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Author Topic: Y’all got Bezos’ed  (Read 20208 times)

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2018, 05:13:12 PM »
Workers should only plan for Social Security to supplement retirement.   One could retire at 60 and fully fund their own retirement until collect SS benefits at 70.
Agreed, SS was designed to be one leg in a three-legged stool.  Unfortunately one leg, employer-sponsored retirement plans, has been basically sawed in half, and flat real wages since the 70's has seriously impeded another leg.  People should save more, but it is not easy if you are at or below median household income.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2018, 05:17:36 PM »
TSmith was argument was in response to raising the retirement age from 65 to 67.  The guy who is washed up at 60 is already effed in your scenario.
Normal retirement age is already 67, so we're talking here about moving it to 69 or 70.  Productivity generally drops significantly at these ages.

If were are trying to solve the SS deficit, there are a whole lot easier methods, as seen on the game link previously in this thread, than asking people to work into real old age.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2018, 05:44:06 PM »
TSmith was argument was in response to raising the retirement age from 65 to 67.  The guy who is washed up at 60 is already effed in your scenario.

Also, that can be true for any job.  If I lose mental acuity as I age and can't do my finance job any more, it's as much of a detriment to my working years as a construction worker who can't lift a 100-lb load of shingles.  Fortunately, those things happen gradually, and you should be able to plan for it.
I wonder what the numbers of broken down physical laborers vs. accountants  with early onset look like lol

reinko

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2018, 06:10:45 PM »
A 66-year-old who worked construction or HVAC his entire life sounds like the perfect person to work a nice safe job at Home Depot.  There's no law that says that everyone has to have the same job their entire life.  People make career changes all the time for a variety of reasons.


Back when Social Security was started in 1935, the average life expectancy was 61.  Now it's about 72.  There is a legitimate argument to be had that they should push it even further back than 67.

Isn't it closer to 79? (only adds to your argument) .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/united-states-drops-21-places-global-life-expectancy-rankings-180970585/
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/life-expectancy-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

4everwarriors

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2018, 06:33:26 PM »
Crean sucked back in 1935 two, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

WarriorDad

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2018, 09:08:19 PM »

Yep.  Raise the maximum taxable...lower the benefits for the wealthy...raise the retirement age by a year.  It's fully funded.

On paper, yes.  Not how it will happen, of course.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
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GGGG

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2018, 09:30:05 PM »
On paper, yes.  Not how it will happen, of course.

No kidding.

mu-rara

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2018, 12:17:01 PM »
Social Security will be fine.  It's an easy fix.  Just play with the retirement age, the caps, etc.  I don't call those "big changes."  They've happened before and will happen again.
I have an idea.  The federal government borrows Social Security funds for general budgetary needs, repaying it to SSA at a very low return ( around 1.25%).  I understand that politicians will not give up that cash easily.  If that money were invested by the State of Wisconsin Investment Board, or any other reputable institutional investor, wouldn't we all be better off.  Long term investment plan returns of 4-5% is not unreasonable.

Thoughts?  I've always wondered why this isn't discussed.

forgetful

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2018, 12:32:50 PM »
I have an idea.  The federal government borrows Social Security funds for general budgetary needs, repaying it to SSA at a very low return ( around 1.25%).  I understand that politicians will not give up that cash easily.  If that money were invested by the State of Wisconsin Investment Board, or any other reputable institutional investor, wouldn't we all be better off.  Long term investment plan returns of 4-5% is not unreasonable.

Thoughts?  I've always wondered why this isn't discussed.

You do realize that is essentially already how it works.  The SS trust makes about 3.1% in interest each year as part of its revenue.  The problem is that interest is largely due to government bonds.

The reason, is that congress has pilfered the trust to fund their massive budget shortfalls, where they sell US treasury bonds to the Trust so that they are not simply raiding it. 

So the Trust really has very little if any actual value, it is solely dependent on the US government paying its debt.

mu-rara

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2018, 12:54:35 PM »
I understand this. 

My question is, why not use a reputable pension asset manager to improve investment returns?

A return of 5% is a significant improvement over 3.1%. 

forgetful

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2018, 01:19:53 PM »
I understand this. 

My question is, why not use a reputable pension asset manager to improve investment returns?

A return of 5% is a significant improvement over 3.1%.

Because there is no money there.  The government would first have to front nearly $3T in cash to buy back all the bonds.  Where are they going to find buyers?

If they then invest that in the US-stock market, the US government would then be a 10% stakeholder in the total US market.  That would create some conflicts regarding us being a capitalist system.  If they invested it across the board, the US government would be a 10% owner of every single company traded in the US. 

Benny B

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2018, 10:02:54 PM »
I'm not sure how much more simple I can make this. The natural aging process is not considered an injury, therefore getting old does not qualify one for worker's comp or disability.

If you're suggesting that the person's condition has deteriorated as a result of something like a repetitive motion (such as a jackhammer operator or a typist who suffers carpal tunnel), then that's an injury that might qualify for worker's comp.
But getting too old to do the work? Nope.

Again, not what I was asking.  I appreciate your persistance though.

What I’m trying to hypothesize here is that if you’re 67 and can’t work particular job, you’d probably qualify for disability or worker’s comp if someone who’s 67 - who hasn’t otherwise made materially adverse choices with their health/well-being - should be able to work that job. 
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Pakuni

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2018, 07:53:57 AM »
Again, not what I was asking.  I appreciate your persistance though.

What I’m trying to hypothesize here is that if you’re 67 and can’t work particular job, you’d probably qualify for disability or worker’s comp if someone who’s 67 - who hasn’t otherwise made materially adverse choices with their health/well-being - should be able to work that job.

Your hypothesis is wrong.

WarriorDad

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2018, 09:30:17 AM »
I'd like to know what would happen if they increased the amount of the SS & Medicare tax, the amount that goes to prop up these programs, how much money would then come out of the economy because it is no longer disposable to the taxpayer.  What impact would that have of removing that money from the system by parking it into these programs.  Anyone know if such  an impact study has been done?
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

Pakuni

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2018, 10:54:59 AM »
I'd like to know what would happen if they increased the amount of the SS & Medicare tax, the amount that goes to prop up these programs, how much money would then come out of the economy because it is no longer disposable to the taxpayer.  What impact would that have of removing that money from the system by parking it into these programs.  Anyone know if such  an impact study has been done?

Money that goes to government is not "removed" from the economy. It goes to the government, which in turn spends it same as anyone else (such as with Medicare, to pay hospitals and medical providers).A dollar spent by the Dept of Education or Defense is worth no more or less than a dollar spent by me or you.

You could make the case - successfully in many instances - that money is spent more efficiently by private interests rather than the public sector, but it's not as if it vanishes into a black hole.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2018, 11:02:13 AM »
Your hypothesis is wrong.

I'm with Pakuni on this one.

It's not workers' comp because there is no injury or illness arising out of the course of the employment.  And, a 67 year old who isn't able to perform a "particular job" is not disabled.  Growing old is not a disability.  If they have a specific condition that prevents them from performing a wide variety of jobs, they might be disabled.  But not if they just can't do things any longer because of the natural aging process.

One exception, however, would be that if they have purchased "same occupation" disability insurance that pays if they're unable to keep doing the same job -- but still would probably need to be because of a specific medical condition, not just age.  Such insurance tends to be pretty expensive, and I suspect might not even be available to 67 year old (particularly in a physically demanding position).
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2018, 02:47:53 PM »
I'd like to know what would happen if they increased the amount of the SS & Medicare tax, the amount that goes to prop up these programs, how much money would then come out of the economy because it is no longer disposable to the taxpayer.  What impact would that have of removing that money from the system by parking it into these programs.  Anyone know if such  an impact study has been done?
Oh good, ChicosBothSides has weighed in with his loaded "just askin'" shtick.  Might as well lock the thread now.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

mu-rara

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2018, 03:55:06 PM »
Because there is no money there.  The government would first have to front nearly $3T in cash to buy back all the bonds.  Where are they going to find buyers?

If they then invest that in the US-stock market, the US government would then be a 10% stakeholder in the total US market.  That would create some conflicts regarding us being a capitalist system.  If they invested it across the board, the US government would be a 10% owner of every single company traded in the US.
The US Govt is not the investor, just like the St of WI is not the investor.  Hire an independent organization like SWIB, to execute the plan.  You couldn't flip a switch and buy all the bonds.  This is a long term plan, executed over many years.  We are getting diddly squat in return.  Most estimates of returns are not close to the 10 year Treasury.  The TSP, a Federal Govt equivalent of the 401(K), is invested in an age based program.  Why not move to that type of system?

dgies9156

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2018, 04:02:31 PM »
Because there is no money there.  The government would first have to front nearly $3T in cash to buy back all the bonds.  Where are they going to find buyers?

If they then invest that in the US-stock market, the US government would then be a 10% stakeholder in the total US market.  That would create some conflicts regarding us being a capitalist system.  If they invested it across the board, the US government would be a 10% owner of every single company traded in the US.

The Reagan and Bush administrations proposed this as an option.

All I need is for my company to be 10% or more owned by the federal government. Boy, would that be fun. NOT!!!!!!!!! I do not want to think of the pressures that any private entity would face.

Think of it -- shareholder price or CEO pay? What do you think the federal government would focus on?

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2018, 04:20:44 PM »
I'm with Pakuni on this one.

It's not workers' comp because there is no injury or illness arising out of the course of the employment.  And, a 67 year old who isn't able to perform a "particular job" is not disabled.  Growing old is not a disability.  If they have a specific condition that prevents them from performing a wide variety of jobs, they might be disabled.  But not if they just can't do things any longer because of the natural aging process.

One exception, however, would be that if they have purchased "same occupation" disability insurance that pays if they're unable to keep doing the same job -- but still would probably need to be because of a specific medical condition, not just age.  Such insurance tends to be pretty expensive, and I suspect might not even be available to 67 year old (particularly in a physically demanding position).

Wrong.

https://blog.safetyculture.com/industry-trends/types-of-injuries-and-workplace-illnesses-that-qualify-for-workers-comp

Occupational injuries are absolutely covered by work comp.  Hearing loss, asbestos & related illness, repetitive strain, etc all can be acquired in the course and scope of employment.  Don't need an occurrence to trigger work comp.  Obviously, the insurance company is going to investigate, possibly use surveillance, get an independent medical examination, etc., (a lot of it depends on the state laws).  A lot of the ALJs that hear work comp claims are very sympathetic to the employee side, so the burden of proof is further on the insurance company, for what is, in reality, a no-fault insurance coverage.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2018, 06:23:12 PM »
Wrong.

https://blog.safetyculture.com/industry-trends/types-of-injuries-and-workplace-illnesses-that-qualify-for-workers-comp

Occupational injuries are absolutely covered by work comp.  Hearing loss, asbestos & related illness, repetitive strain, etc all can be acquired in the course and scope of employment.  Don't need an occurrence to trigger work comp.  Obviously, the insurance company is going to investigate, possibly use surveillance, get an independent medical examination, etc., (a lot of it depends on the state laws).  A lot of the ALJs that hear work comp claims are very sympathetic to the employee side, so the burden of proof is further on the insurance company, for what is, in reality, a no-fault insurance coverage.

Nothing I said was wrong. Frankly, nothing I said was inconsistent with what you wrote. If there is an illness or injury arising out of work, then workers’ comp is in play. That’s literally in the first sentence of my post.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2018, 07:00:12 PM »
Nothing I said was wrong. Frankly, nothing I said was inconsistent with what you wrote. If there is an illness or injury arising out of work, then workers’ comp is in play. That’s literally in the first sentence of my post.

Fair play.

🏀

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2018, 10:09:20 PM »
Wrong.

https://blog.safetyculture.com/industry-trends/types-of-injuries-and-workplace-illnesses-that-qualify-for-workers-comp

Occupational injuries are absolutely covered by work comp.  Hearing loss, asbestos & related illness, repetitive strain, etc all can be acquired in the course and scope of employment.  Don't need an occurrence to trigger work comp.  Obviously, the insurance company is going to investigate, possibly use surveillance, get an independent medical examination, etc., (a lot of it depends on the state laws).  A lot of the ALJs that hear work comp claims are very sympathetic to the employee side, so the burden of proof is further on the insurance company, for what is, in reality, a no-fault insurance coverage.
Nothing I said was wrong. Frankly, nothing I said was inconsistent with what you wrote. If there is an illness or injury arising out of work, then workers’ comp is in play. That’s literally in the first sentence of my post.

ZFB is just upset. His ongoing legal struggle with Visions over his "mop wrist" hasn't been going well.

jesmu84

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WarriorDad

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Re: Y’all got Bezos’ed
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2018, 12:55:03 PM »
Money that goes to government is not "removed" from the economy. It goes to the government, which in turn spends it same as anyone else (such as with Medicare, to pay hospitals and medical providers).A dollar spent by the Dept of Education or Defense is worth no more or less than a dollar spent by me or you.

You could make the case - successfully in many instances - that money is spent more efficiently by private interests rather than the public sector, but it's not as if it vanishes into a black hole.

Money that goes to the government in part is removed.  Used to pay for things like interest on the debt.  Not all of it, not even most of it, but it isn't always spent back into the economy.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

 

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