NBA '17

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

He's surrounded by a couple average players and a bunch of junk.  He has pretty much single handedly got them in the playoffs and above .500 in the West.

Not saying he doesn't potentially deserve the MVP but an interesting observation on some statistics nonetheless.

http://thebiglead.com/2017/03/24/is-russell-westbrook-padding-his-rebounding-stats-by-leaving-his-defender-stats-say-he-is/

[wadesworld]

Westbrook has contested less 3 point FGA than any player in the NBA averaging over 30 minutes per game other than Rudy Gobert and Hassan Whiteside. D'Andre Jordan has contested more 3 point attempts this year than Russ. Russ contests 3.4 FGA out of his opponents 13.1 FGA. 74% of his opponent's FGA are uncontested. He's the worst guard in the NBA in expected FG % against. The Thunder rank last in opponent guards' expected FG% against. Basically Russell doesn't play defense and goes to chase down rebounds at the expense of playing D and contesting shots. Outstanding. Number chaser at its finest.

[BM1090]

I believe the Thunder are 30-8 when Westbrook has a triple double. So if winning is the most important thing, Westbrook needs the ball even more.

This team is basically the Brooklyn Nets if you take away Westbrook. With him, there is a chance in every game that you can win.

And, remember he is doing this with no help. This isn't him WITH Durant or Michael WITH Scottie or Steph WITH Thompson or Lebron WITH wade or Lebron With Kyrie.

It is all Westbrook and the Thunder are in the running for the #1 overall pick without him.

One guy can make good players better. No one can make bad players better. Michael couln't. Lebron couldn't. Westbrook can't.

As far as wanting to be a star rather than wanting to win? I would love to see any speck of truth to prove your point.

You're absolutely right that this isn't the same as the guys that you listed. But all of those guys elevated good teams into being great ones. They all were the best teams in the NBA. Westbrook is awesome but he has elevated a very bad team to the 12th best team in the NBA. Is that more impressive than lifting the 8th best team to the best?

Also, people seem to forget that the Thunder were projected to be better than Houston in the preseason by both the writers and odds makers. Houston was projected in the 8th seed or missing the playoffs all together. Oklahoma City was projected as.....the 6 seed in the west.

And who are the ideal teammates for Russell Westbrook? If you give him Houston's roster and D'antoni does he do more than what Harden does? Debatable, but the answer is no IMO.

That said, whoever wins the MVP deserves it. I personally would vote Harden but I have no issue with Russ.

[Jockey]

That said, whoever wins the MVP deserves it. I personally would vote Harden but I have no issue with Russ.

I feel the same although I would put Russ first.

And it doesn't really matter. We all know who the MVP is in the NBA.

[MerrittsMustache]

Westbrook has contested less 3 point FGA than any player in the NBA averaging over 30 minutes per game other than Rudy Gobert and Hassan Whiteside. D'Andre Jordan has contested more 3 point attempts this year than Russ. Russ contests 3.4 FGA out of his opponents 13.1 FGA. 74% of his opponent's FGA are uncontested. He's the worst guard in the NBA in expected FG % against. The Thunder rank last in opponent guards' expected FG% against. Basically Russell doesn't play defense and goes to chase down rebounds at the expense of playing D and contesting shots. Outstanding. Number chaser at its finest.

Good analysis, wades. Westbrook is an incredible talent but his whole goal this season was seemingly to show people he's better than Durant and/or better without Durant. His means of doing so was to chase stats.

I believe the Thunder are 30-8 when Westbrook has a triple double. So if winning is the most important thing, Westbrook needs the ball even more.

This stat is misleading. It basically says that when the player who constantly dominates the ball plays well, his team wins. When he doesn't play well, his team loses. In losses, his efficiency numbers drop significantly while his usage increases by nearly 4%. He had an all-time great season from a traditional statistics standpoint but his usage percentage was the highest in NBA history and he was very underwhelming from an efficiency standpoint.

Big picture, I don't think he's helping the franchise improve. Do you think that any marquee free agents are going to consider joining OKC to play with a guy who dominates the ball and chases stats in that manner?

[MerrittsMustache]

We all know that the NBA Draft Lottery has never been rigged ( ) but I'd love to see Miami somehow ( ) win the lottery and get the #1 pick. While a significant number of NBA teams were blatantly tanking down the stretch, the Heat, who lost their 2 best players and easily could have checked out in mid-January, went 30-11 in the second half of the season and were battling their tales off to earn the 8-seed in the East. Instead, they'll likely be "rewarded" with the #14 pick and the opportunity to draft a mid-level role player.
 
Where's the justice in the world?! Oh yeah, Justise was on the bench with a torn labrum after just 18 games.

[Jockey]

Big picture, I don't think he's helping the franchise improve. Do you think that any marquee free agents are going to consider joining OKC to play with a guy who dominates the ball and chases stats in that manner?

Then you don't understand basketball. They are a top 3 lottery pick without Russ. They are a 6 seed with him.

You know as well as I, that his usage would go down if there was another marquee guy on the team.

And the reason guys would not consider the team is that it is in Bumblef**k, Oklahoma.

[GGGG]

We all know that the NBA Draft Lottery has never been rigged ( ) but I'd love to see Miami somehow ( ) win the lottery and get the #1 pick. While a significant number of NBA teams were blatantly tanking down the stretch, the Heat, who lost their 2 best players and easily could have checked out in mid-January, went 30-11 in the second half of the season and were battling their tales off to earn the 8-seed in the East. Instead, they'll likely be "rewarded" with the #14 pick and the opportunity to draft a mid-level role player.
 
Where's the justice in the world?! Oh yeah, Justise was on the bench with a torn labrum after just 18 games.

The best way to stop tanking is to create a system that doesn't reward it.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nbas-possible-solution-for-tanking-good-bye-to-the-lottery-hello-to-the-wheel/

[wadesworld]

Fourty freaking three field goal attempts for Russell Westbrook tonight. And that doesn't even include the missed shots on fouls that sent him to the free throw line (18 free throw attempts). Eighteen field goal attempts in the fourth quarter. Some of the decisions are absolutely embarrassing. And no wonder they suck with him not in. Everybody's like, "what's this orange thing you just threw to me?"

If I'm trying to win 50 regular season games and not worry one bit about the postseason Russell Westbrook is the first player I want on my team. If I want to win an NBA Title I'm not sure I wouldn't take Delly over Russ as my PG.

[GGGG]

Fourty freaking three field goal attempts for Russell Westbrook tonight. And that doesn't even include the missed shots on fouls that sent him to the free throw line (18 free throw attempts). Eighteen field goal attempts in the fourth quarter. Some of the decisions are absolutely embarrassing. And no wonder they suck with him not in. Everybody's like, "what's this orange thing you just threw to me?"

If I'm trying to win 50 regular season games and not worry one bit about the postseason Russell Westbrook is the first player I want on my team. If I want to win an NBA Title I'm not sure I wouldn't take Delly over Russ as my PG.

He's on a team full of crap. What do you expect?

[DegenerateDish]

I don't blame Westbrook, they were up around a dozen late third, he sat out for what felt like not even a minute, and the lead was gone. If I remember correct, he nearly checked himself back in, he couldn't take it. Stat line in the context of how that game played out is way misleading, he assisted on 13 of the Thunder's 20 assists.

[#UnleashSean]

Sometimes I read scoop and I get a massive head scratcher. These have included Maddon being the worst manager, Henry only getting easy rebounds, Cohen should start, Arrieta uses roids because he hit a ball 440 feet, etc. The newest one is that the Thunder would be better without Westbrook. My god you people struggle sometimes.

[Jockey]

Sometimes I read scoop and I get a massive head scratcher. These have included Maddon being the worst manager, Henry only getting easy rebounds, Cohen should start, Arrieta uses roids because he hit a ball 440 feet, etc. The newest one is that the Thunder would be better without Westbrook. My god you people struggle sometimes.

Couldn't agree more.

Those are only a prelude to MU's season though. It really gets crazy then.

[wadesworld]

Sometimes I read scoop and I get a massive head scratcher. These have included Maddon being the worst manager, Henry only getting easy rebounds, Cohen should start, Arrieta uses roids because he hit a ball 440 feet, etc. The newest one is that the Thunder would be better without Westbrook. My god you people struggle sometimes.

Arrieta on roids has more to do with him being ass bad as a pitcher until he hit the age of 28 and then suddenly being the best pitcher on the face of the planet. That's not when you normally figure things out, or the extent you normally figure them out to.

I don't care who it is and who is around him. No team in the history of basketball is winning an NBA Playoff basketball game when one player shoots the ball 43 times in a game, without even taking into account the shots he took that he got fouled on. I can't tell you how many times Russ came down the court and either immediately pulled up for a contested 3 or tried to drive in a straight line to the hoop into 4 defenders and put up a contested shot. No kidding nobody else can do anything for the Thunder. No offense is ever run whatsoever. It's just get the ball to Russ and get out of the way.

What NBA player couldn't score 51 points if they shot the ball 43 times and shot 18 free throws in a game? That's a serious question.

[wadesworld]

Here's another question I have.  What makes the Rockets supporting cast so much superior to the Thunder's?  Eric Gordon is a high volume scorer who does absolutely nothing else, Lou Williams gets passed along from team to team like a hot potato, and then you have Ryan Anderson, Clint Capela, Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverly, Nene, Sam Dekker...  I don't see how that's much, if any, better than Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Gibson, Roberson, and Sabonis.  The only difference I see is Harden is willing to let his relatively-average supporting cast shoot the ball sometimes while Russ isn't willing to do the same.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sometimes I read scoop and I get a massive head scratcher. These have included Maddon being the worst manager, Henry only getting easy rebounds, Cohen should start, Arrieta uses roids because he hit a ball 440 feet, etc. The newest one is that the Thunder would be better without Westbrook. My god you people struggle sometimes.

Where did anyone say that?

[MerrittsMustache]

He's on a team full of crap. What do you expect?

I'd expect him to get his teammates involved and stop trying to literally win a game all by himself.

Like wades pointed out, the Thunder's roster is very comparable to the Rockets'. Oladipo is a better all-around player than Gordon. Gibson is a better all-around PF than Anderson. Adams and Kanter are at least as good as the Rockets' bigs, if not better. The teams are obviously built differently given the Rockets' emphasis on 3-point shooting but it's not like James Harden is surrounded by anything other than role players.

[MU82]

wades and Merritts:

When Harden penetrates and dishes, he has a reasonable expectation that his teammates will make shots. Westbrook? Not so much.

During the game's decisive stretch, Westbrook penetrated and dished on 5 out of 6 possessions. His teammates failed to score on all 5 - including layups by Oladipo (who blows), Sabonis and Singler. The Rockets, meanwhile, were taking control of the game with Harden on the freakin' bench, as Gordon, Beverley and Williams came through.

The Rockets have nice balance on the perimeter, with legit defensive stoppers such as Beverley and Ariza, who also happen to be able to make shots when Harden gets them the ball in scoring position.

If you saw the game, you know that Westbrook chucked up a bunch of 4th-quarter shots out of frustration and desperation after his teammates sucked big-time. I AM NOT COMPARING WESTBROOK TO MJ AS A PLAYER, but I am saying that some of the exact same criticism being levied at Westbrook right now is what was being said about Jordan when he was a one-man team in the mid-'80s.

[MUBurrow]

What makes the Rockets supporting cast so much superior to the Thunder's?  Eric Gordon is a high volume scorer who does absolutely nothing else, Lou Williams gets passed along from team to team like a hot potato, and then you have Ryan Anderson, Clint Capela, Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverly, Nene, Sam Dekker...  I don't see how that's much, if any, better than Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Gibson, Roberson, and Sabonis.

Like wades pointed out, the Thunder's roster is very comparable to the Rockets'. Oladipo is a better all-around player than Gordon. Gibson is a better all-around PF than Anderson. Adams and Kanter are at least as good as the Rockets' bigs, if not better. The teams are obviously built differently given the Rockets' emphasis on 3-point shooting but it's not like James Harden is surrounded by anything other than role players.

Westbrook objectively had an awful 4th qtr yesterday, but I'll take the bait here. The Rockets after Harden are a dramatically better team than OKC outside of Westbrook.  Adams is a good player, but its just untrue that Kanter factors into a comparison to Capela/Nene.  Kanter is so bad in space that Donovan can't play him. 

That speaks to what makes the Rockets cast so much better - and why the attack on Westbrook's motivations are so tired - there is a theory in the Rockets' roster construction, whereas OKC's current roster is built on the assumption KD would be there. The Rockets run the floor well. They have players that can spread it (don't @ me w/ Roberson and Oladipo being comparable to Gordon, Anderson and Ariza. Gordon, Anderson and Ariza were 4th, 9th and 14th respectively in 3FG made this season - and keep in mind that Westbrook only averaged 5 more FGA per game than Harden. Anderson is arguably the best shooting 4 in the game.  To say that Gibson is a better all around 4 than Anderson is like saying Mitch Moreland is a better 1B than Edwin Encarnacion because he hits for higher average and plays better defense. I'll take Anderson's effect on a game, and the freedom it gives you to put together the rest of the roster, over Taj any day.  Beverly is one of the top perimeter defenders in the league. Even if you want to say that Oladipo and Roberson aren't bad players, they aren't particularly good at anything. Houston's roster is balanced with guys that have some deficiencies, but are among the best in the league at their respective specialties.

[wadesworld]

wades and Merritts:

When Harden penetrates and dishes, he has a reasonable expectation that his teammates will make shots. Westbrook? Not so much.

During the game's decisive stretch, Westbrook penetrated and dished on 5 out of 6 possessions. His teammates failed to score on all 5 - including layups by Oladipo (who blows), Sabonis and Singler. The Rockets, meanwhile, were taking control of the game with Harden on the freakin' bench, as Gordon, Beverley and Williams came through.

The Rockets have nice balance on the perimeter, with legit defensive stoppers such as Beverley and Ariza, who also happen to be able to make shots when Harden gets them the ball in scoring position.

If you saw the game, you know that Westbrook chucked up a bunch of 4th-quarter shots out of frustration and desperation after his teammates sucked big-time. I AM NOT COMPARING WESTBROOK TO MJ AS A PLAYER, but I am saying that some of the exact same criticism being levied at Westbrook right now is what was being said about Jordan when he was a one-man team in the mid-'80s.

Westbrook chucked up a bunch of shots in the 4th out of frustration?  Come on.  Westbrook took his first shot of the 4th quarter while they were up by 1 with 8:33 left.  He took EIGHTEEN shots in 8:33!  Just getting that many shots up in that amount of time for a single player is probably the most impressive stat of his night!  EIGHTEEN!  (He only made 4 of those.)  And 3 more that resulted in fouls!  So he shot the ball 21 times and was fouled on 3 of them over the course of the last 8:33 of the game, when they went from up 1 to down 5.

[Jockey]

wades and Merritts:


I AM NOT COMPARING WESTBROOK TO MJ AS A PLAYER, but I am saying that some of the exact same criticism being levied at Westbrook right now is what was being said about Jordan when he was a one-man team in the mid-'80s.

Jordan was a ball hog who only looked at his own stats. Magic and Bird made everyone around them better.

At least that was the line back in the day. Cuz we know that Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Scott, McHale, Parrish, Johnson, etc., etc., needed Bird and Magic to turn them into players.

[HouWarrior]

Westbrook objectively had an awful 4th qtr yesterday, but I'll take the bait here. The Rockets after Harden are a dramatically better team than OKC outside of Westbrook.  Adams is a good player, but its just untrue that Kanter factors into a comparison to Capela/Nene.  Kanter is so bad in space that Donovan can't play him. 

That speaks to what makes the Rockets cast so much better - and why the attack on Westbrook's motivations are so tired - there is a theory in the Rockets' roster construction, whereas OKC's current roster is built on the assumption KD would be there. The Rockets run the floor well. They have players that can spread it (don't @ me w/ Roberson and Oladipo being comparable to Gordon, Anderson and Ariza. Gordon, Anderson and Ariza were 4th, 9th and 14th respectively in 3FG made this season - and keep in mind that Westbrook only averaged 5 more FGA per game than Harden. Anderson is arguably the best shooting 4 in the game.  To say that Gibson is a better all around 4 than Anderson is like saying Mitch Moreland is a better 1B than Edwin Encarnacion because he hits for higher average and plays better defense. I'll take Anderson's effect on a game, and the freedom it gives you to put together the rest of the roster, over Taj any day.  Beverly is one of the top perimeter defenders in the league. Even if you want to say that Oladipo and Roberson aren't bad players, they aren't particularly good at anything. Houston's roster is balanced with guys that have some deficiencies, but are among the best in the league at their respective specialties.

For 38 years, I have been here rooting for and dissecting the Rockets . I agree with the above post.

This years team has excelled not because of the overall skills of each player (except Harden who gives all you need at the point) . Each of the supporting cast is simply placed into the position to do what they do best...thats all we want of them. We traded Corey Brewer for Lou Williams simply to give us more 3s from the second unit . Brewer may have been better at other facets, but Rockets are committed to an all or nothing inside the paint and 3 point shooting system. We dont recruit guys with great mid range jumpers. D'Antoni's biggest challenge is to get our squad committed to enough defense to win...scoring is not our concern.

There are lots of good players on many other teams including OKC but this years Rockets are constructed to be the sum of their parts. Its been entertaining to watch, 3rd best league record, and we like them. The real test is in the Western conf to see if our system and parts are good enough against likely matchups against OKC, San Antonio and GS .

Essentially this is a pick your poison system. In game one OKC decided to step out and challenge the 3s, so we drove in for 68 paint points. In game two they tried some sagging and challenging, and the switching brought the game closer. Our 12-3 3rd quarter run was with Westbrook benched so Donovan denied him his early 4th quarter rest, played him all of 4th and he clearly pressed and shot poorly. Westbrook felt he had to take over. Harden did the same in prior years...this year Harden has rarely pressed to take over...clearly Harden has much more confidence in his cast to kick it out or alley oop in the paint. Its fun to watch

[CTWarrior]

Jordan was a ball hog who only looked at his own stats. Magic and Bird made everyone around them better.

At least that was the line back in the day. Cuz we know that Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Scott, McHale, Parrish, Johnson, etc., etc., needed Bird and Magic to turn them into players.

I always thought Jordan hurt basketball down the line, by perfecting hero ball.  The problem is not that Jordan did what he did, it is that the others who emulate him are not Jordan.

[reinko]

Fourty freaking three field goal attempts for Russell Westbrook tonight. And that doesn't even include the missed shots on fouls that sent him to the free throw line (18 free throw attempts). Eighteen field goal attempts in the fourth quarter. Some of the decisions are absolutely embarrassing. And no wonder they suck with him not in. Everybody's like, "what's this orange thing you just threw to me?"

If I'm trying to win 50 regular season games and not worry one bit about the postseason Russell Westbrook is the first player I want on my team. If I want to win an NBA Title I'm not sure I wouldn't take Delly over Russ as my PG.

I always wondered who the Skip Bayless, First Take, Pardon the Interruption, Jason Whitlock HOT TAKE demo was, finally found out.

[wadesworld]

I always wondered who the Skip Bayless, First Take, Pardon the Interruption, Jason Whitlock HOT TAKE demo was, finally found out.

That's fine.  I don't mind being alone in having the opinion that taking 18 shots over the last 8 minutes and 33 seconds of a basketball game, plus 3 shots that resulted in fouls, is way, way, way too much hero ball.  Russell Westbrook took 18 shots and 6 free throws in the last 8:33 while the rest of the entire Thunder team took 5 shots and 0 free throws in the last 8:33.  If thinking Russell Westbrook was hurting his team down the stretch is a hot take I'm all for being the king of hot takes.