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Author Topic: Bitcoin  (Read 90967 times)

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #475 on: September 24, 2021, 12:36:35 PM »
Let me grab something to dry all the tears I'm shedding on behalf of criminals and greedy rubes who got burned in the Tulip Panic.

You do realize that the USD is used in the commission of far more crimes.

And that the CCP has 'banned' crypto like 10 times already.

right?

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #476 on: October 19, 2021, 06:48:55 PM »
approaching ATH

jesmu84

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #477 on: October 20, 2021, 04:33:59 PM »
approaching ATH

And boom goes the dynamite

rocket surgeon

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #478 on: October 20, 2021, 07:44:53 PM »
all of my uranium is up up up...ccj has more than doubled, dnn and urg 4x
don't...don't don't don't don't

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #479 on: May 14, 2022, 05:31:51 PM »
A fairly long article from a harsh critic of crypto.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/why-this-computer-scientist-says-all-cryptocurrency-should-die-in-a-fire/

If you are pro-crypto, where is this guy wrong in your opinion?
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #480 on: May 15, 2022, 09:25:07 AM »
A fairly long article from a harsh critic of crypto.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/why-this-computer-scientist-says-all-cryptocurrency-should-die-in-a-fire/

If you are pro-crypto, where is this guy wrong in your opinion?

Fantastic, in depth article.  Thanks for sharing.

Sir Lawrence

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #481 on: May 16, 2022, 04:38:33 PM »
A fairly long article from a harsh critic of crypto.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/why-this-computer-scientist-says-all-cryptocurrency-should-die-in-a-fire/

If you are pro-crypto, where is this guy wrong in your opinion?

Yes, thanks for sharing.  I didn't fully understood what mining was all about until reading this article. 
Ludum habemus.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #482 on: May 17, 2022, 07:40:48 AM »
Ethereum co-founder says every ‘average smallholder’ impacted by Terra’s stablecoin crash should be made whole, cites FDIC’s $250,000 as ‘precedent’
https://fortune.com/2022/05/15/ethereum-founder-vitalik-buterin-terra-ust-stablecoin-investors-should-be-made-whole-fdic/

The libertarians suddenly want the government to come to their rescue...but they probably still don't want any regulations.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #483 on: May 17, 2022, 10:11:33 AM »
Ethereum co-founder says every ‘average smallholder’ impacted by Terra’s stablecoin crash should be made whole, cites FDIC’s $250,000 as ‘precedent’
https://fortune.com/2022/05/15/ethereum-founder-vitalik-buterin-terra-ust-stablecoin-investors-should-be-made-whole-fdic/

The libertarians suddenly want the government to come to their rescue...but they probably still don't want any regulations.

Vitalik is a strange dude.  Strongly disagree with him here... generally agree with him.

JWags85

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #484 on: May 17, 2022, 10:26:56 AM »
A fairly long article from a harsh critic of crypto.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/why-this-computer-scientist-says-all-cryptocurrency-should-die-in-a-fire/

If you are pro-crypto, where is this guy wrong in your opinion?

He makes good points at times.  I'm not 100% sold or in favor of crypto, but his insanely biased ranting sort of calls his opinion into question.  Also, continuing to ground criticisms of crypto into drug dealers and pedophiles and other dark web criminals is a great way to seem like you're screaming at clouds.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #485 on: May 17, 2022, 10:45:01 AM »
A fairly long article from a harsh critic of crypto.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/why-this-computer-scientist-says-all-cryptocurrency-should-die-in-a-fire/

If you are pro-crypto, where is this guy wrong in your opinion?

Jesus this is long.  And there are glaring problems with his understanding of crypto and smart contracts.  And I'm only 1/6 of the way in.

And now I'm 1/4 of the way through, and this is a terrible article.  Either he has no fundamental understanding, or he is a terrible communicator, OR he has a major bias (It's this one) towards crypto in general. 

He's just going through all the anti crypto talking points.  I'll read the rest, but I can guess where this is going.  He's going to conflate ALL crypto with Bitcoin, when it is convenient, and separate them when it works for him as well.

Quote
So Bitcoin burns that much of the world’s electricity to be able to process somewhere between three to seven transactions per second across the entire world.

I guess Nick has never heard of the Lightning Network that is attached to the BTC block chain that can process a million transactions per second. 

Quote
So we’ve seen waves come and go of companies saying “We’ll accept payments in Bitcoin.” They’re lying. Because they aren’t actually accepting payments in Bitcoin. They are using a service that allows them to price in dollars, presents Bitcoin to the customer, transfers the Bitcoin, turns it into dollars, and so the merchant is getting actual money. Which means if the system has to balance and you want to buy with Bitcoin and you don’t have Bitcoin, you have to convert dollars to Bitcoin. And this is, by design, a horribly expensive process, because Bitcoin and the cryptocurrencies are fundamentally incompatible with modern finance.

Here he is taking a leap and saying that the business isn't retaining the bitcoins.  His assumption is that they're instantly converted back to dollars.

Quote
Well, there are classes of payments that the intermediaries don’t allow. The big ones are drug dealing, child sexual abuse material, and ransoms. As a consequence, the cryptocurrency actually used for payments is really only used seriously for: ransomware payments, where companies have to pay $10 million. Drug deals—drug dealers hate it, but it’s the only game in town. And we’ve had cases of websites selling child exploitation material paid with Bitcoin.

Amazing that none of these problems existed before January 2009!
Quote

So it doesn’t work for payments. And it doesn’t work economically either. It’s effectively a giant self-assembled Ponzi scheme. You hear about people making money in Bitcoin or cryptocurrency. They only make money because some other sucker lost more. This is very different from the stock market.

Bahahahahhahahahah....  So now crypto is like the stock market, and not like money.  Which one is it?  Can I show up to Starbucks and ask to pay in Amazon stock?  Again, Nick seems to be very fluid with his definitions.  Can I buy British Sterling today for 1.25 dollars per, and then tomorrow sell the SAME British sterling for 1.35 dollar per?  Could I do this with gold?  Silver?  Wheat?  You know why this works?  Because I've made money while some sucker lost more.  What an absolute clown.

Actually, I'm not going to read the rest of this dog sh!it.  It's terrible, and the expert is intentionally misleading.  I'd be willing to bet he either has written a book, or has a book on the way about the topic... either way, I saw from his twitter that he is leaving Berkley at the end of the year.  I'm sure he'll end up as the "Anti-crypto" guy on a number of TV segments and make his money that way.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #486 on: May 17, 2022, 11:49:49 AM »

Bahahahahhahahahah....  So now crypto is like the stock market, and not like money.  Which one is it?  Can I show up to Starbucks and ask to pay in Amazon stock?  Again, Nick seems to be very fluid with his definitions.  Can I buy British Sterling today for 1.25 dollars per, and then tomorrow sell the SAME British sterling for 1.35 dollar per?  Could I do this with gold?  Silver?  Wheat?  You know why this works?  Because I've made money while some sucker lost more.  What an absolute clown.

Appreciate your point of view, it isn't an area that I feel like I have an expert understanding in so I like to hear different viewpoints.

WRT "like the stock market", I think you misunderstood his point. He specifically said it's NOT like the stock market, and he said that in the context not of payments (i.e., he wasn't suggesting you could pay transactions in shares of stock), but rather that over time the stock market is accretive, whereas he believes crypto is a zero sum game, less very significant frictional costs.

Also, I don't think you can deny crypto is far more volatile than major currencies. Isn't that hugely problematic if it is to be used as a currency? Wheat, silver, and gold don't hold themselves out as currency; sure, you can use silver or gold coins, but even then you have to convert them to dollars before you can use them at Pic-N-Save.

Re payments, to the point both you are Wags raise, where is bitcoin or any other crypto actually being used for real world transactions (not NFTs) beyond the illicit uses the author points out? And in how much volume?

If you are telling me crypto is a store of value hedge like gold, I can sort of understand that. If you are telling me it is a currency, I remain unconvinced.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #487 on: May 17, 2022, 01:17:05 PM »
Also, I don't think you can deny crypto is far more volatile than major currencies. Isn't that hugely problematic if it is to be used as a currency? Wheat, silver, and gold don't hold themselves out as currency; sure, you can use silver or gold coins, but even then you have to convert them to dollars before you can use them at Pic-N-Save.


Obviously it is more volatile.  It can be problematic for use as currency.  But gasoline and other commodities are extremely volatile.  Crude oil has nearly doubled in price from a year ago.  Even Gold has increased in value by a third over the last four years.  No one bats an eye about that.  Crypto is the most volatile so it gets a bad name, I guess.  The first BTC transaction was 10,000 BTC for some pizzas.  But at that time no one thought BTC was worth anything.  Current value is current value.  In a period off months some world currencies (Zimbabwe dollar, for example) experienced hyperinflation and sent the value of their currency to basically zero.  And this happened multiple times.  If you feel it is okay to exchange one dollar for one gallon of milk (for example) and then next week due to economic conditions you agree to pay two dollars for the same gallon of milk... you're still exchanging currency for the same product... albeit more, but that is the agreement.  Currency is only worth what we all agree it is worth.  Always has been, always will be.  If you believe this to the the bottom value of BTC relative to the dollar wouldn't you consider selling assets for BTC instead of dollars?  Is it essentially gambling?  Yup, but so is gambling.   :P

Re payments, to the point both you are Wags raise, where is bitcoin or any other crypto actually being used for real world transactions (not NFTs) beyond the illicit uses the author points out? And in how much volume?

If you are telling me crypto is a store of value hedge like gold, I can sort of understand that. If you are telling me it is a currency, I remain unconvinced.

There are a ton of transactions every day on the bitcoin blockchain that don't involve crimes.  People buy and sell property... and the most important thing is a remittance payment.  Think of it like Western Union, but without the middle men jacking up the price.  There is a local (two locations) jewelry store in Madison that accepts bitcoin for their items.  I am unsure of the volume of transactions that are not illicit.  Tracking such a thing is difficult unless you know both the seller and the buyer's wallet addresses.  I doubt anyone tracks it.

Bitcoin is both a store of value and a currency.  Money must be fungible, durable, divisible, portable, acceptable (probably BTC's biggest hurdle), uniform, and limited in supply (US dollar's largest hurdle).

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #488 on: May 17, 2022, 02:24:10 PM »
... and the most important thing is a remittance payment.  Think of it like Western Union, but without the middle men jacking up the price.

So let me drill down on this one a bit. I can Venmo or Zelle pretty much anyone with near zero frictional cost. I can electronically move money back and forth between my bank and my brokerage, with the only cost being time since the transaction posts overnight.

How is bitcoin better from a remittance perspective? Doesn't it have greater frictional costs?

(I appreciate that WU has much higher costs as 1) it's for-profit, 2) it has fraud protection and money-laundering requirements to adhere to, and 3) WU transactions are reversible if there is fraud or error).
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

JWags85

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #489 on: May 17, 2022, 02:41:06 PM »
So let me drill down on this one a bit. I can Venmo or Zelle pretty much anyone with near zero frictional cost. I can electronically move money back and forth between my bank and my brokerage, with the only cost being time since the transaction posts overnight.

How is bitcoin better from a remittance perspective? Doesn't it have greater frictional costs?

(I appreciate that WU has much higher costs as 1) it's for-profit, 2) it has fraud protection and money-laundering requirements to adhere to, and 3) WU transactions are reversible if there is fraud or error).

Domestically, but once you move outside of that, not so much.  For example, I know people in Asia that US bank accounts specifically for being able to Venmo/Zelle when they are in NYC or LA for work, cause otherwise they are unable.

Also, there are value caps. $50-100 sure.  But when you are trying to send someone $5000, then Venmo/Zelle are an issue.

Real world example, my wife's best friend and her husband rent a very nice house in NJ.  The monthly rent is substantial.  Her husband pays their rent monthly in Bitcoin to the owner who since relocated back home to the UK.  Cheaper, faster, and less difficulty than wiring.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #490 on: May 17, 2022, 03:39:15 PM »
What Wags said.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #491 on: May 17, 2022, 04:43:48 PM »
Thanks, guys, you raise a good point re the amount limits on Zelle/Venmo. I think PayPal and Apple Pay have much higher limits though, correct?

Anyway, interesting articles below from Sam Brinkman-Fried.

Original comments:
FTX boss Sam Bankman-Fried believes bitcoin has no future as a payments network, because its 'proof of work' system means it can't scale up
https://news.yahoo.com/ftx-boss-sam-bankman-fried-102930511.html

Revisions after he got some pushback:
Sam Bankman-Fried says Bitcoin actually could have a future as money or a payments network—but there’s a catch
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sam-bankman-fried-says-bitcoin-165522217.html
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 08:23:10 PM by TSmith34 »
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #492 on: June 13, 2022, 10:49:33 PM »
Prices of Bitcoin (and other crypto) going into the toilet.

It's hurting not only individual investors but corporations that invested big too -- like Tesla, which bought an estimated $1.5B in early 2021, at what Bloomberg estimated an average price of $34,700.

Still disappointed that Fidelity decided to start offering crypto to 401k investors, most of whom don't follow the market very closely.

I have no horse in the crypto race -- never owned any and probably never will. But I know a lot of people who do, and I hope they get out of it whole. A lot of them have owned some since it was dirt cheap, but many have averaged up over the years and were still buying at well over $50K.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

forgetful

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #493 on: June 13, 2022, 11:01:41 PM »
Prices of Bitcoin (and other crypto) going into the toilet.

It's hurting not only individual investors but corporations that invested big too -- like Tesla, which bought an estimated $1.5B in early 2021, at what Bloomberg estimated an average price of $34,700.

Still disappointed that Fidelity decided to start offering crypto to 401k investors, most of whom don't follow the market very closely.

I have no horse in the crypto race -- never owned any and probably never will. But I know a lot of people who do, and I hope they get out of it whole. A lot of them have owned some since it was dirt cheap, but many have averaged up over the years and were still buying at well over $50K.

I've always felt crypto was kind of worthless, and a scam. Some people are losing their shirts a bit now, and I think we are no where near the bottom on that end.

Heard some talk of a bailout for Crypto.

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #494 on: June 13, 2022, 11:09:52 PM »
And how about Celcius, one of the largest crypto lending platforms, pausing all withdrawals this morning. And Binance, the world's largest crypto exchange, halting Bitcoin withdrawals for a spell.

Isn't one of the supposed benefits of crypto that one can do what one wants with them pretty much any time without interference from government, the private sector, other individuals, etc?

So if all of a sudden you lose access to the crypto you have spent tens of thousands of dollars (or more) buying, isn't that a pretty big problem?
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

MU82

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #495 on: June 14, 2022, 07:20:00 AM »
Crypto.com, BlockFi plan to lay off employees as market downturn intensifies

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3848166-cryptocom-blockfi-plan-to-lay-off-employees-as-market-downturn-intensifies?lctg=60ab95209838154d2d2b6636&mailingid=28048559&messageid=wall_street_breakfast&serial=28048559.7673&userid=1115549&utm_campaign=WSB_6_13_22&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha&utm_term=wall_street_breakfast

EDIT: From NYT "DealBook" editor Andrew Ross Sorkin ...

The sudden suspension of withdrawals by the lending platform Celsius started a crypto market meltdown yesterday. Celsius works by lending out its customers’ Ethereum deposits to invest in decentralized finance projects and offering extreme yields, as high as 18 percent. But its high yields required another cryptocurrency, stETH, to maintain its close peg to Ethereum. The two became unglued. Late on Sunday, Celsius announced it was freezing withdrawals, prompting a sell-off that exacerbated the recent downward spiral of crypto prices in general.

More unsettling announcements soon followed. A Celsius competitor, BlockFi, said it was laying off 20 percent of its employees amid economic difficulties. The exchange Crypto.com said it would let go of about 260 employees for similar reasons. This morning, Coinbase C.E.O. Brian Armstrong announced that the crypto exchange would lay off 18 percent of its employees, or about 1,100 people. It has all left a strange hush over the usually lively crypto Twitter community and the celebrities who have promoted digital assets — including Matt Damon, who likened investing to space travel in an ad for Crypto.com last year and said “fortune favors the brave.”

“I refuse to believe Matt Damon was wrong about investing advice,” Aaron Levie, C.E.O. of the cloud computing company Box, mused on Twitter yesterday. But the brave were muted.

Who isn’t talking for a change?

The Tesla chief Elon Musk, an avid tweeter and crypto influencer, kept uncharacteristically mum on Monday. What was once $1.5 billion worth of Bitcoin in the company’s coffers has over time dwindled in value to about $965 million.

Michael Saylor, C.E.O. of the software company MicroStrategy, reiterated his faith in Bitcoin with an updated “laser eyes” profile picture, signifying steadfastness as he faced a double hit. Nearly $4 billion worth of Bitcoin in MicroStrategy’s treasury has fallen in value to below $3 billion, and the stock price has slumped ahead of a potential margin call should Bitcoin fall to $21,000.

Block’s C.E.O., Jack Dorsey, considered Bitcoin’s spiritual leader by many, faced his company’s Bitcoin investment losses of more than $40 million with contemplative silence.

As for all the other celebrities who have promoted crypto — LeBron James, Tom Brady, Kim Kardashian, Reese Witherspoon, Gwyneth Paltrow and Giselle Bunchen, to name just a few — they have been “mad silent,” as one Twitter user put it.


« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 08:02:47 AM by MU82 »
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lawdog77

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #496 on: June 14, 2022, 08:02:40 AM »
And how about Celcius, one of the largest crypto lending platforms, pausing all withdrawals this morning. And Binance, the world's largest crypto exchange, halting Bitcoin withdrawals for a spell.

Isn't one of the supposed benefits of crypto that one can do what one wants with them pretty much any time without interference from government, the private sector, other individuals, etc?

So if all of a sudden you lose access to the crypto you have spent tens of thousands of dollars (or more) buying, isn't that a pretty big problem?
Yeah, that is odd. Makes it seem crypto is not an actual form of money, but some sort of Ponzi scheme.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #497 on: June 14, 2022, 08:15:16 AM »
It's just an old fashioned bank run.  They can only meet withdrawls if they have the liquidity to do so.
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TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #498 on: June 14, 2022, 08:49:38 AM »
Tesla and Block BoDs are useless sycophants. Block at least is tangentially related to crypto, Telsa not at all, yet both let their CEOs bet shareholders' value on rolls of the dice. Horrible governance; and yet, neither Elon nor Jack, nor either DoB will face any consequence.
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MUBurrow

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Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #499 on: June 14, 2022, 09:09:50 AM »
Isn't one of the supposed benefits of crypto that one can do what one wants with them pretty much any time without interference from government, the private sector, other individuals, etc?

My position on crypto is that I am personally anti, and won't invest directly myself for two reasons.  One is that the environmental consequences (energy use) are philosophically repugnant to me.  The second is that I think centralized currency's ties to government are a feature, not a bug.  IMO, the infatuation with crypto's decentralization is a strange combo of libertarian immaturity and pseudo-religious technology worship. 

That all being said, I'm probably a hypocrite because I also got my feet pretty wet investing in COIN after its IPO because I think crypto is here to stay in some form or fashion, and I'm a long term hold there despite the current market plunge.