NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[Jockey]

Most of the injuries are not season ending. They will probably get both Tackles and Daniels back for next game. I would rather sustain the injuries now and fight through it rather than have them later. To me Bakhtiari is the most concerning, he is arguably the second most important player.

Daniels, Perry, Nelson, Cobb, Baktiari, Bulaga - 6 of the top 10 guys on the team have missed games already.

Lovin' 3-1 at this point.

[MU82]

Like most of y'all, I have been watching football as a pretty darn close observer for many, many years. Unlike many of you, I don't give a rat's rump about either the Bears or Packers. No horse in the race at all. Never liked or hated either team. Don't care if either of them go 16-0 or 0-16.

OK, now that I got that out of the way ...

It was a dirty play. Trevathan launched himself into the fray, leading with the crown of his helmet. Against the rules in any way imaginable. He should have been ejected, and he should be suspended. How long? I don't know those kinds of things, but he definitely has to sit. (I disagree with the eye-for-an-eye thing about the suspension lasting as long as the injury keeps Adams out.)

topper's point that if the hit was 6 inches lower it would not have been as bad is immaterial. It WASN'T 6 inches lower. It got Adams in the head. I mean, another yard, and the Seahawks beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl; but they didn't get the yard, they threw an INT.

It is not too much to ask a weaponized athlete - and a helmet IS a weapon - to know his surroundings and his target before he launches his weapon. Yeah, it's a fast game. You still have to control your body. If you don't, there will be consequences. In this case, the consequences were Adams getting knocked into la-la-land and almost certainly Trevathan getting suspended.

"Intent to injure"? Now that's a difficult concept to prove. I agree with MM that Martin obviously intended to injure McMahon. Most incidents aren't so obvious. None of us can know what was in Trevathan's heart and mind, so I tend to give the benefit of the doubt here.

There are those who think the league has become too "sissified," and these kinds of plays are just "good, hard football." They think rules promoting player safety are "ruining the game." Those people need to kneel at the 50-yard line and take a helmet to the head. Their entertainment is not more important than the lives and health of human beings.

[reinko]

The whole game is all screwed up. Football has become soft. Now, I'll be criticized for that. You'll say, 'Oh, isn't that terrible...But football has become soft,  it's true. The outcome of games has been changed by what used to be phenomenal, phenomenal stuff.

Now these are rough guys, these are rough guys. These guys — what they're doing is incredible, but I watched yesterday in particular. So many flags, right? So many flags. Said to myself, what a beautiful tackle.  Fifteen yards! That's it — the game is over.

[jsglow]

Wasn't a hit, it was a body slam, but yes I agree. What would happen if a player had a towel with a hit list on it in todays NFL. Those Forrest Gregg Packer teams were an embarrassment. Gregg brought in those types of players and coached them to play like that. What a douche.

That is all true and I had forgotten.  Gregg was a great player but was a dismal coach for exactly that reason.

[Dish]

Yeah, you gotta start knowing what you have.  Putting them out there now makes the most sense.

This is probably a dumb take, based on the capital they used to draft Trubisky, but let's say they put him in starting now, play the rest of the season, and he just flat out sucks. Like there's overwhelming evidence that he can't QB for whatever reason.

The upcoming draft is way QB heavy, and the Bears by all indications will have a top 7 pick, you at least have to consider the thought of taking a QB, if you see now that Trubisky sucks.

Yes, you'll give Trubisky time (more than a year), and yes, he has no WR's that are worth a lick, but you have to start finding out what you have. If someone thinks his confidence will get shaken, then you shouldn't have traded up to take him with the #2 pick in the draft.

[hairy worthen]

That is all true and I had forgotten.  Gregg was a great player but was a dismal coach for exactly that reason.

Yeah, looking back at it, I'm not sure he was right in the head.

[Sir Lawrence]

Watched this about 20 times now, 4 guys gathered around at work, one GB fan and 3 guys who didn't care enough to watch the game ..

Who are these "3 guys" and did you pull their man cards?

[GGGG]

Wasn't a hit, it was a body slam, but yes I agree. What would happen if a player had a towel with a hit list on it in todays NFL. Those Forrest Gregg Packer teams were an embarrassment. Gregg brought in those types of players and coached them to play like that. What a douche.

Especially against the Bears.  Yeah the Charles Martin incident was one thing, but I remember when a Packer player pushed Payton out of bounds and over the Packer bench.  And constant late hits.

I remember being excited for the Gregg era, but it turned out to be a disaster.

[wadesworld]

Who are these "3 guys" and did you pull their man cards?

Well done.

[mu_hilltopper]

Who are these "3 guys" and did you pull their man cards?

Well, no.  And I was one of the three.   There was a really good episode of Matlock on last night.

[MU82]

As for whether or not to play Trubisky, there is no one "right" or "wrong" way here.

A rookie Peyton Manning played for a 3-13 Colts team and took his lumps: 28 INTs and his worst career numbers across the board. But he later said the experience made him a better QB for the long run.

A rookie Elway started 10 games for a mediocre Broncos team and had 7 TDs and 14 INTs. He was clueless, often running before he even gave a play a chance. That same year, a rookie Marino wasn't initially Miami's starter, but when Shula got tired of watching the offense flounder behind David Woodley, he put in Marino and both the QB and the team went on to have a very nice season; of course, that Dolphins team was coming off a Super Bowl appearance. And we soon realized that Marino was a special QB, one of the best ever.

Stafford started 10 games as a rookie and the Lions went 2-8 in those starts. He had 13 TDs and 20 INTs. Winston started all 16 games for the Bucs as a rookie and had a decent season statistically, but the Bucs went 6-10. Pretty similar story for Newton as a rookie - his first two games were spectacular but then he fell several notches because the team (2-14 the year before) mostly sucked.

Roethlisberger had a very good rookie season for an excellent Pittsburgh team.

Going way back, Bradshaw played 13 games and started 8 as a rookie. 24 INTs and 6 TDs - yikes!

Many others sat and watched for awhile. Stabler didn't start until his 4th season. Favre rode the bench his entire rookie year with Atlanta. Brees did the same with the Chargers. Brady threw 3 passes as a rookie. Montana didn't become the full-time starter until his third year. All of them ended up A-OK.

Two of the most famous wait-his-turn cases were Young and Rodgers. One is in the Hall of Fame, the other will join him there.

When you play for a bad team, as Trubisky does, I think you have to trust the coach and GM to know if the QB is physically and mentally ready to face what he would face. Is the protection so bad and/or does he hold the ball so long that you actually fear for his safety? Is he not yet mentally strong enough to handle what likely would be a lot of losing and misery?

Personally, if I don't have extraordinary concerns for his physical safety - in other words, any more concerns than for any QB anywhere - I play Trubisky. Let him learn by fire like Manning, Elway, Stafford, Newton and others did. Whether you play him or not, you're not going to the playoffs, so let him get the experience, let him start to get used to the speed and talent of NFL defenses, let him start displaying some leadership skills.

If Fox/Pace don't fear for his safety but still don't play him, I might worry a little about Trubisky's mental toughness - which is something every QB must have. But I'd worry only a little about that, because who really knows the coach/GM's reasoning? Anything they say would be of suspect truth, anyway.

[MerrittsMustache]

Good post, MU82. It really shows that there's no "right" or "wrong" way to bring along a QB.

My concern with Trubisky is that he's never had to make complex pre-snap reads. In the one preseason game where the opponent gameplanned, he looked lost getting up to the line and it was taking him too long to analyze what was going on. One could make the argument that he needs more time in the film room to figure that out...but one could also argue that the best way to figure that out is to get on the field and do it live.

The o-line will protect him but there's not a legit 1, 2 or 3 WR on the roster right now. If the Bears truly want to put Trubisky in the best possible place to succeed right away, they should trade him...I mean, they should let him sit this season while they try to improve the receiving corp before next season. If they want to get him some reps on a bad team and see how he responds, throw him in there.

I've said earlier that, barring injury, they need to wait until he's 100% ready. However, after watching Glennon over the last 3 weeks, it's time to get the young man out there.

[forgetful]

As for whether or not to play Trubisky, there is no one "right" or "wrong" way here.

A rookie Peyton Manning played for a 3-13 Colts team and took his lumps: 28 INTs and his worst career numbers across the board. But he later said the experience made him a better QB for the long run.

A rookie Elway started 10 games for a mediocre Broncos team and had 7 TDs and 14 INTs. He was clueless, often running before he even gave a play a chance. That same year, a rookie Marino wasn't initially Miami's starter, but when Shula got tired of watching the offense flounder behind David Woodley, he put in Marino and both the QB and the team went on to have a very nice season; of course, that Dolphins team was coming off a Super Bowl appearance. And we soon realized that Marino was a special QB, one of the best ever.

Stafford started 10 games as a rookie and the Lions went 2-8 in those starts. He had 13 TDs and 20 INTs. Winston started all 16 games for the Bucs as a rookie and had a decent season statistically, but the Bucs went 6-10. Pretty similar story for Newton as a rookie - his first two games were spectacular but then he fell several notches because the team (2-14 the year before) mostly sucked.

Roethlisberger had a very good rookie season for an excellent Pittsburgh team.

Going way back, Bradshaw played 13 games and started 8 as a rookie. 24 INTs and 6 TDs - yikes!

Many others sat and watched for awhile. Stabler didn't start until his 4th season. Favre rode the bench his entire rookie year with Atlanta. Brees did the same with the Chargers. Brady threw 3 passes as a rookie. Montana didn't become the full-time starter until his third year. All of them ended up A-OK.

Two of the most famous wait-his-turn cases were Young and Rodgers. One is in the Hall of Fame, the other will join him there.

When you play for a bad team, as Trubisky does, I think you have to trust the coach and GM to know if the QB is physically and mentally ready to face what he would face. Is the protection so bad and/or does he hold the ball so long that you actually fear for his safety? Is he not yet mentally strong enough to handle what likely would be a lot of losing and misery?

Personally, if I don't have extraordinary concerns for his physical safety - in other words, any more concerns than for any QB anywhere - I play Trubisky. Let him learn by fire like Manning, Elway, Stafford, Newton and others did. Whether you play him or not, you're not going to the playoffs, so let him get the experience, let him start to get used to the speed and talent of NFL defenses, let him start displaying some leadership skills.

If Fox/Pace don't fear for his safety but still don't play him, I might worry a little about Trubisky's mental toughness - which is something every QB must have. But I'd worry only a little about that, because who really knows the coach/GM's reasoning? Anything they say would be of suspect truth, anyway.

You had me at Peyton Manning...great post.

[brewcity77]

Especially against the Bears.  Yeah the Charles Martin incident was one thing, but I remember when a Packer player pushed Payton out of bounds and over the Packer bench.  And constant late hits.

I remember being excited for the Gregg era, but it turned out to be a disaster.

If I am remembering the same play, didn't Payton have his hand balled up in the Green Bay player's shirt? The guy rode him out of bounds, but I recall Payton also pulled him over the bench with him. There was gamesmanship on both sides back in those days.

[Sir Lawrence]

Well, no.  And I was one of the three.   There was a really good episode of Matlock on last night.

Vikings play at noon on Sunday.  I suspect you'll tune in, yes?

[mu_hilltopper]

Vikings play at noon on Sunday.  I suspect you'll tune in, yes?

Maybe.  I know how that movie ends, though. 

In all seriousness, I grew up in a Viking family .. season tickets (sisters still have them) .. jerseys for everyone .. when there was the occasional TV blackout, dad would pack up the station wagon and we'd go to a hotel far enough away to watch the game.   

I think it was that 15-1 season 20 years ago that broke the fever.   That franchise will. never. win. the. superbowl.  ever.

What'd it take the Cubs?  98 seasons?   Vikings are at 56.   They'll reach 98 no problem.

[4everwarriors]

BeeJay's bin watchin' a different team den or maybe he's just dippin' inta da Skol a little too often, hey?

[tower912]

Maybe.  I know how that movie ends, though. 

In all seriousness, I grew up in a Viking family .. season tickets (sisters still have them) .. jerseys for everyone .. when there was the occasional TV blackout, dad would pack up the station wagon and we'd go to a hotel far enough away to watch the game.   

I think it was that 15-1 season 20 years ago that broke the fever.   That franchise will. never. win. the. superbowl.  ever.

What'd it take the Cubs?  98 seasons?   Vikings are at 56.   They'll reach 98 no problem.

Who wins one first, topper, the Vikings or the Lions?

[MU82]

Good post, MU82. It really shows that there's no "right" or "wrong" way to bring along a QB.

My concern with Trubisky is that he's never had to make complex pre-snap reads. In the one preseason game where the opponent gameplanned, he looked lost getting up to the line and it was taking him too long to analyze what was going on. One could make the argument that he needs more time in the film room to figure that out...but one could also argue that the best way to figure that out is to get on the field and do it live.

The o-line will protect him but there's not a legit 1, 2 or 3 WR on the roster right now. If the Bears truly want to put Trubisky in the best possible place to succeed right away, they should trade him...I mean, they should let him sit this season while they try to improve the receiving corp before next season. If they want to get him some reps on a bad team and see how he responds, throw him in there.

I've said earlier that, barring injury, they need to wait until he's 100% ready. However, after watching Glennon over the last 3 weeks, it's time to get the young man out there.

If I were a Bears fan, I would agree with you. I am objective ... and I still agree with you.

This is the optimal time for him to learn, when there is zero pressure on him to perform or win. What you hope is that he gets experience and gradually gets better, and then, maybe in Year 3 when you've surrounded him with better players, he has a clue about how to play QB in the NFL.

Again, if they don't play him, what are they saying about him?

[B. McBannerson]

Week 3 ratings up.
Clear evidence fans love it when players protest the anthem?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/09/26/nfl-2017-week-3-ratings-donald-trump

Also, on a slightly related front, take note of the item further down about Fox News and ESPN.

Week 3 ratings year over year actually down.  The final ratings of all six segments came in Wednesday night, down 3.7% in the 18-49 demo.  Down for younger demos also.  The SI writer may want to wait until all ratings come in rather than over night Household ratings.

[B. McBannerson]

I can understand why people initially thought that Kaepernick was being disrespectful to the flag and to the military. Kaepernick did not handle the aftermath particularly well and that contributed to his message getting lost in the shuffle, but the fact is "the American people" for the most part have not taken the time to learn what this is really all about. In its very, very simplest terms, Kaepernick and the other protesters want all people to be treated fairly and equally. That really doesn't seem like a topic that would generate outrage.

His own comments early on put him in that spot about the flag. 


"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

The pig cop socks, the Castro shirt, the $25K donation to a group honoring a cop killer.  Not played very well by him.

He has a right to protest and do what he wishes. This is America, but when he does these things some people are going to be mighty offended.

[B. McBannerson]

Oh, you're definitely reaching.
Unlike some, I'm not a snowflake whose feelings for my country are so fragile that I get triggered by others' failure to partake in gestures of forced patriotism. I'm not so insecure in my belief in America that I get offended by those who - in this case, accurately - put its flaws on display.
Nor am I an opportunist who seizes upon this Trumped up controversy as a convenient wedge issue to pander to my base or score political points, all the while proliferating lies about the purpose of the protest.
Nor am I a bigot who views this as an easy opportunity to further the racial divide and denigrate those who don't look or think like me.
It makes no difference to me whether someone stands, sits, kneels, stretches, naps or takes advantage of the short lines in the bathroom during the anthem. Others are free to do as they wish, and I have no desire to judge them for it. I'm not a phony who praises America for the freedom it provides, but demands people be punished for exercising those freedoms if it makes me uncomfortable. I do not feel threatened by those who choose not to hop aboard the jingoism express that often comes with the playing of the anthem at sporting events.

For the record, I have and will continue to stand and remove my hat for the playing of the anthem. Because that's what I chose. But I honor the rights of those who chose otherwise and I respect the hell out of those willing to put their reputations and careers on the line for a just cause in which they believe.
How I was raised.

I was raised to honor the flag and country, same for a moment of silence.  The right thing to do, good citizenship and a touch of class.  I was also raised to with the idea people can freely protest their gov't or any cause they wish, but there is a time and place. For example, I don't support the Westboro baptists efforts. It's obscene, but they technically have the right to do what they are doing.  These players also have the right to do what they are doing, but I disagree with their venue and approach. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

What'd it take the Cubs?  98 seasons?   Vikings are at 56.   They'll reach 98 no problem.

108.  See Daily Dose of Doom thread for therapy...

[jsglow]

Who wins one first, topper, the Vikings or the Lions?

Darn good question.  Even the best franchises have a very difficult time winning the SB.

[GGGG]

I was raised to honor the flag and country, same for a moment of silence.  The right thing to do, good citizenship and a touch of class.  I was also raised to with the idea people can freely protest their gov't or any cause they wish, but there is a time and place. For example, I don't support the Westboro baptists efforts. It's obscene, but they technically have the right to do what they are doing.  These players also have the right to do what they are doing, but I disagree with their venue and approach. 

Were you also raised to be a condescending blowhard or was that a learned trait?