WWII discussion

[buckchuckler]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/WOVEy1tC7nk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/WOVEy1tC7nk</a>

That, is really cool.  Amazing how quickly things happened on both sides.

And wtf Finland?  I obviously didn't know enough about their role in the war, and in reading up a little bit, it seems that war makes for strange bedfellows.  The enemy of my enemy indeed.

[mu03eng]

First, amazing story about your great uncle.

Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

[mu03eng]

Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain, were instrumental in Hitler's lack of trust in others.  In both of these battles he listened to Herman Goring saying the battles could be won on the strength of the luftwaffe alone, obviously he was wrong on both counts.  This led to Hitler losing trust in the advice of pretty much anyone.  This ended up having lasting effects, as Goring (and most--it not all-- of the German generals) were completely against attacking Russia before the western front was, well, settled.

Dunkirk I totally agree, but it was always my understanding that Hitler himself ordered the shift in objectives in the Battle of Britian from the RAF to the cities as a retaliation for night time raids on Dresden and other German cities by RAF bombers. Is that incorrect?

[buckchuckler]

Dunkirk I totally agree, but it was always my understanding that Hitler himself ordered the shift in objectives in the Battle of Britian from the RAF to the cities as a retaliation for night time raids on Dresden and other German cities by RAF bombers. Is that incorrect?

I believe you are correct there.  I meant it was Goring's plan to get the Brits to submit solely through the use of air power.

[mu03eng]

I believe you are correct there.  I meant it was Goring's plan to get the Brits to submit solely through the use of air power.

Gotcha, agreed. Turns out you shouldn't do drugs and try to fight a war.

[muwarrior69]

Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

Could you post that picture? Would love to see that.

[jsglow]

Hitler was a victim of a gas attack in WWI and was averse to using them in combat, but not the concentration camps. Funny how we humans can compartmentalize brutality.

Yep, that's my recollection.

[jsglow]

Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

Thank you to your family for their sacrifice Eng.  Those are some cool arse stories.  When #nored is a little older make sure you pass them on.  And when he's in JH and complaining about something stupid you can remind him that his great gramps spent weeks in a raft and to STFU.

[mu03eng]

Thank you to your family for their sacrifice Eng.  Those are some cool arse stories.  When #nored is a little older make sure you pass them on.  And when he's in JH and complaining about something stupid you can remind him that his great gramps spent weeks in a raft and to STFU.

Won't have to pass it along, his grandmother will fill his head with all of these stories and more (Great great great great great grandfather was a courier for George Washington, etc) for years.

[mu03eng]

Could you post that picture? Would love to see that.

Will do

[buckchuckler]

Gotcha, agreed. Turns out you shouldn't do drugs and try to fight a war.

Hahahah!

And now for another edition of good idea, bad idea.

[buckchuckler]

Yep, that's my recollection.

He was definitely in a gas attack.  At the time he had a full kaiser style mustache, and it prevented his mask from securing tightly enough so he cut it into his, umm, trademark style, I guess.

Not sure this was ever officially cited as a reason why gas wasn't used on the battlefield, as he clearly had no qualms about using gas in the elimination camps.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Going back to planes. My grandfather was a pilot for the Navy in WWII.

To his dying day he always maintained that US Naval fighters were better than the Airforce. And that Aircraft Carriers was why the US beat Japan.

[HouWarrior]

Dunkirk I totally agree, but it was always my understanding that Hitler himself ordered the shift in objectives in the Battle of Britian from the RAF to the cities as a retaliation for night time raids on Dresden and other German cities by RAF bombers. Is that incorrect?

Each of these are close to right just a little tweaking. Dunkirk was left over area after the uber (note use of german-lol) rapid panzer advances drove BEF to the seaside, and after their shelling of Calais cutoff that main Brit escape area. The Panzer pause was for rest/repair and to allow the landed troops to catch up . The Dunkirk movie covered the rest of the steps pretty well. Germans did not let it happen, but were certainly stood down at a key time and did not snap to until defenses/timing made it too late for them to take that area before the heroic beach escapes were completed.
 
Battle of Britain began with shipping strikes...not much success.  Land targeting included only two days of radar site strikes...Germans did not fully understand how key the recon/warning system was to fighters always being in the right place/right time. Instead they shifted to attacking the fighter bases. It was there that they did not know how close they came to breaking the Brit's back. During a nightime bombing raid up the Thames (shipping/docks) a flight got a little skewed and direct hit civilian areas of London. Next night Brit Lancasters hit Berlin...violating Goerring's promise to Hitler such would never occur. Uber pissed , they shifted more to Brit city targeting, ....the fighter bases caught their breath and their "Big Flight" groupings eventually caused Goerring to concede he couldnt control air space for any invasion.
Dresden, as you reference was 5 years later...consisting of four incendiary raids in Feb 1945...very bad stuff/borderline war crime/ 25000 civilians killed. It had nothing to do with Battle of Britain

[HouWarrior]

The production values are very poor, but there’s a History Channel series on Netflix titled Nazi Mega Weapons.  I haven’t seen the 2nd or 3rd seasons, but if someone wants to get woke to how close the Axis might have been to winning WWII, watch season 1, specifically the ME262 and the V2 episodes.  Either one of those perfected and in mass production would have drawn a completely different ending despite any Allied efforts.

This is a PBS series. PBS has been very good about getting even recent content over to NetFlix. Each episode begins with good history, but each loses steam as they always attempt to go the scenes with recent archaeology of the production or launch sites...the viewer is often impressed with how these are almost all gone...WWII is not physically well preserved...many traces are already gone....guess folks in Europe decided to rebuild and get on with their lives lol

[HouWarrior]

100 years ago this fall my grandpa fell /almost dead at Verdun in WW I.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54790.msg959347#msg959347

My Dad was in WW2 in So Pacific, and my uncle was at Wheeler field during the first wave of the Pearl Harbor attack, and another uncle worked behind Jap lines, scouting occupied islands for the OSS (precursor to the CIA).

BUT.....You all here know and can study more of these wars than any of them.
Why?

1) You just dont talk about it.... those of you that tried will attest that the guys who saw the worst even when prodded would not talk about it. It was drilled into them as soldiers to be close lipped and even on muster out silence was encouraged for coping and moving on.

2) There were real secrets... The cold war fell almost immediately after WW2 and everyone tended to declare everything a secret. Many docus coming out now are accurate in touting "Never before seen records"

3)Propaganda controlled news. Each side carefully controlled war news. It was unpatriotic to question this....we were in a war for our lives...we'll question our news controls after its over. My mom first learned of the failed Dieppe raid in 2008

and

4) You really dont want to see the sausage made. With maybe the exception of post war Holocaust and Vietnam reports....the folks at home dont really see any war up close. I recall playing on the floor (out of their sight but within full earshot) when my dad and 2 uncles reviewed personal photos, and shared the stories only the men share among each other when they think no one hears....horrible is the kindest word....I never want to hear any of that again ....and yet I am scarred enough to say I still remember every scene ,moment and atrocity described.

The history part of war is detached and fun ...the actual fighting is an anathema to all decency....

You now have more of the history out there than those who were in it. Enjoy

[buckchuckler]

Going back to planes. My grandfather was a pilot for the Navy in WWII.

To his dying day he always maintained that US Naval fighters were better than the Airforce. And that Aircraft Carriers was why the US beat Japan.

I think that is basically fact.

The Aircraft carrier part at least.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Houston, that explains a lot. Always wondered why my grandfather never told me anything about his time in WWII.

Granted I was only 10 when he died so I was a bit young, but according to my dad, he didn't tell him anything either. Just refused to make it a discussion.

The very few things I know.

1. He flew fighter planes for the Navy
2. He enlisted straight away in 1940, but was only 16 at the time so he had to use a fake birthday and name (Makes finding his records an absolute pain in the ass)
3. He was in combat. Said he shot planes down but never said how many.

Other then that, it's a complete mystery.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

That sounds like historical fiction, where the characters keep showing up at big events.  But this was real.  Super cool.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I'd reserve that for the ball turret gunner...tiny dude hanging 30,000 feet in the air

Yes, I used the wrong gunner.

They had to be 5'6" or shorter to "qualify" for ball turret gunner.  Lucky basterds.

[muwarrior69]

100 years ago this fall my grandpa fell /almost dead at Verdun in WW I.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54790.msg959347#msg959347

My Dad was in WW2 in So Pacific, and my uncle was at Wheeler field during the first wave of the Pearl Harbor attack, and another uncle worked behind Jap lines, scouting occupied islands for the OSS (precursor to the CIA).

BUT.....You all here know and can study more of these wars than any of them.
Why?

1) You just dont talk about it.... those of you that tried will attest that the guys who saw the worst even when prodded would not talk about it. It was drilled into them as soldiers to be close lipped and even on muster out silence was encouraged for coping and moving on.

2) There were real secrets... The cold war fell almost immediately after WW2 and everyone tended to declare everything a secret. Many docus coming out now are accurate in touting "Never before seen records"

3)Propaganda controlled news. Each side carefully controlled war news. It was unpatriotic to question this....we were in a war for our lives...we'll question our news controls after its over. My mom first learned of the failed Dieppe raid in 2008

and

4) You really dont want to see the sausage made. With maybe the exception of post war Holocaust and Vietnam reports....the folks at home dont really see any war up close. I recall playing on the floor (out of their sight but within full earshot) when my dad and 2 uncles reviewed personal photos, and shared the stories only the men share among each other when they think no one hears....horrible is the kindest word....I never want to hear any of that again ....and yet I am scarred enough to say I still remember every scene ,moment and atrocity described.

The history part of war is detached and fun ...the actual fighting is an anathema to all decency....

You now have more of the history out there than those who were in it. Enjoy

My uncle was in the battle of the Bulge. Never talked about it. Being German American I would not be surprised if he shot some 2nd or 3rd cousin.

[Jockey]

1) You just dont talk about it.... those of you that tried will attest that the guys who saw the worst even when prodded would not talk about it. It was drilled into them as soldiers to be close lipped and even on muster out silence was encouraged for coping and moving on.

PTSD was not even considered back then and "real" men did not talk about psychological issues.

As a kid growing up, there were neighborhood bars every couple blocks. Peeking in the doors, it was usually just guys sitting alone drinking. I didn't realize until years later, that these bars were populated in a large part by guys just trying to get out of their own heads in the years after the war.

[warriorchick]

My uncle was in the battle of the Bulge. Never talked about it. Being German American I would not be surprised if he shot some 2nd or 3rd cousin.

My uncle Norman stormed the beach at Normandy. My cousin, his daughter, was born soon afterwards, and was named, you guessed it, Normandy.

Normandy and Norman are no longer with us, but last Veterans day, his other daughter showed me a shadow box they had made of his official photo and his medals. I noticed a purple heart an a bronze star among them, and I asked what the stories were behind them.

She replied, "Oh, I don't know;he never talked about that stuff."

[HouWarrior]

PTSD was not even considered back then and "real" men did not talk about psychological issues.

As a kid growing up, there were neighborhood bars every couple blocks. Peeking in the doors, it was usually just guys sitting alone drinking. I didn't realize until years later, that these bars were populated in a large part by guys just trying to get out of their own heads in the years after the war.

Yup.

My uncle in the OSS spent most of the war behind Jap lines scouting, at night,  on the islands we hoped to invade (he carried and killed in the dark ...armed only with a knife and/or garrote, ....all hand to hand...brutal commando stuff) so .......

at muster out in '45.....he collected a then huge amount of back pay....but his mind had not recovered

As my mom explained ....he bought the fanciest car he could...and then he spent the next 6 months on a non stop drinking binge...until the $$ ran out. Truth is he worked and raised a family...but he never beat the bottle...it became his quiet place. Classic PTSD

[real chili 83]

My dentist and neighbor was a bronze star recipient for actions in Europe.  Never would have known it.

Neighbor three doors down helped create the atomic bomb, and was in one of the first planes over Hiroshima after the drop.  Used to shovel his driveway and watched his house when they vacationed over the winter. Never would have known that.

My wife's uncle was at Bastogne.  Started talking to him one day about it. He told me about the Germans, and Patton arriving. One of his jobs was to write to the parents of fallen soldiers.  Later that day, his three sons came to me and said their dad never told them those stories.