WWII discussion

[MU82]

PTSD was not even considered back then and "real" men did not talk about psychological issues.

As a kid growing up, there were neighborhood bars every couple blocks. Peeking in the doors, it was usually just guys sitting alone drinking. I didn't realize until years later, that these bars were populated in a large part by guys just trying to get out of their own heads in the years after the war.

This post is sad but true, brand.

[Dr. Blackheart]

When my dad had his stroke, I used to visit him every night in rehab. Being the "mistake" of the family by quite a distance in years, I never really asked him much about his service, and when I was school aged, war wasn't discussed because Vietnam was on-going.  If he ever talked about his service, it was about the historic sights he saw, never the war.

I knew he was in DDay and in Western Europe, that he served in Military Government, and had a bunch of medals. Mainly from my mom. When "Saving Private Ryan" came out, I asked him if he had wanted me to take him and his response was "why would I want to relive the worst day of my life".  Other than that, I only knew he had a locked safe with "momentos" in it.

Fast forward 60 years from DDay and I am in his rehab room and he is talking a little more. The places he saw, some odd stories of war (Me: Did you ever kill anything/one?  Him: A cow in the woods who didn't stop when I yelled halt during the Battle of the Bulge. Or "as we moved into Paris, I dug my fox hole at night and woke up in the morning in the Garden of Versailles). What's in the safe?  Newspapers, photos, papers and medals, "your mom made me sell the Nazi gun, armband and knife" (which is why it was locked). Lots of color commentary.

Unfortunately, he had another stroke in rehab and passed. Gaining access to his safe, and with his stories and the internet, I was able to timeline his service.

He was 25, single and living in Washington DC when he was drafted right after Pearl Harbor (from his draft card), taking night courses at Georgetown and GW. Because he wore glasses, he was assigned to the Quartermaster Core where he was an ambulance driver at Fitzsimons Hospital in Denver (he was Army). He would drive to South Dakota to pick up injured servicemen from Africa and Italy to take to the hospital in Denver.

Between runs, he was bored. At the same time, the Quartermaster Core started up Military Government, MP, spy networks, etc. So he signed for courses in German, French, government, managing scripts, policing, etc., and joined Military Government.

About 6-8 months before DDay, he was transferred to England where he was assigned to SHAEF as part of the invasion planning. SHAEF was comprised of all the Allied armies. He was bordered at the house of an English comrade, who was wounded at Dunkirk. I only got this info as he sent my parents a Christmas card every year and his wedding present to my parents (bookends from the bombed House of Parliament) sat in our library, so he would talk when asked about that.

In his material was his army map with the towns he was assigned to set up new governments (circled). Since he was in SHAEF, he would be assigned to various Allied armies, not all American. Always Infantry. Always front line. Via the internet, I could recreate a timeline of the armies in each of his towns/cities where he was to set up new governments.

Vierville, St. Lo, Mortain, Paris, Brussels, Luxembourg City, Ettelbrook, over the Rhine into Germany, ending in Frankfort. Vierville, his DDay destination was Private Ryan Beach (no wonder he didn't want to see the movie). St. Lo is where the Germans dug in and the Americans bombed their own.  He was there front line. Mortain, where the Germans counter attacked with Panzers and a small battalion held out while Patton went around and drove the Germans into Paris (front and center). Paris, where the French took the city. On through the rest of France, Belgium, Holland, Luxemberg where he was caught 60 miles behind lines at the Battle of the Bulge (he said he walked backwards to hide his tracks in the snow into the beet stacks to stay warm at night and was more afraid of the green US replacements) and into Germany over the Rhine where the Germans bombed the bridge soon after he crossed. Then into Frankfort where he liberated labor camps and collected stolen antiquities in caves.

After the surrender, he had to process the German POWs and Displaced Persons. All the way he was working in advance with the Underground to weed out to collaborators, set up the new government, script, and basic services before moving on.  I know this from a copy of the official journal he kept required for the Army records and a copy was given to them by his Australian CO at the war's end with the inscription:  "I hope we made a little difference".

His photos reflected his pleasant memories he shared with us growing up. Pictures of castles, artwork, historic sights, his buddies relaxing. On the back he wrote "this is my buddy Sammy the Wop" or "this is the 14 year old French Underground member who has been with us from Normandy into Germany--and the Krauts have a contract out on".  With the timeline, you realized these were only shot with one day's break in the action.

Then, the medals. Croix de Gruerre with the signed paperwork in ink by De Gauile.  (My dad did say he pinned it on him and kissed him in on each cheek). Five bronze star bars (which I learned later would qualify as a Silver but the records warehouse burned), and one from each major battle, always on the front line.

With the timeline and documents, you also realize he never got a Leave. You also realize only one of his army buddies survived with him start to end. His was rotated from Army to Army, and it wasn't until after the surrender that he had stability. Then, as he was in Miltary Government, he had to stay six more months post-war. Basically, 5+ years of straight combat service.

He (plus his generation) literally brought democracy to the world and we never knew it. He had his stroke on the morning that he was supposed to go to the Daley Center with other DDay vets to pick up a commemoration from the French Ambassador. I miss him every day.

[Hards Alumni]

If you're looking for a REALLY cool twitter handle to follow, I highly recommend the one I will link below.  It puts out tweets as if the war was happening that day.  It resets when the war resets... meaning it will take 7 years for the entire war to play out in real time on twitter.  The person that does this does a simply INCREDIBLE job.  Currently, the year is 1940, so we're sort of still close to the start of WWII.

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII

[DegenerateDish]

My sister started dating a nice young man six years ago. When they first started dating, my mom mentioned that his great grandfather was of some significant historical importance. They kept dating and got married two years ago. My sister’s new last name? MacArthur.

I’ve asked my brother-in-law if he had heard any stories at all passed down from his grandfather or dad, but like others have shared, nothing, apparently it was/has never been talked about in his family.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

If you're looking for a REALLY cool twitter handle to follow, I highly recommend the one I will link below.  It puts out tweets as if the war was happening that day.  It resets when the war resets... meaning it will take 7 years for the entire war to play out in real time on twitter.  The person that does this does a simply INCREDIBLE job.  Currently, the year is 1940, so we're sort of still close to the start of WWII.

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII

Pssst...the war started in 1939. Official US involvement started in 1941.  American history classes teach it wrong when they say the war started in 1941.

Edit: I think I read it wrong the first time. Mea culpa.

[HouWarrior]

Pssst...the war started in 1939. Official US involvement started in 1941.  American history classes teach it wrong when they say the war started in 1941.

Pssst .....Why did you post?......as, there is no inaccuracy in hards post....ie :

1)he's right...the war lasted about 7 years (japanese/chinese battles pre date european hostilities), and
2) he's right....1940 was close to its start....it includes the phony war period....
so....there is nothing wrong with the quoted post

BUT ....anyway....thanks for reminding all of us of USA declaration of war in December 1941

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Pssst .....Why did you post?......as, there is no inaccuracy in hards post....ie :

1)he's right...the war lasted about 7 years (japanese/chinese battles pre date european hostilities), and
2) he's right....1940 was close to its start....it includes the phony war period....
so....there is nothing wrong with the quoted post

BUT ....anyway....thanks for reminding all of us of USA declaration of war in December 1941

On 2nd thought, I think I misread his previous post.  I thought he meant "close to the start" as in the war is about to start.

Hards probably meant that the war just started.  I apologize for the error.

[Hards Alumni]

On 2nd thought, I think I misread his previous post.  I thought he meant "close to the start" as in the war is about to start.

Hards probably meant that the war just started.  I apologize for the error.

Correct, no worries!

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Correct, no worries!

I type this from Dusseldorf, maybe the first visit to Germany by someone from my family since my great uncle who crossed Europe after landing on Omaha on day one (with his twin brother no less).  Along the way he eventually ended up in Bergesgarten where he took the keys to the front door.  He said he figured Hitler didn't need them anymore.  Saving Private Ryan and similar movies would give him nightmares for a month.  I had another great uncle who fought in Italy and another in Guadacanal.  None of them would ever talk about the war.
Finland they weren't so much with Germany as there were against the Soviets.
My wife's great uncle is a separate story for another post.

[muwarrior69]

Here is my dad on the right fishing in Alaska.

[muwarrior69]

Here is another sweeping snow in May 1944.

[GGGG]

The New York Times published a story yesterday that seems relevant to this topic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/us/marines-mystery-herman-mulligan.html

These stories always make me wistful, mostly because of lines like this:

"In the years after the war, he was reclassified as “unrecoverable,” and the family that knew him gradually died off, until his memory was almost as lost as his bones."

[The Lens]

4) You really dont want to see the sausage made. With maybe the exception of post war Holocaust and Vietnam reports....the folks at home dont really see any war up close. I recall playing on the floor (out of their sight but within full earshot) when my dad and 2 uncles reviewed personal photos, and shared the stories only the men share among each other when they think no one hears....horrible is the kindest word....I never want to hear any of that again ....and yet I am scarred enough to say I still remember every scene ,moment and atrocity described.

The history part of war is detached and fun ...the actual fighting is an anathema to all decency....

You now have more of the history out there than those who were in it. Enjoy

I have an uncle who lives in a group home at the VA.  He was drafted into Vietnam during his first year at MU Law School.  He was never the same.  Nothing disturbs me more than these "Veterans of the Game" salutes at sporting events all over the country.  Its nice that we are honoring the men and women who serve our country but its despicable at best that pro franchises take money from your Local Steamfitters 175 and profit off fans thanking a service person.   To many men and women made the ultimate sacrifice and seeing groups profit off of patriotism just infuriates me.

Sorry for the rant.

Amazing stories by HOU, Eng03, Blackheart and more.  Props to all of your family members for their service.

[Schmidtyfactor]

My grandfather was a fighter pilot in WWII, flying mostly Spitfires and I believe later some Mustangs. He was recognized as an Ace with 7 confirmed hits. He retired as a Colonel having been passed over several times for General. He ended his career leading a division that oversaw the entire Eastern Seaboard during the Cold War.
**
Colonel Hill (1919 – 2012) was an American veteran who served in the U.S. Army Air Corps and the U.S. Air Force. He primarily taught himself to fly gliders as early as 1937. He flew 166 combat missions during World War II, fighting in France, North Africa, Sicily, and Italy. He became the 31st Fighter Group's first 'ace', flying British Spitfires. During his 30-year career he served as the senior air instructor for the New York Air National Guard, served as director of operations at Air Defense Command in Colorado, and was commander of the 33rd Air Division in Virginia.

His decorations include the Silver Star, the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Medal with 19 Oak Leaf Clusters, the Legion of Merit with two Oak Leaf Clusters, and five Air Force Commendation Medals. In 1969, he retired at the rank of Colonel. Col. Hill was inducted into the New Jersey Aviation Hall of Fame in 1992 and he was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal posthumously in 2015. The  Hill Causeway at the Woodcliff Lake Reservoir (NJ) was dedicated July 21, 2017. The dedication was a joint effort by Suez Water and the Borough of Hillsdale, NJ.
**

His Silver Star Citation reads:

In North Africa, while participating in aerial flight against the enemy on 6 May 1943, Major Hill distinguished himself by heroism and gallantry in action. At approximately 1200 hours, Major Hill was leading his squadron on a fighter sweep on the enemy's forward landing grounds in the Tunis area. Near Pont du Fahs, the squadron encountered six (6) ME-109's at 14,000 feet. In an engagement lasting fifteen (15) minutes, Major Hill succeeded in destroying two (2) of the enemy aircraft. At approximately 1630 hours of the same day, Major Hill was again flying with his squadron on a fighter sweep of the battle area. In the vicinity of Oudna, at 5,000 feet, the squadron encountered sixteen (16) ME-109's and Macchi 202's. During the engagement which followed, Major Hill attacked three (3) enemy aircraft flying in line astern. By skillfully pressing his attack, he damaged the lead plane, probably destroyed the second and damaged the third. During the same engagement, other pilots of the squadron destroyed four (4) of the enemy aircraft without loss to themselves. By destroying two (2), probably destroying one (1), and damaging two (2) enemy aircraft in one day's operations, Major Hill performed a feat of great skill and heroism at a time when destruction of enemy fighters were especially important, since the final drive of the North African Campaign was just beginning. Such actions reflect great credit upon himself and upon the Military Service of the United States. It is certain that such heroic deeds serve as an example of courage and heroism to all members of our armed forces.

[Spotcheck Billy]

My father served in Germany in 1946-47. He was basically a stable-boy at a military hospital where many officers rode horses to conserve petrol.

I feel so inadequate reading others' stories (teal just in case)

[The Lens]

My uncle was in the battle of the Bulge. Never talked about it. Being German American I would not be surprised if he shot some 2nd or 3rd cousin.

My Grandpa was a Medic in the Battle of the Bulge.  He was 50% German and refused to acknowledge that part of his ancestry after he came home.  He was disgusted by it.  Hating his German ancestry was the most my Dad / Uncles ever got out of him regarding the War.

[HouWarrior]

My Grandpa was a Medic in the Battle of the Bulge.  He was 50% German and refused to acknowledge that part of his ancestry after he came home.  He was disgusted by it.  Hating his German ancestry was the most my Dad / Uncles ever got out of him regarding the War.

Not every of my relatives were accorded deference and admiration in their service. Not all war stories are admiration, guts and glory.

As a kid I was never encouraged to play with a particular cousin from South Dakota. Even though he joined the Navy as  a medic, during Vietnam my dad (also a Navy man )surprisingly would put him down behind his back , for not having the guts to fight.  Honestly, I had no idea why this was....it all seemed very mean and unfair.....as I learned more later in life.

Turns out my cousin was gay. Not wanting to actively fight...he joined the Navy medics. This was well before dont ask dont tell....many more gays have served than you realize.

Poor Cuz...the Marines lacked a medical dept, and Navy Corpsmen were assigned to Marine Units. My dad put him down, but truth is my Cuz saw horrible action on lots of patrols with many many wounded Marines during his two tours. The NVA and VC loved to target Medics.

He later became a male nurse and still is one today. And yes my dad was just plain prejudiced/ignorant

[Dr. Blackheart]

Great stories.  I encourage every one who likes history to tour Normandy. It is very complicated.

That said, we should start a Vietnam thread.  Again, Burns did an unbelievable job.  Such heroes.

[mu03eng]

I think the crazy thing about the WWII service generation is that you really can't overhype their selflessness in the war and conversely some of the negative impact post-war. Sure there were bad eggs, grifters, and draft dodgers but almost universally everyone served to their maximum capacity and saw some really terrible $hit and then came back and went back to whatever it was they did. Clearly it was also a generation changed based on how they dealt with what they saw and what it did to the boomer generation.

Playing junior psychologist I can see the impact within my own family, my grandparents became functional alcoholics after the war, especially my grandfather and you can trace the impact to my mom in the stories she tells and how she looks back on her childhood (tells a funny story about being sent to the local liquor store for booze and cigarettes on a Tuesday when she was 10). It's weird to say, but I think that generation's selflessness was directly responsible for the erosion of selflessness in later generations.

[jsglow]

I think the crazy thing about the WWII service generation is that you really can't overhype their selflessness in the war and conversely some of the negative impact post-war. Sure there were bad eggs, grifters, and draft dodgers but almost universally everyone served to their maximum capacity and saw some really terrible $hit and then came back and went back to whatever it was they did. Clearly it was also a generation changed based on how they dealt with what they saw and what it did to the boomer generation.

Playing junior psychologist I can see the impact within my own family, my grandparents became functional alcoholics after the war, especially my grandfather and you can trace the impact to my mom in the stories she tells and how she looks back on her childhood (tells a funny story about being sent to the local liquor store for booze and cigarettes on a Tuesday when she was 10). It's weird to say, but I think that generation's selflessness was directly responsible for the erosion of selflessness in later generations.

Eng, help me out here.  Your gramps was born what year?  Your mom?  I'm thinking you were about '82, yes?

I think there's lots of factors going on.  My parents were born during the early part of the depression.  So their first 15 or so years were totally shaped by near poverty (especially in the case of my dad; mom was certainly middle class) and the deprivation associated with war.  They were born about a decade before my inlaws who were part of the early 'rock n roll 1950/60s' generation.  I personally see the seismic shift that took place during a relatively short period of time based in part on that experience.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

When my dad had his stroke, I used to visit him every night in rehab. Being the "mistake" of the family by quite a distance in years, I never really asked him much about his service, and when I was school aged, war wasn't discussed because Vietnam was on-going.  If he ever talked about his service, it was about the historic sights he saw, never the war...

Really great story Dr.

It leaves me wondering, why did he have to be in the front lines?  Presumably you can't set up a new government until after the fighting is done.?

[mu03eng]

Eng, help me out here.  Your gramps was born what year?  Your mom?  I'm thinking you were about '82, yes?

I think there's lots of factors going on.  My parents were born during the early part of the depression.  So their first 15 or so years were totally shaped by near poverty (especially in the case of my dad; mom was certainly middle class) and the deprivation associated with war.  They were born about a decade before my inlaws who were part of the early 'rock n roll 1950/60s' generation.  I personally see the seismic shift that took place during a relatively short period of time based in part on that experience.

He was born in 1921 I think and then my mom was born in 49 (oldest of 3) and I was born in 80 as the oldest.....we're apparently a family of late to the lids party types 

[muwarrior69]

My Mom and Dad met in the service. Like most of the 16 million that served they were both fortunate to not have seen combat though as I mentioned previously my dad flew support missions over the Aleutians while stationed in Alaska. I am thankful that my parents and aunts and uncles that served were not adversely affected by the war and our families proudly display the flags we received at their funerals for their service and love of country.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Great stories.  I encourage every one who likes history to tour Normandy. It is very complicated.

That said, we should start a Vietnam thread.  Again, Burns did an unbelievable job.  Such heroes.

I visited Normandy as a high school student in 1986.  I watched The Longest Day before the trip and was thankful to see where my great uncle landed.  (He commented afterwards that he's sure it's a much nicer place now.)
One of the most eerie places I've ever visited only beaten by Auschwitz (which I'm visiting again this summer.  We want our kids to see and understand inhumanity.)

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Not every of my relatives were accorded deference and admiration in their service. Not all war stories are admiration, guts and glory.

As a kid I was never encouraged to play with a particular cousin from South Dakota. Even though he joined the Navy as  a medic, during Vietnam my dad (also a Navy man )surprisingly would put him down behind his back , for not having the guts to fight.  Honestly, I had no idea why this was....it all seemed very mean and unfair.....as I learned more later in life.

Turns out my cousin was gay. Not wanting to actively fight...he joined the Navy medics. This was well before dont ask dont tell....many more gays have served than you realize.

Poor Cuz...the Marines lacked a medical dept, and Navy Corpsmen were assigned to Marine Units. My dad put him down, but truth is my Cuz saw horrible action on lots of patrols with many many wounded Marines during his two tours. The NVA and VC loved to target Medics.

My dad joined the navy out of high school and became a corpsman thinking he was going into a medical profession after service.  He served in 64 & 65.  A friend of my dads said he spent the time waterskiing in Jacksonville, FL.  Regardless, he considered re-enlisting, but saw how bad guys were shot up and heard the VC targeted corpsman knowing he'd be sent ashore with the Marines with the war heating up if he re-enlisted.  My mom was very thankful. 
What he saw must have been really bad because he became something completely different, a computer analyst.