NFC North / NFL Thread 2017-18

[GGGG]

  i don't feel i have necessarily made or come to conclusion yet

Yeah, I guess I have no idea why anyone would assume that you have already drawn conclusions...

doesn't negate the fact that bennett did not follow police orders.

I mean, why would anyone draw that conclusion?

one has to obey the cops orders.  bennett did not.  he ended up eating concrete,  now he is trying to blame the cops for his stupidity. 

It's a mystery.

michael bennet did not heed their orders, hid behind a gaming machine, then tried to run. 

[Pakuni]

A sergeant had his/her body camera on and they captured that video.  Two Hispanic officers that tackled Bennett did not have their body cameras on.

Why is the officers' ethnicity rrelevant to whether they adhered to policy?

[MU82]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/09/browns_players_run_out_of_tunn.amp

This is how change starts. Kneeling during a National Anthem? Feel free, but it's not going to change anything.

In your opinion.

I hope you're right about the Browns and cops starting "change." We'll see!

[Dish]

That Sunday night game was utterly boring.

[dgies9156]

The one time I root for the Bears ... and they choke like dogs.

They lost because of plays a high school should never have permitted.

And Kevin White may be out for the season -- again!

UGH!!!!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/09/browns_players_run_out_of_tunn.amp

This is how change starts. Kneeling during a National Anthem? Feel free, but it's not going to change anything.

Except this likely would have never happened if several Browns players didn't kneel during the anthem together.

Only if you think things have gotten worse only because of Kaepernick's protest.

I have never seen a successful civil rights movement that didn't get worse before it got better.

[JWags85]

That Sunday night game was utterly boring.

Baffling play calling on both sides.  Giants looked inept and clueless and Eli never settled in.  The Cowboys would make clever movement and passing plays to move up the field, and then proceed to try and run into the teeth of a stout Giants D line the minute the crossed the 50.  I lost track of the number of drives that stalled on a short field.

"Marquee" games after the noon kicks were just awful.

[wadesworld]

Except this likely would have never happened if several Browns players didn't kneel during the anthem together.

I have never seen a successful civil rights movement that didn't get worse before it got better.

I'm thinking that there were a number of things that were more influential in causing things to get worse before they got better (which we don't know if they will but hopefully this is a first step) ahead of a football player taking the attention away from the National Anthem and putting it on himself. Collin Kaepernick's taking a knee or the presidential election and everything our president has done in office, plus the response to that. I'm thinking it's the ladder much more so than the former.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm thinking that there were a number of things that were more influential in causing things to get worse before they got better (which we don't know if they will but hopefully this is a first step) ahead of a football player taking the attention away from the National Anthem and putting it on himself. Collin Kaepernick's taking a knee or the presidential election and everything our president has done in office, plus the response to that. I'm thinking it's the ladder much more so than the former.

You can try to spin this any way you like, but without Kaepernick, yesterday's demonstration doesn't happen. Protests almost always piss the people in power off before it leads to positive change. This one is likely no different. We'll see how much changes but even a skeptic like you seems to think this is going to work!

[wadesworld]

You can try to spin this any way you like, but without Kaepernick, yesterday's demonstration doesn't happen. Protests almost always piss the people in power off before it leads to positive change. This one is likely no different. We'll see how much changes but even a skeptic like you seems to think this is going to work!

I don't know that anything needs to be spun.  Kneeling for the National Anthem accomplishes absolutely nothing other than taking the spotlight off of the National Anthem and putting it on a single individual.  It's not creating some cultural change.

I've said it all along, kneeling will do nothing at all.  Get involved in the community and in the conversation as to how to fix the things that you believe need to be changed.  Use your platform as a professional athlete to have your voice heard.  If you want change, go out and vote.  Don't kneel for the National Anthem because of the injustices you face and then refuse to vote.

Good move by the Browns.  They see a need to change so they're willing to step up and engage in conversation with people that can help make those changes.

[GGGG]

Always fun seeing a white person telling black person how to protest against racism properly. 

[wadesworld]

Always fun seeing a white person telling black person how to protest against racism properly.

Or simply discussing what is effective, but I guess I can't comment on whether Kaepernick's protest worked because I'm not black.  Lol.

[JWags85]

Always fun seeing a white person telling black person how to protest against racism properly.

No, not telling them how to, that would at least be instructive.  This is just saying what they are doing isn't the right way.  "I dont know how you should do it instead, just dont do that".

[wadesworld]

No, not telling them how to, that would at least be instructive.  This is just saying what they are doing isn't the right way.  "I dont know how you should do it instead, just dont do that".

The ability to read helps.

[B. McBannerson]

Why is the officers' ethnicity rrelevant to whether they adhered to policy?

I'm hard pressed to remember with few exceptions (Utah nurse, etc), where posts here about police aren't about ethnicity, race.  That is why people post them, to bring up some type of awareness or plight. Do you disagree?

This is about Michael Bennett in Vegas, right?  He said he is protesting the treatment of minorities by law enforcement after being "a black man in the wrong place."  That is a charge of racism, right?  The fact the two police that tackled him are also minorities is not relevant?  If the officers were African American, how does this story go? How about if the officers were caucasian?  Of course it is relevant because the entire premise of the argument people are making is a racist charge.

The union's letter, authored by Detective Steve Grammas, claims police had "reasonable suspicion" to detain Bennett while they determined if he was a suspect. It concludes that Bennett's claims that the officers, which the department has said are each Hispanic, are racist is "false and offensive to the men and women of law enforcement" and says the union is happy to meet with Goodell.

[GGGG]

I'm hard pressed to remember with few exceptions (Utah nurse, etc), where posts here about police aren't about ethnicity, race.  That is why people post them, to bring up some type of awareness or plight. Do you disagree?

This is about Michael Bennett in Vegas, right?  He said he is protesting the treatment of minorities by law enforcement after being "a black man in the wrong place."  That is a charge of racism, right?  The fact the two police that tackled him are also minorities is not relevant?  If the officers were African American, how does this story go? How about if the officers were caucasian?  Of course it is relevant because the entire premise of the argument people are making is a racist charge.

It doesn't matter one bit.  Racism can be perpetrated by anyone.  A black person can conduct racist acts against another black person. 

[JWags85]

The ability to read helps.

I can read.  But continue being a condescending know-it-all. You've just suggested nothing different than what people have said to do for years. As mentioned before, the media hasn't acknowledged the myriad of good things Kap did in the community.  And the teams/league certainly aren't going to give a player a soapbox to expressive controversial views.  Ive already said I agree with you that him refusing to vote cheapens his message, but otherwise.

And you deeming something ineffective in under a year when its seeking to bring about larger scale, macro change is wildly premature.  There's a conversation, other players are invested, the actions at the beginning of the Browns game was great.  None of this happens quickly or easily.  Desegregation didn't happen in 6 months.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't know that anything needs to be spun.  Kneeling for the National Anthem accomplishes absolutely nothing other than taking the spotlight off of the National Anthem and putting it on a single individual.  It's not creating some cultural change.

I've said it all along, kneeling will do nothing at all.  Get involved in the community and in the conversation as to how to fix the things that you believe need to be changed.  Use your platform as a professional athlete to have your voice heard.  If you want change, go out and vote.  Don't kneel for the National Anthem because of the injustices you face and then refuse to vote.

Good move by the Browns.  They see a need to change so they're willing to step up and engage in conversation with people that can help make those changes.

But it did. Kaepernick kneeled, which led to the Browns kneeling, which led to the demonstration that we saw yesterday. The third event doesn't happen without the first one.

[wadesworld]

I can read.  But continue being a condescending know-it-all. You've just suggested nothing different than what people have said to do for years. As mentioned before, the media hasn't acknowledged the myriad of good things Kap did in the community.  And the teams/league certainly aren't going to give a player a soapbox to expressive controversial views.  Ive already said I agree with you that him refusing to vote cheapens his message, but otherwise.

And you deeming something ineffective in under a year when its seeking to bring about larger scale, macro change is wildly premature.  There's a conversation, other players are invested, the actions at the beginning of the Browns game was great.  None of this happens quickly or easily.  Desegregation didn't happen in 6 months.

So is it just the NFL that wouldn't give their players a "soapbox to expressive controversial views?"  I don't know what the process was for Wade, LBJ, CP3, and Carmelo to get their soapbox for the ESPYs, but I would imagine that if 4 of the biggest names in the NFL went to the ESPYs on their own and asked if they could share a message for the viewing audience to see during the ESPYs and the ESPYs agreed to it there wouldn't be much the NFL could do to stop it.  If professional athletes want their voices to be heard they can usually find a way to have them heard.

[Pakuni]

I'm hard pressed to remember with few exceptions (Utah nurse, etc), where posts here about police aren't about ethnicity, race.  That is why people post them, to bring up some type of awareness or plight. Do you disagree?

This is about Michael Bennett in Vegas, right?  He said he is protesting the treatment of minorities by law enforcement after being "a black man in the wrong place."  That is a charge of racism, right?  The fact the two police that tackled him are also minorities is not relevant?  If the officers were African American, how does this story go? How about if the officers were caucasian?  Of course it is relevant because the entire premise of the argument people are making is a racist charge.

No, the fact the two officers are Hispanic is not relevant to whether Michael Bennett was a victim of bias.
In fact, it also would be irrelevant if the officers were black. Unless your stance is that minorities are incapable of bias. Is that your position here?
How about you spend a few minutes educating yourself about implicit bias and how it leads to things like this happening.
Or think about this ... by all accounts (and backed up by video), many people were running from this nightclub when police arrived at the scene. Also by all accounts, Michael Bennett was the only one detained with a gun to his head.
Why do you think that is? Why, of all the people fleeing from the club, was Bennett singled out as the "dangerous" one?

And no, the entire premise of the argument is not, as you seem to believe, about white cops and black citizens. It's about all cops and black citizens. It's about a law enforcement culture that says of all the people running from a reported shooting, the black guy is the dangerous one. One that says a 12-year-old black boy with a toy gun needs to be shot first and asked questions later. One that says a black man shopping for a BB gun in a Walmart needs to be put down. One that says a black teenager can be shot to death by police while on his own driveway for acting suspiciously.
I don't even blame the individual cops here. I blame the inadequate training they receive and jaundiced culture in which they're indocrinated.
But culture change is hard, and first would require an admission that the culture is deeply flawed. It's much easier to bury our heads in the sand and pretend a large portion of our fellow Americans suffer mass hysteria.

And this is way off the topic of the 2017-18 NFL season, so I'll no longer discuss this in this thread.

[MUBBau]

Will Lacy still be on the Seahawks this week?

[wadesworld]

Will Lacy still be on the Seahawks this week?

I was thinking the same thing.  He looked awful.  But so does their O line.

[CreightonWarrior]

I was thinking the same thing.  He looked awful.  But so does their O line.

His usage was laughable. Every time he was in he got the ball and they'd just run up the middle. Packers anticipated it every time.

[MerrittsMustache]

But it did. Kaepernick kneeled, which led to the Browns kneeling, which led to the demonstration that we saw yesterday. The third event doesn't happen without the first one.

I'll admit that I was critical of Kaepernick's protest because "nothing was being accomplished." However, it's hard to argue that his taking a knee didn't contribute to the scene of unity in Cleveland yesterday. While I still think Kap was ill-prepared and botched his protest's aftermath, he still deserves credit for getting the ball rolling. The Browns and the city of Cleveland got it right. (How often do you hear that?) The players' demonstration upset the police so the players reached out and the groups got together to discuss where they were coming from and find a symbolic solution to show that they were working together towards a common goal. Hopefully this leads to more players reaching out to community leaders and attempting to literally have their voices heard.

[BM1090]

Does this happen without Kaepernick's protest? I don't think so.

Exactly. Kaepernick's protest is what led to all these other protests. He did start the change.