I place this all on the coaching staff.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hold on, hold on. I'm working on the rebuild analysis...lots of data to go through. Hopefully something written up this weekend.

[LAZER]

Floorslapper


A year ago at this time I said that four key players would be sorely missed this season and many, if not most, disagreed. The wait to next year crowd was talking big after 'Nova last year and then making NCAA. Luke was not going to be missed, JJJ was inconsistent and Rowsey can fill in the scoring of KR. Of course they are missed and this year's team is not as good as last year, as many predicted.

I sure hope that everyone that is saying "wait until next year", remember that you set the bar of expectations. I remember the wait until next year crowd very well from this time last season. Hope they are right on Round 2 of the next year campaign.

Eh I think this is revisionist history.  Pretty sure most around here said this year would be a step back, with the possibility of making it into the tournament. But I would agree that everyone has been all-in on '18-'19 and rightfully so. We can all sit here and judge Wojo until we're blue in the face, but everyone knows it all comes down to next year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Floorslapper


A year ago at this time I said that four key players would be sorely missed this season and many, if not most, disagreed. The wait to next year crowd was talking big after 'Nova last year and then making NCAA. Luke was not going to be missed, JJJ was inconsistent and Rowsey can fill in the scoring of KR. Of course they are missed and this year's team is not as good as last year, as many predicted.

I sure hope that everyone that is saying "wait until next year", remember that you set the bar of expectations. I remember the wait until next year crowd very well from this time last season. Hope they are right on Round 2 of the next year campaign.

Very few people last season said we would be better this season. Those of us who are saying we will be better next season were the ones telling the "next year" crowd last year that they were wrong and that this would be a down year.

[Goose]

TAMU

My taking Rick's SLU team was a response to the next year crowd. J5 and others were quite excited.

[BM1090]

Floorslapper


A year ago at this time I said that four key players would be sorely missed this season and many, if not most, disagreed. The wait to next year crowd was talking big after 'Nova last year and then making NCAA. Luke was not going to be missed, JJJ was inconsistent and Rowsey can fill in the scoring of KR. Of course they are missed and this year's team is not as good as last year, as many predicted.

I sure hope that everyone that is saying "wait until next year", remember that you set the bar of expectations. I remember the wait until next year crowd very well from this time last season. Hope they are right on Round 2 of the next year campaign.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But I truly don't remember it this way at all. I remember most people being pretty sure this year would be about even with last year or a step back, and the program improving greatly in 18-19.

[Golden Avalanche]

Floorslapper


A year ago at this time I said that four key players would be sorely missed this season and many, if not most, disagreed. The wait to next year crowd was talking big after 'Nova last year and then making NCAA. Luke was not going to be missed, JJJ was inconsistent and Rowsey can fill in the scoring of KR. Of course they are missed and this year's team is not as good as last year, as many predicted.

I sure hope that everyone that is saying "wait until next year", remember that you set the bar of expectations. I remember the wait until next year crowd very well from this time last season. Hope they are right on Round 2 of the next year campaign.

Unequivocally false.  But no surprise a former supporter would be revising history to fit their narrative.

[Goose]

Golden

I am pretty certain you were one of the "experts" on the program. You had the in's and out's for both MU and SH if memory serves me. Much of next years talk began when folks bit into Matt hysteria last February. How losing Luke would not be a loss.

[GGGG]

Golden

I am pretty certain you were one of the "experts" on the program. You had the in's and out's for both MU and SH if memory serves me. Much of next years talk began when folks bit into Matt hysteria last February. How losing Luke would not be a loss.

If only this site had a search function where you could prove this...

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

TAMU

My taking Rick's SLU team was a response to the next year crowd. J5 and others were quite excited.

 False.   Just click the link in my signature. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

My taking Rick's SLU team was a response to the next year crowd. J5 and others were quite excited.

This thread is the origin of that quote:

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53475.msg897679#msg897679

The thread was started by a poster who made a joke about Father Pilarz wanting us to be the next SLU and posted an article about SLU's bus driver getting a DWI. Muguru (to no one's surprise) took the opportunity to say we had been playing as bad as SLU the last few years. A few people showed that, no that wasn't a true statement. No one mentioned anything about being better next season.

Now maybe you had that in mind when you posted it but again, very few people expected us to be better this season. And if they were people who as you said "bit into the Matt hysteria and though losing Luke would not be a loss" than that should tell you all you need to know about their basketball knowledge. Most people expected this season to be a step back with years 5 and 6 being what we are building towards.

[Goose]

J5

If memory serves me, the debate took several different angles and I was frustrated with the general direction of the program in early-mid last February. I believe I said that we would be taking a fairly big step backwards going into this season and others disagreed. Lastly, I believe I said Rick's SLU program, not team and this point in time.


TAMU

Thanks for the link. I might be old, but think there were multiple discussions regarding "next season" shortly around the 'Nova and possibly GT game.

[Goose]

Eagle

I would agree, many folks (especially TAMU) were touting '18-19 more than this year. That said, I am quite confident that many felt this year would be on par, or better, than last year. My frustration started with the anti Luke talk and the Matt excitement. At the time, I felt losing Luke and JJJ would be very hard on the program going into this year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

J5

If memory serves me, the debate took several different angles and I was frustrated with the general direction of the program in early-mid last February. I believe I said that we would be taking a fairly big step backwards going into this season and others disagreed. Lastly, I believe I said Rick's SLU program, not team and this point in time.

This is the part that I don't get Brother Goose. I would totally understand trading for one of Rick's SLU teams. He had two teams that were better than anything that Wojo has put on the court so far. But the program? Their peak was always going to be those two years. Rick was HOFer who could get the most out of anybody but the money, facilities, fanbase, conference, network, etc around him that made up the SLU program? I would hate if Marquette ever approached anything like that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Eagle

I would agree, many folks (especially TAMU) were touting '18-19 more than this year. That said, I am quite confident that many felt this year would be on par, or better, than last year. My frustration started with the anti Luke talk and the Matt excitement. At the time, I felt losing Luke and JJJ would be very hard on the program going into this year.

That is something you and I (and I think most reasonable people) can agree on. Anyone thinking that replacing Luke with Matt was going to be a net positive does not understand the sport very well.

[Goose]

TAMU

Of course I would not trade, even current program, for any SLU like program. If memory serves me, Golden and J5 were hitting me hard with optimism and calling me out for not supporting the program. I am not sure if was wades or brew, but someone was awfully high on this year's team and I felt this year was down year at best.

Whatever the case, my fingers remain crossed for next season.

Just saw your last post. Do you not remember the Luke bashing and Matt praising in Feb of last season?

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

If memory serves me, the debate took several different angles and I was frustrated with the general direction of the program in early-mid last February. I believe I said that we would be taking a fairly big step backwards going into this season and others disagreed. Lastly, I believe I said Rick's SLU program, not team and this point in time.

First of all, the program hasn't taken a big step back this year.  So you'd be wrong.  We're pretty much on par with where we were last year.

I went back and browsed through my posts from late Jan-March last year and never once did I say anything about the 17-18 team being a big improvement over 16-17.  I figured they'd be another bubble team, and I was right.  What I did see is a lot of discussion about what it would take for MU to get into the dance last season, and lots of explaining to the negative nancies that 10-8 would be comfortably in the field.  And I was right.   

[Goose]

J5

I have no gripe with you and love your love for the program. So, if we are not a bubble team on selection Sunday, will you be wrong? At this point, I do not think there will be any need to be glued to TV for selection show.

As for taking big step backwards, I do not agree, completely. I think this was simply a wasted year. I do not see an improvement YOY on any player, with exception of Sam. I do not think the freshmen improved a great deal or showed more than one game potential glimpses. And finally, we are likely to win less games this year and no big dance. In my world, that is big step backwards.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

J5

I have no gripe with you and love your love for the program. So, if we are not a bubble team on selection Sunday, will you be wrong? At this point, I do not think there will be any need to be glued to TV for selection show.

As for taking big step backwards, I do not agree, completely. I think this was simply a wasted year. I do not see an improvement YOY on any player, with exception of Sam. I do not think the freshmen improved a great deal or showed more than one game potential glimpses. And finally, we are likely to win less games this year and no big dance. In my world, that is big step backwards.

I think we'd need to go 2-3 for Selection Sunday to have no intrigue whatsoever, which I don't think will happen.  But yah, if we end up 8-10 or worse, it will be a step back, and I will be disappointed.  Pitchforks and fire wojo chants? Not so much...but definitely disappointed. Not as concerned about less wins, persay, if we still make it.  Our noncon schedule this season was more difficult, we still for some reason play 1 less noncon game that 95% of d1 teams, and the BE as a whole is tougher than last season.

I just don't think our BE schedule to this point should be completely disregarded in the analysis.  We played a very top heavy schedule, and if the BE schedule shook out a bit different (looked more like Providence's this year), I think a lot of people would feel differently, because our BE record would look better at the moment.  Now...that requires MU to actually win the games they should win the rest of the way, which is admittedly a big if at this point.

As for your second paragraph, I get it.  Markus has been a disappointment at times in the BE season.  Its frustrating that Wojo hasn't been able to figure out a way to at least be a slightly below average defensive team.   At this point, I think its a personnel issue with 2/3 best players just not being overly compatible with one another.  I don't necessarily agree that the freshman haven't improved throughout the year, but I could at least see where you're coming from there. 

[Loose Cannon]

Unequivocally false.  But no surprise a former supporter would be revising history to fit their narrative.

Yep 100% support of MU.

[WarriorDad]

Floorslapper


A year ago at this time I said that four key players would be sorely missed this season and many, if not most, disagreed. The wait to next year crowd was talking big after 'Nova last year and then making NCAA. Luke was not going to be missed, JJJ was inconsistent and Rowsey can fill in the scoring of KR. Of course they are missed and this year's team is not as good as last year, as many predicted.

I sure hope that everyone that is saying "wait until next year", remember that you set the bar of expectations. I remember the wait until next year crowd very well from this time last season. Hope they are right on Round 2 of the next year campaign.

Why would people think that way? Are you sure most felt that way?  We were picked 7th and we are in 7th.  We lost three seniors and a 4 year academic senior in Duane Wilson. We lost size, experience, leadership, along with three double digit scorers.  This was a NIT team from the start unless things broke our way.

[WarriorDad]

J5

I have no gripe with you and love your love for the program. So, if we are not a bubble team on selection Sunday, will you be wrong? At this point, I do not think there will be any need to be glued to TV for selection show.

As for taking big step backwards, I do not agree, completely. I think this was simply a wasted year. I do not see an improvement YOY on any player, with exception of Sam. I do not think the freshmen improved a great deal or showed more than one game potential glimpses. And finally, we are likely to win less games this year and no big dance. In my world, that is big step backwards.

Not that simple.  Last year's team played a pedestrian schedule.  This year's team has played a top 25 schedule according to Ken Pom and other listings.  Last year's team played an easier schedule in a conference not as good as this year's.  Currently the Big East is 2nd, just a fraction out of the top spot.   Last season, the Big East was 3rd but mathematically much further back than this year's team is to the top spot. That means a team roughly the same as last year will have a harder time equaling the same win total if the schedule is harder.  Do you disagree with this principle? 

If 2017 team has more wins than 2018 team, it could be because 2017 team is better. It can also mean 2017 team is worse, but played a more fortunate schedule. Could mean they are roughly the same, but all variables should be examined.

[Its DJOver]

Not that simple.  Last year's team played a pedestrian schedule.  This year's team has played a top 25 schedule according to Ken Pom and other listings.  Last year's team played an easier schedule in a conference not as good as this year's.  Currently the Big East is 2nd, just a fraction out of the top spot.   Last season, the Big East was 3rd but mathematically much further back than this year's team is to the top spot. That means a team roughly the same as last year will have a harder time equaling the same win total if the schedule is harder.  Do you disagree with this principle? 

If 2017 team has more wins than 2018 team, it could be because 2017 team is better. It can also mean 2017 team is worse, but played a more fortunate schedule. Could mean they are roughly the same, but all variables should be examined.

A fix to this problem is to play the exact same schedule every year and hope that all other teams neither improve or regress.  Who else would be pumped for that Mount Saint Mary's game in 2030?
Point being that you are absolutely correct, poor teams have had 20 win seasons, and good teams have had sub 20 win seasons.

[The Lens]

I think we'd need to go 2-3 for Selection Sunday to have no intrigue whatsoever, which I don't think will happen.  But yah, if we end up 8-10 or worse, it will be a step back, and I will be disappointed.  Pitchforks and fire wojo chants? Not so much...but definitely disappointed. Not as concerned about less wins, persay, if we still make it.  Our noncon schedule this season was more difficult, we still for some reason play 1 less noncon game that 95% of d1 teams, and the BE as a whole is tougher than last season.

I just don't think our BE schedule to this point should be completely disregarded in the analysis.  We played a very top heavy schedule, and if the BE schedule shook out a bit different (looked more like Providence's this year), I think a lot of people would feel differently, because our BE record would look better at the moment.  Now...that requires MU to actually win the games they should win the rest of the way, which is admittedly a big if at this point.

As for your second paragraph, I get it.  Markus has been a disappointment at times in the BE season.  Its frustrating that Wojo hasn't been able to figure out a way to at least be a slightly below average defensive team.   At this point, I think its a personnel issue with 2/3 best players just not being overly compatible with one another.  I don't necessarily agree that the freshman haven't improved throughout the year, but I could at least see where you're coming from there.

Everything you said makes sense.  And I expected a slight step back too.  What gives me concern is now I'm worried we'll lose out.  This season could go from disappointing to really bad. 

Also, it appears we are the type of program where the coach isn't going to engineer a few wins here and there.  We're going to need the horses.  The good news, I think he is good at getting those horses.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

Of course I would not trade, even current program, for any SLU like program. If memory serves me, Golden and J5 were hitting me hard with optimism and calling me out for not supporting the program. I am not sure if was wades or brew, but someone was awfully high on this year's team and I felt this year was down year at best.

Whatever the case, my fingers remain crossed for next season.

Just saw your last post. Do you not remember the Luke bashing and Matt praising in Feb of last season?

Oh yes I remember. I remember one or two fanatical Heldt worshippers and a handful of people who said he could maybe replace Luke. I remember most recognizing that Luke would be a big loss. But there was definitely a group that was all aboard the Neenah Express

[Goose]

TAMU

My issue last year, and currently, is make no fair assessments. Many post good things simply because they want them to be true. My gut says 90% on the Neenah Express were fingers crossed optimistic, but can across as on the Express. Last year’s team was better, but in big picture means nothing.
I think you know me well to enough to know is all that matters is the big picture. Regardless of last year talk, I am not nearly as jacked for next season as most. They should be better on paper, but a lot of things need to fall into place. I would prefer being position to only question how good are they going to be. IMO they are not at that point.