Fire Wojo !

[GGGG]

jesmu

I read TAMU's book report and was not overly impressed. Basically he cited examples to match the five year plan he preaches. Without doing any digging, I would say the Ohio State guy did a pretty good job this year. He did not inherit a great deal of talent and I think was hired in the summer, which gave him no time to recruit.

His starting line up consisted of a three year starting senior, a two year starting senior, a two year starting redshirt junior, a sophomore who played quite a bit as a freshman and one of the top freshmen from Ohio.

Not to take anything away from Holtmann, who is obviously a good coach, but he had a great deal of experience coming back in a conference that clearly had a down year.

Instead of sitting back and making a bunch of snarky, passive aggressive comments, maybe you should do your homework.

[Goose]

sultan

For the five year plan group there is zero chance of citing an example that works with them. The Ohio State sucked two years and the coach was canned due to declining talent. New guy did pretty well with group.

As for snarky, not my intent. I was not impressed with TAMU's post and thought it was very one sided. That is my opinion, not trying to be snarky. I think TAMU is the best of the young posters, by a VERY wide margin.

[Floorslapper]

sultan

For the five year plan group there is zero chance of citing an example that works with them. The Ohio State sucked two years and the coach was canned due to declining talent. New guy did pretty well with group.

As for snarky, not my intent. I was not impressed with TAMU's post and thought it was very one sided. That is my opinion, not trying to be snarky. I think TAMU is the best of the young posters, by a VERY wide margin.

Goose - Pay Sultan no mind.  Sultan has no business calling out others for being snarky and passive aggressive. It's his standard operating procedure here.  Once a blue moon he'll actually make a relevant and astute post/observation.  But.  It is rare.

Holtmann is obviously a stud coach.  Clearly hasn't needed the excuses at Butler, and now OSU, that our most graceful fans extend to Wojo still now 4 years in.  When you can coach, you can coach.

[Its DJOver]

I always thought that Holtmann was a great coach, and if Nova weren't a perennial 1 or 2 seed that Holtmann could have gotten coach of the year multiple times when it was fairly given to Wright.  While I want MU to do better than BU, I really think that Jordan is the biggest question mark in the conference.  He's a Butler guy, but two of the last three Butler guys were far above average coaches, and despite the beatdown they gave us in MKE, I haven't seen a ton that Jordan will be able to sustain the success that Holtmann had.

Holtmann= Great coach, would love it if Wojo can become as good as him, just get the feeling that BU may be seen as a stepping stone job the same way some view MU.

[GGGG]

sultan

For the five year plan group there is zero chance of citing an example that works with them. The Ohio State sucked two years and the coach was canned due to declining talent. New guy did pretty well with group.

As for snarky, not my intent. I was not impressed with TAMU's post and thought it was very one sided. That is my opinion, not trying to be snarky. I think TAMU is the best of the young posters, by a VERY wide margin.

Ok sorry for my response. 

I just think Holtmann walked into a very good situation. An experienced team in a conference that was down. Especially for a coach who also has had plenty of experience as a head coach.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Reads like a strong case for why we shouldn’t have messed with Buzz’s happiness

No one got tired of Buzz winning.  Keeping Buzz happy, however, would have entailed allowing him to continue recruit kids like Mayo (stole stuff from his own teammates iirc) and other continued brushes with the law.  VT is a better fit for that.

[NickelDimer]

No one got tired of Buzz winning.  Keeping Buzz happy, however, would have entailed allowing him to continue recruit kids like Mayo (stole stuff from his own teammates iirc) and other continued brushes with the law.  VT is a better fit for that.

I think is notion is overblown. How many players “like Mayo” did Buzz sign at MU? Buzz may not have been squeaky clean but he also didn’t run a dirty program

[#UnleashSean]

No one got tired of Buzz winning.  Keeping Buzz happy, however, would have entailed allowing him to continue recruit kids like Mayo (stole stuff from his own teammates iirc) and other continued brushes with the law.  VT is a better fit for that.

Minus the whole sexual assault thing, that was proven to have no merit according to the MPD, the only other thing I've heard is a bar fight.

[MomofMUltiples]

Be honest with yourselves, people.  Buzz is long gone and is never coming back.  So as much as you like to reminisce about the old days, who's the REAL alternative were the University to fire Wojo?  And how fast will said alternative meet your "expectations?"

[Hubert Davis]

Wojo is not the answer. 4 years in and he has still yet to win a game in the NCAA tournament and we're sitting here in year 4 in the NIT and talking about "next year". Chalk him up as a "miss". Marquette deserves better. They're spending big $ on a low return. That's called a LOSER.

There are better coaches out there. Time to cut our losses.

FIRE WOJO!!!!!!!

[SERocks]

Be honest with yourselves, people.  Buzz is long gone and is never coming back.  So as much as you like to reminisce about the old days, who's the REAL alternative were the University to fire Wojo?  And how fast will said alternative meet your "expectations?"

This is a true statement.  Not a Wojo fan, but would like to have the same coach for a number of years and give him the chance to develop a program.  Wojo isn't terrible.  Just isn't really great either.  Or flashy or anything.  Just what the administration wanted.  Now as much as I hate to say it, I think we need to give him another five years or so to see if he can be a lifetime type of guy.  He has the lineage to fulfill such a role.  And loyalty would go both ways I suspect, he would recognize the administration giving him a leash and might stick around once he gets it all.  Well, here's to hoping anyway.

[skianth16]

Be honest with yourselves, people.  Buzz is long gone and is never coming back.  So as much as you like to reminisce about the old days, who's the REAL alternative were the University to fire Wojo?  And how fast will said alternative meet your "expectations?"

The frustration about Wojo is that the above shouldn't have to be considered a selling point for a coach at Marquette. This is what some might call putting lipstick on a pig. Just because there isn't a long list of coaches openly looking for new jobs doesn't make Wojo a better coach. As fans of a program that had a ncie stretch of playing winning basketball prior to Wojo's arrival, it's disappointing to have to resort to the old "it could be worse" kind of reasoning when talking about the state of the program.

He deserves the coming year; there's no doubt about that. But if he doesn't show some marked improvement with a deep roster in a league that will be taking a step back, there will be legitimate cause for concern by the powers that be.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

jesmu

I read TAMU's book report and was not overly impressed. Basically he cited examples to match the five year plan he preaches. Without doing any digging, I would say the Ohio State guy did a pretty good job this year. He did not inherit a great deal of talent and I think was hired in the summer, which gave him no time to recruit.

https://painttouches.com/2018/02/19/a-brief-history-of-the-modern-college-basketball-rebuild/

I didn't make an argument one way or the other. I literally just listed all coaching rebuilds in the one and one era and what the results were. At the end I made three comparisons, one positive (Tony Bennett) and two negative (Herb Sendek and Anthony Grant). I didn't cite any specific examples, I cited all the examples.

As for Ohio State, they weren't included because they haven't had their first tournament streak yet. But as for your claim that "he didn't inherit a ton of talent":

4/5 of his starters were on last year's squad getting at least 19 mpg....his 5th starter was a freshman that he didn't recruit but had already signed his LOI and attended class at OSU so he couldn't transfer without penalty...plus his brother is on the team. He also took the highest rated player from his recruiting class at Butler with him to OSU.

All that being said, he did a bang up job this year and did better than I or any other pundit expected to. I just don't believe comparing the situation Holtmann walked into and the situation Wojo walked into is fair....though what he did at Butler was fantastic.

[dgies9156]

Wojo is not the answer. 4 years in and he has still yet to win a game in the NCAA tournament and we're sitting here in year 4 in the NIT and talking about "next year". Chalk him up as a "miss". Marquette deserves better. They're spending big $ on a low return. That's called a LOSER.

There are better coaches out there. Time to cut our losses.

FIRE WOJO!!!!!!!

No.

Not yet. We need improvement, yes. But fire.... I want at least one more year to see what's in the tank.

The biggest problem any coach has is teaching defense. Dean Smith, in his autobiography, "A Coaches Life" talked about it and the one player he had that figured it out almost immediately -- Michael Jordan. That's why Al didn't like to start most freshmen and why his seniors were his stars.

Look at the year-over-year improvement in Matt Heldt. I'll agree, he is still work in progress, but he improved. With another year and some work with Marcus, Greg and even Sacar, I hope we will get better.

You win with defense in the NCAA (just ask Virginia). If we work on our defense and defensive tactics, next year should be different. If not, his seat WILL be warm. It has to be. Money is involved.

[skianth16]

You win with defense in the NCAA (just ask Virginia). If we work on our defense and defensive tactics, next year should be different. If not, his seat WILL be warm. It has to be. Money is involved.

Didn't Wojo say after last season that defense was going to be a priority over the summer?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I was having a thought about this topic. My assumption is that because we theoretically only lose Heldt at the end of next season, we would be even better the following season and that would help keep Wojo's job. But another way to think about it is, Howard and Hauser are unlikely to transfer as seniors (and by extension Joey is unlikely to transfer), so would it be strategic to fire Wojo in a year that would be less likely to result in mass transfers so the next coach can walk into a better situation? My guess is that Buzz benefited long term from having the 3 amigos his first year.

Now to be clear, I'm not advocating Wojo be fired. But if next season is another outside the tournament then maybe it would be wise.

[MomofMUltiples]

The frustration about Wojo is that the above shouldn't have to be considered a selling point for a coach at Marquette. This is what some might call putting lipstick on a pig. Just because there isn't a long list of coaches openly looking for new jobs doesn't make Wojo a better coach. As fans of a program that had a ncie stretch of playing winning basketball prior to Wojo's arrival, it's disappointing to have to resort to the old "it could be worse" kind of reasoning when talking about the state of the program.

He deserves the coming year; there's no doubt about that. But if he doesn't show some marked improvement with a deep roster in a league that will be taking a step back, there will be legitimate cause for concern by the powers that be.

I wasn’t making a “it could be worse” argument. I was asking an honest question: since everyone seems to want to compare Wojo to Buzz and Buzz as a replacement isn’t an option. Who do you think is an option, and how would Marquette go about attracting him/her?  Given that you (and many fans, including myself) consider Marquette a top program, could we attract a successful head coach from a high major or low major D1 program?  Another high-major assistant? A successful D-2 coach?

As an executive, I have very little patience for people who bring me complaints without recommendations on how to resolve them.  If Wojo is not the answer, who, realistically, is?

[skianth16]

I was having a thought about this topic. My assumption is that because we theoretically only lose Heldt at the end of next season, we would be even better the following season and that would help keep Wojo's job. But another way to think about it is, Howard and Hauser are unlikely to transfer as seniors (and by extension Joey is unlikely to transfer), so would it be strategic to fire Wojo in a year that would be less likely to result in mass transfers so the next coach can walk into a better situation? My guess is that Buzz benefited long term from having the 3 amigos his first year.

Now to be clear, I'm not advocating Wojo be fired. But if next season is another outside the tournament then maybe it would be wise.

I'm sure there are numbers out there, but when coaches leave, I'm pretty sure the majority of the players stay. Coaches are going to schools with rosters that are mostly complete, so they can't just take 8 guys with them. Plus, once guys get to campus, they settle into a life there, and that has to be a selling point as well, assuming they are enjoying life on campus. Plus, when a good new coach comes in, don't you think they have a sales pitch ready for the team? They know they have to convince certain guys to stay, and I'm sure they come in prepared to do what they can to retain talent.

If Wojo got canned today and was replaced by an outsider, I bet we'd keep the majority of the roster. I'm not advocating for that, but I don't think his departure would lead to the loss of a significant portion of the team.

[Litehouse]

I wasn’t making a “it could be worse” argument. I was asking an honest question: since everyone seems to want to compare Wojo to Buzz and Buzz as a replacement isn’t an option. Who do you think is an option, and how would Marquette go about attracting him/her?  Given that you (and many fans, including myself) consider Marquette a top program, could we attract a successful head coach from a high major or low major D1 program?  Another high-major assistant? A successful D-2 coach?

As an executive, I have very little patience for people who bring me complaints without recommendations on how to resolve them.  If Wojo is not the answer, who, realistically, is?

I'm cool with Wojo.  However, if they decided to fire him today, one potential replacement candidate might be TJ Otzelberger from South Dakota St.  Milwaukee native that has the Jackrabbits in the NCAAs for the 2nd straight year.

[skianth16]

I wasn’t making a “it could be worse” argument. I was asking an honest question: since everyone seems to want to compare Wojo to Buzz and Buzz as a replacement isn’t an option. Who do you think is an option, and how would Marquette go about attracting him/her?  Given that you (and many fans, including myself) consider Marquette a top program, could we attract a successful head coach from a high major or low major D1 program?  Another high-major assistant? A successful D-2 coach?

As an executive, I have very little patience for people who bring me complaints without recommendations on how to resolve them.  If Wojo is not the answer, who, realistically, is?

As an executive, do you prefer employees who accept problems simply because they couldn't solve them right away? The issue needs to be raised before it can be solved. Maybe it needs to be raised before it gets to your desk, but pointing out the problem is always the first step.

As fans, we aren't going to have the kind of list that the MU admins have, but it seems pretty reasonable that we would be able to call up a pretty significant number of coaches and pique their interest. Successful or promising mid-major coaches are prime targets for power 6 schools - Dan Hurley (URI), Earl Grant (CofC), Kermit Davis (MTSU), Eric Musselman (Nevada) all seem like reasonable options. Then there are power 6 coaches that might be looking for a change of scenery or even assistants, but fans are probably not likely to know those kind of guys. Do you think any Indiana fans were talking about snagging Tom Crean back in 2008?

[IrwinFletcher]

I think people here should be more realistic about our talent level. None of the players listed above would of started on this year's Villanova team.

Seeing only two of the above were starters on OUR team, you might be right.

[IrwinFletcher]

Ok sorry for my response. 

I just think Holtmann walked into a very good situation. An experienced team in a conference that was down. Especially for a coach who also has had plenty of experience as a head coach.

OSU beat Michigan MSU and Purdue.  Three really nice wins.  And that is it.  Non conference was awful as any big opponent they had they lost.  Holtman was also a former Head Coach, so has some experience as the top guy.  Can’t compare one year of a guy vs. 4 years.  Holtman may wind up being great, but I wouldn’t offer him a lifetime contract just yet.

[Goose]

Irwin

MU could have hired a HC and did not. That does not change the expectations to me.

[brewcity77]

OSU beat Michigan MSU and Purdue.  Three really nice wins.  And that is it.  Non conference was awful as any big opponent they had they lost.  Holtman was also a former Head Coach, so has some experience as the top guy.  Can’t compare one year of a guy vs. 4 years.  Holtman may wind up being great, but I wouldn’t offer him a lifetime contract just yet.

I like Holtmann, but I agree with this. We haven't seen what he can do with his own guys and if he can sustain. I suspect he can and will, but he hasn't been anywhere long enough to prove that just yet.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Wojo is not the answer. 4 years in and he has still yet to win a game in the NCAA tournament and we're sitting here in year 4 in the NIT and talking about "next year". Chalk him up as a "miss". Marquette deserves better. They're spending big $ on a low return. That's called a LOSER.

There are better coaches out there. Time to cut our losses.

FIRE WOJO!!!!!!!

Hello Mike Deane's Dark Glasses