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Author Topic: WWII discussion  (Read 10824 times)

ZiggysFryBoy

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WWII discussion
« on: April 12, 2018, 09:23:34 PM »
A lot of interesting discussion in 82's auto- lock thread on WWII.  Would like to continue it here.

MU82

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 09:46:20 PM »
A lot of interesting discussion in 82's auto- lock thread on WWII.  Would like to continue it here.

I'm still trying to figure out why that thread was locked.

Yes, it ventured from the original subject, but the new venture was very interesting.

It was a respectful thread and not at all political.

The stuff on the poison gas was interesting too.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 09:50:33 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out why that thread was locked.

Yes, it ventured from the original subject, but the new venture was very interesting.

It was a respectful thread and not at all political.

The stuff on the poison gas was interesting too.

I was confused as well, I apologize if I was the reason for the lockn as I believe I must have been.

Benny B

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 11:10:02 PM »
The production values are very poor, but there’s a History Channel series on Netflix titled Nazi Mega Weapons.  I haven’t seen the 2nd or 3rd seasons, but if someone wants to get woke to how close the Axis might have been to winning WWII, watch season 1, specifically the ME262 and the V2 episodes.  Either one of those perfected and in mass production would have drawn a completely different ending despite any Allied efforts.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

real chili 83

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 04:59:22 AM »
The production values are very poor, but there’s a History Channel series on Netflix titled Nazi Mega Weapons.  I haven’t seen the 2nd or 3rd seasons, but if someone wants to get woke to how close the Axis might have been to winning WWII, watch season 1, specifically the ME262 and the V2 episodes.  Either one of those perfected and in mass production would have drawn a completely different ending despite any Allied efforts.

British had a jet too. 

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 05:11:05 AM »
The production values are very poor, but there’s a History Channel series on Netflix titled Nazi Mega Weapons.  I haven’t seen the 2nd or 3rd seasons, but if someone wants to get woke to how close the Axis might have been to winning WWII, watch season 1, specifically the ME262 and the V2 episodes.  Either one of those perfected and in mass production would have drawn a completely different ending despite any Allied efforts.

Seems weird to say considering his influnce, but I always remember hearing that Hitler was the reason the Nazi's messed up WWII. Meaning if anybody other then Hitler was leading the Nazi army, they could have easily won the war.

Eldon

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 05:40:13 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/WOVEy1tC7nk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/WOVEy1tC7nk</a>

real chili 83

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 06:01:34 AM »
In HS I worked with a cook that was cook in WWII.  He was in the army and deployed to the Philippines. His kitchen was set up near a golf course   The Japanese would shell the golf course daily, so he called it Whack Whack golf course.  He was also very proud of the two Japanese he captured.....they surrendered, looking for food. 

warriorchick

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 07:13:52 AM »
British had a jet too.

I remember reading somewhere that after the war, the army discovered a scale model of what we now call the Stealth Bomber
Have some patience, FFS.

warriorchick

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 07:17:36 AM »
In HS I worked with a cook that was cook in WWII.  He was in the army and deployed to the Philippines. His kitchen was set up near a golf course   The Japanese would shell the golf course daily, so he called it Whack Whack golf course.  He was also very proud of the two Japanese he captured.....they surrendered, looking for food.

I met the uncle of a friend who had arguably the best job in WWII - bartender in an officers club in the South Pacific. The actual fighting didn't come anywhere near him. From a strictly personal perspective, he didn't care if the war never ended.
Have some patience, FFS.

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 07:35:20 AM »
British had a jet too.

US had the P-80(inferior to the ME-262) entering production in April of 45 as well.
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mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 07:43:14 AM »
The production values are very poor, but there’s a History Channel series on Netflix titled Nazi Mega Weapons.  I haven’t seen the 2nd or 3rd seasons, but if someone wants to get woke to how close the Axis might have been to winning WWII, watch season 1, specifically the ME262 and the V2 episodes.  Either one of those perfected and in mass production would have drawn a completely different ending despite any Allied efforts.

Yeah if the German military had been in charge I shutter to think what would have happened to the world. Hell, half of the US weapon programs (especially the Manhattan Project) owe their success to scientists who were either Jewish or morally opposed to the Nazi regime that escaped Germany prior to the war. Hitler stopped the German army at Dunkirk and redirected the Luftwaffe to attack cities instead of breaking the RAF like they were. He seemingly had strategic amnesia, early in the war he seemingly grasped the import of air superiority then once the US entered the war seemed to abandon it in favor of terror weapons and mis-use of resources....hell the ME-262 program was set back at least 9 months because Hitler demanded that it be redesigned for long range bombing so he could hit London.

Once the Allies invaded the continent, Hitler's unwillingness to strategically withdraw led to the war ending sooner than it could have

I suppose there is a lesson in there that evil by it's very nature creates the conditions for it's own failure.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2018, 08:30:23 AM »
While the Allies had some jets, the were far inferior to the messerschmidt.  It was faster, more maneuverable and could out climb  the planes for the allies.  The only thing that really held it back was that it was so advanced there weren't really tactics for flying them so the Germans really didn't take full advantage of a superior weapon.  Heck, the only efficient was the allies had to defeat them was to shoot them when they were landing, taking off or stationary.

muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2018, 09:58:25 AM »
While the Allies had some jets, the were far inferior to the messerschmidt.  It was faster, more maneuverable and could out climb  the planes for the allies.  The only thing that really held it back was that it was so advanced there weren't really tactics for flying them so the Germans really didn't take full advantage of a superior weapon.  Heck, the only efficient was the allies had to defeat them was to shoot them when they were landing, taking off or stationary.

We took a few of them down in air to air combat.

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/tuskegee-airmen-vs-me-262s/

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2018, 10:00:04 AM »
While the Allies had some jets, the were far inferior to the messerschmidt.  It was faster, more maneuverable and could out climb  the planes for the allies.  The only thing that really held it back was that it was so advanced there weren't really tactics for flying them so the Germans really didn't take full advantage of a superior weapon.  Heck, the only efficient was the allies had to defeat them was to shoot them when they were landing, taking off or stationary.

The two deficiencies in the 262 turning the tide in the strategic air war (IMO by the time it was introduced the damage to the German war making ability was already done) were its limited loitering ability and it's lack of numbers. If the Germans had moved it into mass production a year sooner, they could have really hammered the strategic air campaign.
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mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 10:07:38 AM »
We took a few of them down in air to air combat.

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/tuskegee-airmen-vs-me-262s/

Chuck Yeager bagged one too

My son's name sake was credited to have gotten an 262 as a top turrent gunner on a B-17 (gunner kills were even more inaccurate than fighter kills because they're all firing away so you can't really know who got it or for sure that it was gotten).

Couple of days later(April of 45), a 262 got it's revenge and shot their B-17 out from under them, my great uncle and another guy were the only ones to bail out. He was captured temporarily, managed to escape and then that night was caught by the SS and executed.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2018, 10:16:18 AM »
To bring it back to the gas discussion previously.....one thing I've often wondered about, why wasn't gas used by the Germans or the Japanese on the battlefield? I mean they were both doing some really, really awful stuff anyway (Holocaust, experimentation of PoWs, summary execution of PoWs, Death Marches, etc). Why not deploy chemical weapons on the battlefield, it at least had a tactical impact. Why restrain themselves in that one area?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

MU82

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 10:25:17 AM »
To bring it back to the gas discussion previously.....one thing I've often wondered about, why wasn't gas used by the Germans or the Japanese on the battlefield? I mean they were both doing some really, really awful stuff anyway (Holocaust, experimentation of PoWs, summary execution of PoWs, Death Marches, etc). Why not deploy chemical weapons on the battlefield, it at least had a tactical impact. Why restrain themselves in that one area?

I have often wondered the same thing. They had absolutely no morals. They weren't following any rules.

Maybe they were worried they couldn't have controlled the gas due to winds and that it would have blown back to kill their own troops? That's about the only thing I can think of.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2018, 10:28:30 AM »
To bring it back to the gas discussion previously.....one thing I've often wondered about, why wasn't gas used by the Germans or the Japanese on the battlefield? I mean they were both doing some really, really awful stuff anyway (Holocaust, experimentation of PoWs, summary execution of PoWs, Death Marches, etc). Why not deploy chemical weapons on the battlefield, it at least had a tactical impact. Why restrain themselves in that one area?

Hitler was a victim of a gas attack in WWI and was averse to using them in combat, but not the concentration camps. Funny how we humans can compartmentalize brutality.

MU82

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2018, 10:31:28 AM »
Hitler was a victim of a gas attack in WWI and was averse to using them in combat, but not the concentration camps. Funny how we humans can compartmentalize brutality.

You know ... I never liked that Hitler guy.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2018, 10:40:49 AM »
I met the uncle of a friend who had arguably the best job in WWII - bartender in an officers club in the South Pacific. The actual fighting didn't come anywhere near him. From a strictly personal perspective, he didn't care if the war never ended.

My dad was shipped out too the Pacific, but when his squadron reached Seattle they were reassigned to Fairbanks Alaska. I have old photos of him sweeping snow from his barracks in June and trout fishing in August. He also flew support missions dropping supplies to our troops fighting the Japanese on the Aleutians; the only ground battles fought on American soil during the war. He also earned enough money to buy my mom's engagement ring picking potatoes under the Alaskan midnight sun.

buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2018, 11:14:26 AM »
I have often wondered the same thing. They had absolutely no morals. They weren't following any rules.

Maybe they were worried they couldn't have controlled the gas due to winds and that it would have blown back to kill their own troops? That's about the only thing I can think of.

This happened fairly regularly during WWI.  Gas was an ineffective weapon as its killing power literally blew in the wind. 


ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2018, 11:18:43 AM »
Chuck Yeager bagged one too

My son's name sake was credited to have gotten an 262 as a top turrent gunner on a B-17 (gunner kills were even more inaccurate than fighter kills because they're all firing away so you can't really know who got it or for sure that it was gotten).

Couple of days later(April of 45), a 262 got it's revenge and shot their B-17 out from under them, my great uncle and another guy were the only ones to bail out. He was captured temporarily, managed to escape and then that night was caught by the SS and executed.

First, amazing story about your great uncle.

second, if you ever have the chance to see a B-17 or other WWII bomber, do it.  The Pima Air Museum in Tucson has one on display.  The technological improvements between the B-17 and the B-29 were pretty impressive.

The tail gunners in the B-17 were little guys with huge testes.

buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2018, 11:24:34 AM »
Yeah if the German military had been in charge I shutter to think what would have happened to the world. Hell, half of the US weapon programs (especially the Manhattan Project) owe their success to scientists who were either Jewish or morally opposed to the Nazi regime that escaped Germany prior to the war. Hitler stopped the German army at Dunkirk and redirected the Luftwaffe to attack cities instead of breaking the RAF like they were. He seemingly had strategic amnesia, early in the war he seemingly grasped the import of air superiority then once the US entered the war seemed to abandon it in favor of terror weapons and mis-use of resources....hell the ME-262 program was set back at least 9 months because Hitler demanded that it be redesigned for long range bombing so he could hit London.

Once the Allies invaded the continent, Hitler's unwillingness to strategically withdraw led to the war ending sooner than it could have

I suppose there is a lesson in there that evil by it's very nature creates the conditions for it's own failure.

Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain, were instrumental in Hitler's lack of trust in others.  In both of these battles he listened to Herman Goring saying the battles could be won on the strength of the luftwaffe alone, obviously he was wrong on both counts.  This led to Hitler losing trust in the advice of pretty much anyone.  This ended up having lasting effects, as Goring (and most--it not all-- of the German generals) were completely against attacking Russia before the western front was, well, settled. 

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2018, 11:26:02 AM »
The tail gunners in the B-17 were little guys with huge testes.

I'd reserve that for the ball turret gunner...tiny dude hanging 30,000 feet in the air
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buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2018, 11:45:17 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/WOVEy1tC7nk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/WOVEy1tC7nk</a>


That, is really cool.  Amazing how quickly things happened on both sides.

And wtf Finland?  I obviously didn't know enough about their role in the war, and in reading up a little bit, it seems that war makes for strange bedfellows.  The enemy of my enemy indeed.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 12:09:49 PM by buckchuckler »

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2018, 11:51:27 AM »
First, amazing story about your great uncle.

Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2018, 11:59:51 AM »
Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain, were instrumental in Hitler's lack of trust in others.  In both of these battles he listened to Herman Goring saying the battles could be won on the strength of the luftwaffe alone, obviously he was wrong on both counts.  This led to Hitler losing trust in the advice of pretty much anyone.  This ended up having lasting effects, as Goring (and most--it not all-- of the German generals) were completely against attacking Russia before the western front was, well, settled.

Dunkirk I totally agree, but it was always my understanding that Hitler himself ordered the shift in objectives in the Battle of Britian from the RAF to the cities as a retaliation for night time raids on Dresden and other German cities by RAF bombers. Is that incorrect?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2018, 12:08:41 PM »
Dunkirk I totally agree, but it was always my understanding that Hitler himself ordered the shift in objectives in the Battle of Britian from the RAF to the cities as a retaliation for night time raids on Dresden and other German cities by RAF bombers. Is that incorrect?

I believe you are correct there.  I meant it was Goring's plan to get the Brits to submit solely through the use of air power.

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2018, 12:12:51 PM »
I believe you are correct there.  I meant it was Goring's plan to get the Brits to submit solely through the use of air power.

Gotcha, agreed. Turns out you shouldn't do drugs and try to fight a war.
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muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2018, 12:21:06 PM »
Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

Could you post that picture? Would love to see that.

jsglow

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2018, 12:41:37 PM »
Hitler was a victim of a gas attack in WWI and was averse to using them in combat, but not the concentration camps. Funny how we humans can compartmentalize brutality.

Yep, that's my recollection.

jsglow

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2018, 12:46:07 PM »
Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

Thank you to your family for their sacrifice Eng.  Those are some cool arse stories.  When #nored is a little older make sure you pass them on.  And when he's in JH and complaining about something stupid you can remind him that his great gramps spent weeks in a raft and to STFU.

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2018, 12:54:38 PM »
Thank you to your family for their sacrifice Eng.  Those are some cool arse stories.  When #nored is a little older make sure you pass them on.  And when he's in JH and complaining about something stupid you can remind him that his great gramps spent weeks in a raft and to STFU.

Won't have to pass it along, his grandmother will fill his head with all of these stories and more (Great great great great great grandfather was a courier for George Washington, etc) for years.
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mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2018, 12:54:55 PM »
Could you post that picture? Would love to see that.

Will do
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buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2018, 01:19:09 PM »
Gotcha, agreed. Turns out you shouldn't do drugs and try to fight a war.


Hahahah!

And now for another edition of good idea, bad idea.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 01:21:21 PM by buckchuckler »

buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2018, 01:24:50 PM »
Yep, that's my recollection.

He was definitely in a gas attack.  At the time he had a full kaiser style mustache, and it prevented his mask from securing tightly enough so he cut it into his, umm, trademark style, I guess.

Not sure this was ever officially cited as a reason why gas wasn't used on the battlefield, as he clearly had no qualms about using gas in the elimination camps.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2018, 02:06:32 PM »
Going back to planes. My grandfather was a pilot for the Navy in WWII.

To his dying day he always maintained that US Naval fighters were better than the Airforce. And that Aircraft Carriers was why the US beat Japan.

HouWarrior

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2018, 02:49:53 PM »
Dunkirk I totally agree, but it was always my understanding that Hitler himself ordered the shift in objectives in the Battle of Britian from the RAF to the cities as a retaliation for night time raids on Dresden and other German cities by RAF bombers. Is that incorrect?
Each of these are close to right just a little tweaking. Dunkirk was left over area after the uber (note use of german-lol) rapid panzer advances drove BEF to the seaside, and after their shelling of Calais cutoff that main Brit escape area. The Panzer pause was for rest/repair and to allow the landed troops to catch up . The Dunkirk movie covered the rest of the steps pretty well. Germans did not let it happen, but were certainly stood down at a key time and did not snap to until defenses/timing made it too late for them to take that area before the heroic beach escapes were completed.
 
Battle of Britain began with shipping strikes...not much success.  Land targeting included only two days of radar site strikes...Germans did not fully understand how key the recon/warning system was to fighters always being in the right place/right time. Instead they shifted to attacking the fighter bases. It was there that they did not know how close they came to breaking the Brit's back. During a nightime bombing raid up the Thames (shipping/docks) a flight got a little skewed and direct hit civilian areas of London. Next night Brit Lancasters hit Berlin...violating Goerring's promise to Hitler such would never occur. Uber pissed , they shifted more to Brit city targeting, ....the fighter bases caught their breath and their "Big Flight" groupings eventually caused Goerring to concede he couldnt control air space for any invasion.
Dresden, as you reference was 5 years later...consisting of four incendiary raids in Feb 1945...very bad stuff/borderline war crime/ 25000 civilians killed. It had nothing to do with Battle of Britain
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HouWarrior

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Re: WWII discussio
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2018, 03:03:30 PM »
The production values are very poor, but there’s a History Channel series on Netflix titled Nazi Mega Weapons.  I haven’t seen the 2nd or 3rd seasons, but if someone wants to get woke to how close the Axis might have been to winning WWII, watch season 1, specifically the ME262 and the V2 episodes.  Either one of those perfected and in mass production would have drawn a completely different ending despite any Allied efforts.
This is a PBS series. PBS has been very good about getting even recent content over to NetFlix. Each episode begins with good history, but each loses steam as they always attempt to go the scenes with recent archaeology of the production or launch sites...the viewer is often impressed with how these are almost all gone...WWII is not physically well preserved...many traces are already gone....guess folks in Europe decided to rebuild and get on with their lives lol
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HouWarrior

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2018, 03:39:08 PM »
100 years ago this fall my grandpa fell /almost dead at Verdun in WW I.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54790.msg959347#msg959347

My Dad was in WW2 in So Pacific, and my uncle was at Wheeler field during the first wave of the Pearl Harbor attack, and another uncle worked behind Jap lines, scouting occupied islands for the OSS (precursor to the CIA).

BUT.....You all here know and can study more of these wars than any of them.
Why?

1) You just dont talk about it.... those of you that tried will attest that the guys who saw the worst even when prodded would not talk about it. It was drilled into them as soldiers to be close lipped and even on muster out silence was encouraged for coping and moving on.

2) There were real secrets... The cold war fell almost immediately after WW2 and everyone tended to declare everything a secret. Many docus coming out now are accurate in touting "Never before seen records"

3)Propaganda controlled news. Each side carefully controlled war news. It was unpatriotic to question this....we were in a war for our lives...we'll question our news controls after its over. My mom first learned of the failed Dieppe raid in 2008

and

4) You really dont want to see the sausage made. With maybe the exception of post war Holocaust and Vietnam reports....the folks at home dont really see any war up close. I recall playing on the floor (out of their sight but within full earshot) when my dad and 2 uncles reviewed personal photos, and shared the stories only the men share among each other when they think no one hears....horrible is the kindest word....I never want to hear any of that again ....and yet I am scarred enough to say I still remember every scene ,moment and atrocity described.

The history part of war is detached and fun ...the actual fighting is an anathema to all decency....

You now have more of the history out there than those who were in it. Enjoy
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buckchuckler

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2018, 03:40:18 PM »
Going back to planes. My grandfather was a pilot for the Navy in WWII.

To his dying day he always maintained that US Naval fighters were better than the Airforce. And that Aircraft Carriers was why the US beat Japan.

I think that is basically fact.

The Aircraft carrier part at least.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 04:09:45 PM by buckchuckler »

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2018, 04:01:16 PM »
Houston, that explains a lot. Always wondered why my grandfather never told me anything about his time in WWII.

Granted I was only 10 when he died so I was a bit young, but according to my dad, he didn't tell him anything either. Just refused to make it a discussion.

The very few things I know.

1. He flew fighter planes for the Navy
2. He enlisted straight away in 1940, but was only 16 at the time so he had to use a fake birthday and name (Makes finding his records an absolute pain in the ass)
3. He was in combat. Said he shot planes down but never said how many.

Other then that, it's a complete mystery.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 04:06:45 PM by ChitownSpaceForRent »

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2018, 04:01:49 PM »
Yeah, got a couple of crazy stories in the family from that time period. He had an appointment to West Point in 1942 but declined it because he was afraid he'd miss the war. His brother(my grandfather) had an appointment to the Naval Academy in 1940 but turned it down to enlist so he wouldn't miss the coming war. As a result he was serving on the USS Augusta when Roosevelt met Churchill to draft the Atlantic Charter. In fact, he was assigned to walk Fala, Roosevelt's dog, on that trip. He then end up in the Pacific where in 1943 he was lost at sea for 3 weeks after the plane he was flying in went down, he was sent to Chicago to recover where he met my grandmother(that old chestnut) and then in June of 1945 he joined the USS Missouri so he was on-board when the Japanese formally surrendered.

My great grandfather(other side of the family) was a forward radar operator in the Pacific and by random circumstance ended up right behind MacArthur (standing on a landing craft) in Leyte Gulf.

In my parents house there are pictures of my grandfather with Fala, and him on the deck of the Missouri as the Japanese surrender party come on board and my great grandfather behind MacArthur.....really weird set of circumstances to put them in historical moments.

That sounds like historical fiction, where the characters keep showing up at big events.  But this was real.  Super cool.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2018, 04:03:26 PM »
I'd reserve that for the ball turret gunner...tiny dude hanging 30,000 feet in the air

Yes, I used the wrong gunner.

They had to be 5'6" or shorter to "qualify" for ball turret gunner.  Lucky basterds.

muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2018, 04:09:34 PM »
100 years ago this fall my grandpa fell /almost dead at Verdun in WW I.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54790.msg959347#msg959347

My Dad was in WW2 in So Pacific, and my uncle was at Wheeler field during the first wave of the Pearl Harbor attack, and another uncle worked behind Jap lines, scouting occupied islands for the OSS (precursor to the CIA).

BUT.....You all here know and can study more of these wars than any of them.
Why?

1) You just dont talk about it.... those of you that tried will attest that the guys who saw the worst even when prodded would not talk about it. It was drilled into them as soldiers to be close lipped and even on muster out silence was encouraged for coping and moving on.

2) There were real secrets... The cold war fell almost immediately after WW2 and everyone tended to declare everything a secret. Many docus coming out now are accurate in touting "Never before seen records"

3)Propaganda controlled news. Each side carefully controlled war news. It was unpatriotic to question this....we were in a war for our lives...we'll question our news controls after its over. My mom first learned of the failed Dieppe raid in 2008

and

4) You really dont want to see the sausage made. With maybe the exception of post war Holocaust and Vietnam reports....the folks at home dont really see any war up close. I recall playing on the floor (out of their sight but within full earshot) when my dad and 2 uncles reviewed personal photos, and shared the stories only the men share among each other when they think no one hears....horrible is the kindest word....I never want to hear any of that again ....and yet I am scarred enough to say I still remember every scene ,moment and atrocity described.

The history part of war is detached and fun ...the actual fighting is an anathema to all decency....

You now have more of the history out there than those who were in it. Enjoy

My uncle was in the battle of the Bulge. Never talked about it. Being German American I would not be surprised if he shot some 2nd or 3rd cousin.

Jockey

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2018, 05:00:51 PM »

1) You just dont talk about it.... those of you that tried will attest that the guys who saw the worst even when prodded would not talk about it. It was drilled into them as soldiers to be close lipped and even on muster out silence was encouraged for coping and moving on.


PTSD was not even considered back then and "real" men did not talk about psychological issues.

As a kid growing up, there were neighborhood bars every couple blocks. Peeking in the doors, it was usually just guys sitting alone drinking. I didn't realize until years later, that these bars were populated in a large part by guys just trying to get out of their own heads in the years after the war.

warriorchick

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2018, 05:31:30 PM »
My uncle was in the battle of the Bulge. Never talked about it. Being German American I would not be surprised if he shot some 2nd or 3rd cousin.

My uncle Norman stormed the beach at Normandy. My cousin, his daughter, was born soon afterwards, and was named, you guessed it, Normandy.

Normandy and Norman are no longer with us, but last Veterans day, his other daughter showed me a shadow box they had made of his official photo and his medals. I noticed a purple heart an a bronze star among them, and I asked what the stories were behind them.

She replied, "Oh, I don't know;he never talked about that stuff."
Have some patience, FFS.

HouWarrior

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2018, 05:52:14 PM »
PTSD was not even considered back then and "real" men did not talk about psychological issues.

As a kid growing up, there were neighborhood bars every couple blocks. Peeking in the doors, it was usually just guys sitting alone drinking. I didn't realize until years later, that these bars were populated in a large part by guys just trying to get out of their own heads in the years after the war.

Yup.

My uncle in the OSS spent most of the war behind Jap lines scouting, at night,  on the islands we hoped to invade (he carried and killed in the dark ...armed only with a knife and/or garrote, ....all hand to hand...brutal commando stuff) so .......

at muster out in '45.....he collected a then huge amount of back pay....but his mind had not recovered

As my mom explained ....he bought the fanciest car he could...and then he spent the next 6 months on a non stop drinking binge...until the $$ ran out. Truth is he worked and raised a family...but he never beat the bottle...it became his quiet place. Classic PTSD
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real chili 83

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2018, 07:54:55 PM »
My dentist and neighbor was a bronze star recipient for actions in Europe.  Never would have known it.

Neighbor three doors down helped create the atomic bomb, and was in one of the first planes over Hiroshima after the drop.  Used to shovel his driveway and watched his house when they vacationed over the winter. Never would have known that.

My wife's uncle was at Bastogne.  Started talking to him one day about it. He told me about the Germans, and Patton arriving. One of his jobs was to write to the parents of fallen soldiers.  Later that day, his three sons came to me and said their dad never told them those stories.

MU82

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2018, 10:05:44 PM »
PTSD was not even considered back then and "real" men did not talk about psychological issues.

As a kid growing up, there were neighborhood bars every couple blocks. Peeking in the doors, it was usually just guys sitting alone drinking. I didn't realize until years later, that these bars were populated in a large part by guys just trying to get out of their own heads in the years after the war.

This post is sad but true, brand.

“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2018, 11:45:44 PM »
When my dad had his stroke, I used to visit him every night in rehab. Being the "mistake" of the family by quite a distance in years, I never really asked him much about his service, and when I was school aged, war wasn't discussed because Vietnam was on-going.  If he ever talked about his service, it was about the historic sights he saw, never the war.

I knew he was in DDay and in Western Europe, that he served in Military Government, and had a bunch of medals. Mainly from my mom. When "Saving Private Ryan" came out, I asked him if he had wanted me to take him and his response was "why would I want to relive the worst day of my life".  Other than that, I only knew he had a locked safe with "momentos" in it.

Fast forward 60 years from DDay and I am in his rehab room and he is talking a little more. The places he saw, some odd stories of war (Me: Did you ever kill anything/one?  Him: A cow in the woods who didn't stop when I yelled halt during the Battle of the Bulge. Or "as we moved into Paris, I dug my fox hole at night and woke up in the morning in the Garden of Versailles). What's in the safe?  Newspapers, photos, papers and medals, "your mom made me sell the Nazi gun, armband and knife" (which is why it was locked). Lots of color commentary.

Unfortunately, he had another stroke in rehab and passed. Gaining access to his safe, and with his stories and the internet, I was able to timeline his service.

He was 25, single and living in Washington DC when he was drafted right after Pearl Harbor (from his draft card), taking night courses at Georgetown and GW. Because he wore glasses, he was assigned to the Quartermaster Core where he was an ambulance driver at Fitzsimons Hospital in Denver (he was Army). He would drive to South Dakota to pick up injured servicemen from Africa and Italy to take to the hospital in Denver.

Between runs, he was bored. At the same time, the Quartermaster Core started up Military Government, MP, spy networks, etc. So he signed for courses in German, French, government, managing scripts, policing, etc., and joined Military Government.

About 6-8 months before DDay, he was transferred to England where he was assigned to SHAEF as part of the invasion planning. SHAEF was comprised of all the Allied armies. He was bordered at the house of an English comrade, who was wounded at Dunkirk. I only got this info as he sent my parents a Christmas card every year and his wedding present to my parents (bookends from the bombed House of Parliament) sat in our library, so he would talk when asked about that.

In his material was his army map with the towns he was assigned to set up new governments (circled). Since he was in SHAEF, he would be assigned to various Allied armies, not all American. Always Infantry. Always front line. Via the internet, I could recreate a timeline of the armies in each of his towns/cities where he was to set up new governments.

Vierville, St. Lo, Mortain, Paris, Brussels, Luxembourg City, Ettelbrook, over the Rhine into Germany, ending in Frankfort. Vierville, his DDay destination was Private Ryan Beach (no wonder he didn't want to see the movie). St. Lo is where the Germans dug in and the Americans bombed their own.  He was there front line. Mortain, where the Germans counter attacked with Panzers and a small battalion held out while Patton went around and drove the Germans into Paris (front and center). Paris, where the French took the city. On through the rest of France, Belgium, Holland, Luxemberg where he was caught 60 miles behind lines at the Battle of the Bulge (he said he walked backwards to hide his tracks in the snow into the beet stacks to stay warm at night and was more afraid of the green US replacements) and into Germany over the Rhine where the Germans bombed the bridge soon after he crossed. Then into Frankfort where he liberated labor camps and collected stolen antiquities in caves.

After the surrender, he had to process the German POWs and Displaced Persons. All the way he was working in advance with the Underground to weed out to collaborators, set up the new government, script, and basic services before moving on.  I know this from a copy of the official journal he kept required for the Army records and a copy was given to them by his Australian CO at the war's end with the inscription:  "I hope we made a little difference".

His photos reflected his pleasant memories he shared with us growing up. Pictures of castles, artwork, historic sights, his buddies relaxing. On the back he wrote "this is my buddy Sammy the Wop" or "this is the 14 year old French Underground member who has been with us from Normandy into Germany--and the Krauts have a contract out on".  With the timeline, you realized these were only shot with one day's break in the action.

Then, the medals. Croix de Gruerre with the signed paperwork in ink by De Gauile.  (My dad did say he pinned it on him and kissed him in on each cheek). Five bronze star bars (which I learned later would qualify as a Silver but the records warehouse burned), and one from each major battle, always on the front line.

With the timeline and documents, you also realize he never got a Leave. You also realize only one of his army buddies survived with him start to end. His was rotated from Army to Army, and it wasn't until after the surrender that he had stability. Then, as he was in Miltary Government, he had to stay six more months post-war. Basically, 5+ years of straight combat service.

He (plus his generation) literally brought democracy to the world and we never knew it. He had his stroke on the morning that he was supposed to go to the Daley Center with other DDay vets to pick up a commemoration from the French Ambassador. I miss him every day.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 12:30:22 AM by Dr. Blackheart »

Hards Alumni

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2018, 08:37:53 AM »
If you're looking for a REALLY cool twitter handle to follow, I highly recommend the one I will link below.  It puts out tweets as if the war was happening that day.  It resets when the war resets... meaning it will take 7 years for the entire war to play out in real time on twitter.  The person that does this does a simply INCREDIBLE job.  Currently, the year is 1940, so we're sort of still close to the start of WWII.

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII

DegenerateDish

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2018, 09:17:26 AM »
My sister started dating a nice young man six years ago. When they first started dating, my mom mentioned that his great grandfather was of some significant historical importance. They kept dating and got married two years ago. My sister’s new last name? MacArthur.

I’ve asked my brother-in-law if he had heard any stories at all passed down from his grandfather or dad, but like others have shared, nothing, apparently it was/has never been talked about in his family.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2018, 04:33:35 PM »
If you're looking for a REALLY cool twitter handle to follow, I highly recommend the one I will link below.  It puts out tweets as if the war was happening that day.  It resets when the war resets... meaning it will take 7 years for the entire war to play out in real time on twitter.  The person that does this does a simply INCREDIBLE job.  Currently, the year is 1940, so we're sort of still close to the start of WWII.

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII

Pssst...the war started in 1939. Official US involvement started in 1941.  American history classes teach it wrong when they say the war started in 1941.

Edit: I think I read it wrong the first time. Mea culpa.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 07:42:18 PM by Lazar's Canadian Bacon Headband »

HouWarrior

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2018, 05:59:18 PM »
Pssst...the war started in 1939. Official US involvement started in 1941.  American history classes teach it wrong when they say the war started in 1941.
Pssst .....Why did you post?......as, there is no inaccuracy in hards post....ie :

1)he's right...the war lasted about 7 years (japanese/chinese battles pre date european hostilities), and
2) he's right....1940 was close to its start....it includes the phony war period....
so....there is nothing wrong with the quoted post

BUT ....anyway....thanks for reminding all of us of USA declaration of war in December 1941
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Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2018, 07:41:07 PM »
Pssst .....Why did you post?......as, there is no inaccuracy in hards post....ie :

1)he's right...the war lasted about 7 years (japanese/chinese battles pre date european hostilities), and
2) he's right....1940 was close to its start....it includes the phony war period....
so....there is nothing wrong with the quoted post

BUT ....anyway....thanks for reminding all of us of USA declaration of war in December 1941

On 2nd thought, I think I misread his previous post.  I thought he meant "close to the start" as in the war is about to start.

Hards probably meant that the war just started.  I apologize for the error.

Hards Alumni

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2018, 09:22:49 AM »
On 2nd thought, I think I misread his previous post.  I thought he meant "close to the start" as in the war is about to start.

Hards probably meant that the war just started.  I apologize for the error.

Correct, no worries!

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2018, 05:02:49 AM »
Correct, no worries!
:-X

I type this from Dusseldorf, maybe the first visit to Germany by someone from my family since my great uncle who crossed Europe after landing on Omaha on day one (with his twin brother no less).  Along the way he eventually ended up in Bergesgarten where he took the keys to the front door.  He said he figured Hitler didn't need them anymore.  Saving Private Ryan and similar movies would give him nightmares for a month.  I had another great uncle who fought in Italy and another in Guadacanal.  None of them would ever talk about the war.
Finland they weren't so much with Germany as there were against the Soviets.
My wife's great uncle is a separate story for another post.

muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2018, 12:25:46 PM »
Here is my dad on the right fishing in Alaska.

muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2018, 12:29:19 PM »
Here is another sweeping snow in May 1944.

GGGG

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2018, 12:30:54 PM »
The New York Times published a story yesterday that seems relevant to this topic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/us/marines-mystery-herman-mulligan.html

These stories always make me wistful, mostly because of lines like this:

"In the years after the war, he was reclassified as “unrecoverable,” and the family that knew him gradually died off, until his memory was almost as lost as his bones."

The Lens

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2018, 01:01:59 PM »

4) You really dont want to see the sausage made. With maybe the exception of post war Holocaust and Vietnam reports....the folks at home dont really see any war up close. I recall playing on the floor (out of their sight but within full earshot) when my dad and 2 uncles reviewed personal photos, and shared the stories only the men share among each other when they think no one hears....horrible is the kindest word....I never want to hear any of that again ....and yet I am scarred enough to say I still remember every scene ,moment and atrocity described.

The history part of war is detached and fun ...the actual fighting is an anathema to all decency....

You now have more of the history out there than those who were in it. Enjoy

I have an uncle who lives in a group home at the VA.  He was drafted into Vietnam during his first year at MU Law School.  He was never the same.  Nothing disturbs me more than these "Veterans of the Game" salutes at sporting events all over the country.  Its nice that we are honoring the men and women who serve our country but its despicable at best that pro franchises take money from your Local Steamfitters 175 and profit off fans thanking a service person.   To many men and women made the ultimate sacrifice and seeing groups profit off of patriotism just infuriates me.

Sorry for the rant.

Amazing stories by HOU, Eng03, Blackheart and more.  Props to all of your family members for their service.
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History is so valuable if you have the humility to learn from it.    ---- Shaka Smart

Schmidtyfactor

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2018, 01:43:17 PM »
My grandfather was a fighter pilot in WWII, flying mostly Spitfires and I believe later some Mustangs. He was recognized as an Ace with 7 confirmed hits. He retired as a Colonel having been passed over several times for General. He ended his career leading a division that oversaw the entire Eastern Seaboard during the Cold War.
**
Colonel Hill (1919 – 2012) was an American veteran who served in the U.S. Army Air Corps and the U.S. Air Force. He primarily taught himself to fly gliders as early as 1937. He flew 166 combat missions during World War II, fighting in France, North Africa, Sicily, and Italy. He became the 31st Fighter Group's first 'ace', flying British Spitfires. During his 30-year career he served as the senior air instructor for the New York Air National Guard, served as director of operations at Air Defense Command in Colorado, and was commander of the 33rd Air Division in Virginia.

His decorations include the Silver Star, the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Medal with 19 Oak Leaf Clusters, the Legion of Merit with two Oak Leaf Clusters, and five Air Force Commendation Medals. In 1969, he retired at the rank of Colonel. Col. Hill was inducted into the New Jersey Aviation Hall of Fame in 1992 and he was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal posthumously in 2015. The  Hill Causeway at the Woodcliff Lake Reservoir (NJ) was dedicated July 21, 2017. The dedication was a joint effort by Suez Water and the Borough of Hillsdale, NJ.
**

His Silver Star Citation reads:

In North Africa, while participating in aerial flight against the enemy on 6 May 1943, Major Hill distinguished himself by heroism and gallantry in action. At approximately 1200 hours, Major Hill was leading his squadron on a fighter sweep on the enemy's forward landing grounds in the Tunis area. Near Pont du Fahs, the squadron encountered six (6) ME-109's at 14,000 feet. In an engagement lasting fifteen (15) minutes, Major Hill succeeded in destroying two (2) of the enemy aircraft. At approximately 1630 hours of the same day, Major Hill was again flying with his squadron on a fighter sweep of the battle area. In the vicinity of Oudna, at 5,000 feet, the squadron encountered sixteen (16) ME-109's and Macchi 202's. During the engagement which followed, Major Hill attacked three (3) enemy aircraft flying in line astern. By skillfully pressing his attack, he damaged the lead plane, probably destroyed the second and damaged the third. During the same engagement, other pilots of the squadron destroyed four (4) of the enemy aircraft without loss to themselves. By destroying two (2), probably destroying one (1), and damaging two (2) enemy aircraft in one day's operations, Major Hill performed a feat of great skill and heroism at a time when destruction of enemy fighters were especially important, since the final drive of the North African Campaign was just beginning. Such actions reflect great credit upon himself and upon the Military Service of the United States. It is certain that such heroic deeds serve as an example of courage and heroism to all members of our armed forces.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2018, 02:57:29 PM »
My father served in Germany in 1946-47. He was basically a stable-boy at a military hospital where many officers rode horses to conserve petrol.

I feel so inadequate reading others' stories (teal just in case)

The Lens

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2018, 03:46:48 PM »
My uncle was in the battle of the Bulge. Never talked about it. Being German American I would not be surprised if he shot some 2nd or 3rd cousin.

My Grandpa was a Medic in the Battle of the Bulge.  He was 50% German and refused to acknowledge that part of his ancestry after he came home.  He was disgusted by it.  Hating his German ancestry was the most my Dad / Uncles ever got out of him regarding the War.
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HouWarrior

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2018, 05:24:00 PM »
My Grandpa was a Medic in the Battle of the Bulge.  He was 50% German and refused to acknowledge that part of his ancestry after he came home.  He was disgusted by it.  Hating his German ancestry was the most my Dad / Uncles ever got out of him regarding the War.
Not every of my relatives were accorded deference and admiration in their service. Not all war stories are admiration, guts and glory.

As a kid I was never encouraged to play with a particular cousin from South Dakota. Even though he joined the Navy as  a medic, during Vietnam my dad (also a Navy man )surprisingly would put him down behind his back , for not having the guts to fight.  Honestly, I had no idea why this was....it all seemed very mean and unfair.....as I learned more later in life.

Turns out my cousin was gay. Not wanting to actively fight...he joined the Navy medics. This was well before dont ask dont tell....many more gays have served than you realize.

Poor Cuz...the Marines lacked a medical dept, and Navy Corpsmen were assigned to Marine Units. My dad put him down, but truth is my Cuz saw horrible action on lots of patrols with many many wounded Marines during his two tours. The NVA and VC loved to target Medics.

He later became a male nurse and still is one today. And yes my dad was just plain prejudiced/ignorant
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2018, 10:30:59 PM »
Great stories.  I encourage every one who likes history to tour Normandy. It is very complicated.

That said, we should start a Vietnam thread.  Again, Burns did an unbelievable job.  Such heroes.

mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2018, 08:37:04 AM »
I think the crazy thing about the WWII service generation is that you really can't overhype their selflessness in the war and conversely some of the negative impact post-war. Sure there were bad eggs, grifters, and draft dodgers but almost universally everyone served to their maximum capacity and saw some really terrible $hit and then came back and went back to whatever it was they did. Clearly it was also a generation changed based on how they dealt with what they saw and what it did to the boomer generation.

Playing junior psychologist I can see the impact within my own family, my grandparents became functional alcoholics after the war, especially my grandfather and you can trace the impact to my mom in the stories she tells and how she looks back on her childhood (tells a funny story about being sent to the local liquor store for booze and cigarettes on a Tuesday when she was 10). It's weird to say, but I think that generation's selflessness was directly responsible for the erosion of selflessness in later generations.
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jsglow

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2018, 10:29:02 AM »
I think the crazy thing about the WWII service generation is that you really can't overhype their selflessness in the war and conversely some of the negative impact post-war. Sure there were bad eggs, grifters, and draft dodgers but almost universally everyone served to their maximum capacity and saw some really terrible $hit and then came back and went back to whatever it was they did. Clearly it was also a generation changed based on how they dealt with what they saw and what it did to the boomer generation.

Playing junior psychologist I can see the impact within my own family, my grandparents became functional alcoholics after the war, especially my grandfather and you can trace the impact to my mom in the stories she tells and how she looks back on her childhood (tells a funny story about being sent to the local liquor store for booze and cigarettes on a Tuesday when she was 10). It's weird to say, but I think that generation's selflessness was directly responsible for the erosion of selflessness in later generations.

Eng, help me out here.  Your gramps was born what year?  Your mom?  I'm thinking you were about '82, yes?

I think there's lots of factors going on.  My parents were born during the early part of the depression.  So their first 15 or so years were totally shaped by near poverty (especially in the case of my dad; mom was certainly middle class) and the deprivation associated with war.  They were born about a decade before my inlaws who were part of the early 'rock n roll 1950/60s' generation.  I personally see the seismic shift that took place during a relatively short period of time based in part on that experience.

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2018, 11:28:47 AM »
When my dad had his stroke, I used to visit him every night in rehab. Being the "mistake" of the family by quite a distance in years, I never really asked him much about his service, and when I was school aged, war wasn't discussed because Vietnam was on-going.  If he ever talked about his service, it was about the historic sights he saw, never the war...
Really great story Dr.

It leaves me wondering, why did he have to be in the front lines?  Presumably you can't set up a new government until after the fighting is done.?
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mu03eng

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2018, 11:59:24 AM »
Eng, help me out here.  Your gramps was born what year?  Your mom?  I'm thinking you were about '82, yes?

I think there's lots of factors going on.  My parents were born during the early part of the depression.  So their first 15 or so years were totally shaped by near poverty (especially in the case of my dad; mom was certainly middle class) and the deprivation associated with war.  They were born about a decade before my inlaws who were part of the early 'rock n roll 1950/60s' generation.  I personally see the seismic shift that took place during a relatively short period of time based in part on that experience.

He was born in 1921 I think and then my mom was born in 49 (oldest of 3) and I was born in 80 as the oldest.....we're apparently a family of late to the lids party types  :)
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muwarrior69

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2018, 12:46:30 PM »
My Mom and Dad met in the service. Like most of the 16 million that served they were both fortunate to not have seen combat though as I mentioned previously my dad flew support missions over the Aleutians while stationed in Alaska. I am thankful that my parents and aunts and uncles that served were not adversely affected by the war and our families proudly display the flags we received at their funerals for their service and love of country.


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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2018, 01:05:36 PM »
Great stories.  I encourage every one who likes history to tour Normandy. It is very complicated.

That said, we should start a Vietnam thread.  Again, Burns did an unbelievable job.  Such heroes.

I visited Normandy as a high school student in 1986.  I watched The Longest Day before the trip and was thankful to see where my great uncle landed.  (He commented afterwards that he's sure it's a much nicer place now.)
One of the most eerie places I've ever visited only beaten by Auschwitz (which I'm visiting again this summer.  We want our kids to see and understand inhumanity.)

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2018, 01:33:33 PM »
Not every of my relatives were accorded deference and admiration in their service. Not all war stories are admiration, guts and glory.

As a kid I was never encouraged to play with a particular cousin from South Dakota. Even though he joined the Navy as  a medic, during Vietnam my dad (also a Navy man )surprisingly would put him down behind his back , for not having the guts to fight.  Honestly, I had no idea why this was....it all seemed very mean and unfair.....as I learned more later in life.

Turns out my cousin was gay. Not wanting to actively fight...he joined the Navy medics. This was well before dont ask dont tell....many more gays have served than you realize.

Poor Cuz...the Marines lacked a medical dept, and Navy Corpsmen were assigned to Marine Units. My dad put him down, but truth is my Cuz saw horrible action on lots of patrols with many many wounded Marines during his two tours. The NVA and VC loved to target Medics.


My dad joined the navy out of high school and became a corpsman thinking he was going into a medical profession after service.  He served in 64 & 65.  A friend of my dads said he spent the time waterskiing in Jacksonville, FL.  Regardless, he considered re-enlisting, but saw how bad guys were shot up and heard the VC targeted corpsman knowing he'd be sent ashore with the Marines with the war heating up if he re-enlisted.  My mom was very thankful. 
What he saw must have been really bad because he became something completely different, a computer analyst.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2018, 08:22:42 PM »
Really great story Dr.

It leaves me wondering, why did he have to be in the front lines?  Presumably you can't set up a new government until after the fighting is done.?

He was working in advance with the French Underground.  They knew the collaborators going in who needed to be rounded up and who they were going to set up in the new government. They had to restore order immediately and services, set up Army Command, clear roads, issue new money, arrange for food and water. The army may move on in pursuit but they were to set up shop in his assigned city.

Remember, it was French neighbor vs. neighbor in many cases. The scars are still there today in these Normandy towns I hear.

jutaw22mu

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2018, 09:04:28 PM »
The New York Times published a story yesterday that seems relevant to this topic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/us/marines-mystery-herman-mulligan.html

These stories always make me wistful, mostly because of lines like this:

"In the years after the war, he was reclassified as “unrecoverable,” and the family that knew him gradually died off, until his memory was almost as lost as his bones."

Thanks for sharing this story.

jutaw22mu

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2018, 09:24:08 PM »
My grandfather, the little guy on the left, served in the Pacific and was a medic during the war.  I don't know of any great stories from the war because he didn't talk about it, but I know he refused to buy Japanese goods/cars or eat Asian food his whole life.

Before the war he became an orphan at 3 yrs old because his parents were victims of the flu.  His uncle sent him and his siblings to live in an orphanage. After he graduated high school, the only this he got from his uncle was a car.  He drove around the country for a year doing odd jobs to make money. He got called back to his uncles house and found out he had been drafted.

After the war he went to University of New Orleans on the GI bill, then Marquette for graduate school.  He met my grandmother at MU, most likely all because he served in the war!!!

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: WWII discussion
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2018, 09:48:03 PM »
My grandfather, the little guy on the left, served in the Pacific and was a medic during the war.  I don't know of any great stories from the war because he didn't talk about it, but I know he refused to buy Japanese goods/cars or eat Asian food his whole life.

My grandfather was the same way. Refused to buy any Japanese goods from cars to anything Nintendo.