but I've seen claims before that men's high school teams and groups of amateur men could destroy professional women's teams that are asserted with absolute confidence. Maybe it is true but to say it with such certainty despite no proof is odd to me. The most famous example we have is the Battle of the Sexes between Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King and the female athlete won in that case. I wonder if these assertions are as true as people think or if they are just assuming.

First off, he won the first match against #1 ranked Margaret Court 6-2 and 6-1.

Later he lost to King....not apples to apples...and he was 55 years old playing a top 5 player in the world at age 29 in the prime of her career....huge difference.

Let’s take a look at the recent NCAA “women’s” track champion that last year competed as a male and was an absolute stiff, this year is now a “woman” and won the NCAA championship.  Interesting times.  I hope we aren’t in the process of making biological female athletes so damn frustrated by this stuff they no longer bother to participate. 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/3/cece-telfer-franklin-pierce-transgender-hurdler-wi/
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on June 12, 2019, 06:59:54 PM
Any y'all heer woodant like ta due Alex Morgan, hey?

scoring 5 times in 90 minutes has gotta be some kind of record for endurance, even if there was extra stoppage/injury time added on, eyn'a?   at least a break in between for a cigarette err something ;D
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 12, 2019, 07:00:14 PM
This is not about name dropping or bragging this is intended to provide bonafides.....I was on track for a while to play on the U-17 national team, I played the likes of Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, Aly Wagner, etc. when we were all in middle school/high school. I trained in Germany for a summer as part of their development program for the Bundesliga.....when I tell you that the women can compete with the men, it's from first hand experience.

I played against Erik Wynalda and Cobi Jones in high school.  Played in Hamburg, Germany back when it was West Germany...yes I am old, but was pretty good.  Would have walked on at MU if their coach wasn’t such an enormous prick who didn’t take walk ons.

Did a camp with Mia Hamm in the 90’s along with Christine Lilly and others.  They are great players, but no I do not agree they can play with the guys.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 12, 2019, 07:02:17 PM
It's really ridiculous that a topic devoted to the Women's World Cup devolves into a comparison of the Men's Team.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 12, 2019, 07:02:43 PM
Any y'all heer woodant like ta due Alex Morgan, hey?

She grew up playing in our local club team, Cypress Elite, just down the street.  Great player.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 12, 2019, 07:05:45 PM
It's really ridiculous that a topic devoted to the Women's World Cup devolves into a comparison of the Men's Team.

I think it was more about how the depth levels of women’s sports are much different.  That said, the women’s team and many supporters constantly compare themselves to the men’s team and say they should be paid the same, etc, etc.  So how is this different?  If the comparisons are made by the women’s team and others, seems only natural it would also come up in this thread in some context. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 12, 2019, 07:11:42 PM
I think it was more about how the depth levels of women’s sports are much different.  That said, the women’s team and many supporters constantly compare themselves to the men’s team and say they should be paid the same, etc, etc.  So how is this different?  If the comparisons are made by the women’s team and others, seems only natural it would also come up in this thread in some context. 


Come 2022, if the Men's Team makes the WC, I doubt there will be any comparisons to the women's team.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 12, 2019, 07:16:07 PM
So there were two notable records from the Thailand win.

First, the 13-0 margin broke the 11-0 margin set by Germany in 2007 & the 12 combined goals from a men's match, Austria 7-5 Switzerland in 1954. Regarding the women's record, Germany went on to win the World Cup.

Second, the 5 goals scored by Alex Morgan tied a record set in 1991 by Michelle Akers & matched on the men's side by Oleg Salenko in 1994. Regarding the women's record, Akers & USA went on to win the World Cup.

So two major scoring records, & the last time those records were set on the women's side, the record setting team went on to win the World Cup.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on June 12, 2019, 07:38:48 PM
It was a tune up for the Algarve Cup in 2017. Not a tour of the US designed to sell merch and give the squad a US vacay. Do you think a youth team is beating their MLS parent club, much less the national team, even informally? Nope

Regardless, France and Norway in a really good one. Can’t wait for US-Sweden on the 20th. France/US would be a dream matchup

2017, ok, otherwise:

“It's imperative to state that this 'game' between the USWNT and Dallas boys was not really a game at all. Before the official post was blocked it was described as a 'scrimmage' between the two squads, an informal practice.“

Anyone remember the college squad that beat the Dream Team in a practice, or when Greg Page knocked out Mike Tyson while sparring? We talkin bout practice. Not a game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 12, 2019, 07:50:35 PM
I know Michael Beasley coat Marquette a seed line
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on June 12, 2019, 08:00:48 PM
Our problem is not participation, but rather structural. Germany reshaped their professional leagues down to the youngest ages to have a unified system that fed into Der Mannschaft. England, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, all the big Euro nations have pro clubs that develop youth talent. We don't have near the universal commitment & organization.

Contrast that with the women's game, where Title IX insured more resources dedicated to women's sports than other nations. It gave us a leg up & the early dominance was paid forward with a strong culture of women's soccer, especially when the more traditional US sports (football, softball, until recently basketball) were lagging when the 1991 USWNT was winning the World Cup.

The men comparably suck because they lack the organization & structure the women have relative to their competition.

Amen
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 12, 2019, 09:09:29 PM
She grew up playing in our local club team, Cypress Elite, just down the street.  Great player.

Chicos. I'll give you props for trying to raise the bar over the unnatural carnal knowledgeing idiots
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 12, 2019, 10:39:33 PM
First off, he won the first match against #1 ranked Margaret Court 6-2 and 6-1.

Later he lost to King....not apples to apples...and he was 55 years old playing a top 5 player in the world at age 29 in the prime of her career....huge difference.

Let’s take a look at the recent NCAA “women’s” track champion that last year competed as a male and was an absolute stiff, this year is now a “woman” and won the NCAA championship.  Interesting times.  I hope we aren’t in the process of making biological female athletes so damn frustrated by this stuff they no longer bother to participate. 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/3/cece-telfer-franklin-pierce-transgender-hurdler-wi/

I'm aware of the details of the match. Like I said, I wasn't talking about peer to peer comparisons. I was referring to those who insist that no matter the age of the participants (like King vs. Riggs) and no matter the inexperience of the men playing, a male team/athlete will always destroy the female team/athlete.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 12, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Since were talking about participation among "boys," the 6-12 age range seems spot on. Isn't that the age in which you want to start kids, identify the most talented among them and shift them into specialized programs? I mean, that's how every other country does it. If we wait until high school, it's way too late.
Anyhow, your point was ridiculous and disproved by the actual data.

You must not be around youth sports much.  Kids are specializing at age 8.  Parents paying for private lessons, travel teams, etc.

There are U7 kids pitch tournaments in the Milwaukee area.  That's 6 and 7 year olds. 

I know a kid that played 180 baseball games in a calendar year.  At age 10 or 11.  Was on 2 or 3 summer teams, winter league, fall league.  He's a good ball player, but is that worth it?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on June 13, 2019, 08:02:12 AM
You must not be around youth sports much.  Kids are specializing at age 8.  Parents paying for private lessons, travel teams, etc.

There are U7 kids pitch tournaments in the Milwaukee area.  That's 6 and 7 year olds. 

I know a kid that played 180 baseball games in a calendar year.  At age 10 or 11.  Was on 2 or 3 summer teams, winter league, fall league.  He's a good ball player, but is that worth it?

Not if you are a parent that has to watch 180 games.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 13, 2019, 09:12:29 AM
Our problem is not participation, but rather structural. Germany reshaped their professional leagues down to the youngest ages to have a unified system that fed into Der Mannschaft. England, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, all the big Euro nations have pro clubs that develop youth talent. We don't have near the universal commitment & organization.

Contrast that with the women's game, where Title IX insured more resources dedicated to women's sports than other nations. It gave us a leg up & the early dominance was paid forward with a strong culture of women's soccer, especially when the more traditional US sports (football, softball, until recently basketball) were lagging when the 1991 USWNT was winning the World Cup.

The men comparably suck because they lack the organization & structure the women have relative to their competition.

There's a lot I agree with here, but I think by putting the blame on "structure," you're letting off the hook some of the bad decisions (and bad decision makers) along the way.
It wasn't structure that led to the hiring of Jurgen Klinsmann, and then resistance to to his ideas for overhauling the system. People made those choices.
It wasn't structure that led to the team laying an egg in the fall of 2017, it was poor decisions made by people.
Heck, going way back to the 1998 debacle, it wasn't the structure that failed the U.S. It was the decisions by the people in charge and the players.
So, yeah, there are definitely structural issues - and pay-to-play is the biggest of them - but pinning too much of the blame on structure removes too much responsibilities for the numerous gaffes people in power have made along the way.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 13, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
There's a lot I agree with here, but I think by putting the blame on "structure," you're letting off the hook some of the bad decisions (and bad decision makers) along the way.
It wasn't structure that led to the hiring of Jurgen Klinsmann, and then resistance to to his ideas for overhauling the system. People made those choices.
It wasn't structure that led to the team laying an egg in the fall of 2017, it was poor decisions made by people.
Heck, going way back to the 1998 debacle, it wasn't the structure that failed the U.S. It was the decisions by the people in charge and the players.
So, yeah, there are definitely structural issues - and pay-to-play is the biggest of them - but pinning too much of the blame on structure removes too much responsibilities for the numerous gaffes people in power have made along the way.

I don't disagree, but I think those are more linked than you're implying.  There is a lot of "this is the way we do things here" mentality, IMO, with how some of US Soccer operates.  US Soccer feels like a division of a successful company, but that division is getting destroyed against its competition but they refuse to adapt or mirror whats giving the competition the edge, and stick to their established way of doing things.  Both the structure and decision making is part of the same toxic tree.

I look at the Josh Sargent situation.  He made the smart decision to go to Europe to further develop but even that cant save him from domestic blunders like this International cycle.  That feels like both a structural and a mentality/decision problem to me.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 13, 2019, 10:42:53 AM
I added a response in the Futbol Talk thread. I don't want to further digress from what should be a good WWC discussion.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on June 13, 2019, 11:01:21 AM
Chile's defense was very organized against Sweden, although they benefited from the heavy rain.  If we knock in 5+ again I'll start to believe more of how good we are instead of how bad Thailand is.  Also if Sauerbrunn comes back and pushes Ertz into the midfield I'll be curious to see who gets pushed to the bench because Horan, Lavelle and Mewis all looked great, especially considering that they had combined for zero WWC appearances. 

For being considered contenders, none of France, Germany, or England have looked great yet.  They've gotten the job done thus far, but I am far from convinced (especially if the US continues to knock goals in for fun).
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 13, 2019, 06:36:54 PM

Come 2022, if the Men's Team makes the WC, I doubt there will be any comparisons to the women's team.

Oh I suspect there will be many because they are paid more than the women and the revenues generated by the men’s teams in FIFA dwarf the women’s side. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 13, 2019, 06:38:28 PM
You must not be around youth sports much.  Kids are specializing at age 8.  Parents paying for private lessons, travel teams, etc.

There are U7 kids pitch tournaments in the Milwaukee area.  That's 6 and 7 year olds. 

I know a kid that played 180 baseball games in a calendar year.  At age 10 or 11.  Was on 2 or 3 summer teams, winter league, fall league.  He's a good ball player, but is that worth it?

Tommy John surgeries for high school players is getting insane.  Way too much playing.  Out here where the weather is great, the number of games for travel ball has become obscene.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 14, 2019, 04:30:10 PM
How cute is Alex Morgan? Geez
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 05:16:02 PM
How cute is Alex Morgan? Geez

soccer player from LA Galaxy is her husband.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 14, 2019, 05:25:35 PM
soccer player from LA Galaxy is her husband.

Yep, thats why she pushed for a move to Orlando in the NWSL.  But that was a brief bit of unity, cause he's not that good and Orlando City kicked him to the curb.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 14, 2019, 09:52:10 PM
soccer player from LA Galaxy is her husband.

Married girl u say? Oooh yeah!!!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 16, 2019, 11:21:05 AM
Carli Lloyd continues to be absurdly talented and immune to the aging process.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 16, 2019, 12:14:29 PM
Carli Lloyd continues to be absurdly talented and immune to the aging process.

This is basically their second XI as well
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 16, 2019, 12:19:47 PM
This is basically their second XI as well

Chile's goalkeeper has been really good today. 3 sensational saves. It'll be interesting to see how they handle Sweden. Big step up in class.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 16, 2019, 12:25:13 PM
Chile's goalkeeper has been really good today. 3 sensational saves. It'll be interesting to see how they handle Sweden. Big step up in class.

Different coach, but I wonder if he will employ the Pia method vs the US. Just refuse to attack the entire match.

Is this their first match against each other since the 2016 Olympics?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 16, 2019, 12:31:52 PM
No, USA beat them in 2017 1-0. But in competitive matches, the US is on a 3-match winless streak against the Swedes. They lost in the 2011 WC group, drew in 2015, and Sweden knocked us out in penalties at the 2016 Olympics.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mikekinsellaMVP on June 17, 2019, 11:42:30 AM
Oh I suspect there will be many because they are paid more than the women and the revenues generated by the men’s teams in FIFA dwarf the women’s side.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 17, 2019, 11:58:10 AM
*golf clap*
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 17, 2019, 12:46:26 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600)

The article really only focuses on ticket sales revenue.  In a period where the USMNT hasn't played meaningful games in a few years and the USWNT is excelling.  Its interesting but an altogether misleading article.

Again, the USMNT stinks out loud right now, and the USWNT is one the most fun American representatives on an international stage since the Dream Team, but its purely an argument of economics and this article is taking some creative liberties.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 01:12:31 PM
The article really only focuses on ticket sales revenue.  In a period where the USMNT hasn't played meaningful games in a few years and the USWNT is excelling.  Its interesting but an altogether misleading article.

Again, the USMNT stinks out loud right now, and the USWNT is one the most fun American representatives on an international stage since the Dream Team, but its purely an argument of economics and this article is taking some creative liberties.

The period cited was the three years after the 2015 Women's World Cup.
In that time, competitive USMNT matches at home have included:
- Mexico (CONACAF Cup)
- Colombia (x2), Costa Rica, Paraguay, Ecuador and Argentina (Copa America)
- Two Gold Cups
- Six World Cup qualifiers

And that's not to mention friendlies against the likes of Brazil, Serbia, Ghana, Mexico, and Bosnia and Herzegovina ... matches that, while not "meaningful," should be expected to draw a crowd.

So, to dismiss these results as a result of a lack of meaningful games is altogether misleading.




Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 17, 2019, 02:04:37 PM
The period cited was the three years after the 2015 Women's World Cup.
In that time, competitive USMNT matches at home have included:
- Mexico (CONACAF Cup)
- Colombia (x2), Costa Rica, Paraguay, Ecuador and Argentina (Copa America)
- Two Gold Cups
- Six World Cup qualifiers

And that's not to mention friendlies against the likes of Brazil, Serbia, Ghana, Mexico, and Bosnia and Herzegovina ... matches that, while not "meaningful," should be expected to draw a crowd.

So, to dismiss these results as a result of a lack of meaningful games is altogether misleading.

Hand up, I completely forgot Copa America was in the US that year. I also didn’t believe the 2015 GC was included given the WWC overlap. So I was looking at a couple WC qualifiers, the Mexico match, and friendlies during a time when optimism about the USMNT was at a significant low.

Regardless, ticket revenue is still a metric that ignores the main drivers of revenue in sports today. There are AAA baseball teams that outdraw some MLB teams. That doesn’t mean those players should be making 7 figures

In WWC discussion, lot of analysts are predicting Sweden to park the bus in kinder terms. Really hope they are mistaken. Two of the premiere women’s teams in the world deserve an entertaining match, not Mourinho ball
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 02:12:58 PM
Regardless, ticket revenue is still a metric that ignores the main drivers of revenue in sports today. There are AAA baseball teams that outdraw some MLB teams. That doesn’t mean those players should be making 7 figures

That's fair. I'm not arguing the compensation issue, nor do I believe gate revenue alone should determine that.
But those numbers do at least contradict the notion that the men's revenues "dwarf" that of the women, at least here in the U.S.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 17, 2019, 04:01:44 PM
In WWC discussion, lot of analysts are predicting Sweden to park the bus in kinder terms. Really hope they are mistaken. Two of the premiere women’s teams in the world deserve an entertaining match, not Mourinho ball

That's how Sweden has been able to stick with us in the past. Even though they're a top-10 side, I think the talent gap is larger than that would normally indicate.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 17, 2019, 04:04:11 PM
Technically the right call, but a crappy way for Nigeria to lose.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 17, 2019, 04:11:22 PM
Technically the right call, but a crappy way for Nigeria to lose.   

If they're going to call that, they should also call the two French players in the box before the shot was taken.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MUBurrow on June 17, 2019, 05:20:06 PM
VAR is gross. Keepers coming off their line early has been a part of soccer since the beginning of time - if its not blatantly obvious, can't call it. VAR should be restricted to whether goals crossed the line and that's it. A very passionate argument might be able to talk me into offsides.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 17, 2019, 05:25:05 PM
It took VAR to get the PK called.    Then, VAR called the violation on the Nigerian goal keeper.    Odd that it would help out the home team. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on June 17, 2019, 06:17:13 PM
USA soccer prices out their own fans, and especially potential fans, for usmnt games. So unnatural carnal knowledgeing stupid
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 17, 2019, 10:58:47 PM
If they're going to call that, they should also call the two French players in the box before the shot was taken.

Agreed.  VAR should have made the call on the French in the box.

I'm fine with very limited VAR, checking for penalties and/or cards, if called by the field refs, offsides on a goal and very little else.  Afraid it's going to turn footie into the NFL.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 18, 2019, 06:17:04 AM
USA soccer prices out their own fans, and especially potential fans, for usmnt games. So unnatural carnal knowledgeing stupid

Yeah, even the American Outlaws seats have skyrocketed in price. I shudder in advance what USMNT home matches will cost in 2026.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 20, 2019, 02:55:16 PM
This US team is so good at changing the point of attack. The way they make cross-pitch passes, not just in terms of accuracy but hitting targets in rhythm. Love watching this team.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 23, 2019, 05:26:07 PM
Hosts France survive and advance with a 2-1 win over Brazil after added time. It took 120 minutes and a wrong footed volley from Amandine Henry that managed to sneak in at the 106 mark, but they will await the winner of tomorrow's USA/Spain match. If we advance, that will be a quarterfinal worthy of being a title decider.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 23, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600)

I stand by my statement.  One year in the last 10 the women exceeded the men in ticket revenue, by a fraction.  The men have dwarfed the women in revenue despite being not nearly as heralded as the women.  The article also does not mention media rights, they simply are not even on the same planet.  The revenues for FIFA men’s World Cup are many X more valuable than the women’s tournament.  This is why prize money for the last men’s World Cup was close to half a billion dollars, but on the women’s side it was $30 million.  Those dollars are derived from television and digital rights, and the interest level for the men’s product is derived from there.

Let’s also look at ticket prices for the men and women.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on June 24, 2019, 08:55:32 AM
What an absolute embarrassing display by Cameroon.  Elbowing players in the face, spitting on players, throwing tantrums on the field, refusing to kick off after a goal was correctly given, and then claiming that the refs/VAR were acting racist against you.  I'm amazed that 93rd minute tackle wasn't a straight red; late, high, clearly intent to injure.  I don't blame Phil Neville, or the head of CAF for wanting punishment to come down on the players and coach.  You're representing your country at the World Cup, not a Middle School pick-up game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 24, 2019, 10:22:52 AM
What an absolute embarrassing display by Cameroon.  Elbowing players in the face, spitting on players, throwing tantrums on the field, refusing to kick off after a goal was correctly given, and then claiming that the refs/VAR were acting racist against you.  I'm amazed that 93rd minute tackle wasn't a straight red; late, high, clearly intent to injure.  I don't blame Phil Neville, or the head of CAF for wanting punishment to come down on the players and coach.  You're representing your country at the World Cup, not a Middle School pick-up game.

The best take I saw on the situation was that you can praise their struggle and perseverance to qualify for the tourney but still condemn their complete lack of professionalism and childish actions once they got their.  People were acting like by calling out the latter, you negated the former, which is just silly.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 24, 2019, 11:59:55 AM
All it takes is one careless second in an elimination game.   


Spain more physical through 56 minutes.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 24, 2019, 12:30:51 PM
Weak penalty call on Spain.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 24, 2019, 12:31:54 PM
Weak penalty call on Spain.

Agree completely.  Really weak
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on June 24, 2019, 01:06:36 PM
What a weird/bad game all round. 

First off, for all the offensive records broken in the group stage, our only 2 shots on target came from the spot.  Our willingness to continue to blast from outside the box when we couldn't even one one on frame was puzzling to say the least. 

You cannot make defensive mistakes like that and win a tournament like the World Cup.  I'm all for playing it out from the back, but that was just baffling. 

Why it took until the 85th minute to make a sub is another questionable decision.  With the attacking options sitting on the bench and us struggling to score, I would have brought either Lloyd or Press in significantly sooner (60th minute or so).

Like far too many games this WC, officiating comes into question.  The second penalty was a tough break, because it's a situation where there is contact, and also a dive.  If it hadn't been called on the field, VAR would not have awarded that penalty IMO (although the ref did miss a penalty against Ertz earlier).  You know Spain was going to be more physical, but the ref lost control.  It should not take 15 fouls before a yellow is issued against a team.  If players know that no punishment is forthcoming, then they'll continue to become more and more aggressive.

Bottom line, we advanced, but will need a better performance against France on Friday.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 24, 2019, 01:10:53 PM
What a weird/bad game all round. 

First off, for all the offensive records broken in the group stage, our only 2 shots on target came from the spot.  Our willingness to continue to blast from outside the box when we couldn't even one one on frame was puzzling to say the least. 

You cannot make defensive mistakes like that and win a tournament like the World Cup.  I'm all for playing it out from the back, but that was just baffling. 

Why it took until the 85th minute to make a sub is another questionable decision.  With the attacking options sitting on the bench and us struggling to score, I would have brought either Lloyd or Press in significantly sooner (60th minute or so).

Like far too many games this WC, officiating comes into question.  The second penalty was a tough break, because it's a situation where there is contact, and also a dive.  If it hadn't been called on the field, VAR would not have awarded that penalty IMO (although the ref did miss a penalty against Ertz earlier).  You know Spain was going to be more physical, but the ref lost control.  It should not take 15 fouls before a yellow is issued against a team.  If players know that no punishment is forthcoming, then they'll continue to become more and more aggressive.

Bottom line, we advanced, but will need a better performance against France on Friday.

Hope Solo May be right on the coaching staff acumen.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 24, 2019, 01:14:01 PM

Why it took until the 85th minute to make a sub is another questionable decision.  With the attacking options sitting on the bench and us struggling to score, I would have brought either Lloyd or Press in significantly sooner (60th minute or so).

Jill Ellis was ATROCIOUS today.  Vilda outactic'd her from the opening whistle.  Rapinoe slotted home two PKs, fine, but she was horrible with her touches and passing all match.  By 5-10 min into the second half, it was apparent that Spain was in Morgan's head, the rough play would be allowed, and she was thrown off by it and couldn't stop complaining.  Dunn, Mewes, and Lavalle made good runs, but there was a complete lack of offensive and attacking creativity...so Jill Ellis took a nap on the bench and did absolutely nothing.

Bring on Lloyd, bring on Press, bring on Pugh.  Inject some life.  Take off Rapinoe and Morgan who had been really bad.  Move Heath around.  DO SOMETHING.  She was coaching super arrogantly as if "we have the best talent, this will be fine."  And honestly, Naeher has been incredibly shaky.  She has a good back line in front of her, but she is WAY too nervy.  I wouldn't mind seeing Harris out there instead.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: GB Warrior on June 24, 2019, 08:14:52 PM
Agreed.  VAR should have made the call on the French in the box.

I'm fine with very limited VAR, checking for penalties and/or cards, if called by the field refs, offsides on a goal and very little else.  Afraid it's going to turn footie into the NFL.

VAR is already far beyond what the NFL has. The NFL has routinely stepped on its own dick overacting to 'bad' outcomes without thought of the broader implications, but VAR has applied a level of precision that was really never intended, and the Cameroon goal that was called back is exhibit A, B, and C.

Best summed up by my favorite GIF

(https://i.imgur.com/gRk1uZm.gif)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on June 25, 2019, 01:42:08 AM
Will be in Europa to cheer on Team USA
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 26, 2019, 10:05:06 PM
Not a soccer fan, but I find myself becoming a Rapinoe fan.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 26, 2019, 10:19:56 PM
Not a soccer fan, but I find myself becoming a Rapinoe fan.

No one is shocked in the least
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on June 26, 2019, 11:13:03 PM
Not a soccer fan, but I find myself becoming a Rapinoe fan.

She’s the captain, the point guard out there. The engine of the team. Love her hustle, attitude and grit too. Cool in person too. It’s going to be one hell of a game on Friday.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 27, 2019, 05:49:00 AM
Not a soccer fan, but I find myself becoming a Rapinoe fan.

Proud to have her as our captain. She's been my favorite player for a long time now.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 27, 2019, 06:33:35 AM
I like the 'Space 1999' hair.   Great player.    Great leader.    Should have been subbed out earlier on Monday.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 27, 2019, 07:31:08 AM
Can we take the bickering to the other 140 threads where guys do what you do.

Big match - hoping for good showing by the ladies.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on June 27, 2019, 08:42:16 AM
Can we take the bickering to the other 140 threads where guys do what you do.

Big match - hoping for good showing by the ladies.

I agree with this analysis. 

I actually think that it'll end up being a let down, since it has been the most hyped match since before the tournament even started.  France won't try to slow the game down with fouls the way Spain did.  They'll try to out-talent us.  I actually think that both of the Saturday games will be better. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 27, 2019, 11:21:44 AM
We all know why you chose yesterday to make this statement about your admiration for her, but you know....politics not allowed.   Turnip trucks in high gear apparently.

Because she's the captain of the USA women's soccer team and they are currently playing in the FIFA World Cup and this thread is all about that?

Megan Rapinoe is a shining example of everything that makes America great. That's why she's deserving to be captain for all of us.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 27, 2019, 11:54:02 AM
Because she's the captain of the USA women's soccer team and they are currently playing in the FIFA World Cup and this thread is all about that?

Don’t need to play dumb, dude.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 27, 2019, 12:17:03 PM
Because she's the captain of the USA women's soccer team and they are currently playing in the FIFA World Cup and this thread is all about that?

Megan Rapinoe is a shining example of everything that makes America great. That's why she's deserving to be captain for all of us.

Im loath to agree with your opponent here, but its blatantly obvious.  I love Rapinoe as a player, but she was absolutely horrid on Monday. And hasn't been good most of the tourney.  So to choose now as a time to call her out as a favorite, especially when off the pitch stuff is flying about, doesn't need a detective to suss out.

But I think she's a fantastic ambassador for Women's soccer, a fearless individual in general, and the way she worked herself back onto the roster over the last few years is very impressive.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 27, 2019, 12:31:27 PM
Because she's the captain of the USA women's soccer team and they are currently playing in the FIFA World Cup and this thread is all about that?

Megan Rapinoe is a shining example of everything that makes America great. That's why she's deserving to be captain for all of us.

LOL....your truthiness is hurting bigly right now and you know it.  But carry on. Mike knows exactly what he did, when he did it and why he did it.  Play dumb all you wish, not a single person is buying it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 27, 2019, 02:20:36 PM
LOL....your truthiness is hurting bigly right now and you know it.

Not hurting at all. I'm proud she's my captain. And proud she's your captain.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Golden Avalanche on June 27, 2019, 03:30:49 PM
Im loath to agree with your opponent here, but its blatantly obvious.  I love Rapinoe as a player, but she was absolutely horrid on Monday. And hasn't been good most of the tourney.  So to choose now as a time to call her out as a favorite, especially when off the pitch stuff is flying about, doesn't need a detective to suss out.

But I think she's a fantastic ambassador for Women's soccer, a fearless individual in general, and the way she worked herself back onto the roster over the last few years is very impressive.

Converted both penalties. Only reason USA is still alive in the tournament. Pretty good "horrid" game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 27, 2019, 04:11:04 PM
Converted both penalties. Only reason USA is still alive in the tournament. Pretty good "horrid" game.

If Steph Curry hit 2 technical FTs to break a tie game in the Finals that the Warriors won by 2, but was 1-15 from the field with 8 TOs, would you say he played a good game?

Credit to her for slotting them home, but top penalty takers, which she is, usually average around 75-80% conversion rates. She's supposed to make those kicks.  Sans those two kicks, neither of which she generated or contributed to drawing, she probably rates out to a 5 for the match, which is not good.

Again, love her as a player, she's clearly one of the emotional rocks of the team, but until that second kick, which Morgan almost took until she was clearly too rattled from the rest of the match, she had not been very good at all.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 27, 2019, 05:32:02 PM
Whatever, Morgan looked great ALL GAME
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 27, 2019, 07:30:41 PM
LOL....your truthiness is hurting bigly right now and you know it.  But carry on. Mike knows exactly what he did, when he did it and why he did it.  Play dumb all you wish, not a single person is buying it.

Go Rapinoe, a great American soccer player!

And Happy Xmas!!!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 27, 2019, 07:34:52 PM
Go Rapinoe, a great American soccer player!

And Happy Xmas!!!

She is a great American soccer player, no one is arguing that.  Doesn't change why you did what you did and when you did it.  Your favoritest guy got called out by her, so you couldn't help yourself to play your games.  100% truthful and you know it, but don't have the cajones to admit it.  People know what your intent was, but keep playing your games and maybe find where you placed your stones.   

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 27, 2019, 07:42:40 PM
She is a great American soccer player, no one is arguing that.  Doesn't change why you did what you did and when you did it.  Your favoritest guy got called out by her, so you couldn't help yourself to play your games.  100% truthful and you know it, but don't have the cajones to admit it.  People know what your intent was, but keep playing your games and maybe find where you placed your stones.

"I tell you one thing: Everybody's gonna be saying Merry Xmas."

Hmmm ... I wonder who said that?

Talk about the pot painting the kettle orange.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 27, 2019, 07:54:40 PM
"I tell you one thing: Everybody's gonna be saying Merry Xmas."

Hmmm ... I wonder who said that?

Talk about the pot painting the kettle orange.

Politics again by you. 

My quote is from Twas the Night Before Christmas and I wish that to anyone during the season because that is what I practice.  God Bless you Mike.

By the way, a phrase I have been using here for many years.... 2012 at least.   https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35026.msg431255#msg431255

Blows up your theory.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 27, 2019, 07:55:15 PM
She is a great American soccer player, no one is arguing that.  Doesn't change why you did what you did and when you did it.  Your favoritest guy got called out by her, so you couldn't help yourself to play your games.  100% truthful and you know it, but don't have the cajones to admit it.  People know what your intent was, but keep playing your games and maybe find where you placed your stones.

FIFY

The rest of that is all non-relevant to the thread at hand.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 27, 2019, 09:10:03 PM
Politics again by you. 

My quote is from Twas the Night Before Christmas and I wish that to anyone during the season because that is what I practice.  God Bless you Mike.

What? Did I sneeze?

X bless you, too!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 27, 2019, 11:12:06 PM
She is a great American soccer player, no one is arguing that.  Doesn't change why you did what you did and when you did it.  Your favoritest guy got called out by her, so you couldn't help yourself to play your games.  100% truthful and you know it, but don't have the cajones to admit it.  People know what your intent was, but keep playing your games and maybe find where you placed your stones.   



Everyone knows why he said it. The fact that you are still talking about it is odd. Report the post and move on.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 28, 2019, 09:40:50 AM
Everyone knows why he said it. The fact that you are still talking about it is odd. Report the post and move on.

Report me saying I like a soccer player?

Hell, chicos would have to self-report every single post he makes because of his obvious nod to a certain someone's insistence that every American must say Merry Xmas.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Golden Avalanche on June 28, 2019, 09:41:25 AM
If Steph Curry hit 2 technical FTs to break a tie game in the Finals that the Warriors won by 2, but was 1-15 from the field with 8 TOs, would you say he played a good game?

Credit to her for slotting them home, but top penalty takers, which she is, usually average around 75-80% conversion rates. She's supposed to make those kicks.  Sans those two kicks, neither of which she generated or contributed to drawing, she probably rates out to a 5 for the match, which is not good.

Again, love her as a player, she's clearly one of the emotional rocks of the team, but until that second kick, which Morgan almost took until she was clearly too rattled from the rest of the match, she had not been very good at all.

As I wrote, pretty good "horrid" game for Rapinoe.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 28, 2019, 10:24:14 AM
FIFY

The rest of that is all non-relevant to the thread at hand.

It is when we have a rule here about politics and some of us have been reprimanded for it, while others keep on doing it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 28, 2019, 10:25:57 AM
Report me saying I like a soccer player?

Hell, chicos would have to self-report every single post he makes because of his obvious nod to a certain someone's insistence that every American must say Merry Xmas.

Weird, I've been saying it here since at LEAST 2012, long before your supposed allegation of "someone".  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35026.msg431255#msg431255



Your conspiracy theory destroyed again.  Good try Mike.  God Bless you.  Merry Christmas to you. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 28, 2019, 10:33:20 AM
Weird, I've been saying it here since at LEAST 2012, long before your supposed allegation of "someone".  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35026.msg431255#msg431255



Your conspiracy theory destroyed again.  Good try Mike.  God Bless you.  Merry Christmas to you.

Good try, chicos. Put the X back in Xmas.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 28, 2019, 11:14:34 AM
Report me saying I like a soccer player?

Crap like this is why you’re going to be called out in the physical. #ListedNonChristian
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 12:02:52 PM
Crap like this is why you’re going to be called out in the physical. #ListedNonChristian
Called out in the physical?   What in the hell does that even mean?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 28, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
Crap like this is why you’re going to be called out in the physical. #ListedNonChristian

Huh?

English much?

Do you always create hashtags that discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc? Didn't realize that you were a bigot as well as a wannabe bully.

Go Rapinoe!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 28, 2019, 02:07:00 PM
Is it OK to like Rapinoe now?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 28, 2019, 02:08:45 PM
OH CAPTAIN MY CAPTAIN!!!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 02:12:21 PM
Rapinoe only scores the easy goals.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on June 28, 2019, 02:42:39 PM
Good try, chicos. Put the X back in Xmas.

You know you got cooked again implying I used a phrase because a certain “someone does” (your words)....but I have said it for years.  Once again your theory wrong in your hope to push a narrative.  Glad you are in full denial with the evidence for all to see. 

God Bless Mike.  Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 02:53:59 PM
France played a little better than the US in the first half.  US defended well in the final third, keeping France from stringing together passes when it mattered.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 03:10:44 PM
US coming out a little flat.   France the aggressor.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 28, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Is there a video feed that just follows Alex? Should be
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 03:15:18 PM
Is there a video feed that just follows Alex? Should be
It would be dull.  So far she isn't doing a lot.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 03:23:46 PM
Morgan did a great job starting the play leading to Rapinoe's second goal.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 28, 2019, 03:24:10 PM
YYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 28, 2019, 03:27:03 PM
FIFA 19 is only $20 at GameStop. Maybe I’ll cop it. Let’s play online
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on June 28, 2019, 03:29:14 PM
It would be dull.  So far she isn't doing a lot.

Doing a lot for me. I’d be up for it
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: lawdog77 on June 28, 2019, 03:32:04 PM
Doing a lot for me. I’d be up for it
we get it, stalker.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 03:34:23 PM
Add it to your list.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 03:39:05 PM
Flow of the game made that somewhat inevitable.   Buckle up.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MUEng92 on June 28, 2019, 03:41:00 PM
Are we in agreement that the US was robbed of third goal. Didn't see an offside
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 28, 2019, 03:45:56 PM
Are we in agreement that the US was robbed of third goal. Didn't see an offside

I'm somewhat clueless about the rules of VAR, but was that not reviewable?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 28, 2019, 03:53:49 PM
Nice.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MUEng92 on June 28, 2019, 03:54:27 PM
Whew
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 28, 2019, 04:04:11 PM
You know you got cooked again implying I used a phrase because a certain “someone does” (your words)....but I have said it for years.  Once again your theory wrong in your hope to push a narrative.  Glad you are in full denial with the evidence for all to see. 

God Bless Mike.  Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Could you be more of a snowflake?  Good thing our women’s soccer team has more guts than you do.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jsglow on June 28, 2019, 04:06:45 PM
Thought the D was solid all afternoon.  Seems like they played to the scouting report perfectly.  France is darn good but the Americans are better.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on June 28, 2019, 04:24:05 PM
Thought the D was solid all afternoon.  Seems like they played to the scouting report perfectly.  France is darn good but the Americans are better.

The D was excellent. The offense took advantage of the opportunities they did create, and frankly the Dunn play looked onside.

So by FIFA rankings, USA just beat #4 in the world. Up next, #3 England, with #2 Germany potentially in the Final. Talk about a gauntlet.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 28, 2019, 04:37:48 PM
So by FIFA rankings, USA just beat #4 in the world. Up next, #3 England, with #2 Germany potentially in the Final. Talk about a gauntlet.

Fantastic.  As it should be.  Bring it home, ladies!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on June 28, 2019, 04:49:03 PM
The D was excellent. The offense took advantage of the opportunities they did create, and frankly the Dunn play looked onside.

So by FIFA rankings, USA just beat #4 in the world. Up next, #3 England, with #2 Germany potentially in the Final. Talk about a gauntlet.

If it's Germany in the finals I like the USA's odds considering previous success in battles against them on French soil.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 28, 2019, 05:36:24 PM
You know you got cooked again implying I used a phrase because a certain “someone does” (your words)....but I have said it for years.  Once again your theory wrong in your hope to push a narrative.  Glad you are in full denial with the evidence for all to see. 

God Bless Mike.  Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Both goals in a 2-1 win over France ... my girl Rapinoe is a true American hero!

May science, facts and reason lead you to a more satisfying life, chicos ... and Happy Paul Bunyan Day!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on June 28, 2019, 06:25:53 PM
I'll start this with a "please don't lock this mods"

As far as the game, they won't make the headlines, but the work that the midfield put in won us this game.  No question about it.  I would give M(W)OTM to Ertz hands down (although Mewis, Lavelle, and Horan could get an honorable mention).  As much as Rapinoe will get the headlines, the ball from Morgan to Heath, and the dummy from Mewis, that set up that second, which really took the wind out of France's sails, was the moment of he match (France had all the MO, and was most def. against the run of play).  All-in-all, a much better game from the US going up against (I don't care what the FIFA rankings say) the 2nd best team in the world. I don't want to jinx it, but I think there's a good chance we roll in both the semis and final.

edit: potential third didn't look off to my (admittedly biased) eyes, but not sure why VAR didn't even take a look.  Didn't matter in the end but...
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 28, 2019, 10:51:59 PM
Confess I'm not much of a soccer fan but I was glued to the TV set this afternoon. Great fun!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on June 29, 2019, 12:00:40 AM
She’s a great player, one you had never heard of 10 days ago and one that didn’t send a tingle up your leg until a few days ago.  Anyone that follows soccer knows she is a great player....that wasn’t the point.  You went ape shat last week at a post I made, but when you actually do what you accused me of it’s all fine and dandy.  An epic hypocrite.

Merry Christmas

Happy Science & Facts.

Go Rapinoe!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on June 29, 2019, 07:13:12 AM
Balderdash.  Anyone who has watched the women's world cup or the women's Olympic soccer over the last 10 years knows who she is.  In other words, the casual fan.  Sports Illustrated wrote an in depth article about her in their preview issue.  She was even in the swimsuit issue.   She has been one of the faces of the team for a decade.

And it is pure, unadulterated hypocrisy for you to criticize someone else for slipping a political remark into a thread.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on June 29, 2019, 09:46:08 AM
Happy Science & Facts. May the embrace of them finally give you some peace and intellectually honesty in your life.

Come on Mike, you're better than this...

D yesterday was sublime.  Sauerbrunn feels like Christie Rampone 2.0 in that she gets better positionally, wiser, and savvier with age and will be around for at least one more WC.  Dahlkemper has been fantastic moving into Ertz's old spot, O'Hara is a rock, and Dunn is everything the USMNT hoped Yedlin would be with her range and overlapping runs.

I stand by everything I said about Rapinoe against Spain, but she was really good yesterday.  Positioning, poise on the ball, confidence, just a different player all together.  Also, FANTASTIC set piece design on the first.  Ertz's run across to create confusion and then her flying dummy to distract was brilliant.  Heath was sensational on her flank. 

France actually outplayed the US for major stretches of the match, but the D and midfield were just too good to let up yesterday.  England is tough, but they've seen nothing like the quality of the US so far.  Dogged but undertalented Scotland team, Norway team without their star, a lacking in quality Cameroon squad.  England might get blistered early.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 29, 2019, 10:03:35 AM
JW ... It's fun for awhile sparring with irritants, but after a while I do get tired of chicos arguing for the sake of arguing.

Fun for you....
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on June 29, 2019, 11:17:57 AM
Now, does England have any hotties?

Hey everyone, look how totally, 100 percent t completely hetero I am.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on June 29, 2019, 08:14:18 PM
  "my girl Rapinoe is a true American hero!"

come on mikey, she's a good soccer player, but let's not water down "hero" and/or all the other adjectives.  i'm not going to get into what defines one as such, however,  let's not lower the bar.  she may be in your mind and that's ok, but it must be prefaced as such 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 01, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
  "my girl Rapinoe is a true American hero!"

come on mikey, she's a good soccer player, but let's not water down "hero" and/or all the other adjectives.  i'm not going to get into what defines one as such, however,  let's not lower the bar.  she may be in your mind and that's ok, but it must be prefaced as such

If she beats the brits she's done the same as all our founding fathers! Jk

but seriously excited for the next match. Talking a lot of trash with my cousins.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 01, 2019, 02:01:26 PM
Alex Morgan’s Birthday tomorrow Jay Bee
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 01, 2019, 05:30:14 PM
Alex Morgan’s Birthday tomorrow Jay Bee

Time to spank it!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: pbiflyer on July 01, 2019, 08:14:08 PM
I'll start this with a "please don't lock this mods"

As far as the game, they won't make the headlines, but the work that the midfield put in won us this game.  No question about it.  I would give M(W)OTM to Ertz hands down (although Mewis, Lavelle, and Horan could get an honorable mention).  As much as Rapinoe will get the headlines, the ball from Morgan to Heath, and the dummy from Mewis, that set up that second, which really took the wind out of France's sails, was the moment of he match (France had all the MO, and was most def. against the run of play).  All-in-all, a much better game from the US going up against (I don't care what the FIFA rankings say) the 2nd best team in the world. I don't want to jinx it, but I think there's a good chance we roll in both the semis and final.

edit: potential third didn't look off to my (admittedly biased) eyes, but not sure why VAR didn't even take a look.  Didn't matter in the end but...

A quick brag. I know Lindsey. Work with her mom for many years now.  She is a great person. First US women's soccer player to skip college and play professionally in Europe right out of high school.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 02, 2019, 12:53:33 PM
Wow, Rapinoe is only 33? That face screams 47. How old do the gals usually play at this level?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 02, 2019, 01:03:10 PM
Press and Horan in for Rapinoe and Mewis.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 02, 2019, 02:12:16 PM
Press!    I am a huge admirer of a freed Press.   I appreciate the egalitarianism of letting someone other than Rapinoe score.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 02, 2019, 02:31:24 PM
Wow, Rapinoe is only 33? That face screams 47. How old do the gals usually play at this level?

And you sit home alone every night wondering why women avoid you.....
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 02, 2019, 02:32:58 PM
Happy birthday, Alex Morgan!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 02, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
Megan Rapi-noe-go.  Hamstrung in her attempt to participate.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 02, 2019, 03:21:02 PM
Yay, Alex!!!
 :-*
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 02, 2019, 03:26:29 PM
Score is almost La-velled after Rose leaves with an injury.

Defense is suddenly sloppy.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 02, 2019, 03:54:47 PM
The goalie let in Naehr-y a shot in the second half, including a PK.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 02, 2019, 04:24:35 PM
The Brits can really pass. Who thought Soccer was game of inches as the off side was just hair on or over the line, not sure how that is called. Good win by the US today.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 02, 2019, 06:23:21 PM
Press!    I am a huge admirer of a freed Press.   I appreciate the egalitarianism of letting someone other than Rapinoe score.

Well done.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 02, 2019, 07:28:38 PM
The Brits can really pass. Who thought Soccer was game of inches as the off side was just hair on or over the line, not sure how that is called. Good win by the US today.

Easy call - she was over the line.

Ref didn't see it. Replay was definitive.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 03, 2019, 01:57:56 PM
JB should watch the Sweden-Netherlands game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 03, 2019, 02:50:26 PM
No, he shouldn't.   Boring game.  Sweden has had more opportunities.   Netherlands playing very conservatively.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 03, 2019, 03:54:38 PM
Play another 30 minutes, ladies.  USWNT is enjoying watching the effort.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 03, 2019, 04:10:22 PM
Nice goal for the Dutch, quality teamwork. The Swedes have been getting fingertip saves from Lindahl all day and she just couldn't quite get to that one.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on July 03, 2019, 06:05:08 PM
There are two things I hate in this world....

(https://i.imgur.com/K3CzCf3.gif)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 03, 2019, 06:11:37 PM
Living in the Dutch exile colony that is West Michigan, I can actually generate dislike of the Dutch.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: GB Warrior on July 03, 2019, 11:18:40 PM
With how physical they were in their respective matches, ENG-SWE will be a hell of a game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 03, 2019, 11:23:16 PM
 Sweden is going to be gassed.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on July 04, 2019, 01:49:21 AM
The Dutch sweat alot.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 07, 2019, 09:56:08 AM
Let's do this.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 07, 2019, 11:29:19 AM
A 🌹 by any other name is not so sweet.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Mr. Nielsen on July 07, 2019, 11:34:54 AM
Amazing that you can get a free goal (penalty kick) off a play like that?!?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 07, 2019, 11:35:57 AM
Cleats making contact with the shoulder in the penalty box.   Really a no brainer.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 07, 2019, 11:41:09 AM
Gooooooooooooal! Rapinooooooooooooooe!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 07, 2019, 11:45:36 AM
Cleats making contact with the shoulder in the penalty box.   Really a no brainer.

Yea, that wasn't even a question. Studs up, whiffed on the ball and her foot was at Morgan's shoulder.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 07, 2019, 11:48:32 AM
Seems like WE have done a weak job of converting great chances.. looking tired and making dumb decisions. Fortunately we're up by 2.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu_hilltopper on July 07, 2019, 11:49:23 AM
Explain substitutions .. are the players out for the rest of the game?  When one of the US players was bleeding, she went out and they said the US was down a player.  They can't put someone in for injury?  (Or they could, but the injured player would be done?)

Also .. one on-field ref? 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Mr. Nielsen on July 07, 2019, 11:49:40 AM
Cleats making contact with the shoulder in the penalty box.   Really a no brainer.

So, it was the location on the field of the nature of the foul that resulted in the penalty kick?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CreightonWarrior on July 07, 2019, 12:03:52 PM
So, it was the location on the field of the nature of the foul that resulted in the penalty kick?
Probably the location made the ref scared to call it when she should have.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 07, 2019, 12:09:45 PM
Explain substitutions .. are the players out for the rest of the game?  When one of the US players was bleeding, she went out and they said the US was down a player.  They can't put someone in for injury?  (Or they could, but the injured player would be done?)

Also .. one on-field ref?

Yes.

At this level, you get only 3 subs. And once a player gets subbed off, they're done for the game.

You can temporarily exit the field to be tended to for injury and come back on. But, if subbed off due to injury, again, you're done for the day.

With the sub situation at this level, it's why fitness is so important. If a more talented player isn't fit, a manager may choose to play a less talented/more fit player. You want to hang on to subs to make tactical changes and not be forced to use a sub for fitness/injury.

One head/center official. 2 linesmen officials. 1 fourth official (subs and added time).
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 07, 2019, 12:24:16 PM
What a satisfying ending.  Felt like watching Jordan’s Championship bulls teams — you knew what was going to happen but it’s still fun/entertaining along the way. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 07, 2019, 12:26:18 PM
So, it was the location on the field of the nature of the foul that resulted in the penalty kick?
Yes.  If it happens outside the box, it would be a free kick and a yellow card.   Inside the box, a PK.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 07, 2019, 12:32:44 PM
That was fantastic. Incredibly tense first half, nervous as hell at the half. Pinoe with the winning goal, the Golden Boot, and the Golden Ball. Amazing performance all around. I would've gone to Press a little sooner, but credit to Ellis sticking with the starters as the Dutch wore down. The Dutch keeper was fantastic.

Four World Cups, all in my lifetime and memory. It's amazing how good the USA women's program is. They match the Germany & Italy men's programs for the second most World Cups behind Brazil's five, but they did it in 28 years, whereas the fastest to 4 previously was Brazil in 36. Amazing.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 07, 2019, 12:34:16 PM
Amazing that you can get a free goal (penalty kick) off a play like that?!?

Much more about what a stupid play by the defender.....that was not a dangerous moment that warranted throwing caution to the wind
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Mr. Nielsen on July 07, 2019, 01:51:58 PM
Well, go Team USA tonight on FS1 in the Gold Cup final vs. Mexico.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WarriorDad on July 07, 2019, 02:42:29 PM
Congratulations to the ladies. 

Only thing that bothered me was the commentary after the game.  One of the announcers said against all odds this team won the World Cup.  What?  This is a great team and way ahead of the world in terms of when we started.  We were one of the favorites to win it all, not aware how someone with a straight face can make that comment as a professional.

Will the rest of the world catch-up in the next decade as countries start to care?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WarriorDad on July 07, 2019, 02:44:31 PM
Four World Cups, all in my lifetime and memory. It's amazing how good the USA women's program is. They match the Germany & Italy men's programs for the second most World Cups behind Brazil's five, but they did it in 28 years, whereas the fastest to 4 previously was Brazil in 36. Amazing.

Let's not get too crazy with the comparisons when one considers how many truly great men's teams could win it all the last 60 years.  Not really the same comparison for the women.  Incredible accomplishment, but the competitive levels and the outcomes are not the same comparison.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 07, 2019, 03:02:12 PM
Let's not get too crazy with the comparisons when one considers how many truly great men's teams could win it all the last 60 years.  Not really the same comparison for the women.  Incredible accomplishment, but the competitive levels and the outcomes are not the same comparison.

Totally agree. It's apples and coconuts. They might as well be completely different sports.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 07, 2019, 03:36:56 PM
Let's not get too crazy with the comparisons when one considers how many truly great men's teams could win it all the last 60 years.  Not really the same comparison for the women.  Incredible accomplishment, but the competitive levels and the outcomes are not the same comparison.

Let's also not diminish their accomplishments. Their level of dominance is ridiculous. While it would be easy to say no one else is on the USA women's level, the world has had decades to catch up and based on results the USA women have pulled further away rather than letting the world close the gap. They've won three of the last four major tournaments (including Olympics) and overall have won 8/14 overall. Countries like China, Germany, Brazil, & Sweden were powers that never overtook us, while new rising nations like France, England, & the Netherlands still aren't there.

This is one of the most dominant programs in sports history. Based on the sport's history, the smarter money is on taking the USA than the field in major international tournaments. In a world where there's a constant trend towards sports parity, the USWNT has defied that.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 07, 2019, 05:27:01 PM
Let's also not diminish their accomplishments. Their level of dominance is ridiculous. While it would be easy to say no one else is on the USA women's level, the world has had decades to catch up and based on results the USA women have pulled further away rather than letting the world close the gap. They've won three of the last four major tournaments (including Olympics) and overall have won 8/14 overall. Countries like China, Germany, Brazil, & Sweden were powers that never overtook us, while new rising nations like France, England, & the Netherlands still aren't there.

This is one of the most dominant programs in sports history. Based on the sport's history, the smarter money is on taking the USA than the field in major international tournaments. In a world where there's a constant trend towards sports parity, the USWNT has defied that.

I would say that Germany did catch up at one point, only to have the US go out ahead again.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 07, 2019, 06:38:46 PM
Let's also not diminish their accomplishments. Their level of dominance is ridiculous. While it would be easy to say no one else is on the USA women's level, the world has had decades to catch up and based on results the USA women have pulled further away rather than letting the world close the gap. They've won three of the last four major tournaments (including Olympics) and overall have won 8/14 overall. Countries like China, Germany, Brazil, & Sweden were powers that never overtook us, while new rising nations like France, England, & the Netherlands still aren't there.

This is one of the most dominant programs in sports history. Based on the sport's history, the smarter money is on taking the USA than the field in major international tournaments. In a world where there's a constant trend towards sports parity, the USWNT has defied that.

I wouldn't say it diminishes their accomplishments to say US women's soccer had a huge headstart compared to most other countries due to cultural differences
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 07, 2019, 07:58:08 PM
Why did they not take their shirts off this time?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 07, 2019, 08:29:44 PM
Why did they not take their shirts off this time?

Ah so you're a Brandi Chastain was marketing truther. Cool
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 07, 2019, 09:10:03 PM
I wouldn't say it diminishes their accomplishments to say US women's soccer had a huge headstart compared to most other countries due to cultural differences

But again, the headstart means a lot less now and they've won 3 of the last 4 major tournaments as the rest of the world should be in its ascendency. A record 26 goals in a World Cup, 26-3 scoring margin, the rest of the world has had three decades and they don't seem to be closing the gap.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 07, 2019, 09:12:25 PM
brew, knowing the way the hype machine works, I don't think there is much danger of the USWNT's accomplishments getting diminished.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 07, 2019, 09:20:18 PM
brew, knowing the way the hype machine works, I don't think there is much danger of the USWNT's accomplishments getting diminished.

As soon as people start talking about them next to the 50s-60s Celtics, the 2000s Patriots, Soviet Hockey, John Wooden's UCLA, the Yankees, UConn women's basketball, and the Brazil men's national team, then they will be treated appropriately.

Frankly, I haven't heard that yet. This is one of the greatest sports dynasties in modern sporting history. It isn't that they're the greatest team in women's soccer history, that's not even a conversation. It's that they are one of the great programs in any sport, period.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 07, 2019, 09:38:25 PM
As soon as people start talking about them next to the 50s-60s Celtics, the 2000s Patriots, Soviet Hockey, John Wooden's UCLA, the Yankees, UConn women's basketball, and the Brazil men's national team, then they will be treated appropriately.

Frankly, I haven't heard that yet. This is one of the greatest sports dynasties in modern sporting history. It isn't that they're the greatest team in women's soccer history, that's not even a conversation. It's that they are one of the great programs in any sport, period.

Well, you're people ... and you're talkin' about it!

The obvious problem is that it isn't a mainstream U.S. sport. Most people into sports in the U.S. don't talk about the Brazil national team or UConn women's hoops, either.

If the only way they are truly respected is to be compared to the 50s/60s Yankees, Belichick/Brady Patriots, Wooden UCLA and Russell Celtics, then yes, I agree with you that they never will be truly respected.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 07, 2019, 10:17:48 PM
But again, the headstart means a lot less now and they've won 3 of the last 4 major tournaments as the rest of the world should be in its ascendency. A record 26 goals in a World Cup, 26-3 scoring margin, the rest of the world has had three decades and they don't seem to be closing the gap.

I sure wouldn't say they don't seem to be closing the gap... 2003, 2007, 2011.

It's possible that the headstart helped the US initially. The rest of the world caught up. Then US (on the backs of early success from the women in 90s) put together a world-class roster for the last 8 years.

That's not bad-mouthing or diminishing. At the end of the day, they are the best in the world and have been at the top of the ladder in women's soccer since inception.

My only critique was when you tried to compare their success to Brazil. Got to put it all in context - competition,etc.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 07, 2019, 10:32:07 PM
One thing to keep in mind, in the US women's soccer is getting at worst the second best of the talent pool(basketball maybe gets the most) and from an athletic talent pool standpoint the US just natural has more depth with the population size and the general wealth of the nation. Means we're gonna get more talent AND more investment than most other countries
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 07, 2019, 10:33:20 PM
My only critique was when you tried to compare their success to Brazil. Got to put it all in context - competition,etc.

Like I said, Brazil, the Yankees, UConn basketball, pick your dynasty, they deserve to be in the same conversation.

And in women's soccer, you have to include 1996, 2004, 2008, & 2012. And finishing 3rd or better in 13/14 major competitions.

Did they have a headstart? Sure. So did England in men's soccer, Canada in hockey, and plenty of other teams in other sports. Have any made the most of that advantage the way the USA did? They've never gone more than 5 years without a major title.

Comparing them to Brazil? Absolutely. They're a great dynasty. Period. They belong alongside all the great dynasties in all sports.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 07, 2019, 10:41:00 PM
Like I said, Brazil, the Yankees, UConn basketball, pick your dynasty, they deserve to be in the same conversation.

And in women's soccer, you have to include 1996, 2004, 2008, & 2012. And finishing 3rd or better in 13/14 major competitions.

Did they have a headstart? Sure. So did England in men's soccer, Canada in hockey, and plenty of other teams in other sports. Have any made the most of that advantage the way the USA did? They've never gone more than 5 years without a major title.

Comparing them to Brazil? Absolutely. They're a great dynasty. Period. They belong alongside all the great dynasties in all sports.

Okay.

No one is arguing against US women's soccer being a sports dynasty.

I'm arguing your specific point that us women's success > Brazil men's past success because less years to get same titles.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 08, 2019, 09:21:05 AM
Like I said, Brazil, the Yankees, UCLA UConn basketball, pick your dynasty, they deserve to be in the same conversation.

And in women's soccer, you have to include 1996, 2004, 2008, & 2012. And finishing 3rd or better in 13/14 major competitions.

Did they have a headstart? Sure. So did England in men's soccer, Canada in hockey, and plenty of other teams in other sports. Have any made the most of that advantage the way the USA did? They've never gone more than 5 years without a major title.

Comparing them to Brazil? Absolutely. They're a great dynasty. Period. They belong alongside all the great dynasties in all sports.

More accurate comparison.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on July 08, 2019, 11:02:05 AM
More accurate comparison.

UConn women's bball team, kin.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MUBurrow on July 08, 2019, 12:13:39 PM
But again, the headstart means a lot less now and they've won 3 of the last 4 major tournaments as the rest of the world should be in its ascendency. A record 26 goals in a World Cup, 26-3 scoring margin, the rest of the world has had three decades and they don't seem to be closing the gap.

See I think this data cuts exactly the other way. Half of those record goals were in one game, against a team from a part of the world that fields no competitive womens teams. Taylor Twellman made the point this morning on Dan Patrick that there just isn't enough investment from most international federations to consider expanding the world cup field right now, and that speaks to the "head start" conversation.

One-half of the value of a headstart is vis-a-vis the countries that will be your strongest, consistent competition.  In that respect, you're right that France, England, etc fielding better squads with more investment in their programs validates the USWNT's success. The other half of the value of a head start though, is that a greater % of your games are gimmes.  This greatly reduces the wear and tear in tournament play, and really reduces the real risk of an upset.  In the mens ranks, Ghana, Russia, the Czechs, Nigeria are all in between 40 and 50. Any of them could realistically give a T-5 team all they can handle.  Is a team ranked in the 40s going to give a T-5 women's team all they handle? No chance.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 08, 2019, 02:00:10 PM
UConn women's bball team, kin.

Got it! I guess including the Yankees put me out in left field.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 08, 2019, 04:56:22 PM
There needs to be a greater planning and commitment toward equalizing men’s and women’s compensation if only because of the statement it makes.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 08, 2019, 06:30:34 PM
There needs to be a greater planning and commitment toward equalizing men’s and women’s compensation if only because of the statement it makes.

Agree with this.

There are plenty of folks who claim that there really is no gender pay gap, but this is a perfect example of women getting paid significantly less for the same work ... and it's the women who actually excel at their jobs.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 08, 2019, 08:24:36 PM
The women's pot of money is smaller because their tournaments (ticket sales and tv contracts) generate less revenue. Women actually get a larger percentage of their pot than the men.

Where should the additional money come from?

How do you equalize the pay?

I suppose you could combine the tournaments and run them at the same time. Combine all the revenue and distribute accordingly.

Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on July 08, 2019, 08:35:26 PM
The women's pot of money is smaller because their tournaments (ticket sales and tv contracts) generate less revenue. Women actually get a larger percentage of their pot than the men.

Where should the additional money come from?

How do you equalize the pay?

I suppose you could combine the tournaments and run them at the same time. Combine all the revenue and distribute accordingly.

Any other ideas?

Renegotiate the TV contract.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 08, 2019, 08:51:30 PM
The women's pot of money is smaller because their tournaments (ticket sales and tv contracts) generate less revenue.

Except this apparently isn't true.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men/

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 08, 2019, 08:52:12 PM
The women's pot of money is smaller because their tournaments (ticket sales and tv contracts) generate less revenue. Women actually get a larger percentage of their pot than the men.

Where should the additional money come from?

How do you equalize the pay?

I suppose you could combine the tournaments and run them at the same time. Combine all the revenue and distribute accordingly.

Any other ideas?

The organization isn’t just pots of money. It has revenue and expenses. If that means the men are generating revenue that are spent on the women, that’s fine by me.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 08, 2019, 09:09:01 PM
Have em play each other. Winner takes all the $$$
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 08, 2019, 09:13:45 PM
Except this apparently isn't true.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men/

My apologies for not being clear. I was referring to world cup money
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 08, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Renegotiate the TV contract.

FIFA is going to renegotiate the world cup tv contract to get more money for women and less for men?

Could they? Maybe. Will they? No. Because advertisers wouldnt be on board.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 08, 2019, 09:17:02 PM
The organization isn’t just pots of money. It has revenue and expenses. If that means the men are generating revenue that are spent on the women, that’s fine by me.

Fair.

See above. I was talking about winnings from the tournaments.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 08, 2019, 09:48:43 PM
FIFA is going to renegotiate the world cup tv contract to get more money for women and less for men?

Could they? Maybe. Will they? No. Because advertisers wouldnt be on board.

I'm assuming you mean advertisers wouldn't be on board world wide.

In the US, the Women's World Cup draws a much bigger TV audience then the men. The women's World Cup final beat the men's by 22%.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 08, 2019, 10:45:43 PM
I'm assuming you mean advertisers wouldn't be on board world wide.

In the US, the Women's World Cup draws a much bigger TV audience then the men. The women's World Cup final beat the men's by 22%.

A womens WC featuring the US team versus the mens WC which has never featured the US team.

I'm all for paying the women the same as the men but let's at least be fair in our application of selective statistics
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 08, 2019, 11:08:10 PM
Have em play each other. Winner takes all the $$$

Stupidity at its finest.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 08, 2019, 11:20:05 PM
24 Women's World Cup teams.  Netherlands was just in their second cup ever, and made the finals.  24 is TOO MANY for the women's world cup, that's how many bad teams there are.

The men have 32 and could easily go to 48.  The men left teams like Italy, USA, Netherlands not even good enough to qualify this time around.

The disparity between the two is massive.  The revenue driven by the men's qualifiers and FIFA events is massive compared to the women.  What the USA women have done is noteworthy, but compared to UCLA, Patriots, etc....are you kidding me?  Do we say that same thing about women's USA softball?  Why not?  They dominate even more than Women's soccer team, but are also light years ahead of the world and are amongst only 3 or 4 other teams that even matter.

I'm proud of the ladies' accomplishments, but it is laughable to the highest degree to say they should be compared to any other dynasty when one considers there are so few teams at this point that can knock them off.  Need another 20 years at least for the maturity of the sport and other countries to step up where a true dynasty comparison could be used.  The context is absurd at this point.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 08, 2019, 11:44:46 PM
A womens WC featuring the US team versus the mens WC which has never featured the US team.

I'm all for paying the women the same as the men but let's at least be fair in our application of selective statistics

It's not selective statistics. The advertisers are paying for the audience. The Women most likely are playing in the championship, which means the audience will be much larger. It has consistently been true.

The 2019 final was the largest soccer audience since 2015, when the women played in the FIFA Women's World Cup final.

Those are facts.

It's also a fact that the women generate more revenue for the US soccer federation than the men.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 01:20:05 AM
Like I said, Brazil, the Yankees, UConn basketball, pick your dynasty, they deserve to be in the same conversation.

And in women's soccer, you have to include 1996, 2004, 2008, & 2012. And finishing 3rd or better in 13/14 major competitions.

Did they have a headstart? Sure. So did England in men's soccer, Canada in hockey, and plenty of other teams in other sports. Have any made the most of that advantage the way the USA did? They've never gone more than 5 years without a major title.

Comparing them to Brazil? Absolutely. They're a great dynasty. Period. They belong alongside all the great dynasties in all sports.

Laughable


How can you be a sports fan and a student of sports and make some of these claims.  So easily destroyed.  Some of this cheerleading is nothin but PC feel good rah rah.  What they did was wonderful.  End of the day, the men generate worldwide in the billions and that’s where the revenue shares come from.  If the ladies want the same pay, start generating 5he same revenues.  Fill stadiums worlwide, for qualifiers,etc, etc.  Sorry if that is unfair, but payment is based on consistent eyeballs and 5he revenue associated with them...not one event.  And dynasties are based as much on who 5he completion is.  UCLA has Kentucky, Indiana, Marquette, UNC, Houston, etc, etc.   Same for other dynasties.  UConn women is a decent comp.  USA women’s softball is, too....so little competition means very few dominant teams.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 09, 2019, 07:50:59 AM
24 Women's World Cup teams.  Netherlands was just in their second cup ever, and made the finals.  24 is TOO MANY for the women's world cup, that's how many bad teams there are.

The men have 32 and could easily go to 48.  The men left teams like Italy, USA, Netherlands not even good enough to qualify this time around.


48?  There aren't 16 teams being left out that have a legit chance to win the World Cup.  Most of those additional qualifiers would end up being fodder for the big boys.  It's just a reason for them to televise more games and sell more tickets.  Which is fine, but let's be honest, there aren't more than a handful of teams that are going to win the World Cup in any given year.  In it's history, only eight teams, from two confederations, have won.  I think only won team outside of Europe and South America has even made a semifinal.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 09, 2019, 07:51:30 AM
Laughable


How can you be a sports fan and a student of sports and make some of these claims.  So easily destroyed.  Some of this cheerleading is nothin but PC feel good rah rah.  What they did was wonderful.  End of the day, the men generate worldwide in the billions and that’s where the revenue shares come from.  If the ladies want the same pay, start generating 5he same revenues.  Fill stadiums worlwide, for qualifiers,etc, etc.  Sorry if that is unfair, but payment is based on consistent eyeballs and 5he revenue associated with them...not one event.  And dynasties are based as much on who 5he completion is.  UCLA has Kentucky, Indiana, Marquette, UNC, Houston, etc, etc.   Same for other dynasties.  UConn women is a decent comp.  USA women’s softball is, too....so little competition means very few dominant teams.


As I said above, it just isn't about revenue generation.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 09, 2019, 08:36:04 AM
It's not selective statistics. The advertisers are paying for the audience. The Women most likely are playing in the championship, which means the audience will be much larger. It has consistently been true.

The 2019 final was the largest soccer audience since 2015, when the women played in the FIFA Women's World Cup final.

Those are facts.

It's also a fact that the women generate more revenue for the US soccer federation than the men.

Fair, I'm reacting to the general mixing of international soccer and US soccer both within this thread and with the public/media discussion. If we are discussing salary/revenue for US Women Soccer vs US Men Soccer I think you have a valid point, though I'm not privy to all the USSF revenue models so I don't know what US women are generating versus men but either way from an investment standpoint the US women should be getting at least the same as men IMO. Even if the women weren't this good, as a policy USSF should be investing equally in both because they have to grow the game for everybody if they want to succeed in the men's game.

However, we muddy the waters when we talk about the women and men at the international level from a pay/revenue standpoint. Example, I've continually seen the reporting around the 2022 Men's reward pool being at $440M where the women's pool is going to be at $60M in 2023. It is pointed at as a glaring example of inequality but at the international level the women's WC generates significantly less eyeballs/revenue than does the men's tournament. The US is by far the highest viewership of the women's game, I know England had record viewership this WC, but overall it is miniscual compared to the men's tournament. There are all sorts of reasons for that both cultural and quality in nature that should be addressed but it is what it is right now. At the international level, women get a higher share of the reported revenue in the reward pool than do the men and it is split amongst fewer players.

For me it comes down to the US women are underpaid and the international women's programs are probably fairly compensated at this time though I would certainly welcome more investment from FIFA in the women's game so that it can be more competitive. Anything else is just one faction or the other trying to "win the argument"
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 08:38:42 AM
There needs to be a greater planning and commitment toward equalizing men’s and women’s compensation if only because of the statement it makes.

What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?

Should WNBA players make the same as NBA players?  Should male pornstars make as much as their much higher paid female pornstars?  Should women’s tennis players and LPGA make as much?  Do not get me wrong, I am 100% supportive of it if the market dictates it.  But if 1/20th of the audience is watching the LPGA (example only) then no.  If the women’s World Cup of soccer draws far less (all matches, worldwide, qualifiers, etc), charges lower ticket prices, has lower attendance...then no.  Same for the other examples.  Feel goodness ultimately leads to failure, bankruptcy, etc.  The market dictates the value, fair or unfair, that is the deal and in FIFA that means the world not just the USA where we lazily give a damn ever four years for three weeks.  The worldwide market for women’s soccer is low, but picking up.  The US women can capitalize at home through sponsorships and “feel goodness” by those dollars....and believe me they will as brands fight over themselves to do so.  By the end of it all we will be sick of it via the hype machine, but that is how it works. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 09, 2019, 08:44:02 AM
What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?

Should WNBA players make the same as NBA players?  Should male pornstars make as much as their much higher paid female pornstars?  Should women’s tennis players and LPGA make as much?  Do not get me wrong, I am 100% supportive of it if the market dictates it.  But if 1/20th of the audience is watching the LPGA (example only) then no.  If the women’s World Cup of soccer draws far less (all matches, worldwide, qualifiers, etc), charges lower ticket prices, has lower attendance...then no.  Same for the other examples.  Feel goodness ultimately leads to failure, bankruptcy, etc.  The market dictates the value, fair or unfair, that is the deal and in FIFA that means the world not just the USA where we lazily give a damn ever four years for three weeks.  The worldwide market for women’s soccer is low, but picking up.  The US women can capitalize at home through sponsorships and “feel goodness” by those dollars....and believe me they will as brands fight over themselves to do so.  By the end of it all we will be sick of it via the hype machine, but that is how it works.

The systemic sexism in this post is staggering.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 08:47:10 AM

48?  There aren't 16 teams being left out that have a legit chance to win the World Cup.  Most of those additional qualifiers would end up being fodder for the big boys.  It's just a reason for them to televise more games and sell more tickets.  Which is fine, but let's be honest, there aren't more than a handful of teams that are going to win the World Cup in any given year.  In it's history, only eight teams, from two confederations, have won.  I think only won team outside of Europe and South America has even made a semifinal.

Fodder not even close to the level of fodder that exists in the already smaller women’s tournament.  And yes it would mean more money and more eyeballs...that is what pays for all of this. 

When you have power houses like Italy not even making the men’s tournament that should tell you something.  Would Italy as the 42nd team draw ratings on the men’s side?  You damn well no they would same for American men’s team.  Would the barely missed out women’s team draw eyeballs.....nope.  And that’s the tale of the tape at the moment.  Maybe it changes down the road, I hope it does, but these are basic laws of economics in TV / Streaming land.  The audience isn’t there consistently, globally, and repeatable outside the hype once every four years.  That is not a winning economic model that can work.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 08:49:18 AM

As I said above, it just isn't about revenue generation.

I know, it is about making a statement so we all feel better.  Your next paycheck instead of money, you get a bunch of attaboys and feelgoods.  Let me know how that works....trust me you will feel better and you can tell the bank it’s ok regarding the mortgage, and the grocery store can cash the feel goods for your food, etc. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 09, 2019, 08:51:25 AM
What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?

Should WNBA players make the same as NBA players?  Should male pornstars make as much as their much higher paid female pornstars?  Should women’s tennis players and LPGA make as much?  Do not get me wrong, I am 100% supportive of it if the market dictates it.  But if 1/20th of the audience is watching the LPGA (example only) then no.  If the women’s World Cup of soccer draws far less (all matches, worldwide, qualifiers, etc), charges lower ticket prices, has lower attendance...then no.  Same for the other examples.  Feel goodness ultimately leads to failure, bankruptcy, etc.  The market dictates the value, fair or unfair, that is the deal and in FIFA that means the world not just the USA where we lazily give a damn ever four years for three weeks.  The worldwide market for women’s soccer is low, but picking up.  The US women can capitalize at home through sponsorships and “feel goodness” by those dollars....and believe me they will as brands fight over themselves to do so.  By the end of it all we will be sick of it via the hype machine, but that is how it works.

So because the women's game has been either overtly or subconsciously suppressed for years within the US, we should continue to do so by not investing equally in both products? Women's sports has only truly existed within the general public's conciousness for the last 20 years whereas the men's sports have existed in some instances since before the invention of television. Taking a snap shot now and saying "well the economics don't make sense" is so short sighted. Honestly, I really think the discussion should be more about investment vs pay (for godsake the women are forced to play soccer on astroturf) but that's me quibbling. Either way, you gotta spend money to make money and if USSF continues to be oblivious to the equity issue they will lose money in the long run.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 08:51:44 AM
The systemic sexism in this post is staggering.

Lol.  No it isn’t, it is based on economic facts.

Lay out your case on why it is sexist....try to take emotion out of it for a minute and use facts.  Please, looking forward to your reasons.  Here’s your chance.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 08:57:49 AM
So because the women's game has been either overtly or subconsciously suppressed for years within the US, we should continue to do so by not investing equally in both products? Women's sports has only truly existed within the general public's conciousness for the last 20 years whereas the men's sports have existed in some instances since before the invention of television. Taking a snap shot now and saying "well the economics don't make sense" is so short sighted. Honestly, I really think the discussion should be more about investment vs pay (for godsake the women are forced to play soccer on astroturf) but that's me quibbling. Either way, you gotta spend money to make money and if USSF continues to be oblivious to the equity issue they will lose money in the long run.

Investment comes from the promise of returns, right?  People who are smart with money will invest if there is a return at the end.  If the opportunity makes sense, go for it. 

Let me ask you a question, how does the women’s pro soccer league in the US draw?  Can you even name the league?  Can you name 3 teams in the league?  Did you know there even was a league? 

If the opportunity is there, smart people will find a way to make it work.  Of course laying out the business case or the challenges that exist in the real world will get one labeled as sexist by those also claiming this accomplishment is equal to UCLA or other dynasties, so there’s that....unicorns, fairy dust and total lack of how media rights and revenue works.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 09:10:22 AM
I'm assuming you mean advertisers wouldn't be on board world wide.

In the US, the Women's World Cup draws a much bigger TV audience then the men. The women's World Cup final beat the men's by 22%.

But why limit it to the US, especially when the money is a global bucket for media rights?

What were global World Cup ratings for men last year in the final vs women this year... it US, but globally.  The number is staggeringly one sided.  Before someone says that is sexist, it is the truth.

3.4 Billion people watched the men’s World Cup last year around the world...almost have the planet’s population.  The women’s numbers won’t be available for a few weeks globally, but it will not come close.  I watched the women’s final in 4K, enjoyed it very much.  Talented players. I worked with Mia Hamm and Lilly years ago.  Much respect to them and to the current players.  Fair or not, this is not how the world sees the game and the eyeballs reflect that.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 09:14:45 AM
What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?

But once again, the women's team is generating at least as much, if not more, revenue for the USSF, yet being paid less.
As someone who apparently believes this should be based entirely on current economics (ignoring trends and potential growth, which is super smart), why aren't you demanding the women get paid more than the men?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 09:33:58 AM
But once again, the women's team is generating at least as much, if not more, revenue for the USSF, yet being paid less.
As someone who apparently believes this should be based entirely on current economics (ignoring trends and potential growth, which is super smart), why aren't you demanding the women get paid more than the men?

Because that is not how the revenue streams are tied in, and you know this.  The USSF revenues are not sourced that way, it is a combination of inflows.

Forbes reported “the men's World Cup in Russia (2018) generated over $6 billion in revenue, with the participating teams sharing $400 million… Meanwhile, the Women's World Cup is expected to earn $131 million for the full four-year cycle 2019-22 and dole out $30 million to the participating teams.”

Globally, the men’s side brings in 40 times more.  Let’s not forget that USSF earns a big chunk of their revenues based on pot contributions from FIFA.  Yes, they also earn from sponsorships, etc, but those are sold as a bundle with men and women together, so how are you claiming with certainty that they are bringing in more revenue?  Back to the pot contribution, the men’s tournament brings in 40x what the women’s tournament does.  Those revenues are distributed to the national governing bodies and paid out.

On a proportional basis, the men are actually paid LESS than the women considering the massive amounts of revenue the men’s tournament brings in globally....which is a large source of revenue for USSF.


I’m all for fairness, separate the teams revenues moving forward.  Do women’s only sponsorships and keep the books separate.  Sell the women’s media rights separately, too.  That way it is clean and you will get a true read.  My advice, having done this type of work the last 10 years, this would go badly for those claiming they want equal distributions.  Bundling them together helps with scale and pricing leverage, but have at it and prove your worth worldwide....go for it....make it a long term deal, too.  Should be fun to watch that economic experiment play out.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 09:41:02 AM
Because that is not how the revenue streams are tied in, and you know this.  The USSF revenues are not sourced that way, it is a combination of inflows.

Forbes reported “the men's World Cup in Russia (2018) generated over $6 billion in revenue, with the participating teams sharing $400 million… Meanwhile, the Women's World Cup is expected to earn $131 million for the full four-year cycle 2019-22 and dole out $30 million to the participating teams.”

Uhh ... you realize that USSF revenues aren't exclusively generated by a quadrennial tournament, right?
And given that the USMNT didn't qualify for the 2018 WC, I can think of only one reason why you're citing those figures.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 09, 2019, 09:57:08 AM
Investment comes from the promise of returns, right?  People who are smart with money will invest if there is a return at the end.  If the opportunity makes sense, go for it. 

Let me ask you a question, how does the women’s pro soccer league in the US draw?  Can you even name the league?  Can you name 3 teams in the league?  Did you know there even was a league? 

If the opportunity is there, smart people will find a way to make it work.  Of course laying out the business case or the challenges that exist in the real world will get one labeled as sexist by those also claiming this accomplishment is equal to UCLA or other dynasties, so there’s that....unicorns, fairy dust and total lack of how media rights and revenue works.

Ah, the ole smart people argument. Plus I'm not talking about the domestic leagues, that's a whole different argument that is much more impacted by local factors, etc. I'm talking about investing equally in the national team. The numbers show that the women's team draws eyeballs, why underinvest in that market? Honestly, my only explanation is the old school "girls sports aren't as interesting/good/valuable as boys sports".
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 09, 2019, 10:03:34 AM
Lol.  No it isn’t, it is based on economic facts.

Lay out your case on why it is sexist....try to take emotion out of it for a minute and use facts.  Please, looking forward to your reasons.  Here’s your chance.

It is based on economic fact, but just because it is economic fact doesn't mean it isn't also systematically sexist. The reason the men's team generates more revenue is because we live in a sexist society that prefers watching men's sports over women's sports simply because it's men playing. And because of this, men will get more pay and more investment meaning men will have more opportunities to go into sports whereas women will have less so the gap will continue to widen which will reinforce the sexist culture around sports which will lead to men getting paid more and.....so on and so forth.

But you are right in the sense that we can't make economic decisions solely on what's right or fair because that leads to bankruptcy and collapse which is bad for everyone. The best way to fix the disparity IMHO is to work on the sexism in our society so the next generation maybe enjoys women's sports a little bit more than the current generation, thus earning more investment, which increases opportunities for women to go into sports which will narrow the gap which will continue to improve the sexist culture around sports which will lead to....and so on and so forth.

That being said, I think investing a little bit extra than what the market demands because we think it is right and fair to do so is not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on July 09, 2019, 10:23:18 AM
It is based on economic fact, but just because it is economic fact doesn't mean it isn't also systematically sexist. The reason the men's team generates more revenue is because we live in a sexist society that prefers watching men's sports over women's sports simply because it's men playing. And because of this, men will get more pay and more investment meaning men will have more opportunities to go into sports whereas women will have less so the gap will continue to widen which will reinforce the sexist culture around sports which will lead to men getting paid more and.....so on and so forth.

But you are right in the sense that we can't make economic decisions solely on what's right or fair because that leads to bankruptcy and collapse which is bad for everyone. The best way to fix the disparity IMHO is to work on the sexism in our society so the next generation maybe enjoys women's sports a little bit more than the current generation, thus earning more investment, which increases opportunities for women to go into sports which will narrow the gap which will continue to improve the sexist culture around sports which will lead to....and so on and so forth.

That being said, I think investing a little bit extra than what the market demands because we think it is right and fair to do so is not a bad idea.

I think you are overstating it here. 

As a general rule, people the best participants in any sport (absent some sort of affinity to a particular team or participant). The fact is that the things that make basketball exciting (fast play, dunks, etc.) men can outperform women.  If Natisha Heidemann played as well as any NBA player, no one would care which set of naughty bits she had.

On the other hand, women's gymnastics is more popular than men's.  People would rather watch a woman on the balance beam that a guy doing the pommel horse.  Perhaps balance beam were a men's event, they might theoretically be better, but some of the things people like about gymnastics (grace, flexibility), women are better at.  And to be honest, I am not sure Simone Biles wouldn't kick the men's teams ass if she decided to take up parallel bars or rings.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 09, 2019, 10:28:16 AM
Lol.  No it isn’t, it is based on economic facts.

Lay out your case on why it is sexist....try to take emotion out of it for a minute and use facts.  Please, looking forward to your reasons.  Here’s your chance.

Your mistake, and where you reveal your sexism, was in citing porn stars. The reason female porn stars embody that position is for the gratification of men.

Accepting this as "okay", which your post implicitly did, indicated a support for systemic constructs that elevate men over women. You are saying that it's okay for women to be paid on par with or above men only when that serves men's needs.

This is systemic sexism 101. We will keep women down unless it gratifies men.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 10:35:05 AM
I think you are overstating it here. 

As a general rule, people the best participants in any sport (absent some sort of affinity to a particular team or participant). The fact is that the things that make basketball exciting (fast play, dunks, etc.) men can outperform women.  If Natisha Heidemann played as well as any NBA player, no one would care which set of naughty bits she had.

On the other hand, women's gymnastics is more popular than men's.  People would rather watch a woman on the balance beam that a guy doing the pommel horse.  Perhaps balance beam were a men's event, they might theoretically be better, but some of the things people like about gymnastics (grace, flexibility), women are better at.  And to be honest, I am not sure Simone Biles wouldn't kick the men's teams ass if she decided to take up parallel bars or rings.

If people want to see the best participants in any sport, how do you explain the popularity of college sports?
Why did 40 million people attend a minor league baseball game last year?
Why do many Canadian junior hockey teams average more than 5,000 fans per game?

"People want to see the best" is just one of many factors for sports popularity/attendance/viewership. TAMU's remark that women's sports are viewed as lesser simply because they're played by women is another factor.

FWIW, the reason women's gymnastics are more popular than men's (and same for figure skating) is that those sports, and Olympic sports in general, are far more popular among woman viewers and spectators, not because women are better at gymnastics or skating than men.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 09, 2019, 10:36:25 AM
What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?


The statement it makes is that when you have two people working for the same organization and doing the same job, they should be paid a similar amount.  Especially when the people who are actually successful at their job, makes less than those who aren't.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: warriorchick on July 09, 2019, 11:00:39 AM
If people want to see the best participants in any sport, how do you explain the popularity of college sports?
Why did 40 million people attend a minor league baseball game last year?
Why do many Canadian junior hockey teams average more than 5,000 fans per game?

"People want to see the best" is just one of many factors for sports popularity/attendance/viewership. TAMU's remark that women's sports are viewed as lesser simply because they're played by women is another factor.

FWIW, the reason women's gymnastics are more popular than men's (and same for figure skating) is that those sports, and Olympic sports in general, are far more popular among woman viewers and spectators, not because women are better at gymnastics or skating than men.

The majority of the folks who attend the sports you mention in your first paragraph do so because of either affinity to the school or region the team represents (as I mentioned) or because they can't see better teams in person, or they can't afford to.  How many people would watch the Schaumburg Flyers if it cost the same as a Cubs game? Who watches junior hockey that involves two teams they have no connection to?

And if women's gymnastics is only popular because women watch it, why aren't the WNBA games packing arenas with women?  I see plenty of women at NBA games.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 11:07:48 AM
The majority of the folks who attend the sports you mention in your first paragraph do so because of either affinity to the school or region the team represents (as I mentioned) or because they can't see better teams in person, or they can't afford to.  How many people would watch the Schaumburg Flyers if it cost the same as a Cubs game? Who watches junior hockey that involves two teams they have no connection to?

So, what you're saying is that there are many factors why people watch/attend a sporting event beyond wanting to see the best.
We agree.

Quote
And if women's gymnastics is only popular because women watch it, why aren't the WNBA games packing arenas with women?  I see plenty of women at NBA games.
This is a complete bastardization of what I wrote.
And also a terrible analogy.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WarriorDad on July 09, 2019, 11:21:46 AM
Let's also not diminish their accomplishments. Their level of dominance is ridiculous. While it would be easy to say no one else is on the USA women's level, the world has had decades to catch up and based on results the USA women have pulled further away rather than letting the world close the gap. They've won three of the last four major tournaments (including Olympics) and overall have won 8/14 overall. Countries like China, Germany, Brazil, & Sweden were powers that never overtook us, while new rising nations like France, England, & the Netherlands still aren't there.

This is one of the most dominant programs in sports history. Based on the sport's history, the smarter money is on taking the USA than the field in major international tournaments. In a world where there's a constant trend towards sports parity, the USWNT has defied that.

I said it was an incredible accomplishment. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jsglow on July 09, 2019, 11:31:18 AM
I think what we're seeing here is the usual migration to extreme camps.  Do I think that the US Women's soccer team has a valid point about compensation disparity and could something be done to level the field somewhat?  Sure, I'm all ears as to a reasonable idea. 

Do I think folks are 'sexist' because they prefer watching Giannis to (pick your favorite WNBA star)?  Of course not.  Ridiculous. 

Should that WNBA star be paid the same as Giannis?  Sure, but only if she (and the league) can find someone to foot the bill.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WarriorDad on July 09, 2019, 11:34:06 AM

The statement it makes is that when you have two people working for the same organization and doing the same job, they should be paid a similar amount.  Especially when the people who are actually successful at their job, makes less than those who aren't.

Jumping in here.  Do you not lose control of your argument rather quickly with some examples?

Not all quarterbacks are paid the same on the same team, despite doing the same job and working for the same organization.  A team of lawyers may be paid differently based on experience, cases they win, workload.  In sales, the team that is producing revenues will be paid more than those that are producing less, even though same organization and job.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WarriorDad on July 09, 2019, 11:37:17 AM
I think what we're seeing here is the usual migration to extreme camps.  Do I think that the US Women's soccer team has a valid point about compensation disparity and could something be done to level the field somewhat?  Sure, I'm all ears as to a reasonable idea. 

Do I think folks are 'sexist' because they prefer watching Giannis to (pick your favorite WNBA star)?  Of course not.  Ridiculous. 

Should that WNBA star be paid the same as Giannis?  Sure, but only if she (and the league) can find someone to foot the bill.

Some good comments here, especially the last one.  It is easy to spend other people’s money and claim lack of fairness.  People and organizations that foot the bills usually do it with a profit motive in mind, and if it doesn’t pencil out they will not do it.  That isn’t sexist, racist, ageist, but simple math.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 11:38:05 AM
Jumping in here.  Do you not lose control of your argument rather quickly with some examples?

Not all quarterbacks are paid the same on the same team, despite doing the same job and working for the same organization.  A team of lawyers may be paid differently based on experience, cases they win, workload.  In sales, the team that is producing revenues will be paid more than those that are producing less, even though same organization and job.

I don't necessarily think anyone disagrees with this (though it wouldn't be accurate to suggest all quarterbacks on the same team are doing the same job, would it?) .
The question here, at least for me, is why are members of the USWNT being paid less than members of the USMNT, when they're more successful on the field AND producing more revenue for the national federation?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WarriorDad on July 09, 2019, 11:46:30 AM
I don't necessarily think anyone disagrees with this (though it wouldn't be accurate to suggest all quarterbacks on the same team are doing the same job, would it?) .
The question here, at least for me, is why are members of the USWNT being paid less than members of the USMNT, when they're more successful on the field AND producing more revenue for the national federation?

The backup QB becomes the starting QB the moment the starter is hurt or if the coach benches him.  In that case, the salary of the QB doesn’t become the same as the QB that was starting despite doing the same job.

I do not know enough about the particulars to answer your second question.  From what reading I have done (trying to stay away from the emotional articles that seem to not always include all the facts), it is a complicated source of revenue from various sources. Some of those are directly controlled by the US governing body, but some come from FIFA.  The FIFA money is mostly from the men’s tv deal in the World Cup I think.  It also appears that the money specifically coming in directly for the US agency is tied with the women and men together. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 09, 2019, 11:47:00 AM
Jumping in here.  Do you not lose control of your argument rather quickly with some examples?

Not all quarterbacks are paid the same on the same team, despite doing the same job and working for the same organization.  A team of lawyers may be paid differently based on experience, cases they win, workload.  In sales, the team that is producing revenues will be paid more than those that are producing less, even though same organization and job.

People who are better at their job usually are paid more than those who aren't.  Which is actually a reason why the women should be paid more.


I think what we're seeing here is the usual migration to extreme camps.  Do I think that the US Women's soccer team has a valid point about compensation disparity and could something be done to level the field somewhat?  Sure, I'm all ears as to a reasonable idea. 

I guess it's all about how you define "reasonable."
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 09, 2019, 12:28:36 PM
I think what we're seeing here is the usual migration to extreme camps.  Do I think that the US Women's soccer team has a valid point about compensation disparity and could something be done to level the field somewhat?  Sure, I'm all ears as to a reasonable idea. 

Do I think folks are 'sexist' because they prefer watching Giannis to (pick your favorite WNBA star)?  Of course not.  Ridiculous. 

Should that WNBA star be paid the same as Giannis?  Sure, but only if she (and the league) can find someone to foot the bill.

Glow, if you think my position is an extreme camp, then the one you jump into in your last sentence is just as extreme in the other direction.

The disproportionate amount of support, interest, and funding for men's sports when compared to women's creates more opportunity for men and less opportunity for women. That is by definition, sexist. It's no one person's fault, you aren't a bad person if you watch men's sports more than women's sports (God knows I do), but it is a reality that they way things are currently set up benefit male athletes over female ones.

Despite this, I recognize the economics that drive things and they need to make sense otherwise the whole system falls apart which makes things worse for everyone. So disparity is inevitable but I think assigning some money to help increase the popularity of women's sports is not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 09, 2019, 12:38:07 PM
Despite this, I recognize the economics that drive things and they need to make sense otherwise the whole system falls apart which makes things worse for everyone. So disparity is inevitable but I think assigning some money to help increase the popularity of women's sports is not a bad thing.

This is where I'm at, there needs to be some market making here on the women's side. The systemic issues are never overcome, and it's not a pejorative position as you said.....no one's fault per se but we are trying to create equal opportunity we have to invest more than the pure economics say they should.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 01:03:00 PM
Uhh ... you realize that USSF revenues aren't exclusively generated by a quadrennial tournament, right?
And given that the USMNT didn't qualify for the 2018 WC, I can think of only one reason why you're citing those figures.

Correct, and didn’t I say that revenues come from multiple sources?

Interesting article that the women are paid more

https://thefederalist.com/2019/07/08/yes-soccer-pay-gap-women-make-men/
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 01:10:56 PM
Correct, and didn’t I say that revenues come from multiple sources?

Interesting article that the women are paid more

https://thefederalist.com/2019/07/08/yes-soccer-pay-gap-women-make-men/

Did you actually read the story? Because it doesn't say that.
And again, it focuses solely on revenue from a single quadrennial tournament, not total revenues generated by the respective USMNT vs USWNT.
So, not only does it not say what you say it does, but it cherrypicks revenue sources in order to reach a false conclusion.

And, then there's this gem of a sentence that's 100 percent not sexist:
"Lastly, men’s sports, especially men’s team sports, are inherently more entertaining to watch than women’s."
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 01:16:21 PM
Ah, the ole smart people argument. Plus I'm not talking about the domestic leagues, that's a whole different argument that is much more impacted by local factors, etc. I'm talking about investing equally in the national team. The numbers show that the women's team draws eyeballs, why underinvest in that market? Honestly, my only explanation is the old school "girls sports aren't as interesting/good/valuable as boys sports".

Do they do domestically?  Are they drawing eyeballs in the women’s pro league here?  You sure about that.   :)

And yes there are smart people out there that will try to make money on worm racing if it paid off, they don’t care if it is women’s sports, men’s, etc.  That has not materialized to the same level.  Some of that is cultural, if Brew wants to say it is institutional sexism...fine....the reality is there are a lot of people that don’t find it entertaining.  I’ve been in this business 25 years...I love women’s sports, find it highly entertaining, love the opportunities it affords women and girls, it is why I am so worried about paying college players and what that could do to destroy those opportunities.....but but but, there are large swaths of people that just don’t care about women’s sports.  Or for that matter men’s sports.  You cannot force a fan of men’s sports to be a fan of women’s sports.  Some here jump to it being sexist.  Is it sexist that some guy finds men’s basketball more appealing than women’s?  I don’t think so.  Different game, different styles, different athleticism.  If same guy loves women’s softball but doesn’t like women’s hoops or soccer...is he sexist? 

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 01:22:41 PM
Your mistake, and where you reveal your sexism, was in citing porn stars. The reason female porn stars embody that position is for the gratification of men.

Accepting this as "okay", which your post implicitly did, indicated a support for systemic constructs that elevate men over women. You are saying that it's okay for women to be paid on par with or above men only when that serves men's needs.

This is systemic sexism 101. We will keep women down unless it gratifies men.

Okay, uhm wildly off base, but ok.  I didn’t realize porn was only there for male gratification....I thought viewers varied...JayBee can weigh in.


So the jobs in which women make more than men, and there are many you can look up, which don’t slot into your definition of male gratification, please explain how it is systemically sexist.  Replace porn actress with any of those other jobs if it suits you. Looking forward to your response.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 09, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
Do they do domestically?  Are they drawing eyeballs in the women’s pro league here?  You sure about that.   :)

And yes there are smart people out there that will try to make money on worm racing if it paid off, they don’t care if it is women’s sports, men’s, etc.  That has not materialized to the same level.  Some of that is cultural, if Brew wants to say it is institutional sexism...fine....the reality is there are a lot of people that don’t find it entertaining.  I’ve been in this business 25 years...I love women’s sports, find it highly entertaining, love the opportunities it affords women and girls, it is why I am so worried about paying college players and what that could do to destroy those opportunities.....but but but, there are large swaths of people that just don’t care about women’s sports.  Or for that matter men’s sports.  You cannot force a fan of men’s sports to be a fan of women’s sports.  Some here jump to it being sexist.  Is it sexist that some guy finds men’s basketball more appealing than women’s?  I don’t think so.  Different game, different styles, different athleticism.  If same guy loves women’s softball but doesn’t like women’s hoops or soccer...is he sexist?

You are mixing up institutionalized/systematic sexism and individual sexism. No one in this thread is saying that if you prefer men's sports over women's sports that you are sexist. We are saying that the way things are currently set up creates more opportunities for male athletes than female athletes.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 01:27:59 PM
This is where I'm at, there needs to be some market making here on the women's side. The systemic issues are never overcome, and it's not a pejorative position as you said.....no one's fault per se but we are trying to create equal opportunity we have to invest more than the pure economics say they should.

Aha.  The feel goodness is back, glad we are finally fleshing this out which is what the argument was from the start.

Now, who is paying...erh...offering up the charity so we can all feel good?  That’s the economic question.  And isn’t there a lot of “feel good” things we could be doing that also aren’t funded that need way higher prioritization than this?

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 01:32:07 PM
Aha.  The feel goodness is back, glad we are finally fleshing this out which is what the argument was from the start.

Now, who is paying...erh...offering up the charity so we can all feel good?  That’s the economic question.  And isn’t there a lot of “feel good” things we could be doing that also aren’t funded that need way higher prioritization than this?

I'm curious as to why you have a very different economic stance when it comes to college athletics.

Also, it's not about feeling good. It's about investing in something with significant growth potential.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 09, 2019, 01:39:58 PM
Aha.  The feel goodness is back, glad we are finally fleshing this out which is what the argument was from the start.

Now, who is paying...erh...offering up the charity so we can all feel good?  That’s the economic question.  And isn’t there a lot of “feel good” things we could be doing that also aren’t funded that need way higher prioritization than this?

What's wrong with economically feasible feel goodness?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 09, 2019, 01:45:21 PM
I have not followed tennis that much, but do male tennis players make more or the same as female tennis players? If the male players make more I wonder why that would be as it seems to me that both men and women get equal exposure at the big 4 tennis events. Are ticket prices different for men vs women at these events? Are TV rights distributed equally between the men and women?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 01:48:44 PM
I have not followed tennis that much, but do male tennis players make more or the same as female tennis players? If the male players make more I wonder why that would be as it seems to me that both men and women get equal exposure at the big 4 tennis events. Are ticket prices different for men vs women at these events? Are TV rights distributed equally between the men and women?

The pay in the tennis grand slams is now equal, but that's a relatively recent development. Wimbledon was the last holdout, when it made the prize money equal in 2007.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 09, 2019, 02:29:58 PM
What's wrong with economically feasible feel goodness?

Is this code for “welfare”?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 09, 2019, 02:50:36 PM
Is this code for “welfare”?

It's code for doing the right thing because you can. No different than corporations giving employees time to volunteer in the community or donating to local charities, etc. Economically it doesn't make a ton of sense but it has positive impact so why not.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 03:36:42 PM
I'm curious as to why you have a very different economic stance when it comes to college athletics.

Also, it's not about feeling good. It's about investing in something with significant growth potential.

It is about feel goodness, this is just the latest faux rage out there. 

My stances are different in pro and college sports because pro sports is self contained, the money comes in and supports that team, league.  It is driven solely by market forces.

College sports, to a large degree, are not.  The vast majority of sports in college are revenue losing, and market forces exist only for a small portion of college sports.  If you went to a professional model, you would destroy massive opportunities that currently exist and rip them away.  The revenue sports subsidize the losers because we have deemed it valuable that a college student can represent her school while playing tennis and earning a scholarship.  The money from the pot of NCAA money allows that to happen.

Two different models.  That’s why.  If college students want to get paid, go pro. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 03:44:49 PM
Did you actually read the story? Because it doesn't say that.
And again, it focuses solely on revenue from a single quadrennial tournament, not total revenues generated by the respective USMNT vs USWNT.
So, not only does it not say what you say it does, but it cherrypicks revenue sources in order to reach a false conclusion.

And, then there's this gem of a sentence that's 100 percent not sexist:
"Lastly, men’s sports, especially men’s team sports, are inherently more entertaining to watch than women’s."
In fact he does say that.

Is that last statement sexist or their opinion of the entertainment.  Feels like a broad opinion made by the author is based on what capabilities exist and style of play, etc,  If the type of basketball you find entertaining means 10 dunks a game, would you find the women’s game exciting?  Probably not.  If someone finds ice skating entertaining more than football because women are more graceful, etc...are they sexist against men?  I don’t think so in that case either.

People want to make something out of anything these days.  Could the comment be sexist...yes.  Is it?  Not necessarily so.  Apparently it depends who says the what.  Suppose a female author made the same comment about the entertainment value, is it sexist?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jsglow on July 09, 2019, 03:54:17 PM
Glow, if you think my position is an extreme camp, then the one you jump into in your last sentence is just as extreme in the other direction.

The disproportionate amount of support, interest, and funding for men's sports when compared to women's creates more opportunity for men and less opportunity for women. That is by definition, sexist. It's no one person's fault, you aren't a bad person if you watch men's sports more than women's sports (God knows I do), but it is a reality that they way things are currently set up benefit male athletes over female ones.

Despite this, I recognize the economics that drive things and they need to make sense otherwise the whole system falls apart which makes things worse for everyone. So disparity is inevitable but I think assigning some money to help increase the popularity of women's sports is not a bad thing.

At the collegiate level we do assign money.  Lots and lots of it.  I'd argue that's been a net positive, especially as it pertains to the development of young women.  Secondly, doesn't the NBA provide economic support in some fashion to the WNBA in much the same way it supports the D league?  I could be wrong on that.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 03:56:15 PM
It is about feel goodness, this is just the latest faux rage out there. 

My stances are different in pro and college sports because pro sports is self contained, the money comes in and supports that team, league.  It is driven solely by market forces.

College sports, to a large degree, are not.  The vast majority of sports in college are revenue losing, and market forces exist only for a small portion of college sports.  If you went to a professional model, you would destroy massive opportunities that currently exist and rip them away.  The revenue sports subsidize the losers because we have deemed it valuable that a college student can represent her school while playing tennis and earning a scholarship.  The money from the pot of NCAA money allows that to happen.

Two different models.  That’s why.  If college students want to get paid, go pro.

This makes no sense. You're essentially saying "It's different because ... um, it's different."
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 09, 2019, 04:00:23 PM
In fact he does say that.

He says it ... but nothing in the actual article supports it. Again, if you read it, you would see that. Nowhere in the artiicle does it support the conclusion that the women's team is paid more.

Quote
Is that last statement sexist or their opinion of the entertainment.
It's sexist.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 09, 2019, 04:08:39 PM
Okay, uhm wildly off base, but ok.  I didn’t realize porn was only there for male gratification....I thought viewers varied...JayBee can weigh in.


So the jobs in which women make more than men, and there are many you can look up, which don’t slot into your definition of male gratification, please explain how it is systemically sexist.  Replace porn actress with any of those other jobs if it suits you. Looking forward to your response.

Wildly off base because you brought up an industry that exists for make gratification and fuels the exploitation and trafficking of women? AYFKM?

Your every argument is completely disingenuous. "I didn't realize porn was only there for male gratification"?!? Cut the crap. This is proof you have no interest in an honest discussion, just muddying the waters with BS & obfuscation.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 09, 2019, 04:10:14 PM
It is about feel goodness, this is just the latest faux rage out there.


Treating people with genders more equally is just "feel goodness?"
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 09, 2019, 04:15:02 PM
This makes no sense. You're essentially saying "It's different because ... um, it's different."

Leave chicos alone; he actually is being consistent. In one case, he gets to keep the women down; in the other, he gets to keep the college kids down. He has always been the champion of the overdog, so nothing new there.

I was wondering why Scoop had been relatively chill the last week or so, with relatively few folks arguing for the sake of arguing; chicos musta been on vacation.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 05:28:21 PM
What's wrong with economically feasible feel goodness?

Define economically feasible. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 09, 2019, 05:37:51 PM
I have not followed tennis that much, but do male tennis players make more or the same as female tennis players? If the male players make more I wonder why that would be as it seems to me that both men and women get equal exposure at the big 4 tennis events. Are ticket prices different for men vs women at these events? Are TV rights distributed equally between the men and women?

Depends.  Grand slams it is, even though viewership for the men’s events is higher usually (that’s structural sexism right there).  There’s a reason the men play on Sunday and the women on Saturday....some of it historical, but also linked to $$.


You guys want to help solve the women’s World Cup Pay “disparity”, then have the men and women play the World Cup at the same time, same venues in a package deal just like tennis does.  That way you bundle all the sales of tickets, sponsorships, tv rights at one time.  You have to buy both, cannot separate them out.  Now, in that situation the women will get more money mostly on the backs of the fees paid a for the men’s rights, but t would solve the problem and take away the nonsensical arguments people are making that don’t understand rights fees, $$$, or want to make hysterical comments not grounded in dollars and cents.  It also gives the feel gooders what they want.  The only “losers” in this is the men on a percentage basis, but the hope would be that by combining you grow the pie big enough to make them whole while also massively exploding the women’s payouts.

Not going to happen, but that solves much of the problem.


Done....I have a eulogy to write, and this is about as stressful a thing as I have ever done....want to get it right.  Peace. Out.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Herman Cain on July 09, 2019, 05:43:51 PM
Want to comment here but didn't have a good post to respond to. I enjoy and respect woman athletes.  I like the fact that there are numerous woman's collegiate teams and  that womans professional leagues have developed over the years.

I don't however believe in "pay equality" . Athletics is the last bastion in society where merit counts the most.

Have had experience with a number of professional sports owners and leagues over the years. I can safely say if woman can bring value they will get paid. In fact, one of the leagues I worked with was the Womans Tennis Association. Womans Tennis pay their major champions as much as the men. In fact overall the woman are more popular than the men and are compensated accordingly.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 09, 2019, 08:10:17 PM
Lol.  No it isn’t, it is based on economic facts.

Lay out your case on why it is sexist....try to take emotion out of it for a minute and use facts.  Please, looking forward to your reasons.  Here’s your chance.

well. but, but , umm, hang on...wait, yeah, well, damn it was right on the tip of my tongue,  do-do do, dah dah dah, i'll probably remember it after i walk out the room, hey,  if it ain't sexism, it's gotta be one of those 'isms, I have a toothache? ::)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 09, 2019, 08:47:55 PM
Want to comment here but didn't have a good post to respond to. I enjoy and respect woman athletes.  I like the fact that there are numerous woman's collegiate teams and  that womans professional leagues have developed over the years.

I don't however believe in "pay equality" . Athletics is the last bastion in society where merit counts the most.

Have had experience with a number of professional sports owners and leagues over the years. I can safely say if woman can bring value they will get paid. In fact, one of the leagues I worked with was the Womans Tennis Association. Womans Tennis pay their major champions as much as the men. In fact overall the woman are more popular than the men and are compensated accordingly.

Did you get the young ones intentionally drunk so as to have sex with them?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 09, 2019, 09:55:46 PM
Define economically feasible.

Every person will have a different definition. I think it is fair to say that it is somewhere between more than what pro leagues are doing now and less than equal pay.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 09, 2019, 10:01:54 PM
well. but, but , umm, hang on...wait, yeah, well, damn it was right on the tip of my tongue,  do-do do, dah dah dah, i'll probably remember it after i walk out the room, hey,  if it ain't sexism, it's gotta be one of those 'isms, I have a toothache? ::)

Several people have offered answers to his question so I'm not sure why the sarcasm.

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 09, 2019, 11:36:24 PM
Fair, I'm reacting to the general mixing of international soccer and US soccer both within this thread and with the public/media discussion. If we are discussing salary/revenue for US Women Soccer vs US Men Soccer I think you have a valid point, though I'm not privy to all the USSF revenue models so I don't know what US women are generating versus men but either way from an investment standpoint the US women should be getting at least the same as men IMO. Even if the women weren't this good, as a policy USSF should be investing equally in both because they have to grow the game for everybody if they want to succeed in the men's game.

However, we muddy the waters when we talk about the women and men at the international level from a pay/revenue standpoint. Example, I've continually seen the reporting around the 2022 Men's reward pool being at $440M where the women's pool is going to be at $60M in 2023. It is pointed at as a glaring example of inequality but at the international level the women's WC generates significantly less eyeballs/revenue than does the men's tournament. The US is by far the highest viewership of the women's game, I know England had record viewership this WC, but overall it is miniscual compared to the men's tournament. There are all sorts of reasons for that both cultural and quality in nature that should be addressed but it is what it is right now. At the international level, women get a higher share of the reported revenue in the reward pool than do the men and it is split amongst fewer players.

For me it comes down to the US women are underpaid and the international women's programs are probably fairly compensated at this time though I would certainly welcome more investment from FIFA in the women's game so that it can be more competitive. Anything else is just one faction or the other trying to "win the argument"

Agreed. After I wrote the last post, I realized we were agreeing more than we were disagreeing. But not necessarily having a meeting of the minds on the groundwork of the discussion.

For those wondering. Here is a link that outlines revenue, and an associated link to a WSJ article also examining audited revenue statements from the USSF indicating Women earn more.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/us-womens-soccer-games-now-generate-more-revenue-than-mens.html

A key note, Chico's likes to claim that since they bundle media deals and licensing deals, "one can't determine who generates more revenue". He uses that as support that the men really earn more.

Well, the women draw bigger audiences, both on television and at the gate. So they are much more desirable for advertisers. Unless advertisers suddenly prefer to pay more for smaller audiences, it is pretty simple to see what generates more revenue for US media rights.

Similar for licensing deals. The audience is there for the women. They are driving licensing deal revenue also.

Yet, they are paid less, because...?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 10, 2019, 06:17:20 AM
Several people have offered answers to his question so I'm not sure why the sarcasm.

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?

not in all situations tamu-supply and demand as has been mentioned and rightly so.  just because one event appears more popular at the moment doesn't automatically bring it up to the level of the other.  are we sexist as a society because we favor NBA over WNBA? why do the woman warriors play in the Al and not FISERV like the guys?  the pay scale isn't sexist, the paying(or not paying) customers are sexist.  if only we would all go to ALL of the events and pay equal or more amounts to each, right?  it is what it is.  why do more people go to see female singer x over male singer y?  sexism?  many examples to be made. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 10, 2019, 07:56:23 AM
Ticker tape parade today in NYC.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 10, 2019, 09:51:35 AM
The pay in the tennis grand slams is now equal, but that's a relatively recent development. Wimbledon was the last holdout, when it made the prize money equal in 2007.

And here, one might have been able to make a case that men "deserve" more because they have to play best 3-of-5 while women play 2-of-3. So a men's match can take 4 or 5 hours, double the court time of even a long women's match.

Having said that, glad they made the pay equal. It takes the same amount of training and the same degree of sacrifice for a woman to be great at tennis.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 10, 2019, 10:18:32 AM
not in all situations tamu-supply and demand as has been mentioned and rightly so.  just because one event appears more popular at the moment doesn't automatically bring it up to the level of the other.  are we sexist as a society because we favor NBA over WNBA? why do the woman warriors play in the Al and not FISERV like the guys?  the pay scale isn't sexist, the paying(or not paying) customers are sexist.  if only we would all go to ALL of the events and pay equal or more amounts to each, right?  it is what it is.  why do more people go to see female singer x over male singer y?  sexism?  many examples to be made.

So you admit more people like watching men's athletics and that women play in worse facilities than men. Those are two of the many examples of how the status quo favors male athletes over female athletes.

Again, no one is calling you or any other person a sexist. No one is even saying that you or anyone else is acting sexist. The comment is that the current system gives significantly more advantages to male athletes than to female athletes. That is institutionalized sexism.

No one is disputing the economics. But just because something is economically sound doesn't mean it isn't also sexist.

I also have no idea what you are talking about with female singers. Amongst the most popular singers today, the vast majority are male. This article is from early 2018 so it's a tad bit dated: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/arts/music/music-industry-gender-study-women-artists-producers.html
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 10, 2019, 10:53:36 AM
So you admit more people like watching men's athletics and that women play in worse facilities than men. Those are two of the many examples of how the status quo favors male athletes over female athletes.

Again, no one is calling you or any other person a sexist. No one is even saying that you or anyone else is acting sexist. The comment is that the current system gives significantly more advantages to male athletes than to female athletes. That is institutionalized sexism.

No one is disputing the economics. But just because something is economically sound doesn't mean it isn't also sexist. Does institutional sexism run both ways?

I also have no idea what you are talking about with female singers. Amongst the most popular singers today, the vast majority are male. This article is from 2017 so it's a few years old: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/arts/music/music-industry-gender-study-women-artists-producers.html

Is it sexist that more women are enrolled in college than men? Is it sexist that boys are not treated the same as girls in k-12 education?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 10, 2019, 10:54:28 AM
Is it sexist that more women are enrolled in college than men? Is it sexist that boys are not treated the same as girls in k-12 education?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/


No and maybe.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 10, 2019, 11:01:33 AM
Is it sexist that more women are enrolled in college than men? Is it sexist that boys are not treated the same as girls in k-12 education?

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

What Fluffy said. I would need to know what you mean by "not treated the same."

And what does this have to do with the conversation we were having?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 10, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?

Do men generally not play better than women in soccer? What would happen if every country’s best men played the best women... and why should that not matter?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 10, 2019, 11:28:17 AM
Do men generally not play better than women in soccer? What would happen if every country’s best men played the best women... and why should that not matter?



Because that's not how competitions are held.  There are Men's Championships and Women's Championships. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 10, 2019, 11:29:14 AM
What Fluffy said. I would need to know what you mean by "not treated the same."

And what does this have to do with the conversation we were having?

His statement was relevant to the topic of institutionalized sexism in this country.

And some of the origins for what I think he is referring to are examples of institutionalized sexism.

Agree though in not relevant to the issues regarding US soccer.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 10, 2019, 11:30:03 AM
not in all situations tamu-supply and demand as has been mentioned and rightly so.  just because one event appears more popular at the moment doesn't automatically bring it up to the level of the other.  are we sexist as a society because we favor NBA over WNBA? why do the woman warriors play in the Al and not FISERV like the guys?  the pay scale isn't sexist, the paying(or not paying) customers are sexist.  if only we would all go to ALL of the events and pay equal or more amounts to each, right?  it is what it is.  why do more people go to see female singer x over male singer y?  sexism?  many examples to be made.

This is a classic example of emotional reaction to a topic because you feel it's an attack. A lot of the -isms we face in the US today are not intentional nor anyone's "fault" but they are inherent biases none the less. As part of our evolution as a society I think it's important to recognize bias where it exists and make reasonable attempts to limit/eliminate the bias. I'm advocating for equal opportunity not equal results.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 10, 2019, 11:35:02 AM
Do men generally not play better than women in soccer? What would happen if every country’s best men played the best women... and why should that not matter?

I'll lean into where I think you are going. Let's assume that 99 out of 100 that the best men's team can beat the best women's team which very well may have to do with physical differences in the genders, what does a men's team beating a women's team have to do with the economic viability of the women's program. Just because we've been institutionalized (generalization coming) to like men's sports better than women's it does not mean that women's sports can't be just as economically viable as men's sports. In the current culture it is not as economically as viable but that in part of because of the institutional sexism that exists(which is really no ones fault just what has happened over the last 100 years of sport).
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 10, 2019, 01:45:29 PM
This is a classic example of emotional reaction to a topic because you feel it's an attack. A lot of the -isms we face in the US today are not intentional nor anyone's "fault" but they are inherent biases none the less. As part of our evolution as a society I think it's important to recognize bias where it exists and make reasonable attempts to limit/eliminate the bias. I'm advocating for equal opportunity not equal results.

This is an excellent comment, mu03.

There actually are Americans who don't believe there has been (and continues to be) institutional, systemic bias against blacks. It's exhausting to watch them go through the mental gymnastics denying it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 10, 2019, 02:50:18 PM
This is a classic example of emotional reaction to a topic because you feel it's an attack. A lot of the -isms we face in the US today are not intentional nor anyone's "fault" but they are inherent biases none the less. As part of our evolution as a society I think it's important to recognize bias where it exists and make reasonable attempts to limit/eliminate the bias. I'm advocating for equal opportunity not equal results.

Agree 100%.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 10, 2019, 03:12:14 PM
I'll lean into where I think you are going. Let's assume that 99 out of 100 that the best men's team can beat the best women's team which very well may have to do with physical differences in the genders, what does a men's team beating a women's team have to do with the economic viability of the women's program.

What if someone asked you what is sexist about saying, “I’m OK with the better athletes & performers (men) getting paid more because they’re better at the sport”?

Is “better players get better pay” sexist, or is it inherently fair?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: LAZER on July 10, 2019, 03:37:44 PM
Several people have offered answers to his question so I'm not sure why the sarcasm.

The best male athletes in the world are more likely to get paid more than the best female athletes in the world. I think that's an undeniable statement. There are sound economic reasons for that fact. But the fact that the economics favor one sex over the other is sexism, no?
I don't think so.  If people were not supporting women's sports specifically and only because they were women, I would say it is.  Is the Champions Tour economics vs the PGA is an example of ageism? Is the Maccabi Games economics vs the Olympics antisemitism?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 10, 2019, 04:48:09 PM
I don't think so.  If people were not supporting women's sports specifically and only because they were women, I would say it is.

Again, no one is saying any individual is sexist, so it has nothing to do with why individual people are not supporting women's sports. We are saying that the system the status quo makes it much easier for male athletes to make money/fame/recognition/etc than female athletes.

Is the Champions Tour economics vs the PGA is an example of ageism? Is the Maccabi Games economics vs the Olympics antisemitism?

No. People who are Jewish can compete in both the Maccabi games and the Olympics. And unless there is a max age I am not aware of, people who are older can compete in the PGA. Female athletes at this time do not have the option to play in male leagues.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 10, 2019, 05:49:41 PM
What if someone asked you what is sexist about saying, “I’m OK with the better athletes & performers (men) getting paid more because they’re better at the sport”?

Is “better players get better pay” sexist, or is it inherently fair?

The assumption that a man is better at anything let alone a sport is inherently sexist. If you say person A is better at their sport than person B regardless of gender there is nothing wrong with that even if each person is a different gender. It's the generalization that makes it sexist.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 10, 2019, 07:02:29 PM
The assumption that a man is better at anything let alone a sport is inherently sexist. If you say person A is better at their sport than person B regardless of gender there is nothing wrong with that even if each person is a different gender. It's the generalization that makes it sexist.

I disagree. For example, men are better at basketball than women. There are differences - physical and otherwise. And the best men are far better than the best women. Acknowledging obvious facts is sexist in your mind?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 10, 2019, 08:44:49 PM
I disagree. For example, men are better at basketball than women. There are differences - physical and otherwise. And the best men are far better than the best women. Acknowledging obvious facts is sexist in your mind?

Can you define how you are measuring better? Men play above the rim, but does that make it better? You may say you like the mens game better but that doesn't mean its qualitative better. What would you say if someone said they thought the womens game was better? How would you prove them wrong?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 10, 2019, 08:52:58 PM
Can you define how you are measuring better? Men play above the rim, but does that make it better? You may say you like the mens game better but that doesn't mean its qualitative better. What would you say if someone said they thought the womens game was better? How would you prove them wrong?

A men’s team at a “comparable level” would beat the pants off of a women’s team. They are better.

If you start arguing “the women’s game is better”, then you’ve lost your “equal pay” whining — it’s now apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 11, 2019, 12:32:22 AM
I get the argument about institutional sexism. But what I don't get it that because it's all based on advertising what is stopping the vast demographic of women and girls from watching? If they did then ratings go up and I imagine that the TV and Ad money would be there to make women's pay comparable.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 11, 2019, 07:56:29 AM
I get the argument about institutional sexism. But what I don't get it that because it's all based on advertising what is stopping the vast demographic of women and girls from watching? If they did then ratings go up and I imagine that the TV and Ad money would be there to make women's pay comparable.

Who says they wouldn't when it comes to soccer? Women's soccer is on weird channels for the most part or not on at all. I believe when games are on they do fine, but overall you have to work hard to find domestic league games. If it's not there to watch you aren't going to get eyeballs.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 11, 2019, 07:59:34 AM
I get the argument about institutional sexism. But what I don't get it that because it's all based on advertising what is stopping the vast demographic of women and girls from watching? If they did then ratings go up and I imagine that the TV and Ad money would be there to make women's pay comparable.


1. Women don't watch as much sports as men.

2. Women, like men, prefer to watch men's sports than women's sports. They aren't immune to institutional sexism since they are part of society.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 11, 2019, 08:00:24 AM
A men’s team at a “comparable level” would beat the pants off of a women’s team. They are better.

If you start arguing “the women’s game is better”, then you’ve lost your “equal pay” whining — it’s now apples and oranges.

better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 11, 2019, 08:33:11 AM
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

It’s not subjective. You wouldn’t put your money in it and no rationale human would.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 11, 2019, 08:33:32 AM

1. Women don't watch as much sports as men.

2. Women, like men, prefer to watch men's sports than women's sports. They aren't immune to institutional sexism since they are part of society.

My daughter played basketball from the time she was 10 all the way through college (D3). But she just about never watches women's basketball. Loves Marquette, likes the NBA. I watch more women's pro and college hoops than she does.

Not making a "point." Just throwing out an anecdote.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 11, 2019, 08:35:58 AM
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

Won't comment on the pay aspect because I don't believe that there is "one right answer", but the USWNT would get torched by the men's. An argument can be made that the women are just as technical as the men, but when the men are bigger faster stronger it wouldn't even be close.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 11, 2019, 08:42:09 AM
My daughter played basketball from the time she was 10 all the way through college (D3). But she just about never watches women's basketball. Loves Marquette, likes the NBA. I watch more women's pro and college hoops than she does.

Not making a "point." Just throwing out an anecdote.

This anecdote is sortve my point I a microcosm. It's a sport, sports are vying for the public's entertainment dollar. They need to lock down their own demographic before coming to the negotiating table demanding more money.

That being said my understanding is the WNBA is a different story where owners take a disproportionately large chunk of money
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 11, 2019, 08:50:04 AM
This anecdote is sortve my point I a microcosm. It's a sport, sports are vying for the public's entertainment dollar. They need to lock down their own demographic before coming to the negotiating table demanding more money.

That being said my understanding is the WNBA is a different story where owners take a disproportionately large chunk of money

Does women's college basketball's demographic have to be women?

I don't have that answer, just keeping the conversation going.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 11, 2019, 08:53:09 AM
https://twitter.com/pkedit/status/1148650086571712512

Figured this belonged here.  Kinda surprising considering the complete lack of support the women get in Brazil, as well as them hosting, and winning, the Copa America.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 11, 2019, 09:03:32 AM
Does women's college basketball's demographic have to be women?

I don't have that answer, just keeping the conversation going.

No not at all. But I'd say it's a lot easier to compete for a women's entertainment dollar against shows geared for women (the bachelor, love island, etc) than suggesting that men give up one of men's college basketball, NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. again competing for entertainment dollar. And while viewership isn't necessarily a financial decision you're still competing with the other leagues for time in a very busy day
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 11, 2019, 09:15:57 AM
No not at all. But I'd say it's a lot easier to compete for a women's entertainment dollar against shows geared for women (the bachelor, love island, etc) than suggesting that men give up one of men's basketball, NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. again competing for entertainment dollar. And while viewership isn't necessarily a financial decision you're still competing with the other leagues for time in a very busy day

Thanks for the response.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 11, 2019, 11:03:49 AM
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

I still think the men would win. And rather easily.

But if you're going to put up the best women's team, why not against the best men's team? Germany, brazil, etc.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on July 11, 2019, 11:18:34 AM
better is subjective, and quite frankly I'd love to see USMNT play USWNT, I think it would be a lot tighter than most might think. Soccer doesn't have the same impact from physical gender differences than would a basketball game. In the case of basketball, it is just a much more consistently physical game(body on body) that soccer would have.

Did you ever play soccer at a high level?  It is extremely physical.  The women are extremely talented but they wouldn't win 50/50 headers, nobody on the WNT could keep up with wings like Yedlin or even Arriola, and Morgan/Rapinoe/Heath would be constantly knocked off the ball in the final third.  Julie Ertz is one of the most physically imposing and aggressive players in the women's game, and she'd be giving up almost 6 inches to someone like Michael Bradley who plays in the CDM role like she does.  Its just apples to oranges.  And thats not disrespect to them
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 11, 2019, 11:27:32 AM
Did you ever play soccer at a high level?  It is extremely physical.  The women are extremely talented but they wouldn't win 50/50 headers, nobody on the WNT could keep up with wings like Yedlin or even Arriola, and Morgan/Rapinoe/Heath would be constantly knocked off the ball in the final third.  Julie Ertz is one of the most physically imposing and aggressive players in the women's game, and she'd be giving up almost 6 inches to someone like Michael Bradley who plays in the CDM role like she does.  Its just apples to oranges.  And thats not disrespect to them

I played in college and played against a lot of the women in the ODP program growing up including some that ended up on USWNT. I agree that the men are potentially more physically dominant than the women, but I also know in a true men vs women match up some of that physical dominance gets limited by the whistle as well as the natural inclination not to run over a woman, etc. I'm just saying the gap between the physicality of the genders is much higher(or much more impactful) in basketball than it is in soccer, IMO
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Aughnanure on July 11, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
I played in college and played against a lot of the women in the ODP program growing up including some that ended up on USWNT. I agree that the men are potentially more physically dominant than the women, but I also know in a true men vs women match up some of that physical dominance gets limited by the whistle as well as the natural inclination not to run over a woman, etc. I'm just saying the gap between the physicality of the genders is much higher(or much more impactful) in basketball than it is in soccer, IMO

I mean, sure it's different. But you seem to be REALLY undervaluing the athleticism of high-level male soccer players (basketball players are not more athletic or something, there's a reason there is no 6'6 star in soccer besides a goalie here or there). The difference in speed alone would kill the WNT.

This is all dumb, because every time it is brought up it takes away from how good the women's team. Same way I feel about how whenever the USWNT does very well there are the inevitable endless online takes trashing the men's team as garbage - which is wrong, unnecessary, and very unfair in the context it exists in compared to the women's. There's a weird toxic relationship developing I see now between fans of the USMNT and USWNT that almost seems like a rivalry, with some USWNT seemingly rooting against the men's team now.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 11, 2019, 12:54:28 PM
I still think the men would win. And rather easily.

But if you're going to put up the best women's team, why not against the best men's team? Germany, brazil, etc.

Totally anecdotal experience here, but my son played soccer in HS.  The boys team at his school was fairly middle of the pack.  They made the playoffs, but didn't generally get too far.  The girls team at his HS, on the other hand, was outstanding.  They won State five years in a row (and 6 of 7).  They were undefeated for four of those five years.  Number one in the state, and were ranked No. 2 nationally for three or four years.  They were really, really good.  They decided they'd like to play against the boys team.  They talked a lot of trash leading up to the game.  When the boys were up 5-0 relatively early in the game, it was decided to change the format and mix things up and stop with the boys v. girls thing.

Simply put, boys/men have extreme physical advantages over girls/women.  Huge.  I really enjoy watching USWNT play and think they are amazing.  I think USMNT is very disappointing.  But, I think that the men would easily defeat the women.

For the record, I'm perfectly willing to agree that there is a lot of semantic issues tied up with use of word "better."  I think the men's team would soundly defeat the women's team.  Many would say that means that they are "better".  I think that word is flexible enough to be used differently.  A 250 lb lineman who never wrestled might be able to defeat a 106 lb state champion wrestler, but that doesn't mean he's a "better" wrestler.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 11, 2019, 01:29:05 PM
So now the argument becomes, “everyone agrees the men are better, but pay the gals the same anyway, damn it!!! And if you disagree with equal pay for lesser performance, u r sexist”
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 11, 2019, 01:49:11 PM
So now the argument becomes, “everyone agrees the men are better, but pay the gals the same anyway, damn it!!! And if you disagree with equal pay for lesser performance, u r sexist”

No. That is what you want to pretend the argument to be.

The argument I made was:

1. The women generate more revenue for the US Soccer Federation.
2. The women's national team draws a larger audiences than men's national team.
3. The women are more marketable, well known, and recognizable.

In all regards, the women's team has justified equal or higher pay, yet simply because of their gender they are being paid less.

Who would beat who in a game is immaterial when the actual revenue generating games are separate and distinct entities.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 11, 2019, 02:01:53 PM
Why do the women get such a nice base pay compared to the guys? Surely they want to give that up?

If one truly wanted equality, one could fight for one team, all genders welcome. But there again, true equality would mean the women are SOL.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 11, 2019, 02:20:27 PM
Why do the women get such a nice base pay compared to the guys? Surely they want to give that up?

If I were them, I would.  They are the best team in the world and would kill it with a performance laden contract. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: skianth16 on July 11, 2019, 02:59:54 PM
No. That is what you want to pretend the argument to be.

The argument I made was:

1. The women generate more revenue for the US Soccer Federation.
2. The women's national team draws a larger audiences than men's national team.
3. The women are more marketable, well known, and recognizable.

In all regards, the women's team has justified equal or higher pay, yet simply because of their gender they are being paid less.

Who would beat who in a game is immaterial when the actual revenue generating games are separate and distinct entities.

I don't know why it's so convoluted, but I can't seem to find a simple answer on the revenue piece. From what I've seen, in the last 3 or 4 years, both teams have brought it basically the same revenue from games (+/- 1-2%). But what about World Cup revenue? Where does that come into play? How much have the men brought in vs. the women?

Also, don't forget that each team has their own CBA. For some of the unequal pay issues raised by the women, the men addressed them in a more recent CBA, driving some of the difference. Maybe there should only be one CBA/union? Maybe the women should get a better rep?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: LAZER on July 11, 2019, 03:25:51 PM
Again, no one is saying any individual is sexist, so it has nothing to do with why individual people are not supporting women's sports. We are saying that the system the status quo makes it much easier for male athletes to make money/fame/recognition/etc than female athletes.
I guess my point is the system and the economics are ultimately a result of people's preferences and where they want to spend money.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 11, 2019, 04:03:18 PM
I still think the men would win. And rather easily.

But if you're going to put up the best women's team, why not against the best men's team? Germany, brazil, etc.

Yeah it's fair, I'm probably trying to make the argument way too hard that the genders aren't as disparate physically as they really are.

At the same time, just because the men are "better" physically, doesn't mean that the entertainment product they provide is better. There is a lot to appreciate in the women's game that may not be as prevalent in the men's game and vice versa.....just because one team can beat the other doesn't mean the product produced by the winning team is better. Soccer is a great example, the bunker and boom team might win a game, does that mean it's the better and/or more entertaining team?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 11, 2019, 06:15:08 PM
Yeah it's fair, I'm probably trying to make the argument way too hard that the genders aren't as disparate physically as they really are.

At the same time, just because the men are "better" physically, doesn't mean that the entertainment product they provide is better. There is a lot to appreciate in the women's game that may not be as prevalent in the men's game and vice versa.....just because one team can beat the other doesn't mean the product produced by the winning team is better. Soccer is a great example, the bunker and boom team might win a game, does that mean it's the better and/or more entertaining team?

Not disagreeing with any of that
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 11, 2019, 10:01:25 PM
No. That is what you want to pretend the argument to be.

The argument I made was:

1. The women generate more revenue for the US Soccer Federation.
2. The women's national team draws a larger audiences than men's national team.
3. The women are more marketable, well known, and recognizable.

In all regards, the women's team has justified equal or higher pay, yet simply because of their gender they are being paid less.

Who would beat who in a game is immaterial when the actual revenue generating games are separate and distinct entities.

If only that was true, which most of it isn’t.

Furthermore, ever seen the average ticket price for the men vs the women....hmm.  That’s also part of the revenue number.

As far as attendance, EVERY year the last 10 years the men outdrew the women until this past cycle, despite worse performances and despite much higher ticket costs.

And as far as the world stage....the men’s final last year drew 1 billion for one game.  The women’s entire tournament MAY have 1 billion viewers.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 11, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
If only that was true, which most of it isn’t.

Furthermore, ever seen the average ticket price for the men vs the women....hmm.  That’s also part of the revenue number.

As far as attendance, EVERY year the last 10 years the men outdrew the women until this past cycle, despite worse performances and despite much higher ticket costs.

And as far as the world stage....the men’s final last year drew 1 billion for one game.  The women’s entire tournament MAY have 1 billion viewers.

Every bit of it was true.

1. Average ticket price doesn't matter. Total revenue does. The women have generated more revenue from ticket sales. One of their complaints is them not charging more for tickets. People will pay to see their product.

2. You talk attendance at games, and pick an arbitrary 10-year window. Since 2015, the women have larger attendances and revenue. I don't care about what happened in 2009. I care about recent results.

3. The world stage doesn't matter when we are talking US-media distribution rights. It also doesn't matter when we are talking licensing deals that are specific to the US-product. Nike has confirmed that the highest selling jersey and licensing products in the US are the women's jerseys and products. The US soccer federation isn't benefiting from the Men's world stage. Especially when the men's team can't make the cut for many of the tournaments.

So, everything you said was either false, or deliberately misrepresented.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 11, 2019, 10:33:53 PM
2. You talk attendance at games, and pick an arbitrary 10-year window. I don't care about what happened in 2009. I care about recent results.

So you would love pay for performance... er... revenue.. which we don't know what it is... or.. er.. something... but, you definitely only care about recent results..

You must hate the big base pay the ladies get as compared to the fellas... why are they promised these funds?? Seems wrong (to you).
----
The thing is... these are two different sports. Stop comparing them. One is men's soccer. One is women's soccer. Very different. That fact can seen by an overwhelming consensus that men's teams would whip the crap out of women's teams.

So, if we're going to say women's soccer should be paid as much as men's soccer... should we not say water delivery guys (no offense, ZFB) should be paid the same as dentists? And... people should be able to marry animals?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 11, 2019, 10:52:21 PM
So you would love pay for performance... er... revenue.. which we don't know what it is... or.. er.. something... but, you definitely only care about recent results..

You must hate the big base pay the ladies get as compared to the fellas... why are they promised these funds?? Seems wrong (to you).
----
The thing is... these are two different sports. Stop comparing them. One is men's soccer. One is women's soccer. Very different. That fact can seen by an overwhelming consensus that men's teams would whip the crap out of women's teams.

So, if we're going to say women's soccer should be paid as much as men's soccer... should we not say water delivery guys (no offense, ZFB) should be paid the same as dentists? And... people should be able to marry animals?

90% of what you wrote is incomprehensible.

The other 10% is either completely reinventing what I said, or completely misunderstanding reality.

I didn't discuss who would beat who men vs. women. I simply indicated, to you and others claiming that it should be based off revenue (or what the market allows), that in such a case the women should make at least as much as the men, since they bring in equal or more revenue.

Other randomness you want to bring in, e.g. base pay, indicates you misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent reality. The men get base pay too, it is just a per game base pay. The women lump that across 20 games. So if the men and women both play 20 games, they earn $100k base salary. The women as base pay lump sum, the men as base pay of $5k per game.

The differences in pay between the men and women come as a result of bonuses for winning. The men get larger bonuses for winning games compared to the women. The men also get to fly chartered flights, play on better/safer practice facilities and numerous other unequal benefits that do not reflect the actual revenue contributions.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 11, 2019, 11:16:13 PM
So, can my buddy marry his dog or what?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 11, 2019, 11:51:31 PM
Every bit of it was true.

1. Average ticket price doesn't matter. Total revenue does. The women have generated more revenue from ticket sales. One of their complaints is them not charging more for tickets. People will pay to see their product.

2. You talk attendance at games, and pick an arbitrary 10-year window. Since 2015, the women have larger attendances and revenue. I don't care about what happened in 2009. I care about recent results.

3. The world stage doesn't matter when we are talking US-media distribution rights. It also doesn't matter when we are talking licensing deals that are specific to the US-product. Nike has confirmed that the highest selling jersey and licensing products in the US are the women's jerseys and products. The US soccer federation isn't benefiting from the Men's world stage. Especially when the men's team can't make the cut for many of the tournaments.

So, everything you said was either false, or deliberately misrepresented.

False, every bit of what you wrote was not true and further nonsense that certain people cannot get their head around the facts.

Ticket prices don't matter? My God....does money grow on trees in your world?  Of course ticket prices matter.

Attendance has been higher....oh really.  Here are the 2018 numbers in which USWMNT dropped 22%....one game over 25K....despite cheap ticket prices.  Avg attendance was 14K.   https://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/12/13/uswnt-average-attendance-declines-22-percent-in-2018/

1/21/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Denmark – SDCCU Stadium – 17,526
3/1/18 – She Believes Cup – USA vs. Germany – Mapfre Stadium – 14,591
3/4/18 – She Believes Cup – USA vs. France – Red Bull Arena – 25,706
3/7/18 – She Believes Cup – USA vs. England – Orlando City Stadium – 12,351
4/5/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Mexico – TIAA Bank Field – 14,360
4/8/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Mexico – BBVA Compass Stadium – 15,349
6/7/18 – Friendly – USA vs. China – Rio Tinto Stadium – 13,230
6/12/18 – Friendly – USA vs. China – First Energy Stadium – 12,335
7/26/18 – Tournament of Nations – USA vs. Japan – Children’s Mercy Park – 18,467
7/29/18 – Tournament of Nations – USA vs. Australia – Pratt & Whitney Stadium – 21,570
8/2/18 – Tournament of Nations – USA vs. Brazil – Toyota Park – 18,309
8/31/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Chile – StubHub Center – 23,544
9/4/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Chile – Avaya Stadium – 14,340
10/4/18 – Women’s World Cup qualifier – USA vs. Mexico – WakeMed Soccer Park – 5,404
10/7/18 – WWCQ – USA vs. Panama – WakeMed Soccer Park – 7,532
10/10/18 – WWCQ – USA vs. Trinidad & Tobago – WakeMed Soccer Park – 3,996
10/14/18 – WWCQ – USA vs. Jamaica – Toyota Stadium – 7,555
10/17/18 – WWCQ – USA vs. Canada – Toyota Stadium – 6,986

14K for the best team in the world.  The men, who basically sucked in 2018, averaged 24K DESPITE all of the games being friendlies and NONE of them being World Cup Qualifiers.  Three of the games had over 32K....reminder....the women had zero over 26K.

If you want to look at the WC Qualifiers of 2017, the men's attendance crushed the women despite higher ticket prices and the team not performing well.

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/12/12/usmnt-average-attendance-2018-worst-since-2006/

So tell me again how EVERYTHING I said was false.  LOL.  Tell me again how ticket prices don't mean anything...when they are one of the levers that drive attendance.  And finally, the world stage matters entirely when a large chunk of the money people are bitching about is coming from that pot.

In summary, women's attendance historically and even recently has NOT been better than the men despite being the best team in the world, despite lower ticket prices.   Ratings, historically have been much worse and the comparison of a World Cup year for one team vs the same year when the men don't even have a World Cup tournament is ridiculous.  Finally, take a look at MLS attendance vs the women's professional leagues, let me know how that compares as well. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 12, 2019, 12:10:12 AM
I guess my point is the system and the economics are ultimately a result of people's preferences and where they want to spend money.

And where do people's preferences come from?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 12, 2019, 02:13:07 AM
And where do people's preferences come from?

Their believing eyeballs.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2019, 08:33:24 AM
False, every bit of what you wrote was not true and further nonsense that certain people cannot get their head around the facts.

Ticket prices don't matter? My God....does money grow on trees in your world?  Of course ticket prices matter.


No, money is the important factor.

Women's ticket revenue since 2015: $50.8M
Men's ticket revenue since 2015: $49.9M

Women bring in more money...FACT!

Women's jerseys selling at record amounts compared to men and women.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/nike-sells-record-number-of-usa-soccer-jerseys-due-to-womens-world-cup-2019-6-1028317598

FACT!

Women's World Cup viewership for in US, higher then Men's.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/10/us-viewership-of-the-womens-world-cup-final-was-higher-than-the-mens.html

FACT!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 12, 2019, 09:56:58 AM
Their believing eyeballs.

Woeful understanding of human psychology.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 12, 2019, 10:17:32 AM
No, money is the important factor.

Women's ticket revenue since 2015: $50.8M
Men's ticket revenue since 2015: $49.9M

Women bring in more money...FACT!

Honest question because I think much of the reporting on this issue is confusing:  isn't World Cup money from FIFA part of the revenue stream received by USA Soccer?  If it is -- and that's my understanding -- you're disregarding a huge amount of the revenue at issue.  But it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding the USA Soccer revenue streams.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MUBBau on July 12, 2019, 10:19:55 AM

Women's World Cup viewership for in US, higher then Men's.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/10/us-viewership-of-the-womens-world-cup-final-was-higher-than-the-mens.html

FACT!

How does this relate to USWNT v USMNT? It's comparing France and Croatia to the USWNT.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 12, 2019, 10:36:20 AM
Honest question because I think much of the reporting on this issue is confusing:  isn't World Cup money from FIFA part of the revenue stream received by USA Soccer?  If it is -- and that's my understanding -- you're disregarding a huge amount of the revenue at issue.  But it's quite possible that I'm misunderstanding the USA Soccer revenue streams.

I don't think they receive any money from FIFA if I read their audited financials correctly.

https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/financial-information

But again, this shouldn't just be about revenue generation.  It should have to do with the importance of paying genders more equally for doing similar jobs. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: skianth16 on July 12, 2019, 10:40:21 AM

Women's World Cup viewership for in US, higher then Men's.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/10/us-viewership-of-the-womens-world-cup-final-was-higher-than-the-mens.html

FACT!

Eh, this is apples and oranges. Of course more Americans watched the championship game that an American team was playing in. If you compare this year's championship viewers to the last World Cup the American men played in, the men draw significantly more viewers.

The women's championship game had 14 million viewers last week, and the last men's game in 2014 had nearly 25 million.

I bet viewership of this year's women's final was a lot lower in Croatia than last year's men's final. Think that's driven by sexism?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/world-cup-2014-record-u-s-tv-ratings-sure-sign-of-soccers-rapid-growth-here/
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 12, 2019, 11:41:10 AM
It should have to do with the importance of paying genders more equally for doing similar jobs.

Should we pay all truck drivers the same? No

Men soccer players are much better at soccer than women. To ignore that is bizarre.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 12, 2019, 12:16:47 PM
Should we pay all truck drivers the same? No

Men soccer players are much better at soccer than women. To ignore that is bizarre.


The women are better than the men are in their respective competitions.  To ignore that is bizarre.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 12, 2019, 12:27:45 PM
Their believing eyeballs.

I don't know what you mean by believing eyeballs, but this brings up a good point. I prefer watching men's sports to women's sports. I think a big part of the reason for that is because growing up I was inundated with men's sports and didn't even know women's sports existed at the professional level until junior high. By that time, my preferences were already decided.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2019, 12:38:43 PM
Eh, this is apples and oranges. Of course more Americans watched the championship game that an American team was playing in. If you compare this year's championship viewers to the last World Cup the American men played in, the men draw significantly more viewers.

The women's championship game had 14 million viewers last week, and the last men's game in 2014 had nearly 25 million.

I bet viewership of this year's women's final was a lot lower in Croatia than last year's men's final. Think that's driven by sexism?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/world-cup-2014-record-u-s-tv-ratings-sure-sign-of-soccers-rapid-growth-here/

There was an argument that the revenue numbers didn't take into consideration domestic TV-deal revenue. The point is, that the women draw larger TV audiences, so they would contribute more to that revenue picture.

The men's team didn't even make the 2018 World Cup, so their value there was zero. It is reasonable to assume that the men may not make the World Cup in any given cycle, whereas the women have a high probability of winning. Thus their value in terms of TV market is higher.

Regarding the 2014 comparison. This years Women's World Cup final was at 10 AM on a Sunday. The 2015 Women's final is the highest audience ever in the US (men's or women's) in terms of audience.

So the fact is, that the women bring more to the table in terms of US soccer federation revenue from domestic TV deals.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 12, 2019, 12:48:29 PM
I don't know what you mean by believing eyeballs, but this brings up a good point. I prefer watching men's sports to women's sports. I think a big part of the reason for that is because growing up I was inundated with men's sports and didn't even know women's sports existed at the professional level until junior high. By that time, my preferences were already decided.

TAMU, as I've said before, I have a lot of respect for you and enjoy our discussions of these issues.  I tend to learn a lot from you, and I appreciate that.  Two thoughts:

1)  It's also possible that you simply enjoy watching men more.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Some sports, I like watching men more.  Other sports, I like watching women more.  I will not deny that there is institutional sexism out there, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the reason for your preferences.

2)  At times, this conversation has gotten side-tracked because of different interpretations of the word "sexism."  I vaguely recall you and I having a similar discussion of the term "racism."  Some hear it and interpret it as implying malice.  Others use it very technically and don't intend to imply malice.  I think that a big part of the problem with those two words is that they have become weaponized and are so frequently used to imply malice that many people (myself included) become defensive when they hear those words applied to situations they are discussing.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: 4everwarriors on July 12, 2019, 12:51:42 PM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 12, 2019, 12:57:11 PM
I don't know what you mean by believing eyeballs, but this brings up a good point. I prefer watching men's sports to women's sports. I think a big part of the reason for that is because growing up I was inundated with men's sports and didn't even know women's sports existed at the professional level until junior high. By that time, my preferences were already decided.

 isn't it possible that there's at least a tiny element of you prefer watching men's sports to imagine yourself in there? You can identify with them. You can't really do that with women's sports. I'm sure everyone here used to play hoops in the alley (or drive way) and imagine they were hitting a game winning shot. Or in a shoot out in soccer/hockey before coming in and watching the game with their dad or brother or friends. When you're dreaming that stuff you aren't hitting the shot in the women's league. And as people grow up I think there's still a bit of that element in watching sports.

I could be wrong and someone's gonna tell me they had no imagination or inclination to play sports and just chose to watch men's on a whim.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 12, 2019, 01:02:29 PM
There was an argument that the revenue numbers didn't take into consideration domestic TV-deal revenue. The point is, that the women draw larger TV audiences, so they would contribute more to that revenue picture.

The men's team didn't even make the 2018 World Cup, so their value there was zero. It is reasonable to assume that the men may not make the World Cup in any given cycle, whereas the women have a high probability of winning. Thus their value in terms of TV market is higher.

Regarding the 2014 comparison. This years Women's World Cup final was at 10 AM on a Sunday. The 2015 Women's final is the highest audience ever in the US (men's or women's) in terms of audience.

So the fact is, that the women bring more to the table in terms of US soccer federation revenue from domestic TV deals.

Not qualifying for 2018 was an extreme fluke, and after 2022 when the tournament expands, the odds of the men not qualifying will be the same as the odds that the women don't qualify.

Once again I don't think that there is one right answer to the pay question, because while the 2015 and 1999 Finals are the two most watched games in American history, it's undeniable that the overall spike in popularity in the sport stems from the men hosting in 1994. 

Not a perfect analogy, but the best I can think of; where would the X-games and extreme sports in general be without Tony Hawk?  They're still pretty far down as it stands, but you can argue that they would be virtually dead without him.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 12, 2019, 01:07:44 PM
Not qualifying for 2018 was an extreme fluke, and after 2022 when the tournament expands, the odds of the men not qualifying will be the same as the odds that the women don't qualify.

Once again I don't think that there is one right answer to the pay question, because while the 2015 and 1999 Finals are the two most watched games in American history, it's undeniable that the overall spike in popularity in the sport stems from the men hosting in 1994. 

Not a perfect analogy, but the best I can think of; where would the X-games and extreme sports in general be without Tony Hawk?  They're still pretty far down as it stands, but you can argue that they would be virtually dead without him.

Or hockey without mighty ducks
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2019, 01:17:01 PM

Once again I don't think that there is one right answer to the pay question, because while the 2015 and 1999 Finals are the two most watched games in American history, it's undeniable that the overall spike in popularity in the sport stems from the men hosting in 1994. 


Partially true. Undoubtedly hosting in 1994 kickstarted everything, and without it, maybe the Women in 1999 doesn't draw as many eyes. But after the 1999 Women's win, they apparently intentionally would schedule men's games before the women's games in order to get audiences to watch the men, as the Women were a major draw.

The above is part of the lawsuit, where despite using the women to prop up the men, the women were getting crappier benefits.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 12, 2019, 01:21:06 PM
Partially true. Undoubtedly hosting in 1994 kickstarted everything, and without it, maybe the Women in 1999 doesn't draw as many eyes. But after the 1999 Women's win, they intentionally would schedule men's games before the women's games in order to get audiences to watch the men, as the Women were a major draw.

The above is part of the lawsuit, where despite using the women to prop up the men, the women were getting crappier benefits.

I'm neither a lawyer or very familiar with the lawsuit, but if this is true, why aren't the former players suing rather than the current?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu_hilltopper on July 12, 2019, 01:22:25 PM
I found this to be a good read:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/jul/11/does-us-womens-soccer-team-bring-more-revenue-get-/ (https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/jul/11/does-us-womens-soccer-team-bring-more-revenue-get-/)

..the women’s team said that if each team were to win 20 exhibition games in a year, "female WNT players would earn a maximum of $99,000 or $4,905 per game, while similarly situated male MNT players would earn an average of $263,320 or $13,166 per game."

.."If both teams lost all 20 games, the players would make the same amount," the Fact Checker calculated. "That’s because the men earn a $5,000 bonus when they lose and the women have a $100,000 base salary."

..under the new agreement, women’s team members are paid a guaranteed salary and then collect bonuses on top of that, while the men’s team players are paid only a bonus, the Associated Press reported. So the women have the security of a guaranteed floor.

..from 2016-18, the women’s team brought in $50.8 million in revenue, while the men’s team brought in $49.9 million. That’s a difference of less than 2% in the women’s favor.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2019, 01:24:04 PM
I'm neither a lawyer or very familiar with the lawsuit, but if this is true, why aren't the former players suing rather than the current?

No idea, also not an attorney and just re-report what I read in the lawsuits. My guess would be that the former players wouldn't have standing anymore, but current players can use it as a pattern of behavior.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on July 12, 2019, 01:33:18 PM
90% of what you wrote is incomprehensible.

The other 10% is either completely reinventing what I said, or completely misunderstanding reality.

I didn't discuss who would beat who men vs. women. I simply indicated, to you and others claiming that it should be based off revenue (or what the market allows), that in such a case the women should make at least as much as the men, since they bring in equal or more revenue.

Other randomness you want to bring in, e.g. base pay, indicates you misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent reality. The men get base pay too, it is just a per game base pay. The women lump that across 20 games. So if the men and women both play 20 games, they earn $100k base salary. The women as base pay lump sum, the men as base pay of $5k per game.

The differences in pay between the men and women come as a result of bonuses for winning. The men get larger bonuses for winning games compared to the women. The men also get to fly chartered flights, play on better/safer practice facilities and numerous other unequal benefits that do not reflect the actual revenue contributions.


Men get paid on TOTAL revenue which is billions while the total for women's soccer is $780MM. The disparity in pay is that the men's pile is bigger and their % of the pie is actually lower than the percentage the women receive from their revenue.
My wife and I are big women's soccer fans and have been to World Cup games and many friendlies but the skill level and pace of play cannot match the men. We watched the final and then switched over to U.S. vs. Mexico and it was a far more entertaining game: faster paced with more accurate passing and far more exciting opportunities. We were also disappointed in the lack of professionalism they displayed during and after the tournament.. Not a good representation of our country.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 12, 2019, 01:35:39 PM
No idea, also not an attorney and just re-report what I read in the lawsuits. My guess would be that the former players wouldn't have standing anymore, but current players can use it as a pattern of behavior.

I'm not sure how well that would hold up, as there have certainly been multiple new CBA's since the women "propped up the men".

I do think that the women haven't been treated fairly, but more in terms of being force to play on turf, non chartered flights etc.  Where I am less convinced is when the argument turns to "look at all these trophies that we've won compared to the men", because as ha been pointed out, the level  of competition across the genders varies wildly.  The men also have advantages built in that neither they, nor the USSF, can control. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 12, 2019, 01:36:39 PM
We were also disappointed in the lack of professionalism they displayed during and after the tournament.. Not a good representation of our country.

Which is an opinion that many don't share and has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 12, 2019, 01:50:21 PM
..from 2016-18, the women’s team brought in $50.8 million in revenue, while the men’s team brought in $49.9 million. That’s a difference of less than 2% in the women’s favor.

While I'm sure that these stats are correct, I do not think that they provide the entire picture.  This is, without a doubt, the golden age in Women's soccer in the US, it also happens to be happening at the same time as the biggest dip in men's soccer since the 80s.  The men (better) recover, and the women may take a slight dip, just because it's so hard to stay on top and the rest of the world is catching up.  the further that this data goes back i would guess that the percentages skew more and more in the men's favor. 

It's like the folks over in Cincinnati, or Houston that think the AAC is better than the BEast because it sent the same number of teams to the tournament and had more success.  Technically true, but almost all neutrals (or even now former members of their own conference) would still say that the Beast is better.  The Women made more over the last two years, but in the last 5, or 10, or 20 the men probably made much more.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 12, 2019, 01:57:23 PM
TAMU, as I've said before, I have a lot of respect for you and enjoy our discussions of these issues.  I tend to learn a lot from you, and I appreciate that.

I appreciate and respect you as well Still, thanks.

1)  It's also possible that you simply enjoy watching men more.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Some sports, I like watching men more.  Other sports, I like watching women more.  I will not deny that there is institutional sexism out there, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the reason for your preferences.

I never said it was THE reason but it certainly is a reason. I honestly think that's inarguable.

2)  At times, this conversation has gotten side-tracked because of different interpretations of the word "sexism."  I vaguely recall you and I having a similar discussion of the term "racism."  Some hear it and interpret it as implying malice.  Others use it very technically and don't intend to imply malice.  I think that a big part of the problem with those two words is that they have become weaponized and are so frequently used to imply malice that many people (myself included) become defensive when they hear those words applied to situations they are discussing.

I don't disagree with your analysis. But I'm not sure what can be changed. I understand this reality and that's why I am willing to be patient and reexplain what institutionalized sexism means (and what it doesn't mean) over and over again in the same thread. You say these words have been weaponized and in many ways you are correct. But I would also argue that many have tried to render these words meaningless as well by trying to narrow the definition to something that's either impossible to prove (i.e. racism requires intent and you can't know what's on a person's heart) or only exists on the very fringes of modern society (i.e. KKK is racist...anything less than that isn't racist). I think the only way to combat both issues (weaponizing and trying to make them meaningless) is by using the words correctly and appropriately challenging when others use them incorrectly.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on July 12, 2019, 02:12:34 PM
isn't it possible that there's at least a tiny element of you prefer watching men's sports to imagine yourself in there? You can identify with them. You can't really do that with women's sports. I'm sure everyone here used to play hoops in the alley (or drive way) and imagine they were hitting a game winning shot. Or in a shoot out in soccer/hockey before coming in and watching the game with their dad or brother or friends. When you're dreaming that stuff you aren't hitting the shot in the women's league. And as people grow up I think there's still a bit of that element in watching sports.

I could be wrong and someone's gonna tell me they had no imagination or inclination to play sports and just chose to watch men's on a whim.

Yes absolutely. I pictured myself hitting walkoff homeruns for the Brewers and hitting buzzer beaters for the Bucks  all the time as a kid....but my sister imagined the same things, even though she "couldn't identify with them." Like I said to Still, I'm not saying it was THE reason, but it certainly was a reason, and I suspect one of the bigger ones, why I am as big of a men's sports fan as I am.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2019, 02:26:05 PM

Men get paid on TOTAL revenue which is billions while the total for women's soccer is $780MM. The disparity in pay is that the men's pile is bigger and their % of the pie is actually lower than the percentage the women receive from their revenue.


Not sure why you are using these numbers. They reference revenue on the World Cup side, not the US Soccer Federation side. The latter is where the men's and women's salaries/benefits are coming from that are of interest to the lawsuit.

For that matter, the men didn't even make the last World Cup so those numbers are even more meaningless.

I do find it odd thought that so many people seem to want to go out of their way to attack amazing role models, and to go out of their way to justify them being paid less, and supported comparatively poorly.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 12, 2019, 02:41:21 PM
Yes absolutely. I pictured myself hitting walkoff homeruns for the Brewers and hitting buzzer beaters for the Bucks  all the time as a kid....but my sister imagined the same things, even though she "couldn't identify with them." Like I said to Still, I'm not saying it was THE reason, but it certainly was a reason, and I suspect one of the bigger ones, why I am as big of a men's sports fan as I am.

I'm gonna have Lori confirm that with your sister and get back to you on my position.

She said she dreamed of hitting the shot for MUBB so you win. Also said you were a cowboys fan?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 12, 2019, 03:11:49 PM
This seems like a weird discussion.

Market forces are at play here, as they are in any similar situation.

Yes, the women are better with regards to their competition than the men.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 12, 2019, 03:24:59 PM

We were also disappointed in the lack of professionalism they displayed during and after the tournament.. Not a good representation of our country.



They were extremely professional and have been great, great representatives for our country.

Seems like maybe you think women need to be controlled and told how to act.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:50:19 AM
No, money is the important factor.

Women's ticket revenue since 2015: $50.8M
Men's ticket revenue since 2015: $49.9M

Women bring in more money...FACT!

Women's jerseys selling at record amounts compared to men and women.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/nike-sells-record-number-of-usa-soccer-jerseys-due-to-womens-world-cup-2019-6-1028317598

FACT!

Women's World Cup viewership for in US, higher then Men's.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/10/us-viewership-of-the-womens-world-cup-final-was-higher-than-the-mens.html

FACT!


Interesting, I almost thought you were going to apologize for your nonsense about attendence....but you didn’t, despite saying I what I wrote was false...when it wasn’t.  Fact.

Women had many more games and barely the same revenue .....fact.  Per ticket prices much lower for the women...fact....if the product is the same or better, why aren’t they charging more....weird....fact.

Wait, you mean the women’s jerseys sold more than the men despite being sold more cheaply....you don’t say....interesting that the numbers are only from Nike and Fanatics direct sites, when the men’s jerseys were sold by many more official vendors,...weird.

What else you got?


Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:51:06 AM
Woeful understanding of human psychology.

Oh really, Sigmund.  Please explain.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:52:01 AM
I don't think they receive any money from FIFA if I read their audited financials correctly.

https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/financial-information

But again, this shouldn't just be about revenue generation.  It should have to do with the importance of paying genders more equally for doing similar jobs.

“Similar jobs”

Interesting
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:53:53 AM

The women are better than the men are in their respective competitions.  To ignore that is bizarre.

Which means absolutely nothing.

Using this asinine argument, the WNBA champion is much better that the 5th place NBA team....so they should be paid more?


unnatural carnal knowledgeing bizarre
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:55:58 AM
There was an argument that the revenue numbers didn't take into consideration domestic TV-deal revenue. The point is, that the women draw larger TV audiences, so they would contribute more to that revenue picture.

The men's team didn't even make the 2018 World Cup, so their value there was zero. It is reasonable to assume that the men may not make the World Cup in any given cycle, whereas the women have a high probability of winning. Thus their value in terms of TV market is higher.

Regarding the 2014 comparison. This years Women's World Cup final was at 10 AM on a Sunday. The 2015 Women's final is the highest audience ever in the US (men's or women's) in terms of audience.

So the fact is, that the women bring more to the table in terms of US soccer federation revenue from domestic TV deals.

Omg, laughable.  You do realize there are qualifying games for World Cup on tv for both men an$ women.  Compare apples to apples.....man the moving of goal posts 8n this fraud exercise nationally has been epic.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 13, 2019, 07:11:29 AM
Interesting to see those who once proclaimed this should all be about revenue and economics have completely abandoned that (cause it favors the women) and have retreated to "yeah, but menz are better!" as justification.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 13, 2019, 07:34:21 AM
unnatural carnal knowledgeing bizarre


What's bizarre is you making five posts in a row, none of which actually refute the points being made, simply because you don't think the women should be paid the same.

Your objective claims have been repeatedly refuted.  You have decided to shift goalposts and build strawmen in response.  You simply don't want to say that you may have been wrong.

Oh well.  It's been interesting.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 13, 2019, 08:51:51 AM
While simultaneously downplaying the accomplishment and attempting to drain all enjoyment from it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Golden Avalanche on July 13, 2019, 10:55:06 AM


They were extremely professional and have been great, great representatives for our country.

Seems like maybe you think women need to be controlled and told how to act.

The team was criticized for pouring it on against Thailand which is ironic because they took their job of scoring goals and winning games seriously. Dare I write, showing such seriousness in the workplace would be the ultimate sign of professionalism.

America loves brash athletes. But once the guy made it political about the women's soccer team there are certain men of a certain vintage with a certain tint who take that brash attitude and now refer to it as bratty, childish, and/or unprofessional. The ruse is transparent. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:19:27 PM
Interesting to see those who once proclaimed this should all be about revenue and economics have completely abandoned that (cause it favors the women) and have retreated to "yeah, but menz are better!" as justification.

Who is saying that.  It is about economics, and the men are better.   


If the men were to play the women, the through balls would kill the ladies.  The men are faster and would decimate the defense.  The men are also taller, in some cases much taller....corner kicks and other set plays would be a huge advantage for the men to score. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:49:54 PM

What's bizarre is you making five posts in a row, none of which actually refute the points being made, simply because you don't think the women should be paid the same.

Your objective claims have been repeatedly refuted.  You have decided to shift goalposts and build strawmen in response.  You simply don't want to say that you may have been wrong.

Oh well.  It's been interesting.

What objective claims were refuted?  Forgetful said women's team had better attendance....simply untrue and I actually provided the data to show that was the case.  I wasn't wrong, so why should I state it.  The amount of shifting and half truths here have been interesting.  You guys don't like that tickets are cheaper for the ladies, yet STILL get outdrawn.....if you want to get paid the same, shouldn't you charge the same amount for the tickets...interesting.

I'd like to see where it is the women have outdrawn the men here in the US, since that is the standard being used by you guys for ratings.  The data I'm seeing doesn't indicate and it goes back to 2013.  Can someone provide some facts to this?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 13, 2019, 12:54:21 PM
The team was criticized for pouring it on against Thailand which is ironic because they took their job of scoring goals and winning games seriously. Dare I write, showing such seriousness in the workplace would be the ultimate sign of professionalism.

America loves brash athletes. But once the guy made it political about the women's soccer team there are certain men of a certain vintage with a certain tint who take that brash attitude and now refer to it as bratty, childish, and/or unprofessional. The ruse is transparent.

Wrong.  People on twitter and other social media platforms were attacking the team for that display DURING that game, long before any one guy said a thing....long before.  You're normally very good with the facts, but you missed badly on this one.  No doubt that once the one guy said something (he could say cancer is a bad thing and people would complain) many people went into their camps, but let's not pretend for a moment that it started with him...it started during the game.  and after the game.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 13, 2019, 02:00:05 PM
What objective claims were refuted?  Forgetful said women's team had better attendance....simply untrue and I actually provided the data to show that was the case.  I wasn't wrong, so why should I state it.  The amount of shifting and half truths here have been interesting.  You guys don't like that tickets are cheaper for the ladies, yet STILL get outdrawn.....if you want to get paid the same, shouldn't you charge the same amount for the tickets...interesting.

I'd like to see where it is the women have outdrawn the men here in the US, since that is the standard being used by you guys for ratings.  The data I'm seeing doesn't indicate and it goes back to 2013.  Can someone provide some facts to this?

Pure BS. I said the women generate more revenue. I provided links proving it. You decided that "attendance" mattered more, I flat out said, I don't care about attendance, its about economics...e.g. revenue.

You shifted the goals posts like normal, and then accused others of being the one shifting them.

I did discuss audience in the US, in reference to potential US-based TV revenue, you shifted that to "attendance" at games, and in the process completely disregarded what actually matters, revenue.

You've provided zero evidence that the men generate more revenue since 2015 than the women...ZERO. Instead you post about attendance, and "the men are better," to justify the pay difference, which means you are ignoring the actual economic data.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 13, 2019, 04:01:03 PM
Who is saying that.  It is about economics, and the men are better.   


If the men were to play the women, the through balls would kill the ladies.  The men are faster and would decimate the defense.  The men are also taller, in some cases much taller....corner kicks and other set plays would be a huge advantage for the men to score.

Who cares?. It's irrelevant because a) men and women don't compete against one another at this level and b) it has no bearing on the  revenue the respective teams generate. It has no bearing on the pay discussion.
The fact is the women generate more revenue for the USSF while being compensated less by the USSF. That's inherently unfair.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 14, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
Pure BS. I said the women generate more revenue. I provided links proving it. You decided that "attendance" mattered more, I flat out said, I don't care about attendance, its about economics...e.g. revenue.

You shifted the goals posts like normal, and then accused others of being the one shifting them.

I did discuss audience in the US, in reference to potential US-based TV revenue, you shifted that to "attendance" at games, and in the process completely disregarded what actually matters, revenue.

You've provided zero evidence that the men generate more revenue since 2015 than the women...ZERO. Instead you post about attendance, and "the men are better," to justify the pay difference, which means you are ignoring the actual economic data.

Oh, I'm sorry....I must have you confused with the other guy here with the same Username of FORGETFUL who said this.


Well, the women draw bigger audiences, both on television and at the gate. So they are much more desirable for advertisers. Unless advertisers suddenly prefer to pay more for smaller audiences, it is pretty simple to see what generates more revenue for US media rights.


Gate still means attendance....right?  You said they draw bigger audiences at the GATE.  I called BS, because you are wrong....then you claim I am moving the goalposts.....yeah...uhm, who is moving the goalposts?  LOL.  Those are your words above...yes?  That is your post...yes?

In fact, the women have NOT outdrawn the men at the gate.  And yes, the TV rights and sponsorships ARE bundled, even though you think that is some kind of sinister plot to not give them credit. And finally, on an apples to apples comparison you are wrong on the ratings, as well.....but keep on hard charging.

One final question for you, if the women are paid the same moving forward and suddenly the interest wanes, or the interest for the men pick up, should both be paid the same no matter what?  Your argument, as flawed as it is, is that they are doing the same or better (proven wrong) so in the future if they aren't, they should get a pay cut...right?  I'd say the same thing for the men, by the way.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 14, 2019, 09:58:34 AM
Who cares?. It's irrelevant because a) men and women don't compete against one another at this level and b) it has no bearing on the  revenue the respective teams generate. It has no bearing on the pay discussion.
The fact is the women generate more revenue for the USSF while being compensated less by the USSF. That's inherently unfair.

Except they don't.  The sponsorship money is bundled in, as someone that sold sponsorships for both college and professional teams for years, bought it for years for companies....attendance is part of the value proposition, as are tv ratings.  There is ZERO way of discerning how much revenue was provided by either entity because the sponsor had to buy both properties.  FACT.

There is nothing inherently unfair about it when the emotional nonsense is eliminated.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 14, 2019, 10:51:26 AM
Except they don't. 

Prove it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 14, 2019, 11:17:22 AM
Maybe “somebody” would go away if you guys would QUIT arguing with him.

Some of you don’t understand that is ALL he wants to do. Even if you agree with him, he will still argue.

He is simply a troll who makes this site unreadable at times.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: muwarrior69 on July 14, 2019, 01:30:57 PM
Secret donating 500K to women team.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/secret-deodorant-donates-529g-us-womens-soccer-team-gender-pay-gap
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 14, 2019, 01:45:08 PM
Maybe “somebody” would go away if you guys would QUIT arguing with him.

Some of you don’t understand that is ALL he wants to do. Even if you agree with him, he will still argue.

He is simply a troll who makes this site unreadable at times.

Sorry that you see arguing as correcting the record.   We are a major sponsor of USMNT, USWMNT and the Mexican National team.  I happen to know a bit more about how the sausage is made.

Some of you want to believe everything the media says about this stuff which is bizarre.  The media is wrong so many times it is sad to watch.  I’ve been reading for the last 3 months how NFL Sunday Ticket might be going to ESPN +, cuz the media said so....including highly regarded sports media as recently as last week.  Of course I knew they were wrong for months because we worked through the deal, but it took Goodell to quash that fake news a few days ago.....i’m Guessing the fake news will continue regardless.

In my next lifetime I hope I can be in the media and be as wrong as they are and still be paid, must be some accountability.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 14, 2019, 01:50:43 PM
Prove it.

Admit you are wrong on the attendance part that you said was 100% truthful....one step at a time. 

What you are asking to be proven cannot be...that is the point....some media members have even tried to be upfront and stated it isn’t cut and dry and very complicated because of how things are sold, measured, etc.  I give them credit for trying at least.  Some of the others have been so agenda driven it is laughable...facts be damned.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 14, 2019, 04:12:50 PM
Admit you are wrong on the attendance part that you said was 100% truthful....one step at a time. 

What you are asking to be proven cannot be...that is the point....some media members have even tried to be upfront and stated it isn’t cut and dry and very complicated because of how things are sold, measured, etc.  I give them credit for trying at least.  Some of the others have been so agenda driven it is laughable...facts be damned.

My 1 statement regarding attendance was based on these numbers: Women total attendance in 2018: 253,151; Men total attendance in 2018: 169,141.

The attendance statement was in relation to the fact that the women generate more ticket revenue then men.

All are facts. I didn't care about per game attendance, because it isn't germane to total revenue.

You have provided zero evidence in support of your stance; you make a claim that is contrary to actual data/evidence and just say everyone else is wrong, because you know better. Then claim others have an agenda. Do you realize how absurd you are?

I'm done with this discussion.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 14, 2019, 09:20:43 PM
My 1 statement regarding attendance was based on these numbers: Women total attendance in 2018: 253,151; Men total attendance in 2018: 169,141.

The attendance statement was in relation to the fact that the women generate more ticket revenue then men.

All are facts. I didn't care about per game attendance, because it isn't germane to total revenue.

You have provided zero evidence in support of your stance; you make a claim that is contrary to actual data/evidence and just say everyone else is wrong, because you know better. Then claim others have an agenda. Do you realize how absurd you are?

I'm done with this discussion.

Lol.  OMG.  So if the women played 100 matches and 1000 people came out to each one and paid $20 per, but the men had 10 matches at 20000 per and people paid $100 per....that doesn’t matter.  You would view that as better performance?  This is awesome. 

Sorry ace, it matters.  What you charge, how many per game, etc.  I provided the links.  Tomorrow when I get to office I’ll dig up what USSF sends to sponsors on attendance.  US men are down something like 11%, the women’s attendance was down 23% if I recall, but will double check.  The men have outdrawn the women....keep moving those goalposts.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on July 15, 2019, 05:01:15 PM


They were extremely professional and have been great, great representatives for our country.

Seems like maybe you think women need to be controlled and told how to act.

  If drunken, profanity laced outbursts are ok with you in your house, fine .  But don't dump your biases on me. We don't know each other and I would never presume to judge. I want better role models for my daughters. Up to now I was proud of them. My wife and I were disappointed by their actions. Nuff said
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 15, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
  If drunken, profanity laced outbursts are ok with you in your house, fine .  But don't dump your biases on me. We don't know each other and I would never presume to judge. I want better role models for my daughters. Up to now I was proud of them. My wife and I were disappointed by their actions. Nuff said

Were you equally disappointed by every celebration by a men's team ever?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Golden Avalanche on July 15, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
  If drunken, profanity laced outbursts are ok with you in your house, fine .  But don't dump your biases on me. We don't know each other and I would never presume to judge. I want better role models for my daughters. Up to now I was proud of them. My wife and I were disappointed by their actions. Nuff said

We don't know each other and I would never presume to judge, but holding the celebration of a Championship team against the individuals as some sort of character deficiency is the absolute most ludicrous set of words I've ever witnessed said or written by a human being above the age of 18.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 15, 2019, 05:48:38 PM
  If drunken, profanity laced outbursts are ok with you in your house, fine .  But don't dump your biases on me. We don't know each other and I would never presume to judge. I want better role models for my daughters. Up to now I was proud of them. My wife and I were disappointed by their actions. Nuff said

Joe Buck?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 15, 2019, 07:01:46 PM


The attendance statement was in relation to the fact that the women generate more ticket revenue then men.

All are facts. I didn't care about per game attendance, because it isn't germane to total revenue.



How do you know the women generate more ticket revenue than the men since their ticket prices are lower and you have no idea how many tickets were given away for free?

Yet you say ALL ARE FACTS.....NOPE.  You have no way of knowing.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 15, 2019, 07:35:07 PM
How do you know the women generate more ticket revenue than the men since their ticket prices are lower and you have no idea how many tickets were given away for free?

Yet you say ALL ARE FACTS.....NOPE.  You have no way of knowing.

If only someone would look into this.
Oh, wait, they did.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 15, 2019, 09:40:19 PM
If only someone would look into this.
Oh, wait, they did.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600

Except it is wrong.  Read the entire article and others that admit to the bundling portion and how therefore it cannot be determined.  Furthermore, they didn’t analyze ticket pricing, etc. 

The media for the last three months has said NFL Sunday Ticket deal was up....Mike Florio again last week, two weeks prior John Olerund, etc....they were wrong.  The media is wrong all the time, but feel free to take them at gospel if you wish.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 15, 2019, 09:47:23 PM
Who cares?. It's irrelevant because a) men and women don't compete against one another at this level and b) it has no bearing on the  revenue the respective teams generate. It has no bearing on the pay discussion.

If it is irrelevant then people should stop saying the women’s team is better.  More correct would be to say the women’s team performs better against other women’s teams then the men’s team does against other men’s teams.

It absolutely should have a bearing on the pay discussion.  Yes or no, is it easier for the women’s team or the men’s team to excel in the world considering the number of countries that play and the level of competency of those other programs?   We all know there are many many many more high level men’s teams than women’s teams.  Easier to advance on the ladies side, why shouldn’t that be part of the calculus?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 15, 2019, 09:50:28 PM


They were extremely professional and have been great, great representatives for our country.

Seems like maybe you think women need to be controlled and told how to act.

yeah, dropping our flag on the ground without any cognizance that is totally disrespectful...yeah great great representatives for who's country?  that was brutally bad, but i guess in your world, no biggie...figures.  let's start with teaching some of your "soccer heroes" how to respect this country.  if that is controlling, oy vey
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 15, 2019, 10:27:54 PM
Were you equally disappointed by every celebration by a men's team ever?

I thought the women were better, shouldn’t they act better?   ?-(
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 15, 2019, 11:07:03 PM
If it is irrelevant then people should stop saying the women’s team is better.  More correct would be to say the women’s team performs better against other women’s teams then the men’s team does against other men’s teams.

It absolutely should have a bearing on the pay discussion.  Yes or no, is it easier for the women’s team or the men’s team to excel in the world considering the number of countries that play and the level of competency of those other programs?   We all know there are many many many more high level men’s teams than women’s teams.  Easier to advance on the ladies side, why shouldn’t that be part of the calculus?

Six days ago, you wrote:
"What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?

Now, after you've been show the women are bringing in more revenue, you literally are saying "Economics be damned, we're not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, teh menz should be paid more because they try."
What a clown show.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 16, 2019, 05:09:40 AM
yeah, dropping our flag on the ground without any cognizance that is totally disrespectful...yeah great great representatives for who's country?  that was brutally bad, but i guess in your world, no biggie...figures.  let's start with teaching some of your "soccer heroes" how to respect this country.  if that is controlling, oy vey

So I understand correctly, flag code is important and upholding the flag code is a reflection of one's respect for the country?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2019, 07:30:57 AM
yeah, dropping our flag on the ground without any cognizance that is totally disrespectful...yeah great great representatives for who's country?  that was brutally bad, but i guess in your world, no biggie...figures.  let's start with teaching some of your "soccer heroes" how to respect this country.  if that is controlling, oy vey

I saw this as well.  Three players had the flag and then started to celebrate and it dropped.  They were not paying attentions to what happened - paying more attention to the fans in front of them and maybe the camera recording them.  Not malice but not paying attention.

Their teammates behind them though saw it and darn near immediately swooped in and picked the flag up. 

Maybe if you are offended by the three you should celebrate the one that corrected the situation.  Is it ok to call her a "soccer hero"? 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 16, 2019, 08:07:02 AM
This topic is great.

So the women, who were criticized by everyone for scoring too much and celebrating too hard, roasted by their former, bitter goaltender on European television, and tweeted at by the President for being...too gay???...are now being criticized again.  This time for drinking and swearing (something pretty much every male team does when they win anything) and accidentally dropping the flag. (Because the flag code was apparently written by God on Mount Sinai.)

It just goes to show you how much many Americans are still uncomfortable with strong, successful women.  Because even when they win, they have to stay in their lane and win the "right" way.  Well good for them for making people uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 16, 2019, 08:22:55 AM
Don't forget 'pushing for equality'.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 16, 2019, 09:20:22 AM
Don't forget 'pushing for equality'.

How dare they ask to be treated as white, male humans.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 16, 2019, 09:44:12 AM
This topic is great.

So the women, who were criticized by everyone for scoring too much and celebrating too hard, roasted by their former, bitter goaltender on European television, and tweeted at by the President for being...too gay???...are now being criticized again.  This time for drinking and swearing (something pretty much every male team does when they win anything) and accidentally dropping the flag. (Because the flag code was apparently written by God on Mount Sinai.)

It just goes to show you how much many Americans are still uncomfortable with strong, successful women.  Because even when they win, they have to stay in their lane and win the "right" way.  Well good for them for making people uncomfortable.

Bravo for this post!!

But can you imagine the cries if one of the women who dropped the flag had brown skin? Send her back to the corrupt sh*thole country she came from! Oops that is where she went back to :-\
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 16, 2019, 09:51:05 AM
Don't forget 'pushing for equality'.


Right.  Good point.  They have to deal with people bending truths, building strawmen and shifting goalposts in any effort to make sure they are paid less than their less successful male counterparts.

But one of them said "f*ck" so they've lost my support on that issue.  ::)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 16, 2019, 12:24:51 PM
The next outrage will be over a female 007 of color.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 16, 2019, 12:32:12 PM
The next outrage will be over a female 007 of color.

I'm not outraged by any means, but I also don't think it makes any sense. If it's a female lead as James Bond 007 that makes no sense because James Bond is a very particular character with a very particular characterization (specifically chauvinistic, masculine, etc). If it's a female character that takes on the 007 moniker but isn't "James Bond" I'd be curious to see what the storyline is and would be totally fine with it if it makes sense. There have been other double Os in the Bond movies, not sure they have to go the 007 route.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 16, 2019, 12:39:30 PM
If it's a female character that takes on the 007 moniker but isn't "James Bond"...

Apparently that's the case.  I read that Craig will actually play Bond in the movie, but that Lynch will be 007.   I haven't seen a Bond movie for many years.  I've meant to watch some of the Craig movies because I've heard that they're good, but I've not gotten around to it.  This might actually get me out to see the next one because I'm curious how they're going to handle it.  I'm not familiar with Lynch, but I'd like to see how she handles the role.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 16, 2019, 01:14:16 PM
I'm not outraged by any means, but I also don't think it makes any sense. If it's a female lead as James Bond 007 that makes no sense because James Bond is a very particular character with a very particular characterization (specifically chauvinistic, masculine, etc). If it's a female character that takes on the 007 moniker but isn't "James Bond" I'd be curious to see what the storyline is and would be totally fine with it if it makes sense. There have been other double Os in the Bond movies, not sure they have to go the 007 route.

I just wonder if the female James Bond will continue to chase after hot, young women.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 16, 2019, 02:04:05 PM
I just wonder if the female James Bond will continue to chase after hot, young women.

I'd watch
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on July 16, 2019, 02:46:28 PM
I'm not outraged by any means, but I also don't think it makes any sense. If it's a female lead as James Bond 007 that makes no sense because James Bond is a very particular character with a very particular characterization (specifically chauvinistic, masculine, etc). If it's a female character that takes on the 007 moniker but isn't "James Bond" I'd be curious to see what the storyline is and would be totally fine with it if it makes sense. There have been other double Os in the Bond movies, not sure they have to go the 007 route.

Thats sort of the issue I had with it as well.  They broke from the traditional canon of Bond being dark haired with longish hair when they moved to Daniel Craig, and that was met with some resistance at the time.  But relying on 007 being merely a title was how it was justified, as he fulfilled the other "criteria" for what the character embodied.  I just find it odd how there was griping and pushback when someone like Idris Elba (who would be an absolutely fantastic Bond) was suggested, and after bandying about some lesser known actors, they chose to make this leap.  It seems like overkill to placate.  But thats just my opinion.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: mu03eng on July 16, 2019, 03:39:46 PM
Thats sort of the issue I had with it as well.  They broke from the traditional canon of Bond being dark haired with longish hair when they moved to Daniel Craig, and that was met with some resistance at the time.  But relying on 007 being merely a title was how it was justified, as he fulfilled the other "criteria" for what the character embodied.  I just find it odd how there was griping and pushback when someone like Idris Elba (who would be an absolutely fantastic Bond) was suggested, and after bandying about some lesser known actors, they chose to make this leap.  It seems like overkill to placate.  But thats just my opinion.

Would love Idris Elba as Bond (could not be more excited for him as a bad guy in Hobbes and Shaw).
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: GB Warrior on July 16, 2019, 03:57:59 PM
The next outrage will be over a female 007 of color.

I think this outrage would be appropriate because Idris Elba as Bond would fookin kick ass, so anything other than that is unacceptable.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 16, 2019, 07:17:51 PM
I saw this as well.  Three players had the flag and then started to celebrate and it dropped.  They were not paying attentions to what happened - paying more attention to the fans in front of them and maybe the camera recording them.  Not malice but not paying attention.

Their teammates behind them though saw it and darn near immediately swooped in and picked the flag up. 

Maybe if you are offended by the three you should celebrate the one that corrected the situation.  Is it ok to call her a "soccer hero"?

yes, absolutely!  thank you for pointing that out, my mistake for not pointing it out.  that was a great great heads up move and she set a great great example

btw, i did not say i was offended.  i was merely pointing out the weakness in calling the soccer team for being great great whatevers.  it's just sad, that's all.  it takes a lot to OFFEND me.  i know where i stand...
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 16, 2019, 07:27:18 PM
Bravo for this post!!

But can you imagine the cries if one of the women who dropped the flag had brown skin? Send her back to the corrupt sh*thole country she came from! Oops that is where she went back to :-\

 ho boy!  nuff said
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 16, 2019, 08:09:18 PM
yes, absolutely!  thank you for pointing that out, my mistake for not pointing it out.  that was a great great heads up move and she set a great great example

btw, i did not say i was offended.  i was merely pointing out the weakness in calling the soccer team for being great great whatevers.  it's just sad, that's all.  it takes a lot to OFFEND me.  i know where i stand...


It’s not sad at all. It was a mistake. And they are most definitely great, and wonderful representatives of our country. It’s a shame you can’t see that.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 16, 2019, 08:31:36 PM

It’s not sad at all. It was a mistake. And they are most definitely great, and wonderful representatives of our country. It’s a shame you can’t see that.

 i missed their apology.  they won the world cup!  4th out of the last 8 i believe.  great achievement!  don't shame me for not seeing what you do.  great accomplishment!

  you guys as humid up there around the bay as it is down here?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 16, 2019, 08:58:21 PM
i missed their apology.  they won the world cup!  4th out of the last 8 i believe.  great achievement!  don't shame me for not seeing what you do.  great accomplishment!

  you guys as humid up there around the bay as it is down here?

???

What do they need to apologize for?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 16, 2019, 09:04:18 PM
???

What do they need to apologize for?

dropping the flag-could have acknowledged the oopsie doopsie that's all.  some people in this country don't realize it should NEVER touch the ground...especially those who burn it
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Golden Avalanche on July 16, 2019, 09:31:59 PM
dropping the flag-could have acknowledged the oopsie doopsie that's all.  some people in this country don't realize it should NEVER touch the ground...especially those who burn it

Holy unnatural carnal knowledgeing $hit this is pure madness.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 17, 2019, 12:17:04 AM
Six days ago, you wrote:
"What statement does it make....we’re not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, but because it makes everyone feel better?  Economics be damned?

Now, after you've been show the women are bringing in more revenue, you literally are saying "Economics be damned, we're not going to base compensation on value, revenue coming in, etc, teh menz should be paid more because they try."
What a clown show.

I haven’t been shown a thing....read the article again and tell me who brought in more overall revenue....stop cherry picking.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on July 18, 2019, 11:04:37 AM
Now those who are put off by the team's public displays are sexist and don't want strong women?
What gibberish. These women have been and are role models for my daughters and millions of young ladies. I would expect better representation for the country and hope for good examples on how to act in the public eye. Why can't we just be proud of their accomplishments without the crudity and politics. There is enough of that crap everywhere else.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on July 18, 2019, 11:30:18 AM
Now those who are put off by the team's public displays are sexist and don't want strong women?
What gibberish. These women have been and are role models for my daughters and millions of young ladies. I would expect better representation for the country and hope for good examples on how to act in the public eye. Why can't we just be proud of their accomplishments without the crudity and politics. There is enough of that crap everywhere else.

Everyone found it amusing when the NBC mics picked up the Blues players dropping F bombs repeatedly while skating with Lord Stanley's Cup. But women do it and we start clutching the pearls, saying they're supposed to be nice, demure, subservient role models and young girls can't possibly go on in life hearing a female swear.

As for the politics, I remember Mark Chmura refusing the go to the White House in 1997 and citing the Lewinski scandal, and everyone loved him for "taking a stand for morality." Does anyone remember what old Chewey did next?

Politics is ingrained in sports. From Jesse Owens, to Branch Rickey to Ali and John Carlos and Tommy Smith, then to Billy Jean King and not modern day with Kaepernick, LeBron and the USWNT. It's worldwide too (Petrovic and Divac during the break up of the former Yugoslavia are an excellent example, as well as Shaquri today). People can say "shut up a dribble" but they don't tell an accountant "shut up and count numbers" or a plumber "shut up and fix pipes." Why should athletes (or entertainers) be prohibited from having an opinion on current events?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 18, 2019, 11:33:19 AM
Now those who are put off by the team's public displays are sexist and don't want strong women?
What gibberish. These women have been and are role models for my daughters and millions of young ladies. I would expect better representation for the country and hope for good examples on how to act in the public eye. Why can't we just be proud of their accomplishments without the crudity and politics. There is enough of that crap everywhere else.

I think I know what others here are trying to say, but I won't speak for them.

From my POV, my issue is that it seems you're holding this particular group of women to different standards. Do you get upset about other professional athletes' celebration displays? Regardless of sport, gender, regional/national etc.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: RJax55 on July 18, 2019, 11:39:35 AM
Now those who are put off by the team's public displays are sexist and don't want strong women?
What gibberish. These women have been and are role models for my daughters and millions of young ladies. I would expect better representation for the country and hope for good examples on how to act in the public eye. Why can't we just be proud of their accomplishments without the crudity and politics. There is enough of that crap everywhere else.

I'm a casual observer, but I thought these ladies represented themselves and the U.S. perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 18, 2019, 11:40:20 AM
Made me proud.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on July 18, 2019, 08:12:38 PM
If that is where you set the bar I have no quarrel.  What American was not proud of their on pitch performances.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 18, 2019, 08:17:04 PM
I saw the world's best celebrating success in creative ways.  Personally liked the polite golf clap the best, a sarcastic response to their critics. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 18, 2019, 08:23:07 PM
Now those who are put off by the team's public displays are sexist and don't want strong women?

For the most part, yes.


What gibberish. These women have been and are role models for my daughters and millions of young ladies. I would expect better representation for the country and hope for good examples on how to act in the public eye.

They were great both on the pitch and off.


Why can't we just be proud of their accomplishments without the crudity and politics. There is enough of that crap everywhere else.

So why should they be exempt from that?  Sports and politics have been intertwined forever.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 18, 2019, 08:41:46 PM
I think about some of the elaborate touchdown celebrations in the NFL.   Particularly ironic when you just cut the lead to 31-14.    I think about the celebrations in men's soccer.    I think about the flexing that goes on when a particularly vicious dunk is one of 30 baskets scored in a game.    I think about the elaborate handshakes in rituals in a dugout after a home run.     Then I think about how the best women's soccer team in the world celebrated their 26 goals (most ever) en route to a World Cup in which they never trailed.   And I think...'meh.   Why is everybody getting their knickers in a twist?'     And then I decide the problem must reside in the hearts of those getting upset.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 18, 2019, 11:55:08 PM
I think about some of the elaborate touchdown celebrations in the NFL.   Particularly ironic when you just cut the lead to 31-14.    I think about the celebrations in men's soccer.    I think about the flexing that goes on when a particularly vicious dunk is one of 30 baskets scored in a game.    I think about the elaborate handshakes in rituals in a dugout after a home run.     Then I think about how the best women's soccer team in the world celebrated their 26 goals (most ever) en route to a World Cup in which they never trailed.   And I think...'meh.   Why is everybody getting their knickers in a twist?'     And then I decide the problem must reside in the hearts of those getting upset.

This.

Go Rapinoe!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 19, 2019, 09:39:40 AM
I think about some of the elaborate touchdown celebrations in the NFL.   Particularly ironic when you just cut the lead to 31-14.    I think about the celebrations in men's soccer.    I think about the flexing that goes on when a particularly vicious dunk is one of 30 baskets scored in a game.    I think about the elaborate handshakes in rituals in a dugout after a home run.     Then I think about how the best women's soccer team in the world celebrated their 26 goals (most ever) en route to a World Cup in which they never trailed.   And I think...'meh.   Why is everybody getting their knickers in a twist?'     And then I decide the problem must reside in the hearts of those getting upset.
I do not like soccer and did not watch one second of the tournament and didn't care at all whether we won.  The people I do know who love soccer are the people I work with in Europe and South America (male and female) and they didn't watch any of it and didn't care, either.  During the men's world cup people were going into conference rooms with telepresence and hooking into the feed of South Korea vs. Nigeria or whatever to watch the games, but I didn't hear a peep about the women's world cup.

FWIW, I have no trouble with winning by 13-0.  It is a tournament where goal differential can matter after all, and doing your best shouldn't be a crime.  I do have a problem with elaborate, over the top celebrations when you're ahead 9-0, though.  No need to rub it in.  As mentioned above I have the same problems when men playing the sports I love do it.  I had parents and coaches browbeat sportsmanship into me since I was a little kid.  "Act like you've been there before.  How would you like it if your nose was rubbed in it like that."  Of course I also had a coach tell me, when I had the audacity to wear tube socks with stripes that were different from our team colors during a basketball practice, to never do it again because I "wasn't playing for the Puerto Rican Olympic team."  So it was a different time in both good and bad ways.

I realize that world has passed me by and I know idiots from my generation like Mark Gastineau did stupid stuff that really got it rolling.  I understand it, but don't like it.  You hear all the time about the evils of disrespect of others nowadays (and rightfully so) that it is weird to me that we often encourage/applaud it on our sports fields.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: shoothoops on July 21, 2019, 08:44:54 PM
19 page thread. Can’t answer every post but I can pick out a few things I read to offer my two cents. In no order:

1) I have read some say the men’s team is better so why do the women deserve equal pay etc...But many have missed a key point: “Entertainment Value.”

Take women’s tennis. Many people who own and run some tournaments, sponsors, fans, players, believe the women’s game offers high entertainment value. Would the women defeat the men? Nope. But that isn’t what it’s about. Some still have trouble understanding and appreciating women’s sports as its own separate entity.  Those that know tennis know the top women’s players would not defeat even the top few hundred men’s players. Or in soccer, the Boys 16’s teams have defeated the women’s national team with regularity over the years in privately held matches. Many believe the U.S. women’s soccer team etc...has brought high entertainment value over a long period of time to warrant better pay.

2) Popularity, ratings etc...any World Cup etc...will get higher ratings men or women in the U.S. if it is played in a U.S. friendly time zone.

3) Celebrations. The leash is deservedly longer for women because they have been suppressed for a very long time in many ways. To soccer die hards, choreographed late goal celebrations in a 13-0 type of win isn’t great etiquette. It’s like running up the score in American football. The difference is running up the score in American football has been going on for a very long time. Some say run it up or play defense or stop the team. Others say running up score is not good etiquette etc...but this was a new thing for the women this year. If it had been going on for years and decades then maybe there is a bigger discussion.  Also, there are unfortunately some sexist and misogynistic men out there that are threatened by strong female personalities and/or demonstrative displays of strength.

The Women’s World Cup was great for everyone, especially women and young females, but really everyone.  I believe one of the better ways to capitalize and build a future successful pro league in the U.S. is to get MLS teams to also have a women’s team and share resources. This approach has had some success in Europe recently where 7 of the 8 women’s quarterfinalists were European countries for the first time ever. (Also it has worked well in some markets that share NFL resources with MLS.)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on July 21, 2019, 09:38:28 PM

The Women’s World Cup was great for everyone, especially women and young females, but really everyone.  I believe one of the better ways to capitalize and build a future successful pro league in the U.S. is to get MLS teams to also have a women’s team and share resources. This approach has had some success in Europe recently where 7 of the 8 women’s quarterfinalists were European countries for the first time ever. (Also it has worked well in some markets that share NFL resources with MLS.)

Portland is a perfect example of this. The Timbers and Thorns are owned by the same individual and operated nearly equally in terms of resources. It shows in the record. Houston is also owned by the same group that owns the MLS team.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Lennys Tap on July 22, 2019, 12:49:45 AM
I do not like soccer and did not watch one second of the tournament and didn't care at all whether we won.  The people I do know who love soccer are the people I work with in Europe and South America (male and female) and they didn't watch any of it and didn't care, either.  During the men's world cup people were going into conference rooms with telepresence and hooking into the feed of South Korea vs. Nigeria or whatever to watch the games, but I didn't hear a peep about the women's world cup.

FWIW, I have no trouble with winning by 13-0.  It is a tournament where goal differential can matter after all, and doing your best shouldn't be a crime.  I do have a problem with elaborate, over the top celebrations when you're ahead 9-0, though.  No need to rub it in.  As mentioned above I have the same problems when men playing the sports I love do it.  I had parents and coaches browbeat sportsmanship into me since I was a little kid.  "Act like you've been there before.  How would you like it if your nose was rubbed in it like that."  Of course I also had a coach tell me, when I had the audacity to wear tube socks with stripes that were different from our team colors during a basketball practice, to never do it again because I "wasn't playing for the Puerto Rican Olympic team."  So it was a different time in both good and bad ways.

I realize that world has passed me by and I know idiots from my generation like Mark Gastineau did stupid stuff that really got it rolling.  I understand it, but don't like it.  You hear all the time about the evils of disrespect of others nowadays (and rightfully so) that it is weird to me that we often encourage/applaud it on our sports fields.

I watched and cheered some. Other than that, my feelings exactly.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 22, 2019, 05:23:53 AM
Watching the Atl DC game yesterday.    Watched the celebrations after the goals in a MLS game.    Compared them to the celebrations in the world cup.    Wondered what the big deal was.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 22, 2019, 09:24:37 AM
Watching the Atl DC game yesterday.    Watched the celebrations after the goals in a MLS game.    Compared them to the celebrations in the world cup.    Wondered what the big deal was.

Just think of who is doing the complaining. That explains everything.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on July 22, 2019, 12:51:09 PM
Watching the Atl DC game yesterday.    Watched the celebrations after the goals in a MLS game.    Compared them to the celebrations in the world cup.    Wondered what the big deal was.

If Rapinoe had taken and missed one of her penalties in the manner that Martinez did yesterday, that section of the internet may have imploded.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 22, 2019, 01:55:44 PM
Watching the Atl DC game yesterday.    Watched the celebrations after the goals in a MLS game.    Compared them to the celebrations in the world cup.    Wondered what the big deal was.
Did one of the teams score to go ahead 9-0 and celebrate like crazy?  I'm guessing no.  Call anyone complaining an old fogey or whatever all you want, there is no reason other than douchebaggery to rub it in when you are annihilating a vastly inferior team and the game has long ago been decided.  That's true if it is a 5 year old t-ball game or an international competition.  I honestly don't get the defense of it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 22, 2019, 02:05:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTNIWbGmzGU

How many of their tongue out dunks, alley oops, or no look passes were done after the result was no longer in doubt?  How much trash was talked?  How much were they criticized?  How much were they celebrated?

Extremely dominant group of players going out there and destroying their vastly inferior competition, and having fun with their teammates while doing it.  Which team did I just describe?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 22, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Did one of the teams score to go ahead 9-0 and celebrate like crazy?  I'm guessing no.  Call anyone complaining an old fogey or whatever all you want, there is no reason other than douchebaggery to rub it in when you are annihilating a vastly inferior team and the game has long ago been decided.  That's true if it is a 5 year old t-ball game or an international competition.  I honestly don't get the defense of it.

When the Yankees are ahead 10-0 in a game, should all batters be told to leave the bat on their shoulders and just strikeout?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 22, 2019, 02:15:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTNIWbGmzGU

How many of their tongue out dunks, alley oops, or no look passes were done after the result was no longer in doubt?  How much trash was talked?  How much were they criticized?  How much were they celebrated?

Extremely dominant group of players going out there and destroying their vastly inferior competition, and having fun with their teammates while doing it.  Which team did I just describe?
Didn't like that, either.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 22, 2019, 02:22:45 PM
Didn't like that, either.

So if you know that you're going to win, what is the correct amount to win by?  If you're up by 20 in bball or 4 in soccer do you just take shot clock violations/ pass the ball around?  Is it not the entertainers job to entertain?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 22, 2019, 02:25:42 PM
When the Yankees are ahead 10-0 in a game, should all batters be told to leave the bat on their shoulders and just strikeout?

I have no complaint about them scoring goals when ahead 10-0 and I said that earlier.  Just the celebration.  (10-0 is not insurmountable in baseball by the way.  I've seen my Red Sox blow a 10-0 6th inning lead.  A 10-0 lead in soccer is akin to maybe 30-0 in baseball.  Would you think it was OK if someone hit a 7th inning home run to put their team up 30-0 and jumped around and showed off for the crowd like that?  People went ballistic about the bat flip by Bautista to break a tie late in a do-or-die game and it wasn't 1/10th what the US did in a preliminary game to go up 9-0).  As I said, I never watched the tournament.  Saw the celebration to put them up 9-0 on the news and was very turned off by it, as was whatever local newscaster that was showing it.  I understand others feel differently, but for the life of me I can't understand why someone would behave that way.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 22, 2019, 02:55:44 PM
You are opposed to gratuitous, over the top celebrations in any blow out.   That is a fair position to take.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: JWags85 on July 22, 2019, 02:56:54 PM
Did one of the teams score to go ahead 9-0 and celebrate like crazy?  I'm guessing no.  Call anyone complaining an old fogey or whatever all you want, there is no reason other than douchebaggery to rub it in when you are annihilating a vastly inferior team and the game has long ago been decided.  That's true if it is a 5 year old t-ball game or an international competition.  I honestly don't get the defense of it.

Its the first game of a new WC.  Rapinoe, for all of her press, was basically out of the USWNT discussion for a long stretch in between World Cups.  She had some injury issues and she's well beyond her prime.  There was likely some jubilation to not only be back in the WC with the national team but scoring goals, hers put them up 9-0.

 And then at 11-0, you have Mal Pugh, in her first World Cup, scoring a goal and fulfilling a childhood dream.  So criticizing a 21 year old on the biggest stage in the sport celebrating her biggest moment is lame to me.  Morgan and Lloyd's later goals weren't wildly celebrated, just a high five or two.

People act like they were power sliding and Ronaldo jump-celebrating every goal.  Also, saying Bautista's bat flip was 1/10th of a US goal celebration is INSANITY.  They ran to the sideline and posed/jumped a bit.  Bautista didn't just pimp, watch it, or bat flip.  He glared, spiked his bat defiantly, and gesticulated.  Compared to most baseball reactions, it was WAYY over the top (and amazing).  If it wasn't 9-0, their celebration wouldn't even merit discussion as over the top.

I bet you drool with pride over Barry Sanders simply handing the ball to the ref.  ::)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 22, 2019, 03:00:45 PM

I bet you drool with pride over Barry Sanders simply handing the ball to the ref.  ::)
I did when he was THE reason to watch a Lion's game.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 22, 2019, 03:07:39 PM
So if you know that you're going to win, what is the correct amount to win by?  If you're up by 20 in bball or 4 in soccer do you just take shot clock violations/ pass the ball around?  Is it not the entertainers job to entertain?
My apologies, here.  I didn't even look at the video, since it was blocked when I tried.  Based on your description, I assumed it showed the US team trash talking teams against whom they were up by 40 or something, so I said I didn't like that, either.  IIRC correctly, Barkley may have some of that.  (Weirdly, I find Barkley amusing)  If it was just them scoring in spectacular ways in an already decided game, I'd have less of a problem with that. 

Most coaches empty the bench when the game is a blow out which generally helps hold down the romp.  In the case of the dream team, the bench was not really much different than the starters, so emptying the bench just meant you had fresher bodies to stomp the other team with.  In soccer there isn't much you can do to empty the bench, so it is difficult to avoid running up the score unless you want to play keep away.  Consequently, I understand the margin is going to be big.  You don't have to celebrate like you scored the go ahead goal in an elimination game every time you tack on another meaningless goal in a blowout, though.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 22, 2019, 03:09:56 PM
You are opposed to gratuitous, over the top celebrations in any blow out.   That is a fair position to take.
Yup, that is basically it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 22, 2019, 03:20:39 PM
I did when he was THE reason to watch a Lion's game.
Watching Barry run the ball was all you needed to see.  He may have been the only reason to watch the Lions, but he would have been the BEST reason to watch a game regardless of the team he was on.  Any post run celebration would not have done anything to enhance his brilliance and would have been a waste of his energy.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 22, 2019, 04:43:10 PM
I have no complaint about them scoring goals when ahead 10-0 and I said that earlier.  Just the celebration.  (10-0 is not insurmountable in baseball by the way.  I've seen my Red Sox blow a 10-0 6th inning lead.  A 10-0 lead in soccer is akin to maybe 30-0 in baseball.  Would you think it was OK if someone hit a 7th inning home run to put their team up 30-0 and jumped around and showed off for the crowd like that?  People went ballistic about the bat flip by Bautista to break a tie late in a do-or-die game and it wasn't 1/10th what the US did in a preliminary game to go up 9-0).  As I said, I never watched the tournament.  Saw the celebration to put them up 9-0 on the news and was very turned off by it, as was whatever local newscaster that was showing it.  I understand others feel differently, but for the life of me I can't understand why someone would behave that way.

Fair enough, CT.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 22, 2019, 04:59:02 PM
I have no complaint about them scoring goals when ahead 10-0 and I said that earlier.  Just the celebration.  (10-0 is not insurmountable in baseball by the way.  I've seen my Red Sox blow a 10-0 6th inning lead.  A 10-0 lead in soccer is akin to maybe 30-0 in baseball.  Would you think it was OK if someone hit a 7th inning home run to put their team up 30-0 and jumped around and showed off for the crowd like that?  People went ballistic about the bat flip by Bautista to break a tie late in a do-or-die game and it wasn't 1/10th what the US did in a preliminary game to go up 9-0).  As I said, I never watched the tournament.  Saw the celebration to put them up 9-0 on the news and was very turned off by it, as was whatever local newscaster that was showing it.  I understand others feel differently, but for the life of me I can't understand why someone would behave that way.

So the goals after 10-0 were...

So the three goals after 10 were someone's first ever WWC goal and two goals that tied or broke records. But hey, when something happens that has either never happened or only happened once before nearly 3 decades prior, you should just go sit in the corner quietly.

If someone was up 30-0 in baseball and hit their first home run, or hit their fifth home run of the game, or 74th home run of the season, I would certainly expect them to celebrate like crazy, and it would be completely warranted. That's what you're criticizing.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: 21Jumpstreet on July 22, 2019, 06:54:39 PM
So the goals after 10-0 were...

  • 11: Mallory Pugh scores her first ever World Cup goal in her first ever appearance.
  • 12: Alex Morgan scores her record-tying fifth goal of the match, matching Michelle Akers' 28-year-old record.
  • 13: Carli Lloyd scores in her sixth straight Women's World Cup, breaking her own record.
So the three goals after 10 were someone's first ever WWC goal and two goals that tied or broke records. But hey, when something happens that has either never happened or only happened once before nearly 3 decades prior, you should just go sit in the corner quietly.

If someone was up 30-0 in baseball and hit their first home run, or hit their fifth home run of the game, or 74th home run of the season, I would certainly expect them to celebrate like crazy, and it would be completely warranted. That's what you're criticizing.

This is exactly how I feel. It wasn’t a culture of excessive, in your face, disrespectful celebrating. It was some pretty personally important goals that I find it hard to believe any of us would have just turned around and run back to our half of the pitch for the restart.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 22, 2019, 09:43:40 PM
This is exactly how I feel. It wasn’t a culture of excessive, in your face, disrespectful celebrating. It was some pretty personally important goals that I find it hard to believe any of us would have just turned around and run back to our half of the pitch for the restart.

I remember the Cowboys up 18-6 on the Packers during the Barry Switzer era and they brought in Chris Boinol in at the end of the game for a “personal” goal to kick 7 field goals in one game.  It set a NFL record.  He nailed it and the outcry of them being classless, running up the score, etc, etc was deafening in Wisconsin.  This was before social media, back in ‘96 if I recall.  Absolutely deafening.

Several players got kicked out at the end of the game, all kinds of charges made.


Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 23, 2019, 09:37:03 AM
I am long past whining about celebrations. I loved watching Sanders and thought he was a classy guy; but I also got a kick out of T.O.'s shenanigans.

You don't want somebody to celebrate? Don't let them score a TD, hit a HR, make a basket, etc.

Now ... on the flip side ... if you do in-your-face celebrations all the time, you are not allowed to get p-o'd when opponents mock you if you suck in a game, or if the media rips you for celebrating when you could have recovered a fumble, or if fans take extra delight in you getting hurt.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 23, 2019, 11:02:19 AM
I remember the Cowboys up 18-6 on the Packers during the Barry Switzer era and they brought in Chris Bonilla in at the end of the game for a “personal” goal to kick 7 field goals in one game.  It set a NFL record.  He nailed it and the outcry of them being classless, running up the score, etc, etc was deafening in Wisconsin.  This was before social media, back in ‘96 if I recall.  Absolutely deafening.

Several players got kicked out at the end of the game, all kinds of charges made.

Reinventing history are we now.

1. There was not a deafening outcry in Wisconsin.
2. Packers said after the game, they didn't realize he was going for a record, and wouldn't have reacted the same way had they known that.
3. Packer players went up to him after the game and congratulated him, once they knew he was going for a record.

So if anything, your story supports the assertion that you are arguing against.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jockey on July 23, 2019, 11:13:08 AM
I am long past whining about celebrations. I loved watching Sanders and thought he was a classy guy; but I also got a kick out of T.O.'s shenanigans.

You don't want somebody to celebrate? Don't let them score a TD, hit a HR, make a basket, etc.


It’s ludicrous to expect guys or gals not to try to score as much as possible. Contracts are based on production. It is the offenses job to score. As you say, it is the other team’s job to stop them.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 23, 2019, 11:29:32 AM
Reinventing history are we now.

1. There was not a deafening outcry in Wisconsin.
2. Packers said after the game, they didn't realize he was going for a record, and wouldn't have reacted the same way had they known that.
3. Packer players went up to him after the game and congratulated him, once they knew he was going for a record.

So if anything, your story supports the assertion that you are arguing against.

Bullcrap

There was a massive outcry, especially in Wisconsin.  As a Cowboys fan I lived in Wisconsin at the time, the Cowboys has beaten the Pack 7 straight so there was extra sting.  To suggest there wasn’t massive bitching about it in the radio and media that week is laughable.

You are also not connecting dots properly.  The outcry was mostly by the fans, though some players also were not cool about it (some were).  Just as most of the outrage on the women’s team was on social media by fans....so I don’t know why you aren’t comparing apples to apples here.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 23, 2019, 11:32:55 AM
It’s ludicrous to expect guys or gals not to try to score as much as possible. Contracts are based on production. It is the offenses job to score. As you say, it is the other team’s job to stop them.

Why, this happens all the time in blowout games where teams take their foot off the gas.  Football teams stop throwing, teams out in scrubs (hard to do in soccer due to limitations), but to suggest t is ludicrous isn’t supported by reality.  Teams pull back all the time in sports not to run it up.  Nothing at all ludicrous about it.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 23, 2019, 11:42:33 AM
Bringing up a football game from 23 years ago.  Goalpost shifting.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MUBBau on July 23, 2019, 11:47:48 AM
Bringing up a football game from 23 years ago.  Goalpost shifting.

Pretty amazing he was able to kick 7 field goals with that happening.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 23, 2019, 11:56:08 AM
Pretty amazing he was able to kick 7 field goals with that happening.

Lol.

I’m really not even sure what the point is. Standards can most certainly change in two decades.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 23, 2019, 11:59:13 AM
I placed it on a tee.   Glad somebody finished.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on July 23, 2019, 01:26:12 PM
I am long past whining about celebrations. I loved watching Sanders and thought he was a classy guy; but I also got a kick out of T.O.'s shenanigans.

You don't want somebody to celebrate? Don't let them score a TD, hit a HR, make a basket, etc.

Now ... on the flip side ... if you do in-your-face celebrations all the time, you are not allowed to get p-o'd when opponents mock you if you suck in a game, or if the media rips you for celebrating when you could have recovered a fumble, or if fans take extra delight in you getting hurt.

I'm with you. I love that the NFL allows the choreographed celebrations now. Some are absolutely hilarious and add to the entertainment value of the game.  I'm also sure many here enjoyed David Cubillian's shoulder shake after threes, the "three goggles" and other celebrations by MU players over the years.  Everyone in America seemed to love the Monmouth "Bench Mob" a few years ago. Hell, in 1991 everyone loved the run Jimmy Connors was on in the US Open thanks to the raw emotion he showed (the Krickstein and Haarhuis matches were epic and Connors' celebrations after individual points were beloved). Meanwhile, go back 30+ years and the US media and fans always mocked the athletes from the USSR and East Germany (and today, China) as being "emotionless robots."

There's a difference between celebration and taunting.  None of the celebrations by USWNT players were designed nor intended to mock the other team.  Even Rapinoe's in the Thailand match, which many point to as "inappropritate" was done for her brother (if you haven't seen the ESPN story about that, look it up). 

I say have play hard, have fun and celebrate.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 23, 2019, 01:29:42 PM
Bringing up a football game from 23 years ago.  Goalpost shifting.

How?  If you mean it showed the same human behavior....you are right.  If exposes some hypocrisy, you are also right.

No goalpost shifting at all.  Running up score, near end of game, to get personal records, team bashed for it....only difference is the ladies apparently get a bit more of a free pass for some reason.  Not sure why.

Happy to bring up more current examples, I just happened to live that one and it touched a nerve...it was either a MNF or SNF game and the howling was ridiculous.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 23, 2019, 01:30:18 PM
Pretty amazing he was able to kick 7 field goals with that happening.

Well played....you win Scoop for today.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: CTWarrior on July 23, 2019, 01:32:01 PM
Pretty amazing he was able to kick 7 field goals with that happening.
It depends on whether the goalpost shifter was trying to help or hurt the kicker.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: tower912 on July 23, 2019, 04:02:24 PM
How?  If you mean it showed the same human behavior....you are right.  If exposes some hypocrisy, you are also right.

No goalpost shifting at all.  Running up score, near end of game, to get personal records, team bashed for it....only difference is the ladies apparently get a bit more of a free pass for some reason.  Not sure why.

Happy to bring up more current examples, I just happened to live that one and it touched a nerve...it was either a MNF or SNF game and the howling was ridiculous.

Humor.   Kicking field goals.    Shifting goalposts.    Sigh.   
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 23, 2019, 04:13:25 PM
How?  If you mean it showed the same human behavior....you are right.  If exposes some hypocrisy, you are also right.

No goalpost shifting at all.  Running up score, near end of game, to get personal records, team bashed for it....only difference is the ladies apparently get a bit more of a free pass for some reason.  Not sure why.

Happy to bring up more current examples, I just happened to live that one and it touched a nerve...it was either a MNF or SNF game and the howling was ridiculous.


It was a Monday Night Game.  And the issue the Packers had with it wasn't that he kicked a FG.  It was that the Cowboys called a TO with under a minute left to give him the opportunity.

But the Cowboys haven't gotten to a Super Bowl since, so all is good.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 23, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Humor.   Kicking field goals.    Shifting goalposts.    Sigh.

Definitely missed it.....intentional on your part or because Deane found it?  If intentional you also win for the day.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 23, 2019, 08:15:10 PM

It was a Monday Night Game.  And the issue the Packers had with it wasn't that he kicked a FG.  It was that the Cowboys called a TO with under a minute left to give him the opportunity.

But the Cowboys haven't gotten to a Super Bowl since, so all is good.

Why would calling the timeout matter?  It’s still an opportunity?

What makes me laugh is I expected the SJWs of today not to care back then, they did....and now in present day where trophies for all we have folks just fine with running up the score....as long as you play for USWMNT....now if you were Alabama and Nick Saban, well that’s a different story.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 23, 2019, 09:10:01 PM
Why would calling the timeout matter?  It’s still an opportunity?

What makes me laugh is I expected the SJWs of today not to care back then, they did....and now in present day where trophies for all we have folks just fine with running up the score....as long as you play for USWMNT....now if you were Alabama and Nick Saban, well that’s a different story.


How does not having a problem with the USWNT scoring and celebrating make me a SJW?  Very strange.

As for the Cowboys in 1996, I honestly had no recollection of the game. I was also 30 years old at the time and undoubtedly held different views on a number of things than I do now. Just like most people.

I can pretty much guaranty that if the Cowboys did the same exact thing to the Packers this year that I wouldn’t have much problem with it. So really your point is very weak.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 24, 2019, 01:16:53 AM
Why, this happens all the time in blowout games where teams take their foot off the gas.  Football teams stop throwing, teams out in scrubs (hard to do in soccer due to limitations), but to suggest t is ludicrous isn’t supported by reality.  Teams pull back all the time in sports not to run it up.  Nothing at all ludicrous about it.

There is a difference between taking the foot off the gas and just stopping playing.

I coach basketball. When we have a big lead against an obviously inferior opponent, we don't press, we don't run-and-gun, we clear the bench, I never question even an egregiously bad officiating call (unless injury is involved or possible), etc. But I don't just tell my players to stop trying to score, to stop playing solid D, to stop trying to get every rebound, to stop hustling. I want my kids to "play right" all the time, and I don't want to encourage bad habits.

Are my kids supposed to not dive to the floor for a loose basketball or to not try to block a shot just because we are up 35?

Same with football. Sure, take the air out of it; but does the team that's way ahead not try to advance the football on the ground? Do they just take a knee every play? Do they stop trying to play defense?

Sometimes -- actually, quite often -- you can do everything in your power to try to not run it up but the blowout worsens anyway.

Heck, I even had one game where we got up by 15 fairly early and I called off our press, and the opposing coach called time-out and calmly asked me to please put the press back on because he wanted his kids to learn how to beat the press. He knew they would lose, but he wanted them to get better for later in the season -- and indeed they did, handled our press much better the second time we faced them. How about that?

I can't remember which manager said it, but there was something along the lines of: "I'll stop trying to steal a base when we're up 8 if you promise to stop trying to hit a home run when you're down 8."
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 24, 2019, 07:12:03 AM
There is a difference between taking the foot off the gas and just stopping playing....Same with football. Sure, take the air out of it; but does the team that's way ahead not try to advance the football on the ground? Do they just take a knee every play? Do they stop trying to play defense?

Case in point (https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/11/11/Notre-Dame-59-Southern-Methodist-6/3399626763600/).  I remember this game vividly.  ND took a lot of heat at the time for essentially stopping playing, culminating when Sezter ignored a clear path to the end zone and ran out of bounds.  It can be a fine line between taking the foot off the gas and stopping.  ND clearly stepped over it.  From what I've read (I didn't see the game), the talent disparity with the USWNT and Thailand was so huge that there honestly wasn't much they could do without crossing that line.

And yes, I'm well aware of the, "it wasn't the goals, it was the celebration" angle.  I'm just responding to MU82's comment.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 24, 2019, 11:15:10 AM
Reinventing history are we now.

1. There was not a deafening outcry in Wisconsin.
2. Packers said after the game, they didn't realize he was going for a record, and wouldn't have reacted the same way had they known that.
3. Packer players went up to him after the game and congratulated him, once they knew he was going for a record.

So if anything, your story supports the assertion that you are arguing against.

Bull crap

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-11-19-9611190244-story,amp.html

Even Aikman was upset by it

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: forgetful on July 24, 2019, 10:49:22 PM
Bull crap

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-11-19-9611190244-story,amp.html

Even Aikman was upset by it

Your own article says the Packers were unaware he was going for a record, and says they cooled off when they knew.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/525520/JUST-FOR-KICKS-COWBOYS-BONIOL-SETS-RECORD.html

Says a Packer even congratulated him.

What I said is fact.

I'm a big Packer fan. Despise the Cowboys. Have no recollection whatsoever of any controversy regarding this game.

I'm sure a few local radio sports shows talked about it. That is their job, to find some angle to create controversy and ratings. It doesn't mean the average Joe, or average fan gave two craps about it.

If the point is that there are some crotchety old men, that go around with their undies in a bunch 247, that were offended by Boniol kicking a FG, and that same curmudgeonly people also hated the Women's reactions, then great...maybe those people need to get a life, and respect world class achievements.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on July 25, 2019, 01:13:55 AM
And yes, I'm well aware of the, "it wasn't the goals, it was the celebration" angle.  I'm just responding to MU82's comment.

I'm also aware of it. I was just responding to another Scooper, too.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 26, 2019, 10:57:17 AM
Pia named head coach of Brazil.

https://www.fifa.com/womensolympic/news/brazil-announce-sundhage-as-new-head-coach

Gonna be interesting to watch, but TBH I don't see it working out very well.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on July 26, 2019, 01:33:37 PM
This is exactly how I feel. It wasn’t a culture of excessive, in your face, disrespectful celebrating. It was some pretty personally important goals that I find it hard to believe any of us would have just turned around and run back to our half of the pitch for the restart.

  There are classier ways to celebrate when pounding a lesser foe than what I saw. I understand the desire for individual goals but many of us who watched together felt embarassed by the lack of class we perceived as the humiliations piled on. Those might have been milestone notches but weren't remarkable against a brutally inept defense.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 27, 2019, 09:16:24 AM
Your own article says the Packers were unaware he was going for a record, and says they cooled off when they knew.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/525520/JUST-FOR-KICKS-COWBOYS-BONIOL-SETS-RECORD.html

Says a Packer even congratulated him.

What I said is fact.

I'm a big Packer fan. Despise the Cowboys. Have no recollection whatsoever of any controversy regarding this game.

I'm sure a few local radio sports shows talked about it. That is their job, to find some angle to create controversy and ratings. It doesn't mean the average Joe, or average fan gave two craps about it.

If the point is that there are some crotchety old men, that go around with their undies in a bunch 247, that were offended by Boniol kicking a FG, and that same curmudgeonly people also hated the Women's reactions, then great...maybe those people need to get a life, and respect world class achievements.

Nonsense.  They felt it was rubbing it in, they got tired of getting their ass kicked 7 straight times with so many being for major importance, and locally fans were outraged.  Whether some knew or didn’t know it was for a record is ridiculous and not important.  Did anyone know that the women’s team was going for records when the onslaught was going on?  Maybe, regardless they took the heat for it in real time and then the massively PC retribution squad came in to dismiss it while holding firm that other teams that did it were in the wrong.  Double standards

AP article...Packers seemed upset about Cowboys adding a needless score.  http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/nov/19/boniol-kicks-packers-21-6-cowboy-gets-out-of-sick/


NY Times article....https://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/20/sports/smoldering-fire-fueled-by-a-late-field-goal.html 

"Some of the Packers, most notably defensive end Reggie White and linebacker George Koonce, were upset Monday night when Dallas Coach Barry Switzer called a timeout with 20 seconds left in the game, and the Cowboys leading by 18-6, to allow Chris Boniol to kick a 37-yard field goal and tie a National Football League record for most field goals in a game."

"At the time, the Packers thought Switzer was merely rubbing their faces in yet another humiliating loss to the Cowboys, their seventh straight at Texas Stadium."

End of the day, running up the score whether it is for personal goals, World Cup records, NFL records, rubs some people the wrong way.  Let's not pretend it isn't.  The women's team didn't need to do it, that's why they took the grief in real time and post match before the virtue signaling flares went off.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 27, 2019, 09:19:45 AM
There is a difference between taking the foot off the gas and just stopping playing.

I coach basketball. When we have a big lead against an obviously inferior opponent, we don't press, we don't run-and-gun, we clear the bench, I never question even an egregiously bad officiating call (unless injury is involved or possible), etc. But I don't just tell my players to stop trying to score, to stop playing solid D, to stop trying to get every rebound, to stop hustling. I want my kids to "play right" all the time, and I don't want to encourage bad habits.

Are my kids supposed to not dive to the floor for a loose basketball or to not try to block a shot just because we are up 35?

Same with football. Sure, take the air out of it; but does the team that's way ahead not try to advance the football on the ground? Do they just take a knee every play? Do they stop trying to play defense?

Sometimes -- actually, quite often -- you can do everything in your power to try to not run it up but the blowout worsens anyway.

Heck, I even had one game where we got up by 15 fairly early and I called off our press, and the opposing coach called time-out and calmly asked me to please put the press back on because he wanted his kids to learn how to beat the press. He knew they would lose, but he wanted them to get better for later in the season -- and indeed they did, handled our press much better the second time we faced them. How about that?

I can't remember which manager said it, but there was something along the lines of: "I'll stop trying to steal a base when we're up 8 if you promise to stop trying to hit a home run when you're down 8."

My point is and you should know...I hear you are an assistant basketball coach....when you are up Big you can do many things not to rub it in and have some class.  Teams in football do still run the ball because taking a knee would be even more classless.  If the other team knows you are running three straight, the drives won’t last long.  So on and so forth.  The excuses we are giving here scream of double standards, because that is exactly what they are.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 27, 2019, 09:28:41 AM
Nonsense.  They felt it was rubbing it in, they got tired of getting their ass kicked 7 straight times with so many being for major importance, and locally fans were outraged.  Whether some knew or didn’t know it was for a record is ridiculous and not important.  Did anyone know that the women’s team was going for records when the onslaught was going on?  Maybe, regardless they took the heat for it in real time and then the massively PC retribution squad came in to dismiss it while holding firm that other teams that did it were in the wrong.  Double standards

So your evidence for “other teams that did it were in the wrong,” and therefore a double standard, is a football game from 23 years ago? 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 27, 2019, 09:42:25 AM
So your evidence for “other teams that did it were in the wrong,” and therefore a double standard, is a football game from 23 years ago?

Whether it was last month or 20 years ago, the running up the score was the key piece to it.  Whether for records or not.  I used this example because of the relevance it would have due to the number of Packer fans on this board.  I am happy to use more recent examples that accomplish the same point, but that is why I chose that game. 

For some reason when the USWMNT acts in a way that is not in line with sportsmanship  (are we allowed to use that word now dud to “man”) the squad of defenders come calling with a siren song blaring.  Yet when other examples are brought up, the defense goes away....it’s as if the USWMNT and their heroes are held to a completely different standard.  The dream team was criticized for running up the score against some teams, and should have been criticized.  The women’s team should be too, the defense of it is becoming absurd.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 27, 2019, 09:52:25 AM
But how do you know it’s a double standard?  Maybe the same people who didn’t have a problem with the USWNT didn’t have a problem with the Dream Team or the Packers.

I for one don’t have a problem with teams celebrating after scoring. I don’t think I have double standards in that regard and I doubt you could prove anyone else does either.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 27, 2019, 10:21:27 AM
Whether it was last month or 20 years ago, the running up the score was the key piece to it.  Whether for records or not.  I used this example because of the relevance it would have due to the number of Packer fans on this board.  I am happy to use more recent examples that accomplish the same point, but that is why I chose that game. 

For some reason when the USWMNT acts in a way that is not in line with sportsmanship  (are we allowed to use that word now dud to “man”) the squad of defenders come calling with a siren song blaring.  Yet when other examples are brought up, the defense goes away....it’s as if the USWMNT and their heroes are held to a completely different standard.  The dream team was criticized for running up the score against some teams, and should have been criticized.  The women’s team should be too, the defense of it is becoming absurd.

Aren't you forgetting that score differential matters in Soccer? It doesn't in those other sports examples.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 27, 2019, 10:38:18 AM
Aren't you forgetting that score differential matters in Soccer? It doesn't in those other sports examples.

Actually it does.  In the NFL it is one of the tiebreakers for the playoffs just as it is a tiebreaker for pool play in World Cup.  That said, let's get real....when you're up 8-0 in soccer there is no need to make it 9-0, 10-0, 11-0, 12-0....that goal differential is unprecedented. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 27, 2019, 10:38:57 AM
But how do you know it’s a double standard?  Maybe the same people who didn’t have a problem with the USWNT didn’t have a problem with the Dream Team or the Packers.

I for one don’t have a problem with teams celebrating after scoring. I don’t think I have double standards in that regard and I doubt you could prove anyone else does either.

Because some of those same people have been exposed in this very thread of having differing opinions on the two.  That's why.   :)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 27, 2019, 10:53:21 AM
Actually it does.  In the NFL it is one of the tiebreakers for the playoffs just as it is a tiebreaker for pool play in World Cup.  That said, let's get real....when you're up 8-0 in soccer there is no need to make it 9-0, 10-0, 11-0, 12-0....that goal differential is unprecedented.

I thought they have that weird overtime drive to break ties in the NFL?

And I agree it's unprecedented, but it remains that way because nobody else did it. If I was playing for the World Cup I might not wanna take that chance
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 27, 2019, 11:09:08 AM
But how do you know it’s a double standard?  Maybe the same people who didn’t have a problem with the USWNT didn’t have a problem with the Dream Team or the Packers.

I for one don’t have a problem with teams celebrating after scoring. I don’t think I have double standards in that regard and I doubt you could prove anyone else does either.

This is exactly the point.

I can guarantee there are critics of the USWMNT who are fine with other examples of bad sportsmanship.

Let's just all have our own opinions and agree that there's likely to be double standards/hypocrisy everywhere.

Is that acceptable?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 27, 2019, 02:01:22 PM
Pia named head coach of Brazil.

https://www.fifa.com/womensolympic/news/brazil-announce-sundhage-as-new-head-coach

Gonna be interesting to watch, but TBH I don't see it working out very well.

Agree it will be interesting. I feel like Pia is too focused on structure for her style to mesh with a more free-flowing Brazilian player style. She'll need strong buy-in from the players.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 27, 2019, 07:27:42 PM
I thought they have that weird overtime drive to break ties in the NFL?

And I agree it's unprecedented, but it remains that way because nobody else did it. If I was playing for the World Cup I might not wanna take that chance

Divisional record, conference record, etc, etc, eventually net points is the tiebreaker to see who makes the playoffs in NFL.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 30, 2019, 05:39:52 AM
  i guess that pay discrepancy between men and women soccer teams wasn't all that after all, eyn'a?  so let me get this straight though-the womens soccer team, led by whats her name, raise this big stink about pay and it turns out that they really get more??  so what was their beef really about?  hmmmmmm


  https://www.foxnews.com/sports/us-soccer-women-team-pay
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 30, 2019, 05:53:34 AM
  i guess that pay discrepancy between men and women soccer teams wasn't all that after all, eyn'a?  so let me get this straight though-the womens soccer team, led by whats her name, raise this big stink about pay and it turns out that they really get more??  so what was their beef really about?  hmmmmmm


  https://www.foxnews.com/sports/us-soccer-women-team-pay

Do you have a non foxnews link for some of us?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 30, 2019, 06:23:02 AM
Do you have a non foxnews link for some of us?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2019/07/29/us-soccer-says-womens-team-has-made-more-than-the-men/39822575/
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 30, 2019, 06:23:44 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/29/sports/soccer/us-soccer-equal-pay.html
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 30, 2019, 08:01:37 AM
So one side of a lawsuit presents data.  The other side has already said that it isn't an apples to apples comparison because it includes NWSL salaries since US Soccer manages that professional league, but doesn't manage the MLS for the men.

This is what lawsuits are for.  To sort out the arguments and see who has the better case.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 30, 2019, 08:40:19 AM
Another issue is many of the men play overseas, and often the highest paid ones. For instance, Christian Pulisic was making $1.15M per year at Dortmund and will make significantly more at Chelsea, but none of that is factored in. His salary alone projected over 10 years would more than offset the disparity. While that's a one year sample size for one player, guys like Dempsey, Donovan, Bradley, Brooks, Howard, Guzan, Yedlin, and dozens others have been earning far more than the women both in MLS and abroad over that time period.

In addition, there's the question of success mattering. In that time period, the women have won 2/3 World Cups. The men have only appeared in 2/3 World Cups and never gone beyond the last 16. So while the women are earning the maximum possible bonuses, the men aren't even top-20 in the world in bonuses earned.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on July 30, 2019, 09:20:14 AM
  i guess that pay discrepancy between men and women soccer teams wasn't all that after all, eyn'a?  so let me get this straight though-the womens soccer team, led by whats her name, raise this big stink about pay and it turns out that they really get more??  so what was their beef really about?  hmmmmmm


  https://www.foxnews.com/sports/us-soccer-women-team-pay

Context matters

https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2019/7/29/20744785/us-soccers-claims-paying-wnt-more-mnt-no-context
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Galway Eagle on July 30, 2019, 09:24:23 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2019/07/29/us-soccer-says-womens-team-has-made-more-than-the-men/39822575/

Thanks rocket appreciate it
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 30, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
Another issue is many of the men play overseas, and often the highest paid ones. For instance, Christian Pulisic was making $1.15M per year at Dortmund and will make significantly more at Chelsea, but none of that is factored in. His salary alone projected over 10 years would more than offset the disparity. While that's a one year sample size for one player, guys like Dempsey, Donovan, Bradley, Brooks, Howard, Guzan, Yedlin, and dozens others have been earning far more than the women both in MLS and abroad over that time period.

Honestly, those facts don't help the women's case against USA Soccer and could present one of the larger challenges for them in their lawsuit.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 30, 2019, 10:23:36 AM
Honestly, those facts don't help the women's case against USA Soccer and could present one of the larger challenges for them in their lawsuit.

It will come down to the courts, but I disagree. Working for club and working for country are two completely separate jobs. In the men's game, the two take each other's schedules into account, but no one would confuse the work done for Chelsea FC, LA Galaxy, Hertha Berlin, or any other club side with the work done for the USA or any other country. It is not the same. Basically, it is like having a full-time job and part-time job on the side.

This is comparing the men's side gig to all of the women's full time and side jobs. It's apples and oranges. And how many NWSL players don't even make the NT yet have their salaries counted? Further, the NWSL max salary is more than $20,000/year less than the minimum full-time MLS salary.

The women also play more NT matches than the men (largely thanks to the Olympics being a full roster event for women and not men) so it's even more apples and oranges.

For this to be an honest comparison, they have to look at the equal comparables, which would be senior men's national team appearances only, comparing that to senior women's team national team appearances only, determining how success should factor in, and then adding additional pay for club and additional country work pay for the women on top of all that.

Essentially, the USSF argument is that Megan Rapinoe, who won the Golden Ball, Golden Boot, and will likely win the FIFA Women's Best Player Award, making $245,000 in total salary is more than Christian Pulisic, who made roughly $1,400,000 in total salary last year between Dortmund and the USMNT and won't come remotely close to the men's equivalent of any of those awards. That is hard context to ignore.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 30, 2019, 10:46:30 AM
It will come down to the courts, but I disagree. Working for club and working for country are two completely separate jobs. In the men's game, the two take each other's schedules into account, but no one would confuse the work done for Chelsea FC, LA Galaxy, Hertha Berlin, or any other club side with the work done for the USA or any other country. It is not the same. Basically, it is like having a full-time job and part-time job on the side.

This is comparing the men's side gig to all of the women's full time and side jobs. It's apples and oranges. And how many NWSL players don't even make the NT yet have their salaries counted? Further, the NWSL max salary is more than $20,000/year less than the minimum full-time MLS salary.

The women also play more NT matches than the men (largely thanks to the Olympics being a full roster event for women and not men) so it's even more apples and oranges.

For this to be an honest comparison, they have to look at the equal comparables, which would be senior men's national team appearances only, comparing that to senior women's team national team appearances only, determining how success should factor in, and then adding additional pay for club and additional country work pay for the women on top of all that.

Essentially, the USSF argument is that Megan Rapinoe, who won the Golden Ball, Golden Boot, and will likely win the FIFA Women's Best Player Award, making $245,000 in total salary is more than Christian Pulisic, who made roughly $1,400,000 in total salary last year between Dortmund and the USMNT and won't come remotely close to the men's equivalent of any of those awards. That is hard context to ignore.

I agree completely that the comparison in that article are ridiculous...apples to oranges.  It's not a fair comparison.

But, the reason that the disparity between the men and women in their "regular jobs" is relevant is that it relates to opportunity cost -- which likely will be relevant in the lawsuit.  In the simplest of terms, it would be cheaper to get my son to wash your car than it would be to get me to do it; and it Mark Cuban would almost certainly charge you even more.  How much someone earns in their "regular job" will affect how much USA Soccer must pay them to get them to play on the national team.  In order to win a discrimination case, a plaintiff must establish that he/she is similarly situated to his/her comparitors.  The fact that the male soccer players make far more in their "regular jobs" will be hurdle that the women will have to get over to succeed in their lawsuit.  It gives USA Soccer an argument that the men and women are not similarly situated.

I'm not saying it's fair -- and it absolutely smacks of the systemic sexism that has been discussed at length in this thread -- but from a legal perspective it might make their lawsuit more difficult.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on July 30, 2019, 11:12:00 AM
The men should sue! Better players!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 30, 2019, 11:14:20 AM
I agree completely that the comparison in that article are ridiculous...apples to oranges.  It's not a fair comparison.

But, the reason that the disparity between the men and women in their "regular jobs" is relevant is that it relates to opportunity cost -- which likely will be relevant in the lawsuit.  In the simplest of terms, it would be cheaper to get my son to wash your car than it would be to get me to do it; and it Mark Cuban would almost certainly charge you even more.  How much someone earns in their "regular job" will affect how much USA Soccer must pay them to get them to play on the national team.  In order to win a discrimination case, a plaintiff must establish that he/she is similarly situated to his/her comparitors.  The fact that the male soccer players make far more in their "regular jobs" will be hurdle that the women will have to get over to succeed in their lawsuit.  It gives USA Soccer an argument that the men and women are not similarly situated.

I'm not saying it's fair -- and it absolutely smacks of the systemic sexism that has been discussed at length in this thread -- but from a legal perspective it might make their lawsuit more difficult.

I think in 99 percent of instances you're 100 percent correct, but representing one's nation in something like a World Cup isn't analogous to 99+ percent of situations.
It's not as if USA soccer needs to compete with others for American players' services in international play (Jozy Altidore isn't suddenly becoming Panamanian if they offer him more money) nor is compensation really a determining factor in whether a player chooses to play for their national team.
And most professional men's soccer leagues (MLS an exception) take "international breaks" during national team competitions, so there's no opportunity cost for the player who chooses to miss time from his club team to play for country.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on July 30, 2019, 11:17:40 AM
Scoop: Where futbol meets football.  Foosball on deck.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 30, 2019, 12:17:43 PM
I think in 99 percent of instances you're 100 percent correct, but representing one's nation in something like a World Cup isn't analogous to 99+ percent of situations.
It's not as if USA soccer needs to compete with others for American players' services in international play (Jozy Altidore isn't suddenly becoming Panamanian if they offer him more money) nor is compensation really a determining factor in whether a player chooses to play for their national team.
And most professional men's soccer leagues (MLS an exception) take "international breaks" during national team competitions, so there's no opportunity cost for the player who chooses to miss time from his club team to play for country.

I think that you might very well be correct.  That's a great argument, and I'm sure the women will make it.  And it might actually carry the day.  But, the counter argument is also a valid argument -- from a legal perspective, anyway.

And of course there is opportunity cost.  Resting for a couple months (or recovering from nagging injuries) might be quite attractive to someone who makes a lot of money in a "regular job."  That is weighed against playing for the national team.  It's not the same as "I'll lose x dollars if I play..." but it's still opportunity cost.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 30, 2019, 01:23:20 PM
Seems relevant:

Grant Wahl @GrantWahl
USWNT coach Jill Ellis is stepping down. First reported by @JeffKassouf, have confirmed independently.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on July 30, 2019, 01:58:44 PM
Thanks rocket appreciate it

just making sure there is balance 8-)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 30, 2019, 04:47:23 PM
The USSF is propping up the women’s pro league to a degree, they don’t have to with MLS, so of course their argument is they are paying.  Put another way, would the pro league exist without the USSF backing?  Probably not as these have failed before multiple times.  Same reason the WNBA doesn’t exist without the NBA.

 I am not surprised at all they are arguing this should be part of the equation because they are paying for those 22 players via a subsidy.  That money isn’t coming from somewhere else, so why wouldn’t it be counted.  Whether the courts agree...who knows.  If the USSF pulled the plug on NWSL since the money “shouldn’t count”, I’m guessing folks wouldn’t be too happy without either.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 30, 2019, 05:15:44 PM
The USSF is propping up the women’s pro league to a degree, they don’t have to with MLS, so of course their argument is they are paying.  Put another way, would the pro league exist without the USSF backing?  Probably not as these have failed before multiple times.  Same reason the WNBA doesn’t exist without the NBA.

 I am not surprised at all they are arguing this should be part of the equation because they are paying for those 22 players via a subsidy.  That money isn’t coming from somewhere else, so why wouldn’t it be counted.  Whether the courts agree...who knows.  If the USSF pulled the plug on NWSL since the money “shouldn’t count”, I’m guessing folks wouldn’t be too happy without either.

Yeah, except this makes no sense.
Whatever money the NWSL players receive as compensation through the USSF is for their play in NWSL competitions. It is entirely separate from their compensation for national team events, which is the issue here.
Beyond that, it gives only total numbers, ignoring the fact that during the time frame cited, the women's team played 47 more matches than the men. I mean, yeah, a person getting minimum wage will earn more than someone making $50 an hour if he/she works 10 times as many hours, but that doesn't make the minimum wage employee better paid.

Including the club compensation is a clumsy and obvious sleight-of-hand that all sides  - including the men's team - are calling out for the nonsense that it is.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 30, 2019, 10:14:53 PM
Yeah, except this makes no sense.
Whatever money the NWSL players receive as compensation through the USSF is for their play in NWSL competitions. It is entirely separate from their compensation for national team events, which is the issue here.
Beyond that, it gives only total numbers, ignoring the fact that during the time frame cited, the women's team played 47 more matches than the men. I mean, yeah, a person getting minimum wage will earn more than someone making $50 an hour if he/she works 10 times as many hours, but that doesn't make the minimum wage employee better paid.

Including the club compensation is a clumsy and obvious sleight-of-hand that all sides  - including the men's team - are calling out for the nonsense that it is.

Is a condition of their contract to play in the NWSL for which they are compensated?  If so, it should count.

No different than when I hire Patrick Mahomes to do a commercial for us, he is also doing appearances, interviews, etc and compensated for all of it, even if the lion share of the value is tied to the commercial.  Now, I don’t know if the contract requires they play in the NWSL, but if it does the yes it should count. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 30, 2019, 10:44:42 PM
Is a condition of their contract to play in the NWSL for which they are compensated?  If so, it should count.

No different than when I hire Patrick Mahomes to do a commercial for us, he is also doing appearances, interviews, etc and compensated for all of it, even if the lion share of the value is tied to the commercial.  Now, I don’t know if the contract requires they play in the NWSL, but if it does the yes it should count.

Are you working for the Chiefs now and paying his NFL salary? Because otherwise this is a stupid false equivalency.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 30, 2019, 10:55:03 PM
Are you working for the Chiefs now and paying his NFL salary? Because otherwise this is a stupid false equivalency.

Nope, but athletes and celebs can get paid to do endorsements as professionals.  Nothing false or stupid about it at all, just reality of sports and celebrity advertising that happens every day in this world.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 30, 2019, 11:06:14 PM
In each season, teams receive a salary cap that limits their total spending on players. The salaries of allocated players from the United States, Canadian, and (formerly) Mexican national teams are paid by their respective federations instead of their NWSL clubs, and do not count against their club's salary cap.

If this is true, per the CNET article, then why on earth would the USSF NOT be allowed to count it?  If the federation is paying their salaries and not the NWSL, they absolutely should be able to count it.  The money isn't growing on trees and coming out of thin air.  It's a win for the women to earn extra money, a chance to give the women's game more exposure here in the States, and a move by the USSF knowing that they need to prop it up (just like NBA with WNBA) in order for it to survive on its own. Until the women's game is self sustainable, that's the deal.  It seems like some are missing that overall point.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 31, 2019, 07:26:43 AM
It shouldn’t be “allowed to count” because it isn’t an apples to apples comparison. It isn’t equal pay for equal work because the women are working MORE to earn their pay.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: StillAWarrior on July 31, 2019, 08:17:25 AM
It shouldn’t be “allowed to count” because it isn’t an apples to apples comparison. It isn’t equal pay for equal work because the women are working MORE to earn their pay.

I'll argue for a slightly semantic difference from what you said.  Sure, go ahead and count it.  But, what he hell difference does it make?  You can't really get credit for equal pay when you're paying one group more...but it's for working two jobs.

And for the record, I'm still fairly neutral on the overall issue because I feel like I don't have enough information.  I've seen both sides' "talking points" and cherry-picked information.  This most recent information released that includes money paid for their league play in addition to the USWNT pay really doesn't help them much and makes them seem desperate.  From my perspective -- as someone who's not sure which side is right -- it hurt their credibility.

That said, as someone who is probably someone who is far more familiar with how discrimination litigation works than most...I can see this is a strategic move.  It muddies the water.  They are probably trying to actually make the case that men to women, overall, is an apples to oranges comparison.  That could be helpful to USA Soccer in the litigation.  The more people who support the women who start saying that it's apples to oranges, the better as far as USA Soccer is concerned.  Their response, "Exactly."
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 08:48:20 AM
It shouldn’t be “allowed to count” because it isn’t an apples to apples comparison. It isn’t equal pay for equal work because the women are working MORE to earn their pay.

Define equal work.  This is where that argument always dies regardless of the profession or job.  Are the men not playing in leagues when not on the national team? So how is it extra work?

End of the day, the great irony here is the NWSL, on the heels of two failed leagues, was created to HELP grow the women’s game and to compensate women more then they were being compensated is now somehow a laborious thing that if the USSF wasn’t propping up there would be no women’s league, no extra money and the every 4 year cycle of “look how good we are” would run its course with no momentum.  The entire point of the NWSL is to build sustainment, and this BENEFITS the women’s players today and more importantly, for the future.

The women have to play anyway and train, etc, the fact that only the NWSL (aka USSF) is the only entity that is willing to do that should be counted and seen as a plus.  What’s the alternative?  No league, no extra pay, no games, no exposure?  Sure, great idea.  So it’s not extra work as the men are playing in MLS or overseas, just as the women are.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on July 31, 2019, 08:59:55 AM
Define equal work.  This is where that argument always dies regardless of the profession or job.  Are the men not playing in leagues when not on the national team? So how is it extra work?


Because they are being paid more by a different organization to do that work.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 31, 2019, 09:02:02 AM
Nope, but athletes and celebs can get paid to do endorsements as professionals.  Nothing false or stupid about it at all, just reality of sports and celebrity advertising that happens every day in this world.

So, do the Chiefs count what Mahomes earns via endorsements as part of the salary they're paying him? Should endorsement money earned by Megan Rapione count as compensation from the national team?
I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here, other than it's utterly specious.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:16:37 AM

Because they are being paid more by a different organization to do that work.

Key is different organization.  MLS or others are paying more because they generate more revenues and actually stay in business.  Two women’s leagues have already failed, and the current one (NWSL) exists only because of the USSF.  I’m sorry that economics keeps kicking into reality here.

Isn’t part of the equal work to bring in the crowds, create a product the public wants to buy consistently, not just once every four years, etc, etc?  This is why the equal work argument is often flawed....the production or output of work matters, which includes growing the game, fannies in the seats consistently, tv ratings consistently, etc.  Care to take a guess at NWSL attendance and ratings vs MLS?

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:21:52 AM
So, do the Chiefs count what Mahomes earns via endorsements as part of the salary they're paying him? Should endorsement money earned by Megan Rapione count as compensation from the national team?
I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here, other than it's utterly specious.

Nope, they don’t directly, though indirectly sports teams do....it’s the pitch Anthony Davis got from Lebron to come to Lakers....Davis will be part of Space Jam2 and make way more money in endorsements in LA then elsewhere.

But that aside, as you know the Chiefs don’t count it, but the Chiefs also aren’t contractually requiring him to do it either.  If I am understanding correctly, the women’s US team need a place to pay when not on the US team, and that place is NWSL for which they are paid by USSF as a result of them being on the USWNT...that’s the difference.  I suppose the women could say they refuse to pay for NWSL...the what?  Where are they going to play?  What mechanism exists, especially in light of the current mechanism only exists because of the USSF propping up a league that isn’t able to stand up by itself?

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 31, 2019, 09:39:09 AM
I suppose the women could say they refuse to pay for NWSL...the what?  Where are they going to play?  What mechanism exists, especially in light of the current mechanism only exists because of the USSF propping up a league that isn’t able to stand up by itself?

There are professional women's leagues in Europe.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 31, 2019, 09:50:55 AM
There are professional women's leagues in Europe.

Not exactly solving the equal pay debate by going overseas.

https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/how-much-are-womens-super-league-footballers-paid-compared/p2h8oe98nzjh1a9bqr04pcuu5

"Some Premier League players earning more in one day than most WSL players earn in a year" 

The pay discrepancy in the US is far from ideal or fair, but its a lot closer to fair than some of the European systems, which are also attempting to reduce the number of foreign players in their Women's system in an attempt to boost their own countries international abilities (a system that I would be in favor of the MLS adopting).
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on July 31, 2019, 10:15:43 AM
Not exactly solving the equal pay debate by going overseas.

https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/how-much-are-womens-super-league-footballers-paid-compared/p2h8oe98nzjh1a9bqr04pcuu5

"Some Premier League players earning more in one day than most WSL players earn in a year" 

The pay discrepancy in the US is far from ideal or fair, but its a lot closer to fair than some of the European systems, which are also attempting to reduce the number of foreign players in their Women's system in an attempt to boost their own countries international abilities (a system that I would be in favor of the MLS adopting).

Nobody is having an "equal pay" debate over club compensation, though.
The issue is over national team compensation, and the ham-fisted attempts by the USSF to roll club compensation into national team compensation.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on July 31, 2019, 10:27:27 AM
Nope, but athletes and celebs can get paid to do endorsements as professionals.  Nothing false or stupid about it at all, just reality of sports and celebrity advertising that happens every day in this world.

You do not pay his primary salary. Your pathetic attempt at a comparison is completely invalid. False? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Just stop.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 31, 2019, 10:32:28 AM
Nobody is having an "equal pay" debate over club compensation, though.
The issue is over national team compensation, and the ham-fisted attempts by the USSF to roll club compensation into national team compensation.

The question is whether or not it's fair to include the NWSL costs.  If the USSF said that they would pay the USWNT exactly the same as the USMNT, but pulled financial support for the NLSW, it would fold within 18 months. That's not what the members of the USWNT want.  They want better USWNT pay with continued NWSL support, and because of that the increase in USWNT pay will be less than they want.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Its DJOver on July 31, 2019, 01:21:23 PM
Expansion approved.  Wonder where the extra slots will go.

https://www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/news/fifa-council-unanimously-approves-the-expansion-of-the-fifa-women-s-world-cup-to
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:48:04 PM
Expansion approved.  Wonder where the extra slots will go.

https://www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/news/fifa-council-unanimously-approves-the-expansion-of-the-fifa-women-s-world-cup-to

To some super qualified teams for sure
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:49:59 PM
You do not pay his primary salary. Your pathetic attempt at a comparison is completely invalid. False? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Just stop.

That again, wasn’t the point.  The USWNT is paid to do many things, including play for the NWSL...so it should count.  If I hire. Mahomes, Manning, Prescott, Luck, Donald, whomever, to do a commercial, I’m paying them that AND to do other things....same as the ladies are paid to do other things.

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:51:41 PM
Nobody is having an "equal pay" debate over club compensation, though.
The issue is over national team compensation, and the ham-fisted attempts by the USSF to roll club compensation into national team compensation.

Ham fisted....more like economic reality.  But by all means, dissolve the NWSL and let the ladies compete like the dudes do when not on the USMNT....see how that works out. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on July 31, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
There are professional women's leagues in Europe.

Go for it....sounds ideal.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on August 02, 2019, 06:33:46 AM
When you have to post four times in a row, you've lost the thread and gone full Chicos.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on August 02, 2019, 08:43:44 AM
When you have to post four times in a row, you've lost the thread and gone full Chicos.

He forgot to log out and on of his other personas.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on August 02, 2019, 09:57:11 AM
I was out having a beer with a couple of friends last night. One of them is the biggest Panthers/NFL fan I know.

He took a quick look at his phone, said, "Yes!" and then handed it to one of the other guys. He had just gotten word that the USWNT would be playing S. Korea in Charlotte in October as part of their "World Victory Tour," and he and one of my other NFL-loving buddies spent the next 15 minutes looking up ticket information.

I won't go because I don't like soccer, but it was interesting seeing this reaction from two huge Panthers fans who obviously do like soccer and love this USWNT.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on August 02, 2019, 10:52:58 AM
I was out having a beer with a couple of friends last night. One of them is the biggest Panthers/NFL fan I know.

He took a quick look at his phone, said, "Yes!" and then handed it to one of the other guys. He had just gotten word that the USWNT would be playing S. Korea in Charlotte in October as part of their "World Victory Tour," and he and one of my other NFL-loving buddies spent the next 15 minutes looking up ticket information.

I won't go because I don't like soccer, but it was interesting seeing this reaction from two huge Panthers fans who obviously do like soccer and love this USWNT.

Hang the USWNT yard lights!
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on August 02, 2019, 11:28:14 AM
Hang the USWNT yard lights!

Made me chuckle.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 03, 2019, 01:39:46 PM
I was out having a beer with a couple of friends last night. One of them is the biggest Panthers/NFL fan I know.

He took a quick look at his phone, said, "Yes!" and then handed it to one of the other guys. He had just gotten word that the USWNT would be playing S. Korea in Charlotte in October as part of their "World Victory Tour," and he and one of my other NFL-loving buddies spent the next 15 minutes looking up ticket information.

I won't go because I don't like soccer, but it was interesting seeing this reaction from two huge Panthers fans who obviously do like soccer and love this USWNT.

Tickets here in 2 days are only $40 and a ton of them on sale. The men's team's last 5 games here sold out the Rose Bowl.  Sure hope Charlotte sells out, not surprised Panther fans would be looking to cheer on a champion for once.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 03, 2019, 01:40:19 PM
When you have to post four times in a row, you've lost the thread and gone full Chicos.

I am courteous and take the time to respond to each ridiculous comment from you and others. 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: brewcity77 on August 05, 2019, 09:13:37 AM
I am courteous and take the time to respond to each ridiculous comment from you and others.

And you completely missed the point. I'll try again to help. When you've lost the thread, when it gets away and moves on from your ability to keep up, it's okay to let things go, to not respond to each comment. You're not doing anyone a courtesy by refusing to let things go.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Billy Hoyle on August 05, 2019, 09:58:58 AM
Tickets here in 2 days are only $40 and a ton of them on sale. The men's team's last 5 games here sold out the Rose Bowl.  Sure hope Charlotte sells out, not surprised Panther fans would be looking to cheer on a champion for once.

How many of those were against Mexico with 70k Mexican fans?

The USMNT couldn’t sell out their Gold Cup or COPA games.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 05, 2019, 11:01:48 AM
Tickets here in 2 days are only $40 and a ton of them on sale. The men's team's last 5 games here sold out the Rose Bowl.  Sure hope Charlotte sells out, not surprised Panther fans would be looking to cheer on a champion for once.

You sure about that?
According to the the Society for American Soccer History, the last five games at the Rose Bowl were:
10/10/15 vs Mexico, 93,723
6/25/11 vs Mexico. 93,420
2/2/02 vs Costa Rica, 14,432
1/27/02 vs El Salvador, 31,628
1/19/02 vs Cuba, 31,244

http://www.ussoccerhistory.org/
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: jesmu84 on August 05, 2019, 11:15:20 AM
You sure about that?
According to the the Society for American Soccer History, the last five games at the Rose Bowl were:
10/10/15 vs Mexico, 93,723
6/25/11 vs Mexico. 93,420
2/2/02 vs Costa Rica, 14,432
1/27/02 vs El Salvado, 31,628
1/19/02 vs Cuba, 31,244

http://www.ussoccerhistory.org/

I'd also guess that the reason they sold out wasn't because of the USMNT, but rather their opponents
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 05, 2019, 11:19:27 AM
I'd also guess that the reason they sold out wasn't because of the USMNT, but rather their opponents

Are you suggesting there might be a large presence of El Tri fans in the greater Los Angeles area?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 05, 2019, 12:12:23 PM
How many of those were against Mexico with 70k Mexican fans?

The USMNT couldn’t sell out their Gold Cup or COPA games.

Many are from the opposing team, no doubt....which again goes to the argument that the men’s game has many countries that are good and people want to see, not the case with the women’s game.  The ticket prices are also much much much higher.

The women drew 37K on Saturday, this AFTER coming off a World Cup title.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 05, 2019, 12:13:10 PM
And you completely missed the point. I'll try again to help. When you've lost the thread, when it gets away and moves on from your ability to keep up, it's okay to let things go, to not respond to each comment. You're not doing anyone a courtesy by refusing to let things go.

You mean like you are doing with this post?  Lol
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on August 05, 2019, 01:41:47 PM
You sure about that?
According to the the Society for American Soccer History, the last five games at the Rose Bowl were:
10/10/15 vs Mexico, 93,723
6/25/11 vs Mexico. 93,420
2/2/02 vs Costa Rica, 14,432
1/27/02 vs El Salvador, 31,628
1/19/02 vs Cuba, 31,244

http://www.ussoccerhistory.org/

Wait ... are you claiming that chicos fibbed to make a point?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 05, 2019, 02:40:15 PM
Many are from the opposing team, no doubt....which again goes to the argument that the men’s game has many countries that are good and people want to see, not the case with the women’s game.  The ticket prices are also much much much higher.

The women drew 37K on Saturday, this AFTER coming off a World Cup title.

So, what you're saying is that the USWNT outdraws the USMNT (for a meaningless exhibition game, no less) in games that don't include Mexico as an opponent.
This helps your argument how?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Jay Bee on August 05, 2019, 07:55:46 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/50053/us-soccer-releases-fact-sheet-showing-womens-team-ashe-schow
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 05, 2019, 08:52:36 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/50053/us-soccer-releases-fact-sheet-showing-womens-team-ashe-schow

This already has been debunked.
Try to keep up.

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2019/7/30/20747081/uswnt-equal-pay-lawsuit-us-soccer-carlos-cordeiro-letter
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on August 05, 2019, 08:53:06 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/50053/us-soccer-releases-fact-sheet-showing-womens-team-ashe-schow

you you you, you misogynist you,  you you
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on August 05, 2019, 08:55:31 PM
This already has been debunked.
Try to keep up.

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2019/7/30/20747081/uswnt-equal-pay-lawsuit-us-soccer-carlos-cordeiro-letter

boy, that didn't take long...both articles came out on the same day
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 05, 2019, 09:01:41 PM
you you you, you misogynist you,  you you

Well, that's certainly one explanation for someone being strongly opposed to men and women being paid equitably.
For the USSF, it's simply a business matter. They want to pay as little as they can get away with.
I suspect some are just surly that some of the USWNT members won't (gasp!) shut up and stick to sports.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 05, 2019, 10:04:04 PM
So, what you're saying is that the USWNT outdraws the USMNT (for a meaningless exhibition game, no less) in games that don't include Mexico as an opponent.
This helps your argument how?

Nice try.  Women just won the World Cup, they are adored and heroes to thoughts and prayers Mike, and 37k showed up with tickets given away to some and on average only $40.

If the men won the World Cup, do you think their first event after would raw 37k regardless if the game was meaningless and the tickets only $40?  Is that your argument?

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 05, 2019, 10:08:47 PM
You sure about that?
According to the the Society for American Soccer History, the last five games at the Rose Bowl were:
10/10/15 vs Mexico, 93,723
6/25/11 vs Mexico. 93,420
2/2/02 vs Costa Rica, 14,432
1/27/02 vs El Salvador, 31,628
1/19/02 vs Cuba, 31,244

http://www.ussoccerhistory.org/

My error, the last five games at the Rose Bowl sold out...I went to three of them....not all involved the US men’s team.  Some involved LA Galaxy and European powers....again, because men’s soccer is just fundamentally more popular by huge factors....which is why they get paid more....which is why this argument remains ridiculous.  But yes, I said US men’s team at Rose Bowl, and that was not correct.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 05, 2019, 11:19:25 PM
My error, the last five games at the Rose Bowl sold out...I went to three of them....not all involved the US men’s team.  Some involved LA Galaxy and European powers....again, because men’s soccer is just fundamentally more popular by huge factors....which is why they get paid more....which is why this argument remains ridiculous.  But yes, I said US men’s team at Rose Bowl, and that was not correct.

Got it. Because Manchester United and FC Barcelona is are more popular than the Orlando Pride and Chicago Red Stars, the USMNT deserves to be paid more than the USWNT ... regardless of how much revenue the national teams produce.
That's some iron-clad logic there.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on August 05, 2019, 11:27:09 PM
Thoughts and prayers for chicos' logic.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on August 06, 2019, 07:55:38 AM
Thoughts and prayers for chicos' logic.

You're making the assumption it ever existed in the first place.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 06, 2019, 10:09:13 PM
Thoughts and prayers for chicos' logic.
Thoughts and prayers from the atheist that doesn’t care about millions of innocents lost each year but like clockwork comes out on this stuff.....logic you were saying?  What logic do you have?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 06, 2019, 10:10:12 PM
Got it. Because Manchester United and FC Barcelona is are more popular than the Orlando Pride and Chicago Red Stars, the USMNT deserves to be paid more than the USWNT ... regardless of how much revenue the national teams produce.
That's some iron-clad logic there.

Women’s team won world title and drew 37k the other day with local entities giving away tickets for free begging people to go.

Not logic, just actual facts. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on August 06, 2019, 10:31:44 PM
Thoughts and prayers from the atheist that doesn’t care about millions of innocents lost each year but like clockwork comes out on this stuff.....logic you were saying?  What logic do you have?

Logic? I could go into the many ways you twist your "all life is precious" rhetoric to not include millions whose lives you don't give two chits about, but I don't want to bore our fellow Scoopers.

Otherwise, obviously you missed my point -- thoughts and prayers after every shooting mean about as much as thoughts and prayers from an atheist about anything.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 06, 2019, 10:34:14 PM
Logic? I could go into the many ways you twist your "all life is precious" rhetoric to not include millions whose lives you don't give two chits about, but I don't want to bore our fellow Scoopers.

Otherwise, obviously you missed my point -- thoughts and prayers after every shooting mean about as much as thoughts and prayers from an atheist about anything.

Your thoughts and prayers truly don’t mean crap.  Real thoughts and prayers from people who care and believe in them....do.  That’s the difference.

Have a blessed evening
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on August 07, 2019, 06:30:33 AM
Your thoughts and prayers truly don’t mean crap.  Real thoughts and prayers from people who care and believe in them....do.  That’s the difference.

Have a blessed evening
Tell that to the people who are preparing to bury their loved ones.  Or did you forget to pray for no mass shootings the day they happened? 
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: MU82 on August 07, 2019, 08:01:18 AM
You try to be a fact-based guy, chicos. If you can provide scientific evidence that "thoughts and prayers" solved anything ever, I will tell everybody I see Merry Christmas this Dec. 25.

P.S. Neither the bible nor a world leader mandating that Merry Christmas be said qualify as scientific evidence.

Meanwhile ...

How 'bout that Rapinoe and the rest of our great USWNT!

Interesting kinda-related story:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/456467-montana-man-charged-for-assaulting-13-year-old-who-was-allegedly

Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 07, 2019, 08:50:00 AM
Tell that to the people who are preparing to bury their loved ones.  Or did you forget to pray for no mass shootings the day they happened?

Tell that to the over 2000 Americans killed by people not legally allowed to be here in the last two years.  Ahh, logic again.

Your logic is if we only banned these things these people would be alive, yet if we also enforced our laws those 2000 Americans would also be alive because they couldn’t be killed by someone that isn’t here.  But alas not a peep for those kids, moms, dads, etc, who lost their lives.  So telling who’s life matters and by whom it was extinguished.  So telling how we care about some innocent lives lost, bit don’t give a rip when others are lost.  So telling.
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Cheeks on August 07, 2019, 08:52:12 AM
You try to be a fact-based guy, chicos. If you can provide scientific evidence that "thoughts and prayers" solved anything ever, I will tell everybody I see Merry Christmas this Dec. 25.

P.S. Neither the bible nor a world leader mandating that Merry Christmas be said qualify as scientific evidence.

Meanwhile ...

How 'bout that Rapinoe and the rest of our great USWNT!

Interesting kinda-related story:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/456467-montana-man-charged-for-assaulting-13-year-old-who-was-allegedly

Faith is a powerful thing that is unprovable.  That’s fine. But since you don’t believe and mock those of us that do, aren’t you being an intolerant prick in the process?  You know that answer, but your hypocrisy won’t allow you to publicly admit it.

Have a blessed day.  I’ll pray for you.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qtUSV6tuL.jpg)
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: 4everwarriors on August 07, 2019, 08:53:53 AM
Logic? I could go into the many ways you twist your "all life is precious" rhetoric to not include millions whose lives you don't give two chits about, but I don't want to bore our fellow Scoopers.

Otherwise, obviously you missed my point -- thoughts and prayers after every shooting mean about as much as thoughts and prayers from an atheist about anything.



Try sum ExLax, Nads. U'll feel sew much bedder, hey?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: rocket surgeon on August 07, 2019, 08:59:09 AM
82 hasn't hit his quota on thread lockdowns today yet?
Title: Re: Womens Soccer Championship.
Post by: Pakuni on August 07, 2019, 09:03:00 AM
Women’s team won world title and drew 37k the other day with local entities giving away tickets for free begging people to go.

Not logic, just actual facts. 

Thanks

Women's team made more money since 2015 than the men.
Despite this, Cheeks believes they still deserve to be paid less ... apparently because a) they're women and b) professional men's soccer teams from other countries are popular.
These are the facts, and they defy logic.

And seriously, why must you insert your politics into every thread? Literally nobody here cares about your views on immigration.