NBA '17

[GGGG]

EuroLeague champion (2014)
EuroLeague Coach of the Year (2014)
NBA Eastern Conference Finals Champion (2015)
NBA Championship (2016)[1]
EuroCup champion (2018)
FIBA EuroChallenge champion (2005)
Italian League champion (2006)
Italian Cup winner (2007)
Adriatic League champion (2012)
Russian Super League Coach of the Year (2005)
5× Israeli Super League champion (2002, 2003, 2011, 2012, 2014)
6× Israeli Cup winner (2002, 2003, 2011–2014)
4× Israeli Super League Coach of the Year (1996, 2002, 2011, 2014)
Russian Federation Order of Friendship award recipient (2014)

Simple cut and paste job, but do you really think he had the Lebron, Kyrie and Love combo equivalent for each of those leagues respective championships?

Yes I'm sure coaching in the Adriatic League is very similar to the NBA.

[Galway Eagle]

Yes I'm sure coaching in the Adriatic League is very similar to the NBA.

He won in the NBA and was runner up the other year.

That's a highly impressive overseas resume. It's not the same as coaching sports here in the states though.

Marc Trestman has won 3 Championships in the CFL. Do you think he's a great football coach?

Couldn't I same about coach K? He's got a highly impressive college resume but is he a good coach? If you're winning everywhere you go with the respective talent being that of the league your in then you're the common denominator this you're a good coach.

[GGGG]

He won in the NBA and was runner up the other year.

He didn't win the NBA championship.  He was fired halfway through the season.

And the fact that Tyronn Lue took the team over, and they still won the title, and made two additional Finals appearances, isn't really endorsing Blatt's coaching.

Here is an article at the time of his firing about his inability to handle NBA personalities:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/01/why_david_blatt_got_fired_and.html

He was over his head.  Just being a good European coach doesn't mean you can coach here.

[StillAWarrior]

He won in the NBA and was runner up the other year.

I'm not intending to crap on Blatt (I think he was a decent, but not great coach), but I'm struggling a little bit with your source giving him credit for the 2016 Championship when he was fired and replaced by Lue in January of that year.

[Galway Eagle]

I honestly hadn't paid too much attention to the story about LBJ's hand, other than to tell my daughter "no he didn't" after she breathlessly told me that LBJ played with a broken hand.  As I've mentioned many times, I think LBJ is a bit of a drama queen and he just seems to do this kind of crap.

However, this thread made me curious.

First a question:  not that it really matters, but was that actually a cast in the post-game presser?  Or was it black pre-wrap?  Looks like pre-wrap to me, but everyone is calling it a cast so I may be wrong.  But, the point being made by Wades (and lots of others) remains:  what's the point of going all drama queen during the post-game presser?

Next, an interesting photographic analysis of Lebron's hand during the series.  Obviously, can't speak to the seriousness of the injury, but it does look like there was, in fact, an injury. 

I'm not intending to crap on Blatt (I think he was a decent, but not great coach), but I'm struggling a little bit with your source giving him credit for the 2016 Championship when he was fired and replaced by Lue in January of that year.

Honestly forgot that happened. Mia coulpa

I still stand by my point about winning everywhere you go with the respective talent of the league then you become the common denominator

[MerrittsMustache]

Couldn't I same about coach K? He's got a highly impressive college resume but is he a good coach? If you're winning everywhere you go with the respective talent being that of the league your in then you're the common denominator this you're a good coach.

Coach K is a great college basketball coach.

Blatt is a great overseas basketball coach.

The point remains that LeBron has never had a great NBA coach.

[GGGG]

No but Spoelstra is a top 5 NBA coach right now IMO.

[Galway Eagle]

Coach K is a great college basketball coach.

Blatt is a great overseas basketball coach.

The point remains that LeBron has never had a great NBA coach.

Which is not what the original comment was. You said lebron has never had a great coach, Blatts a great coach you just said so yourself. Now managing egos etc that comes with the NBA it sounds like he was terrible at assuming sultans article was factual and thus he may not a great nba coach. That being said I think a record of 83-40 in the nba warrants at least decent when you've proven yourself everywhere else with players that aren't NBA Allstars

[GGGG]

Which is not what the original comment was. You said lebron has never had a great coach, Blatts a great coach you just said so yourself. Now managing egos etc that comes with the NBA it sounds like he was terrible at assuming sultans article was factual and thus he may not a great nba coach.

I think its obvious that he was talking about a "great NBA coach" considering that Lebron is actually in the NBA and that it's the entire context of the discussion.

[Galway Eagle]

I think its obvious that he was talking about a "great NBA coach" considering that Lebron is actually in the NBA and that it's the entire context of the discussion.

I just get tired of lebron excuses and any chance I can get to argue one I'll take 🤗

[MerrittsMustache]

Which is not what the original comment was. You said lebron has never had a great coach, Blatts a great coach you just said so yourself. Now managing egos etc that comes with the NBA it sounds like he was terrible at assuming sultans article was factual and thus he may not a great nba coach. That being said I think a record of 83-40 in the nba warrants at least decent when you've proven yourself everywhere else with players that aren't NBA Allstars

My kids' basketball teams have been the best team in their rec league for the past 4 seasons. If LeBron played for me, would that count as him playing for a great coach? After all, I've won with different players in different leagues and at different levels 

End of the day, would you put David Blatt in the same category as Phil, Popovich, Riley, Auerbach, etc?

[Galway Eagle]

My kids' basketball teams have been the best team in their rec league for the past 4 seasons. If LeBron played for me, would that count as him playing for a great coach? After all, I've won with different players in different leagues and at different levels 

End of the day, would you put David Blatt in the same category as Phil, Popovich, Riley, Auerbach, etc?

Haha valid point. I'd say you should probably be a first ballot HoF candidate.

But more seriously I'd say that Blatt warrants more consideration, obviously not Pop Jackson etc. but I think he could've been on par with a good 3/4 or so NBA coaches had he been allowed to grow the roster he signed up for

[forgetful]

While we're talking about things Lebron didn't have (great coaching), what about things he did have, but prior eras didn't...access to high end pharmaceuticals and PEDs. 

Lebron came up during the PED era.  I know he never tested positive (neither did Armstrong), but you'd have to be an idiot to think he wasn't on PEDs and most/many in the NBA also were. 

An example, when they started testing for HGH, he promptly dropped 20 pounds of muscle that offseason, and was noticeably less fit.  And of course there is the alleged association with the Bosch PED ring.

Also, many NBA athletes go to training facilities in Germany and Miami, where it is suspected a lot of experimental undetectable drugs are used.  People that are that wealthy have access to tons of things undetectable (see Edelman in the NFL that is believed to have tested positive for an unknown PED). 

Frankly, I don't care that he has likely used PEDs, because most of his peers are also likely using.  But in comparing across eras it is another factor that is not uniform, and PED usage has likely led to his extended career and fitness (no injuries).

[Pakuni]

While we're talking about things Lebron didn't have (great coaching), what about things he did have, but prior eras didn't...access to high end pharmaceuticals and PEDs. 

Lebron came up during the PED era.  I know he never tested positive (neither did Armstrong), but you'd have to be an idiot to think he wasn't on PEDs and most/many in the NBA also were. 

An example, when they started testing for HGH, he promptly dropped 20 pounds of muscle that offseason, and was noticeably less fit.  And of course there is the alleged association with the Bosch PED ring.

Also, many NBA athletes go to training facilities in Germany and Miami, where it is suspected a lot of experimental undetectable drugs are used.  People that are that wealthy have access to tons of things undetectable (see Edelman in the NFL that is believed to have tested positive for an unknown PED). 

Frankly, I don't care that he has likely used PEDs, because most of his peers are also likely using.  But in comparing across eras it is another factor that is not uniform, and PED usage has likely led to his extended career and fitness (no injuries).

So, based on nothing but the most speculative of speculation (rich people can get stuff + LeBron is rich = he's on PEDs!), you're arguing that LeBron is a cheater and that should be held against him when weighing his status as an all-time great.
But also, you totally don't care.
Got it.

Also, Jordan was a man of little means who wasn't playing in the late 90s when PEDs were rampant in sports. And he totally didn't bulk up in his latter years as a Bull. And he certainly doesn't come off as the kind of guy who would do anything to win.

I mean, I'm 100 percent in the MJ camp on the inane Jordan vs LeBron debate, but the lengths at which some of you are going to degrade LBJ's accomplishments are utterly asinine.

[forgetful]

So, based on nothing but the most speculative of speculation (rich people can get stuff + LeBron is rich = he's on PEDs!), you're arguing that LeBron is a cheater and that should be held against him when weighing his status as an all-time great.
But also, you totally don't care.
Got it.

Also, Jordan was a man of little means who wasn't playing in the late 90s when PEDs were rampant in sports. And he totally didn't bulk up in his latter years as a Bull. And he certainly doesn't come off as the kind of guy who would do anything to win.

I mean, I'm 100 percent in the MJ camp on the inane Jordan vs LeBron debate, but the lengths at which some of you are going to degrade LBJ's accomplishments are utterly asinine.

For the record.  My stance is that comparing players across eras is a fruitless exercise.  Too much changes to say anything by statistic measures, and things like championships depend too much on team makeup etc. 

Others still want to compare every detail, e.g. who had better coaches, who made their teammates better.  If you're going to look at all that, you have to consider PEDs.  Armstrong also had nothing but speculation for years, but it was obvious he was using...just using technology that couldn't be tested.

Lebron, to anyone that knows a bit about science/human physiology, is clearly using.  His body makeup before HGH was tested for was at 275 lbs and ~8% body fat, that is physiologically impossible without PEDs.  He promptly dropped 20 lbs of muscle that offseason, when they started HGH testing.  This is documented.  Incidentally, that brings him directly into the range considered "elite physical fitness" that is regarded as naturally attainable. 

He also demonstrates the hallmarks of use, bone growth in the face and skull at a late age, unusual tumor growth (Jaw tumor), and many other factors. Frankly, you have to stick your head in the sand to think he hasn't used the majority of his career.

As Tower said perfectly.  Jordan, best of his era.  Lebron, best of his era. That is the TLDR...below is what I think about PEDs more specifically.

Regarding PEDs though and all time greats (from my viewpoint), I don't disillusion myself into thinking that NBA athletes (or any other sport) are following the rules.  The majority are most likely on PEDs, just strategically dosed, or using forms not testable.  So in each era, they are all at a comparable level of competitiveness.  It only becomes relevant if you try to compare across eras.

I think Lance Armstrong was the one of the greatest athletes of all time.  Why?...didn't he cheat?  Yeah, but so was everyone else, which leveled the playing field.  On that field, he was the greatest of all time.

Regarding Jordan, some say his first retirement was a "secret suspension" for PED use (others say it was for gambling)...even that case makes a great point if true.  The NBA will protect the stars (breadwinners) even when caught, and also that we shouldn't disillusion ourselves on the "personal merits" of any athlete/star, they are great competitors, that would do anything to win...that is how they got there and we shouldn't be surprised that they are not necessarily holier than thou.

[MU82]

Incredible the lengths that the LeBron-haters will take. Almost funny.

As for his relationship with Spoe ... like many at the time, he thought Spoe was a lightweight at first, just a placeholder between Riley and whichever coach Riley would bring in next (many thought it would be a rejuvenated Riley himself).

Over time, though, LeBron came to respect Spoe's coaching, and Riley has gone on record numerous times saying LeBron never tried to have Spoe fired. Riley repeated that many times after LeBron had left to go back to Cleveland, so it's not as if Riley - who doesn't mince words anyway - was saying it to curry LeBron's favor.

Spoe is a fine coach, clearly the best of LeBron's career. Mike Brown wasn't bad, either, IMHO.

As another poster said ... if LeBron really cares about that, he can to go San Antonio. Or Boston, for that matter, because Stevens is a heck of a coach.

[forgetful]

Incredible the lengths that the LeBron-haters will take. Almost funny.

This seems to be the argument against anything that has information that is remotely negative regarding Lebron.

The funny thing is the "haters" are defined as people that think Lebron is the 2nd best ever.

If you don't think that NBA stars are using PEDs, you have your head in the sand.  Does it matter to me?  No.  Does it matter to many who argue that Lebron is the greatest ever, yes...which then raises the question regarding PEDs.

Do you honestly think Lebron, and Carmelo, and others have never used PEDs?

[Its DJOver]

This seems to be the argument against anything that has information that is remotely negative regarding Lebron.

The funny thing is the "haters" are defined as people that think Lebron is the 2nd best ever.

If you don't think that NBA stars are using PEDs, you have your head in the sand.  Does it matter to me?  No.  Does it matter to many who argue that Lebron is the greatest ever, yes...which then raises the question regarding PEDs.

Do you honestly think Lebron, and Carmelo, and others have never used PEDs?

Information and speculation are two very different things.  Show me a positive drug test, or are people now guilty until proven innocent in this country?

[Pakuni]

Lebron, to anyone that knows a bit about science/human physiology, is clearly using.  His body makeup before HGH was tested for was at 275 lbs and ~8% body fat, that is physiologically impossible without PEDs.  He promptly dropped 20 lbs of muscle that offseason, when they started HGH testing.  This is documented.  Incidentally, that brings him directly into the range considered "elite physical fitness" that is regarded as naturally attainable. 

I have no idea whether LeBron or Jordan for that matter has used PEDs.
But since you quite obviously know for FACT, I'm sure you have tons of scientific evidence supporting some of your claims here.
I'll hang out for a while and wait for it.

[forgetful]

I have no idea whether LeBron or Jordan for that matter has used PEDs.
But since you quite obviously know for FACT, I'm sure you have tons of scientific evidence supporting some of your claims here.
I'll hang out for a while and wait for it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7496846


Numerous scientific studies on the biological limits of fitness.  Lebron pre-HGH testing falls into the PED camp, by dropping 20 lbs of muscle in that offseason, he dropped into the non-user camp. 

There are a lot of data points.  Unusual jaw tumor, bone growth in the skull at a late age, his ffmi etc.  Even reported connections to Bosch (more circumstantial) is data. 

Each is a piece of data, each has its limitations, as does the NBA drug testing regime (the weakest and easiest to beat).  Each on their own could have different causes/explanations, but the combination makes the most likely explanation PED use. 

If you want definitive, its not going to happen, there are very very few things in the world that can be determined definitively, and PED use or non-use is not one of them.

Information and speculation are two very different things.  Show me a positive drug test, or are people now guilty until proven innocent in this country?

I think too often people do not understand the difference between information/data/conclusions and speculation.  The above in response to Pakuni are all data points/information.  Not speculation.  From data one can come to a conclusion to identify the most likely explanation consistent with all data. 

Speculation is on what the consequences of those conclusions are, e.g. Lebron's PED use made him the player he is.  The latter is frowned upon, since there is no data to suggest any of it.  But the conclusion that he most likely used PEDs is indeed valid and consistent with data/information.

[Its DJOver]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7496846


Numerous scientific studies on the biological limits of fitness.  Lebron pre-HGH testing falls into the PED camp, by dropping 20 lbs of muscle in that offseason, he dropped into the non-user camp. 

There are a lot of data points.  Unusual jaw tumor, bone growth in the skull at a late age, his ffmi etc.  Even reported connections to Bosch (more circumstantial) is data. 

Each is a piece of data, each has its limitations, as does the NBA drug testing regime (the weakest and easiest to beat).  Each on their own could have different causes/explanations, but the combination makes the most likely explanation PED use. 

If you want definitive, its not going to happen, there are very very few things in the world that can be determined definitively, and PED use or non-use is not one of them.

I think too often people do not understand the difference between information/data/conclusions and speculation.  The above in response to Pakuni are all data points/information.  Not speculation.  From data one can come to a conclusion to identify the most likely explanation consistent with all data. 

Speculation is on what the consequences of those conclusions are, e.g. Lebron's PED use made him the player he is.  The latter is frowned upon, since there is no data to suggest any of it.  But the conclusion that he most likely used PEDs is indeed valid and consistent with data/information.

No proof, got it.  Until you get a positive test or confession from Lebron, none of this means anything.

[GGGG]

Information and speculation are two very different things.  Show me a positive drug test, or are people now guilty until proven innocent in this country?

It's a message board.  Not a court of law.

[Its DJOver]

It's a message board.  Not a court of law.

That makes it okay to accuse someone of cheating with any evidence?

[GGGG]

That makes it okay to accuse someone of cheating with any evidence?

It makes it OK to say someone "most likely" cheated using circumstantial evidence.

[Its DJOver]

It makes it OK to say someone "most likely" cheated using circumstantial evidence.

If he had done that it'd be fine.

Lebron, to anyone that knows a bit about science/human physiology, is clearly using.   

I have no problem with saying that because Lebron plays in the era of PED's, there is a chance that he may have used them.  That does not mean that he is "clearly using".