Year 2 (Archie), Year 5 Wojo

[connie]

Frankly I think this board has been pretty reasonable given the a) consistent underperformance of coaches and players and/or b) failure to bring in the players necessary to perform at a regular tournament level.  I'm not sharpening the pitchfork for 1 early season road loss, but whatever patience I had is pretty much gone.

[Warrior of Law]

Not making the NCAA in year 5, after all of the resources that have been expended, would be huge disappointment and it would officially become a very warm seat.  It's a results business, and he has not produced any results.

[4everwarriors]

If the fish smell, blame da fisherman, hey?

[Wojoman]

Yep! Here we go, year 5 under Wojo and still the same old $h!t. Late rotations, zero fight, the list goes on.

MU Scoop  is a good site to express our praise and criticism of the MU Golden Eagles.  However, at the end of the game, I'm proud to have Wojo represent MU  and I'm even more proud  of the fine group of student athletes he has successfully recruited – win or lose. And we will win!!

[Silent Verbal]

MU Scoop  is a good site to express our praise and criticism of the MU Golden Eagles.  However, at the end of the game, I'm proud to have Wojo represent MU  and I'm even more proud  of the fine group of student athletes he has successfully recruited – win or lose. And we will win!!

Teal?

[WhiteTrash]

MU Scoop  is a good site to express our praise and criticism of the MU Golden Eagles.  However, at the end of the game, I'm proud to have Wojo represent MU  and I'm even more proud  of the fine group of student athletes he has successfully recruited – win or lose. And we will win!!

I like the sentiment but is better suited for DIII athletics not a university that spends $10MM on basketball and asks patrons to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars per year for tickets.

[jesmu84]

I like the sentiment but is better suited for DIII athletics not a university that spends $10MM on basketball and asks patrons to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars per year for tickets.

No one is forcing you to buy tickets. Or donate to the university

[Class71]

Points:

1) Expectations were high this summer with no hard data to support those expectations. Indiana is our first data point and it was ugly. Kansas, Kansas State, Buffalo, and Wisconsin are going to be likely losses before BE play if something doesn't change quickly.

2) Marcus is a great shooter if he is unchallenged. He is not a point guard. When he drives against top teams he has no plan so he tries the impossible by trying to split double teams rather than dumping off to an outlet. That has been a consistent pattern of not thinking of options in advance. Problem is we have no obvious alternative.

2) Hausers are the most rounded and reliable players on the team. Without them it would be even worse. Glad we have them.

3) Morrow, Bailey and Chartouny continue to contribute little and are soft.  Will they come around is questionable.

4) Theo, Cain, Sacar and Heft have occasional contributions but how much will they improve? Can they compete against top twenty-five teams?

5) Wojo clearly identified the problems after the game. Question is can he get true buy in from Marcus that hero ball does not win games? Can Wojo develop some sort of speed and toughness from players listed in 3 and 4 above? Can he make the tough decisions if hero ball continues?

The pre-season results will be a very good indicator of where we are going. I hope for the best but I need to manage expections given what I have seen to date.

[jesmu84]

Don't ever go to an SEC football board then. Those fans expect to win, and when their teams don't win, or even don't win by enough, the boards are just like ours, if not worse.

I think fans expecting to win is normal. The most active voices here are the most patient, but that's not necessarily representative of the full fan base.

That's a joke, right?

[Floorslapper]

That's a joke, right?

Well...take a look at the daily post averages for TAMU, Tower, MU 82 - they are some of the most prolific posters here. Sultan, Wades and Brew also have a long-standing track record of
Active contribution here. They’ve all been largely pro-Wojo the past 4 years...

Nothing wrong with that, but, the original point made does have validity.

[skianth16]

Well...take a look at the daily post averages for TAMU, Tower, MU 82 - they are some of the most prolific posters here. Sultan, Wades and Brew also have a long-standing track record of
Active contribution here. They’ve all been largely pro-Wojo the past 4 years...

Nothing wrong with that, but, the original point made does have validity.

Glad someone understood what I was saying

[NorthernDancerColt]

Here are some observations others have said already. But my keys:

Their coach better prepared than ours.

Markus is a bad PG. They knew it. Prepped for it. Told us beforehand. And did it. On Wojo.

Not ready for stiff competition. They weren’t Michigan good but Jay’s team wasn’t ready either.

We have a lot of new faces trying to work it out. Easy to mask against cupcakes. On Wojo to figure out.

We have to get better fast before our quality win potential dwindles. BE won’t have many this year. We could easily have 6 losses at end of noncon if Wojo doesn’t get things together.

We have talent. Wojo needs to get us together sooner rather than later.

This is how a smart adult posts. Constructively critical without being cliched and derogatory.

[WarriorDad]

Points:

1) Expectations were high this summer with no hard data to support those expectations. Indiana is our first data point and it was ugly. Kansas, Kansas State, Buffalo, and Wisconsin are going to be likely losses before BE play if something doesn't change quickly.

Slow down.  Buffalo is not a likely loss.  Nor is Wisconsin or Kansas State.  They all could be, but let's hold off saying likely. All three are home games, I'll take the Warriors.

[NorthernDancerColt]

Glad someone understood what I was saying

I get it completely. People are frustrated and have a right to be. I took the lack of competing so hard I got physically sick to my stomach. I don't have a family, so sometimes I live and die with MU hoops, and that is not normal. Don't want people to mistake my belief in Wojo for being content with losing. The guy is a winner. This has got to be killing him. Despite how great he seems to have it, with a clear reciprocal love between him and his MU admin,  and the love of and  stabilizing support from his immediate family and his Duke bloodline, not to mention his hefty salary, I would guess that the days immediately after a tough beat down are immeasurably hard for him. The guy is synonymous with fight and will.  By all accounts he loves it here. He wants to succeed HERE. Like his mentor has said...the great thing about college basketball is that the season is long, opportunities abound. Look for our guys to respond in a big way.

[Herman Cain]

I've seen enough to judge. Wojo ain't got it.

Unfortunately, Wojo is an expert at corporate brown nosing . The bromance with Lovell is alive and well. The Big East is down this year so Wojo can still squeeze out a record above .500. That will get him another couple years contract extension.

What MU needs is for Wojo to get to the 20 win mark again this year which would be possible if the team got hit in the BET. That should actually make him an attractive candidate when the annual coaching carousel comes around. He can then latch onto a power 5 football school program that has fallen on hard times and lock in another long term contract. Buzz was smart enough to do that and I am sure Wojo is smart enough to do the same thing.

[NorthernDancerColt]

Unfortunately, Wojo is an expert at corporate brown nosing . The bromance with Lovell is alive and well. The Big East is down this year so Wojo can still squeeze out a record above .500. That will get him another couple years contract extension.

What MU needs is for Wojo to get to the 20 win mark again this year which would be possible if the team got hit in the BET. That should actually make him an attractive candidate when the annual coaching carousel comes around. He can then latch onto a power 5 football school program that has fallen on hard times and lock in another long term contract. Buzz was smart enough to do that and I am sure Wojo is smart enough to do the same thing.

Since you're on the topic of what MU needs.....tell us exactly who you  think would be a genuine and authentic person to hire, because you are clearly calling out Wojo's authenticity. We have enough armchair jocks and wannabe coaches here, now we apparently have armchair headhunters too. When I look at Coach Wojo, I never see a guy mailing anything in. I don't see an azz-kissing, networking con artist like you describe. I see a genuine, hard-working guy who sees himself as a proud steward of an historic program.

[1SE]

Listen, I get it, like everyone else on this board (except the Bucky trolls of course), I want Wojo and MU to succeed, very much so. And I get it with Wojo, he has all the right optics, and I understand the deep longing from all of us that he’s our Coach K who leads us to decades of prominence and stability.

 Wojo has done *just enough* in his time here to let people keep believing that dream. But I’ve said it before here, I don’t think there is a single person on this board for whom Wojo has *exceeded* expectations, at any point (possibly with the exception of Tower who seems to think that despite the millions we spend on MBB we shouldn’t have any expectations higher than being the best college team in Milwaukee).

But here’s the thing. Where do we want this program to be? Where do the BOT want it to be? Scenario 1. If it’s just making the NCAA every few years and running a clean program then a guy that never exceeds expectations can probably do that. Give Wojo an extension for life.

Scenario 2. But if we want to be an elite program, if we want to win a national title, we need a guy who can either a) recruit the absolute best talent in the country (Cal, Self) or exceed expectations (Wright or, dare I say it, Ryan). In 5 years Wojo has shown neither.

This season is the test. If we aren’t a 5 seed or better in March (or make a deep run as a higher seed), Wojo will have definitively  shown that he’s a scenario 1 guy. If we’re fine with that level of mediocrity, sign him for life. If not, then there’s no reason to keep him another year. It’s the sunk cost fallacy. The sooner we cut loose the sooner we’ll get closer to finding the coach that takes us to scenario 2.

[Herman Cain]

Since you're on the topic of what MU needs.....tell us exactly who you  think would be a genuine and authentic person to hire, because you are clearly calling out Wojo's authenticity. We have enough armchair jocks and wannabe coaches here, now we apparently have armchair headhunters too. When I look at Coach Wojo, I never see a guy mailing anything in. I don't see an azz-kissing, networking con artist like you describe. I see a genuine, hard-working guy who sees himself as a proud steward of an historic program.

Just because a guy is a brown noser doesn’t mean he is berift of certain talents. Wojo is playing the game at the highest level that is how you get to be CEO at a big corporation , which is what having the reigns of a Big East level team with a multi million dollar contract is.  As you point out he has embraced MU tradition and I have applauded that move , however it was also very shrewd because it elevated him to the same level as the other coaches in MU history, which is something he didn’t yet earn. So as long as he can keep the program clean and deliver Mid level Big East success he can keep control . He has kissed up to all of the Board and made them feel secure about their decision to hire him and extend his contract. The donors are still giving money to the school so from the trustee perspective why rock the boat . It is like the old corporate paradigm of buy an IBM system and no one will question your decision.  Wojo is exactly the kind of stuffed shirt that fits into that role perfectly. I have met him many times and he is super cordial and very good in a one on one setting. I truly believe the only way he leaves is if there is a scandal and he is too polished for that.

As for who replaces him when he does get hired away, my view is consistent. Hire Stan, he has shown himself to be a good recruiter and can keep the roster and pipeline in place . My sense is  Stan has the potential to actually be a leader and a guy who can relate and motivate guys.

Also I want to make it clear I don’t think Wojo should be fires or even put on hot seat. He is what he is and my strategy would be to just wait it out and let him depart on his own . MU could make some good money in the right scenario where some other team pays for his buyout and didn’t have to shell out big bucks for Stans first contract.

[jutaw22mu]

Frankly I think this board has been pretty reasonable given the a) consistent underperformance of coaches and players and/or b) failure to bring in the players necessary to perform at a regular tournament level.  I'm not sharpening the pitchfork for 1 early season road loss, but whatever patience I had is pretty much gone.

This is pretty much where I am too.

[NickelDimer]

Since you're on the topic of what MU needs.....tell us exactly who you  think would be a genuine and authentic person to hire, because you are clearly calling out Wojo's authenticity. We have enough armchair jocks and wannabe coaches here, now we apparently have armchair headhunters too. When I look at Coach Wojo, I never see a guy mailing anything in. I don't see an azz-kissing, networking con artist like you describe. I see a genuine, hard-working guy who sees himself as a proud steward of an historic program.

This all sounds peachy. Can he coach though?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Unfortunately, Wojo is an expert at corporate brown nosing . The bromance with Lovell is alive and well. The Big East is down this year so Wojo can still squeeze out a record above .500. That will get him another couple years contract extension.

What MU needs is for Wojo to get to the 20 win mark again this year which would be possible if the team got hit in the BET. That should actually make him an attractive candidate when the annual coaching carousel comes around. He can then latch onto a power 5 football school program that has fallen on hard times and lock in another long term contract. Buzz was smart enough to do that and I am sure Wojo is smart enough to do the same thing.

Remember when you told us Wojo had already been given a contract extension during year 3? Said it would be announced at the end of the season? What ever happened to that?

[Herman Cain]

Remember when you told us Wojo had already been given a contract extension during year 3? Said it would be announced at the end of the season? What ever happened to that?

They amended it so it annually renews with a 4 year notice . This was done so as to be able to tell recruits he would be there for the duration of their eligibility. Like it or not Wojo will never be on the hot seat unless there is a major scandal. That’s why I am not getting worked up over any of the disappointments . As long as Lovell has an iron clad hold on his job Wojo is not going anywhere.

This is why I am keen on the scenario where someone else wants Wojo and Stan steps in. MU can can cash in and not have to shell out for Stan.

[WhiteTrash]

No one is forcing you to buy tickets. Or donate to the university

No they are not (didn't mention donations in my post either) but that has nothing to do with my post.
MU has chosen to compete in big time college basketball. They make a considerable investment into the program (top 10) and 'ask' supporters to pay for the investment (tickets, tv viewership, merchandise, donations, etc.). The biggest motivator for supporters is winning (see DePaul). It does not matter if Wojo is a great guy and his players graduate (those things are already true and MU has not extended his contract); if the program does not win and the money does not come in, he will be gone.

[79Warrior]

I would define disaster as missing the tournament. If they get in as a low seed, it's a disappointment but not a disaster. You never know what can happen from a lower seed, look at K-State last year, Loyola, VCU, etc. If they do miss the tournament this year, however, I do think it's worth considering a change. This is the team we've been building toward for five years. Scholarships are full, we have a mix of experience and talent, barring injury or mass transfers we should be able to at a minimum get in. If it can't at least get to the NCAAs, then why would there be a reasonable expectation of this working out significantly better in the long term?

I suspect Wojo will get next year regardless, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to believe he deserves 2019-20 if he can't make the Tournament in 2019 with a full complement of players.

Agree. BTW, nice win for Hurley and UCONN knocking off Cuse.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

They amended it so it annually renews with a 4 year notice . This was done so as to be able to tell recruits he would be there for the duration of their eligibility. Like it or not Wojo will never be on the hot seat unless there is a major scandal. That’s why I am not getting worked up over any of the disappointments . As long as Lovell has an iron clad hold on his job Wojo is not going anywhere.

This is why I am keen on the scenario where someone else wants Wojo and Stan steps in. MU can can cash in and not have to shell out for Stan.

So you lied. There was no contract extension, you made it up.