Marquette NBA Thread

[PGsHeroes32]

Jae was POY in the Big East and led us to a Big East Championship. Wes had a solid though unspectacular college career and went undrafted. Not really debatable.

False

[Lennys Tap]

False

You are correct - we were 14-4 but finished 2nd.

[wadesworld]

Jae was POY in the Big East and led us to a Big East Championship. Wes had a solid though unspectacular college career and went undrafted. Not really debatable.

No doubt Jae's peak was better. But Wes had 4 years to accumulate stats (1 injury riddled) while Jae only had 2.

Wes's senior year was 18.3 points, 5.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists with an eFG % of 52.7.

Jae's senior year was 17.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, 2.1 assists with an eFG % of 56.8.

Jae was better in their respective best seasons at MU, but it's not that big of a difference.

For their careers, Wes was 13.2 points, 4.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists with an eFG% of 48.8 over 4 years. Jae was 14.6 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.8 assists with an eFG% of 56% over 2 years.

Definitely debatable.

[Tyler COLEk]

Not true.

Still no evidence of the phantom post on the IWB board. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Lennys Tap]

No doubt Jae's peak was better. But Wes had 4 years to accumulate stats (1 injury riddled) while Jae only had 2.

Wes's senior year was 18.3 points, 5.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists with an eFG % of 52.7.

Jae's senior year was 17.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, 2.1 assists with an eFG % of 56.8.



Jae was better in their respective best seasons at MU, but it's not that big of a difference.

For their careers, Wes was 13.2 points, 4.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists with an eFG% of 48.8 over 4 years. Jae was 14.6 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.8 assists with an eFG% of 56% over 2 years.

Definitely debatable.

So in their best (senior) seasons it clearly Jae. For their careers it's clearly Jae. But it's debatable. LOL.

Jae was easily the best player on a team that was 14-4 in the Big East, a S16, 3 seed tournament team.

Wes was the second best player on a 10-6, round of 32, 6 seed tournament team.

Not all that close.

[wadesworld]

So in their best (senior) seasons it clearly Jae. For their careers it's clearly Jae. But it's debatable. LOL.

Jae was easily the best player on a team that was 14-4 in the Big East, a S16, 3 seed tournament team.

Wes was the second best player on a 10-6, round of 32, 6 seed tournament team.

Not all that close.

Clearly? Yeah, no. And career? I'd argue it's clearly Wes, given that he was around for 4 years.

Wes's "10"-6 (they were 12-6, but that doesn't sound as good for the narrative), round of 32, 6 seed tournament team was 23-4, 12-2 and ranked 8 in the country when their point guard got injured and they lost 6 of 8 after the injury. And he was clearly the best player on that team.

No doubt close.

[MUDPT]

You are correct - we were 14-4 but finished 2nd.

I think Syracuse had to vacate wins that season, so they probably did win the Big East, retroactively.  #hangthebanner

[Lennys Tap]

Clearly? Yeah, no. And career? I'd argue it's clearly Wes, given that he was around for 4 years.

Wes's "10"-6 (they were 12-6, but that doesn't sound as good for the narrative), round of 32, 6 seed tournament team was 23-4, 12-2 and ranked 8 in the country when their point guard got injured and they lost 6 of 8 after the injury. And he was clearly the best player on that team.

No doubt close.

Mea Culpa on the 10-6 vs 12-6. Wes made 2nd team all Big East that year. The only time he made the list in his career. You say he was "clearly the best player on that team" but Jerel McNeal was 1st team all Big East East that year. They finished 5th, and collapsed down the stretch despite being led by 1st and 2nd team all Big East players.

Jae wasn't just 1st team, he was POY FFS. The next time Wes gets one (1) vote for Big East POY it will be the first. I doubt he ever even received one vote for 1st team all Big East.

Wes was a complimentary player for three years and a standout for one. Jae was a complimentary player for one year and the POY for one. No contest, no debate except for someone looking for one.

[The Sultan]

Still no evidence of the phantom post on the IWB board. I'll believe it when I see it.

Ok. My job isn't to convince you of something you don't want to believe.

[wadesworld]

Mea Culpa on the 10-6 vs 12-6. Wes made 2nd team all Big East that year. The only time he made the list in his career. You say he was "clearly the best player on that team" but Jerel McNeal was 1st team all Big East East that year. They finished 5th, and collapsed down the stretch despite being led by 1st and 2nd team all Big East players.

Jae wasn't just 1st team, he was POY FFS. The next time Wes gets one (1) vote for Big East POY it will be the first. I doubt he ever even received one vote for 1st team all Big East.

Wes was a complimentary player for three years and a standout for one. Jae was a complimentary player for one year and the POY for one. No contest, no debate except for someone looking for one.

Yeah it's a theme with you.  Jae's team won the BE (didn't), Wes's team went 10-6 (didn't).  If it was so obvious that Wes doesn't compare to Jae, you wouldn't have to make stuff up to make Jae's accomplishments (even though both of those things are how their teams did, reaching even further) look better.  The team "collapsed down the stretch" after losing their starting point guard.

Correct.  Like I've said, Jae's best year was better than Wes's best year.  Wes was here for 4 years, while Jae was here for 2 years.  Wes averaged 11.2 points, 4.8 rebounds, and 2.2 assists over his freshman and sophomore years (heck of a "complimentary player") while Jae averaged 0.0 points, 0.0 rebounds, and 0.0 assists for Marquette his freshman and sophomore years.  Those years matter.

[Tyler COLEk]

Ok. My job isn't to convince you of something you don't want to believe.

If you have something, then post it. No sense in discussing it otherwise.

[Herman Cain]

Jae made a big mistake by holding out with Suns. Got traded and ended up hurt and on the bench anyway. Will be interesting to see who signs him now.

https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/will-jae-crowder-stay-with-the-milwaukee-bucks-or-go-somewhere-else

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah it's a theme with you.  Jae's team won the BE (didn't), Wes's team went 10-6 (didn't).  If it was so obvious that Wes doesn't compare to Jae, you wouldn't have to make stuff up to make Jae's accomplishments (even though both of those things are how their teams did, reaching even further) look better.  The team "collapsed down the stretch" after losing their starting point guard.

Correct.  Like I've said, Jae's best year was better than Wes's best year.  Wes was here for 4 years, while Jae was here for 2 years.  Wes averaged 11.2 points, 4.8 rebounds, and 2.2 assists over his freshman and sophomore years (heck of a "complimentary player") while Jae averaged 0.0 points, 0.0 rebounds, and 0.0 assists for Marquette his freshman and sophomore years.  Those years matter.

Whatever. Despite your protestations to the contrary,Wes was never judged to be the best player on his team. Wes never made 1st team All Big East. And the team on which he was judged to be the 2nd best player was 12-6, 5th place, 6 seed, round of 32. Jae was unanimous All Big East and conference POY. The team on which he was clearly the best player was 14-4, 2nd place, 3 seed, S16.

Those were Wes and Jae's senior year, BY FAR their best at Marquette. And in those years Jae was MUCH BETTER, not debatable. You want to give Wes a trophy for 11.8, 4.8 and 2.2, go ahead and crown him. I love the guy, but he'd be embarrassed by your weak sauce argument.

[wadesworld]

Whatever. Despite your protestations to the contrary,Wes was never judged to be the best player on his team. Wes never made 1st team All Big East. And the team on which he was judged to be the 2nd best player was 12-6, 5th place, 6 seed, round of 32. Jae was unanimous All Big East and conference POY. The team on which he was clearly the best player was 14-4, 2nd place, 3 seed, S16.

Those were Wes and Jae's senior year, BY FAR their best at Marquette. And in those years Jae was MUCH BETTER, not debatable. You want to give Wes a trophy for 11.8, 4.8 and 2.2, go ahead and crown him. I love the guy, but he'd be embarrassed by your weak sauce argument.

Okay hoopaloop. Funny because you are very much like Chicos.

18.3 points, 5.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists is MUCH WORSE, not debatable than 17.5/8.4/2.1. Interesting stuff chee...err, len!

You just not have been a big fan or overly impressed with Oso this year if you think 11.2/4.8/2.2 per game is "weak sauce." We're salivating over a rising senior who had numbers that were a hair better than Wes had as a freshman and sophomore.

[Lennys Tap]

Okay hoopaloop. Funny because you are very much like Chicos.

18.3 points, 5.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists is MUCH WORSE, not debatable than 17.5/8.4/2.1. Interesting stuff chee...err, len!

You just not have been a big fan or overly impressed with Oso this year if you think 11.2/4.8/2.2 per game is "weak sauce." We're salivating over a rising senior who had numbers that were a hair better than Wes had as a freshman and sophomore.

Insult me all you want with the Chico type BS - it's your go to move every time you're owned in a disagreement on Scoop so I guess it's a compliment.

You're hung up on old school stats (and cherry picked ones at that - no steals, no blocks). In 2011-12, Jae was 2nd in the Big East in steals, 10th nationally. Wes didn't cracked the top 20 in any of his seasons. Blocks, Jae was 20th and 15th in the Big East in his 2 years. Wes didn't crack the top 20. Let's move on to some advanced stats:

Total Win Shares: Wes cracked the Big East top 20 twice - 20th in 2006-7, 4th in 2008-9. Jae was 9th in 2010-11, 1st in 2011-12 (and 5th Nationally).

EFG%: Each were in the top 20 BE once - Wes was 6th (.527) in 2008-9, Jae was 1st in 2011-12 (.568).

Bottom line - Jae was better than Wes in every defensive metric and most offensive ones. Because of that, he was a unanimous 1st team All Big East player and the #1 player in the conference his senior year. And a 2nd team All American. Wes was a solid contributor who came into his own his senior year and made 2nd team All Big East.

So you're wrong and the important stats and awards prove it. But nobody here digs in better than you once you've taken an indefensible position. Congrats on that.

[wadesworld]

Insult me all you want with the Chico type BS - it's your go to move every time you're owned in a disagreement on Scoop so I guess it's a compliment.

You're hung up on old school stats (and cherry picked ones at that - no steals, no blocks). In 2011-12, Jae was 2nd in the Big East in steals, 10th nationally. Wes didn't cracked the top 20 in any of his seasons. Blocks, Jae was 20th and 15th in the Big East in his 2 years. Wes didn't crack the top 20. Let's move on to some advanced stats:

Total Win Shares: Wes cracked the Big East top 20 twice - 20th in 2006-7, 4th in 2008-9. Jae was 9th in 2010-11, 1st in 2011-12 (and 5th Nationally).

EFG%: Each were in the top 20 BE once - Wes was 6th (.527) in 2008-9, Jae was 1st in 2011-12 (.568).

Bottom line - Jae was better than Wes in every defensive metric and most offensive ones. Because of that, he was a unanimous 1st team All Big East player and the #1 player in the conference his senior year. And a 2nd team All American. Wes was a solid contributor who came into his own his senior year and made 2nd team All Big East.

So you're wrong and the important stats and awards prove it. But nobody here digs in better than you once you've taken an indefensible position. Congrats on that.

Lol. I'm hung up on "old school stats" (who cares about points, rebounds, and assists?) but hey let's take a look at who made what All Conference Teams, when they were playing in different years and the BE was a lot stronger Wes's senior year. That's a good quality new metric there for you!

Hilarious that I'm "cherry-picking stats" (nobody would ever look at points, rebounds, and assists!) while you're just blatantly making things up (good news guys, MU has an extra Big East title! Bad news is MU has 2 less BE wins. Solid trade off though).

The funny part is I've said Jae's best year was better! You're just the one who said it was MUCH BETTER, and then point to a difference of 20th best compared to 9th best, 4th best compared to best, and 6th best compared to best. You're right, of all the players in the Big East, having 11 players separate them, 3 players separate them, and 5 players separate them shows that Jae was MUCH BETTER than Wes.

All this despite averaging what Oso just averaged for 2 years that Jae wasn't even playing at MU! Lol. But hey, Wes and Oso are just nice complimentary players for Marquette. They might as well be Chris Otule, Juan Anderson, or Duane Wilson. Just complimentary guys.

Good stuff as always Chico! Look forward to you bumping this a week from now!

[Lennys Tap]

Lol. I'm hung up on "old school stats" (who cares about points, rebounds, and assists?) but hey let's take a look at who made what All Conference Teams, when they were playing in different years and the BE was a lot stronger Wes's senior year. That's a good quality new metric there for you!

Hilarious that I'm "cherry-picking stats" (nobody would ever look at points, rebounds, and assists!) while you're just blatantly making things up (good news guys, MU has an extra Big East title! Bad news is MU has 2 less BE wins. Solid trade off though).

The funny part is I've said Jae's best year was better! You're just the one who said it was MUCH BETTER, and then point to a difference of 20th best compared to 9th best, 4th best compared to best, and 6th best compared to best. You're right, of all the players in the Big East, having 11 players separate them, 3 players separate them, and 5 players separate them shows that Jae was MUCH BETTER than Wes.

All this despite averaging what Oso just averaged for 2 years that Jae wasn't even playing at MU! Lol. But hey, Wes and Oso are just nice complimentary players for Marquette. They might as well be Chris Otule, Juan Anderson, or Duane Wilson. Just complimentary guys.

Good stuff as always Chico! Look forward to you bumping this a week from now!

Wades

You think 2nd team AA is slightly better than 2nd team All Big East, I think it's a lot better.
You think Big East POY and unanimous 1st team All Big East is slightly better than 2nd team All Big East, I think it's a lot better.
You think being 5th nationally in win shares is slightly better than not being in the top 20, I think it's significantly better.
You think a league leading .568 efg% is slightly better than a 6th best .527, I think it's significantly better.
You think being much better at every defensive metric and having a much lower TO rate means a guy is slightly better, I think it makes him significantly better.

I could go on, but you're dug in like Chico used to be so there's no point. We can just agree to disagree.

[wadesworld]

Wades

You think 2nd team AA is slightly better than 2nd team All Big East, I think it's a lot better.
You think Big East POY and unanimous 1st team All Big East is slightly better than 2nd team All Big East, I think it's a lot better.
You think being 5th nationally in win shares is slightly better than not being in the top 20, I think it's significantly better.
You think a league leading .568 efg% is slightly better than a 6th best .527, I think it's significantly better.
You think being much better at every defensive metric and having a much lower TO rate means a guy is slightly better, I think it makes him significantly better.

I could go on, but you're dug in like Chico used to be so there's no point. We can just agree to disagree.

Very original my man!

But yes.  Objectively Jae was slightly better as a senior than Wes was.  Thank you for confirming that.  One of them played 4 years at Marquette while the other played 2.  I hope Oso can up his game to be more than a complimentary player next year!

[Hards Alumni]

Jae made a big mistake by holding out with Suns. Got traded and ended up hurt and on the bench anyway. Will be interesting to see who signs him now.

https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/news/will-jae-crowder-stay-with-the-milwaukee-bucks-or-go-somewhere-else

He might be donezo

[MuggsyB]

Jimmy apparently would "not show up" if he was voted into the Basketball HOF.  He was asked about this in the context of D.Wade making it this year.  He was very adamant in a NBA radio interview he was against individual awards.  Truthfully this is completely asinine and he comes across as a tool/fool with this take.  His point that "this is a team sport" has nothing to do with receiving the greatest honor as a basketball player.  It's insulting to other players and draws attention to himself.

[The Sultan]

Who cares really.

[Lennys Tap]

Very original my man!

But yes.  Objectively Jae was slightly better as a senior than Wes was.  Thank you for confirming that.  One of them played 4 years at Marquette while the other played 2.  I hope Oso can up his game to be more than a complimentary player next year!

One of Chico's favorite tactics in a lost argument was moving the goalposts and bringing up something extraneous. What does Oso have to do with the Wes, Jae comparison? Different position, totally different player but when the apples to apples comparison fails let's bring in an orange. But if you insist on going there...

Scott Merritt was the quintessential complimentary player on the 2002-3 MU team. His numbers in your 3 cherry picked categories that year were 10.8, 6.6 and 1.5 - basically a push with Wes's first 3 year composites. Doesn't mean a lot, but neither does all the Oso bullish!t you brought into the discussion.

[Lennys Tap]

Who cares really.

+1000

[MuggsyB]

+1000

It's a look at me take and dumb. 

[The Sultan]

It's a look at me take and dumb. 

You would know.