NBA '17

[GGGG]

If he had done that it'd be fine.

I have no problem with saying that because Lebron plays in the era of PED's, there is a chance that he may have used them.  That does not mean that he is "clearly using".

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52904.msg1028204#msg1028204

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

No but Spoelstra is a top 5 NBA coach right now IMO.

I remember spending all that time and energy crapping on the video boy when he was hired. Boy did he prove me wrong.

[Its DJOver]

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52904.msg1028204#msg1028204

You took exception to my post about guilty until proven innocent.  That post was a direct response to forgetful saying that Lebron was "clearly using".  "Clearly using" was an accusation that has no proof behind it.

[Pakuni]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7496846

This doesn't say what you claimed, at least not the abstract you provided. It simply states that FFMI  " may represent a useful initial measure to screen for" a specific type of PED, while also stating the results are preliminary.
That's substantially different from your claim that LeBron's physique "is physiologically impossible without PEDs."

If you want definitive, its not going to happen, there are very very few things in the world that can be determined definitively, and PED use or non-use is not one of them.

Sincerely,
Ryan Braun

But the conclusion that he most likely used PEDs is indeed valid and consistent with data/information.

Complete nonsense. You're throwing out a bunch of subjective observations (jaw growth, based on no actual measurement), speculative reasoning and unrelated circumstances (he lived in Miami  ... Tony Bosch lived in Miami .... there must be a connection!)  and declaring conclusive evidence.

[forgetful]

You took exception to my post about guilty until proven innocent.  That post was a direct response to forgetful saying that Lebron was "clearly using".  "Clearly using" was an accusation that has no proof behind it.

To me "clearly using" and based on data/information is "most likely" using are equivalent statements.

"clearly" merely equates to "most consistent with existing information".  And such a conclusion, can by definition be only made by an individual, and hence is by definition an opinion.

Your guilty until proven innocent is a completely different matter.  Although I think he "clearly" or equivalently "most likely" was using, I would vehemently defend him from any punishment based on that information/conclusion. 

Reason being, there is equal data to suggest numerous others in the NBA and other sports are using, and they are not and should not be punished.  I was against the punishment doled out to Armstrong for similar reasons.  There are testing guidelines, and associated rules agreed upon by the governing bodies.  That is the only metric by which someone can be punished.

[Its DJOver]

To me "clearly using" and based on data/information is "most likely" using are equivalent statements.

"clearly" merely equates to "most consistent with existing information".  And such a conclusion, can by definition be only made by an individual, and hence is by definition an opinion.

Your guilty until proven innocent is a completely different matter.  Although I think he "clearly" or equivalently "most likely" was using, I would vehemently defend him from any punishment based on that information/conclusion. 

Reason being, there is equal data to suggest numerous others in the NBA and other sports are using, and they are not and should not be punished.  I was against the punishment doled out to Armstrong for similar reasons.  There are testing guidelines, and associated rules agreed upon by the governing bodies.  That is the only metric by which someone can be punished.

Most likely and clearly are not the same, but as long as it is clear that it is your opinion, (which it now is) that Lebron has used PED's, by all means proceed.  I only really took exception to the accusatory manner in which you presented your argument.

As four your second point I guess we half agree.  No punishment should be handed out unless there is an admission of guilt or a positive test,(confirmed by two independent testers) but once that does happen, the penalty should be severe, Armstrong absolutely got what he deserved.  The only way to make the PED problem go away is by making the risk higher than the reward.

[forgetful]

This doesn't say what you claimed, at least not the abstract you provided. It simply states that FFMI  " may represent a useful initial measure to screen for" a specific type of PED, while also stating the results are preliminary.

That's substantially different from your claim that LeBron's physique "is physiologically impossible without PEDs."

Complete nonsense. You're throwing out a bunch of subjective observations (jaw growth, based on no actual measurement), speculative reasoning and unrelated circumstances (he lived in Miami  ... Tony Bosch lived in Miami .... there must be a connection!)  and declaring conclusive evidence.

You're looking at their conclusion line, and ignoring the underlying data.  Also, I linked the seminal paper, not many subsequent studies that came to similar conclusions.  The underlying data puts Lebron well above the ffmi limit for elite athletes that are non-users.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't be natural.  He could be in that 0.001% of the population, and given that he is a professional athlete, it is more likely than normal.  So it is a single data point.  He also had an unusual jaw tumor (not growth) that is typical/consistent with hormone abuse.  He had to have surgery to remove that tumor. That is another data point. 

Add to it, 20 lbs of muscle mass loss in a single summer (Carmelo had the same thing happen, weirdly in the same year), which happened to be before the first year HGH testing began.

And bone growth in the skull (see Barry Bonds).

And you have numerous pieces of information that are all consistent with the same cause...PED usage.  The likelihood that all these occur in an individual separate for PED use, is quite unlikely.  I actually can't come up with a single cause consistent with all of them, it would require multiple rare and unlikely conditions coinciding in the same person.

[forgetful]

Most likely and clearly are not the same, but as long as it is clear that it is your opinion, (which it now is) that Lebron has used PED's, by all means proceed.  I only really took exception to the accusatory manner in which you presented your argument.

As four your second point I guess we half agree.  No punishment should be handed out unless there is an admission of guilt or a positive test,(confirmed by two independent testers) but once that does happen, the penalty should be severe, Armstrong absolutely got what he deserved.  The only way to make the PED problem go away is by making the risk higher than the reward.

I'm not particularly known for using clear and precise language on a message board; the board is an outlet from a profession that requires constant attention to detail and clear and precise arguments.

As a result of my wanting to not have to do that all the time, I take heat on here for my verbiage, which is 100% my fault and deserved.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have no idea if Lebron is using PEDs or not.

But to suggest he had greater access to them than Jordan in the 90s is simply not true. PEDs have been around forever and the 90s was arguably when they were the most rampant.

[MU82]

Well forgetful, if you think "clearly" and "most likely" are the same, why should anybody else even bother having a conversation with you?

Clearly is a definitive statement.

Most likely ... well that clearly is NOT a definitive statement.

It's all your opinion, and that's cool, just don't pass it off as fact. As sultan said, this ain't a court of law. You don't have to "prove" anything. But don't be surprised when your friendly Scoop brothers and sisters call you out for expressing opinion as fact.

And yes, just because you think LeBron is the No. 2 player in history, it doesn't mean you don't try to trash him at every opportunity in a desperate attempt to prove he's lesser-than.

Again, that's your prerogative. But it clearly isn't fact-based. Most likely.

[Its DJOver]

I'm not particularly known for using clear and precise language on a message board; the board is an outlet from a profession that requires constant attention to detail and clear and precise arguments.

As a result of my wanting to not have to do that all the time, I take heat on here for my verbiage, which is 100% my fault and deserved.

We're all good.  I try not to jump on people over semantics, especially as trivial as clearly vs most likely, and the only reason I did is precisely because I believe that punishment for PED use should be much higher than it currently is.

[Jay Bee]

I'm not particularly known for using clear and precise language on a message board; the board is an outlet from a profession that requires constant attention to detail and clear and precise arguments.

As a result of my wanting to not have to do that all the time, I take heat on here for my verbiage, which is 100% my fault and deserved.

So, um... you're like super dumb if you don't try extraordinarily hard to not be and stuff? uhh..

[forgetful]

So, um... you're like super dumb if you don't try extraordinarily hard to not be and stuff? uhh..

I don't know why I'm addressing this at all, and will not address it directly, rather take this as an opportunity to say something else. 

We all have our takes/opinions that push us down rabbit holes, for me that is mostly Lebron and the education industry (think eFG% for you).  I know that those two topics can take me in directions, which to say it nicely, bring out undesirable traits in me.  But what I like about message boards is there are people from all walks of life that can teach us about ourselves, particularly certain posters...that we don't have to ever meet, but impact us. 

examples.

Pakuni.  Never met them, respect the hell out of how they carry theirselves on here and what they have to say.  When I get into discussions, where they seem irritated by my statements/thoughts it gets to me, because it says something I am saying is either poorly phrased, overly aggressive/hyperbole, or possibly just plain wrong, which makes me go back over what I wrote (oftentimes not as clear as I would like), or go back and research more making me a more knowledgable person.

MU82.  Generally knowledgable across multiple topics, appears to be a generally good human being, which there are not enough of anymore.  Same things as above apply; learned a lot reading his posts and at times being on the receiving end of his arguments. 

Sultan.  Admittedly, gets under my skin a bit more because of his sharp tone at times, but still greatly appreciate his insight as he is quite knowledgeable and seems like a genuinely good human being.  There are several things that I would explicitly ask his insight on (e.g. NBA), because he is far more knowledgeable than I.

There are numerous others I could say the same thing about, and others that just are inspiring (Tower, Dish...many others) I bring these up in particular, because I was arguing with them mostly in this thread.  The list of people I have the utmost respect for having never met them in my life on this board is exhaustingly long.

In general what makes me amazed at this community, is that I would go through great lengths and way out of my way to offer nearly all of them any assistance or help in real life that they needed and asked, without ever meeting them because of their genuinely great nature. 

With that said, when you make a statement like the above, is that how you want to be perceived?  Do you think it brings about your best qualities as a human being?

[Jay Bee]

^^^ u in a dark place bruh

...comin waaay outta Left field...

[MU82]

I don't know why I'm addressing this at all, and will not address it directly, rather take this as an opportunity to say something else. 

We all have our takes/opinions that push us down rabbit holes, for me that is mostly Lebron and the education industry (think eFG% for you).  I know that those two topics can take me in directions, which to say it nicely, bring out undesirable traits in me.  But what I like about message boards is there are people from all walks of life that can teach us about ourselves, particularly certain posters...that we don't have to ever meet, but impact us. 

examples.

Pakuni.  Never met them, respect the hell out of how they carry theirselves on here and what they have to say.  When I get into discussions, where they seem irritated by my statements/thoughts it gets to me, because it says something I am saying is either poorly phrased, overly aggressive/hyperbole, or possibly just plain wrong, which makes me go back over what I wrote (oftentimes not as clear as I would like), or go back and research more making me a more knowledgable person.

MU82.  Generally knowledgable across multiple topics, appears to be a generally good human being, which there are not enough of anymore.  Same things as above apply; learned a lot reading his posts and at times being on the receiving end of his arguments. 

Sultan.  Admittedly, gets under my skin a bit more because of his sharp tone at times, but still greatly appreciate his insight as he is quite knowledgeable and seems like a genuinely good human being.  There are several things that I would explicitly ask his insight on (e.g. NBA), because he is far more knowledgeable than I.

There are numerous others I could say the same thing about, and others that just are inspiring (Tower, Dish...many others) I bring these up in particular, because I was arguing with them mostly in this thread.  The list of people I have the utmost respect for having never met them in my life on this board is exhaustingly long.

In general what makes me amazed at this community, is that I would go through great lengths and way out of my way to offer nearly all of them any assistance or help in real life that they needed and asked, without ever meeting them because of their genuinely great nature. 

With that said, when you make a statement like the above, is that how you want to be perceived?  Do you think it brings about your best qualities as a human being?

Oh crap, forgetful. Now I'm blushing and I can never say anything snarky about you again! Darn you and your kind words!!!!

[Pakuni]

I don't know why I'm addressing this at all, and will not address it directly, rather take this as an opportunity to say something else. 

We all have our takes/opinions that push us down rabbit holes, for me that is mostly Lebron and the education industry (think eFG% for you).  I know that those two topics can take me in directions, which to say it nicely, bring out undesirable traits in me.  But what I like about message boards is there are people from all walks of life that can teach us about ourselves, particularly certain posters...that we don't have to ever meet, but impact us. 

Thanks for the unnecessarily kind words, but really, don't take anything I or anyone else here writes too seriously. We're all just a bunch of dopes (some of us dopier than others, I grant you) with too much time on our hands, blabbering on an online message board.
And if I've said anything that offended you, my apologies.