Fire Wojo !

[skianth16]

I like Holtmann, but I agree with this. We haven't seen what he can do with his own guys and if he can sustain. I suspect he can and will, but he hasn't been anywhere long enough to prove that just yet.

Not to pick on you Brew, but this response is representative of the 5 year plan crew to a T. When another head coach succeeds, there are always these caveats that knock them down a little and points made about flaws. However, when talking about Wojo, the way his performance is reviewed and critiqued is far, far different. I think fair points have been made about coaches like Holtmann, Smart, Buzz, McDermott, Cooley, and others, but the lens with which those coaches are critiqued is vastly different than the lens Wojo is viewed through.

There are a lot of people on this board who know basketball inside and out, can talk strategy, advanced stats, player development, etc very well, but when it comes to Wojo there seems to be a disconnect from the reality that forms other opinions. Reading through threads about where Wojo stacks up compared to other Big East coaches or how our team compares to others, there is a ton of great analysis and points made about areas where others fall short. But when some of these same fans review our season or our coach, the analysis and objectivity are all but gone. Of course as fans, we're going to be less objective when it comes to MU, but too often the response to an objective comment about our team is met with defensive responses because there is some need felt to defend Wojo from criticism.

I think the kool-aid has weakened a little this year, but it's still pretty strong for some.

Jes - this falls squarely in my 3%-5%

[rocky_warrior]

Hello Mike Deane's Dark Glasses

Close... but try "Al Davis"

[MomofMUltiples]

Skianth,

In my work I believe that only the thorniest problems should ever reach my desk, and when they do and they are not an emergency they should have already been well-vetted by my staff and others and at least have process recommendations attached to them.  Too many people want to identify problems and wait for others to solve them.  As MU82 has been preaching all season with respect to Wojo, if you say he has to be successful and he's not, then what will you do?  If you say he needs to be fired and he isn't, what will you do?

Frankly, most programs not named Duke, Kansas, or Kentucky are going to see down years and inconsistent year over year results.  Are you a fan because of your deep attachment to the University, or are you a fan because we win?  If it is the latter, you may want to shift your allegiance to one of those three programs.  We aren't winning enough for you now, I understand.  Sometimes getting rid of alleged underperformers can solve problems.  Other times, it's simply time and patience that brings results.

Thank goodness for Anonymous Eagle, who perfectly summed up my feelings on this - my team has a chance to play more games and I am excited to watch them play.  I am excited for the promise of next season.  And I accept the decisions of Pres. Lovell and AD Scholl, as their expertise and judgement in this area are far superior to mine.  I just want to see the kids compete.

[jesmu84]

Not to pick on you Brew, but this response is representative of the 5 year plan crew to a T. When another head coach succeeds, there are always these caveats that knock them down a little and points made about flaws. However, when talking about Wojo, the way his performance is reviewed and critiqued is far, far different. I think fair points have been made about coaches like Holtmann, Smart, Buzz, McDermott, Cooley, and others, but the lens with which those coaches are critiqued is vastly different than the lens Wojo is viewed through.

There are a lot of people on this board who know basketball inside and out, can talk strategy, advanced stats, player development, etc very well, but when it comes to Wojo there seems to be a disconnect from the reality that forms other opinions. Reading through threads about where Wojo stacks up compared to other Big East coaches or how our team compares to others, there is a ton of great analysis and points made about areas where others fall short. But when some of these same fans review our season or our coach, the analysis and objectivity are all but gone. Of course as fans, we're going to be less objective when it comes to MU, but too often the response to an objective comment about our team is met with defensive responses because there is some need felt to defend Wojo from criticism.

I think the kool-aid has weakened a little this year, but it's still pretty strong for some.

Jes - this falls squarely in my 3%-5%

Ha!

Interestingly, I have no problems with anything you said here.

[Galway Eagle]

Minus the whole sexual assault thing, that was proven to have no merit according to the MPD, the only other thing I've heard is a bar fight.

Just because MPD didn't file charges does NOT mean it has no merit. It happened during the age of covering up sexual scandals at universities

[skianth16]

In my work I believe that only the thorniest problems should ever reach my desk, and when they do and they are not an emergency they should have already been well-vetted by my staff and others and at least have process recommendations attached to them.  Too many people want to identify problems and wait for others to solve them.  As MU82 has been preaching all season with respect to Wojo, if you say he has to be successful and he's not, then what will you do?  If you say he needs to be fired and he isn't, what will you do?

Like all fans, I have no control over who coaches the team I root for. Whether I buy tickets next year or not doesn't matter to the university. If I stop donating, they won't notice. My actions next year, like most fans, don't mean anything to the university. I will be a fan of Marquette basketball no matter who coaches the team and no matter who eventually plays for the team. That doesn't mean that the coach in place in any given year is a good coach or the right choice.

I don't think fans are in any place to make ultimatums to the university over who coaches a team. That's dumb. it's also something that very few people here have done. I don't think that fans need to like a guy just because he's the coach of the team you like, though. I don't think Wojo being the coach of the team we root for makes him above criticism either. I want him to be successful because that makes Marquette successful, but I don't think just being a fan of Marquette means that I should simply ignore and accept his current shortcomings.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Skianth,  I disagree with your general premise. I see what you are saying but I think you misunderstand a lot of the "wojo backers." I don't know that you would find a single one who will say "Wojo is a stud he will get it done." I can't speak for others but all I have every tried to preach is patience. I give examples of why it could work out. I give examples of why it couldn't. Honestly,  I give more of the former because there are plenty who are convinced Wojo is a dud and few who think he's a stud. If it was the opposite,  I would be doing the reverse.

I'm not sure the divide is between pro and anti wojo but more in our view on sports. I think there are those who switch back and forth between optimistic and pessimistic with every win and loss. They feel the highest highs and the lowest lows. Other fans are more reserved and cautious with their approach. Neither is better,  just different styles

Even though I don't see eye to eye with Guru often,  my guess is that there is no better fan then him when we win. I can only imagine unbridled joy. Goose I respect the hell out of even though we see the rebuild very differently. He is rightly not overly impressed with individual victories and is always looking at the program as a whole.

[Lennys Tap]

  Keeping Buzz happy, however, would have entailed allowing him to continue recruit kids like Mayo (stole stuff from his own teammates iirc).

Actually that was Patrick Hazel, a Tom Crean recruit.

[Goose]

TAMU

You are correct. I am much more concerned with a solid foundation long term over individual wins. My biggest concern remains, how solid is the foundation and the ability to compete on national stage. Beating SH in Jan means little to me if it is a blip on the screen.

As you know, I am all in giving Wojo another year. If he proves foundation is there, hope he is here a long time. If not, I wish him good luck in the future. I have said many times, I do not care who the coach is as long they win on national stage.

[Herman Cain]

I always thought that Holtmann was a great coach, and if Nova weren't a perennial 1 or 2 seed that Holtmann could have gotten coach of the year multiple times when it was fairly given to Wright.  While I want MU to do better than BU, I really think that Jordan is the biggest question mark in the conference.  He's a Butler guy, but two of the last three Butler guys were far above average coaches, and despite the beatdown they gave us in MKE, I haven't seen a ton that Jordan will be able to sustain the success that Holtmann had.

Holtmann= Great coach, would love it if Wojo can become as good as him, just get the feeling that BU may be seen as a stepping stone job the same way some view MU.

Lavall's team is in the tournament. Lavall has Jordan Tucker a very strong shooter transferring in from Duke next year. Lavall was a proven recruiter at Michigan and will likely continue to do well.

[D'Lo Brown]

Any concerns over Wojo's feelings now that he knows this is a 16 page thread?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Actually that was Patrick Hazel, a Tom Crean recruit.

Todd stole from his teammates.  Patrick stole from fellow a student's ATM account.

[Its DJOver]

Lavall's team is in the tournament. Lavall has Jordan Tucker a very strong shooter transferring in from Duke next year. Lavall was a proven recruiter at Michigan and will likely continue to do well.

He also had all of holtmamns players this year and only won 4 conference games before the conference tourney his one year being a head coach before butler. I hope he does well, but he was not proven it to me yet.  Of coarse neither has wojo.

[Floorslapper]

I wasn’t making a “it could be worse” argument. I was asking an honest question: since everyone seems to want to compare Wojo to Buzz and Buzz as a replacement isn’t an option. Who do you think is an option, and how would Marquette go about attracting him/her?  Given that you (and many fans, including myself) consider Marquette a top program, could we attract a successful head coach from a high major or low major D1 program?  Another high-major assistant? A successful D-2 coach?

As an executive, I have very little patience for people who bring me complaints without recommendations on how to resolve them.  If Wojo is not the answer, who, realistically, is?

So as an “executive” you stick with an at best marginal performer in your most visible business unit because you fear you might not be able to find better than mediocre? 

Do you believe in your company/your business/your team?  If you do, you expect you can recruit/land better than mediocre.

Fear based leadership isn’t exactly, leadership.

Stan Johnson would at minimum be a lateral hire. Legitimately he couldn’t do worse than Wojo has done, and he is our ace recruiter.

[MUBurrow]

To the extent there's a divide, I definitely fall into the "wojo backer" category. Anything better than 7 conference wins and I would want to see him get at least another year. If there is a significant injury, the 7 wins isn't even close to a firm number.

My patience is born of wanting to see a successful coach here for a long time. With the number of head coaching jobs that are more desirable than Marquette on paper, and the turnover of head coaches, we need intangibles to make that happen. Patience and willingness to grow with a coach can be a heck of an intangible.  Sure we can get trigger happy and try to back the money truck up to the hot mid major coach every 4 years, but easy come, easy go. Even if that coach hits enough early success to make us happy, that coach will also never stick around at MU for more than a couple solid tournament runs. But you weather some early down years with a young coach, you really give him and his family time to settle in and call Milwaukee home, now you might be getting somewhere.

And Floorslapper, et al can drop "Fear based leadership" ( ) on this all he wants, but being deranged about where you stand vis-a-vis your competition is no better.  At the risk of allowing a conversation centered around the nonsensical business metaphor to continue, a lot of very successful smaller companies don't recruit at the very top schools, don't churn their employees for the highest marginal results and don't try to hold their job openings out to offer the same things as Fortune 100 companies, because they'll fail. Instead they recognize their competitive advantage and play to that, often prioritizing long term stability over short term profit.

[MomofMUltiples]

Ahh, Ners, as if you could intimidate me by “questioning” my position in the C-suite.  Unlike you, I know not to stick my nose into issues that I know little about. I trust the MU leadership to determine if/when a coach becomes a marginal performer, not someone who dunked once. Love to watch this team play and watch these boys grow. My happiness isn’t decided by an NCAA berth.

[real chili 83]

So as an “executive” you stick with an at best marginal performer in your most visible business unit because you fear you might not be able to find better than mediocre? 

Do you believe in your company/your business/your team?  If you do, you expect you can recruit/land better than mediocre.

Fear based leadership isn’t exactly, leadership.

Stan Johnson would at minimum be a lateral hire. Legitimately he couldn’t do worse than Wojo has done, and he is our ace recruiter.

Ners, how did you come to this conclusion?  She said nothing of this sort.

[GGGG]

Ahh, Ners, as if you could intimidate me by “questioning” my position in the C-suite.  Unlike you, I know not to stick my nose into issues that I know little about. I trust the MU leadership to determine if/when a coach becomes a marginal performer, not someone who dunked once. Love to watch this team play and watch these boys grow. My happiness isn’t decided by an NCAA berth.

Just don’t DARE start question the philosophy behind the fro-yo flavor of the day selection.

That’s a bridge too far!!!!

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Actually that was Patrick Hazel, a Tom Crean recruit.

Oh, my bad.  I thought Mayo got nailed with that as well.

[real chili 83]

Mayo was a pig with women too.

[GGGG]

Mayo was a pig with women too.

He squealed? 

[Floorslapper]

Ners, how did you come to this conclusion?  She said nothing of this sort.

I interpreted Mom's repeated posts mentioning her concern over staying the course because of, essentially, the following logic:  If not Wojo, then who?

Ahh, Ners, as if you could intimidate me by “questioning” my position in the C-suite.  Unlike you, I know not to stick my nose into issues that I know little about. I trust the MU leadership to determine if/when a coach becomes a marginal performer, not someone who dunked once. Love to watch this team play and watch these boys grow. My happiness isn’t decided by an NCAA berth.

Then why are you posting in this thread?  Your C-level leadership style, you asked that someone bring you a solution - instead of complaining.

I gave you Stan Johnson as just one potential solution.  There's Tom Crean.  Thad Matta.  A guy like Kermit Davis at MTSU.  Chris Beard got hired away from Arkansas Little Rock to Texas Tech. Brian Wardle is doing a really good job rebuilding Bradley. Countless examples. 

Do you believe we have the facilities, budget, and commitment to basketball that are reflective of a Top 25 program?  If so, why would you think we couldn't attract a solid coach with a track record of success at a mid-major, or out of work high major coach like Crean or Matta?

Look, I enjoy watching this team play too.  It is a fun brand of basketball.  Unfortunately, we should be in the NCAA with the elite talent we have on this team, not the NIT - and that is on the coach.

You realize that there are only 5 Power 5 teams in college basketball to be in the Top 20 in 3pt shooting percentage AND attempts?  You know the 5?

Nova
Kansas
Purdue
MSU
Marquette 

One is not like the other.  Coaching matters.

[warriorchick]

So as an “executive” you stick with an at best marginal performer in your most visible business unit because you fear you might not be able to find better than mediocre? 

Do you believe in your company/your business/your team?  If you do, you expect you can recruit/land better than mediocre.

Fear based leadership isn’t exactly, leadership.

Stan Johnson would at minimum be a lateral hire. Legitimately he couldn’t do worse than Wojo has done, and he is our ace recruiter.

[GGGG]

I interpreted Mom's repeated posts mentioning her concern over staying the course because of, essentially, the following logic:  If not Wojo, then who?

Then why are you posting in this thread?  Your C-level leadership style, you asked that someone bring you a solution - instead of complaining.

I gave you Stan Johnson as just one potential solution.  There's Tom Crean.  Thad Matta.  A guy like Kermit Davis at MTSU.  Chris Beard got hired away from Arkansas Little Rock to Texas Tech. Brian Wardle is doing a really good job rebuilding Bradley. Countless examples. 

Do you believe we have the facilities, budget, and commitment to basketball that are reflective of a Top 25 program?  If so, why would you think we couldn't attract a solid coach with a track record of success at a mid-major, or out of work high major coach like Crean or Matta?

Look, I enjoy watching this team play too.  It is a fun brand of basketball.  Unfortunately, we should be in the NCAA with the elite talent we have on this team, not the NIT - and that is on the coach.

You realize that there are only 5 Power 5 teams in college basketball to be in the Top 20 in 3pt shooting percentage AND attempts?  You know the 5?

Nova
Kansas
Purdue
MSU
Marquette 

One is not like the other.  Coaching matters.

Lol. So this is your new obscure stat that you learned about just yesterday but will still use to suit your argument huh?

[Floorslapper]

Lol. So this is your new obscure stat that you learned about just yesterday but will still use to suit your argument huh?

Obscure stat?  I'd say it is pretty telling, when the NCAA seed of the four other teams to accomplish the feat are a 1,1,2, and 3.