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Author Topic: Recruiting as of 11/15/21  (Read 5847285 times)

bilsu

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30350 on: September 22, 2021, 12:17:24 AM »
Highest recruit ever at MU (Doc Rivers) signed with Hank after Al left. But the slide had begun. 5years to judge Jon Scheyer.
No coach after Raymonds has come close to his winning %. He was a failure only in comparison to Al.

I have been to both Duke and North Carolina. The campus's and location are way better than MU. Add in the rivalry of two schools only 9 miles apart you would have to be a miserable recruiter to not be successful attracting top talent. What recruit would not want to play in a Duke/UNC game twice a year?

JWags85

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30351 on: September 22, 2021, 09:44:28 AM »
Agree with every word of this.

Still, the assumption seems to be that Scheyer will fail spectacularly, which also is based on nothing.

I think its based on most coaches succeeding a legend usually fail, much less those with zero HC experience or who haven't been outside of one school.  But we shall see.  I don't think he'll fail "spectacularly", but I don't think he keeps Duke perennial top 10.

No coach after Raymonds has come close to his winning %. He was a failure only in comparison to Al.

Raymond's winning percentage his last 4 years was about 65%, which puts him right on par with Deane and Crean.  And neither Deane or Crean had a powerhouse program to inherit.

Hank was an amazing guy and a great right hand man.  But if Marquette hired Denny Crum or the like, they'd be in top 10 programs of all time discussion.

brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30352 on: September 22, 2021, 09:47:35 AM »
Agree with every word of this.

Still, the assumption seems to be that Scheyer will fail spectacularly, which also is based on nothing.


I wouldn't say it's based on nothing. It's based on the failure of Johnny Dawkins, Chris Collins, and Steve Wojciechowski, among others. Scheyer could be different, but K's assistants have generally been mediocre at the high major level, particularly when Duke is their only experience.

Maybe being at the same program will make it easier, but if Duke doesn't remain in the top-10 regularly and win 25+ every year and 30+ more often than not, he'll be viewed a failure. It's not a reach to predict failure when the bar for success has been set so absurdly high by his predecessor.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30353 on: September 22, 2021, 10:09:05 AM »

I wouldn't say it's based on nothing. It's based on the failure of Johnny Dawkins, Chris Collins, and Steve Wojciechowski, among others. Scheyer could be different, but K's assistants have generally been mediocre at the high major level, particularly when Duke is their only experience.

Maybe being at the same program will make it easier, but if Duke doesn't remain in the top-10 regularly and win 25+ every year and 30+ more often than not, he'll be viewed a failure. It's not a reach to predict failure when the bar for success has been set so absurdly high by his predecessor.

Lot easier to succeed with 5* players on campus.  I don’t think his recruiting chops have ever been in doubt.

Frankly, the last few iterations of Duke since 2015 sure looked like a team just rolling the ball out there and letting the talent figure it out.  That’s from afar, maybe it’s different in practices but watching them play, the offense was often sloppy.

Anyway, back to Marquette
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30354 on: September 22, 2021, 10:09:06 AM »
Even coaches who are arguably successful after replacing a legend find it tough.

Gene Bartow succeeded John Wooden, went 52-9, lead them to a Final Four his first year and was upset in the Sweet 16 his second, and he left to start up the UAB program.

Longtime Wooden assistant Gary Cunningham succeeded Bartow, went 50-8, leading them to an Elite 8 and Sweet 16, and left to become the athletic director at Western Oregon.
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bilsu

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30355 on: September 22, 2021, 11:30:08 AM »

I wouldn't say it's based on nothing. It's based on the failure of Johnny Dawkins, Chris Collins, and Steve Wojciechowski, among others. Scheyer could be different, but K's assistants have generally been mediocre at the high major level, particularly when Duke is their only experience.

Maybe being at the same program will make it easier, but if Duke doesn't remain in the top-10 regularly and win 25+ every year and 30+ more often than not, he'll be viewed a failure. It's not a reach to predict failure when the bar for success has been set so absurdly high by his predecessor.
All of these assistants were taught on how to win with elite talent. They do not know how to coach less talented players.

Jockey

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30356 on: September 22, 2021, 12:10:40 PM »



Hank was an amazing guy and a great right hand man.  But if Marquette hired Denny Crum or the like, they'd be in top 10 programs of all time discussion.

I got to know Hank pretty well after he retired. He was a dog racing aficionado and I was a track regular as well. A completely unpretentious, wonderful guy.

Nukem2

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30357 on: September 22, 2021, 12:22:18 PM »
I got to know Hank pretty well after he retired. He was a dog racing aficionado and I was a track regular as well. A completely unpretentious, wonderful guy.
Yep, he was a genuinely good person.  As a head coach, he needed to be edgier though in recruiting and on the court. 

MU82

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30358 on: September 22, 2021, 02:46:48 PM »

I wouldn't say it's based on nothing. It's based on the failure of Johnny Dawkins, Chris Collins, and Steve Wojciechowski, among others. Scheyer could be different, but K's assistants have generally been mediocre at the high major level, particularly when Duke is their only experience.

Maybe being at the same program will make it easier, but if Duke doesn't remain in the top-10 regularly and win 25+ every year and 30+ more often than not, he'll be viewed a failure. It's not a reach to predict failure when the bar for success has been set so absurdly high by his predecessor.

None of those you named got to coach Duke-level talent.

But it's a fair point you and others have made about him being viewed as a "failure" even if he does what might seem good at other schools because it won't be viewed as good enough at Duke.

FWIW, I am NOT predicting that Scheyer will be a great coach. He might. Or he might be merely good (which probably won't be seen as good enough). Or he might fail. Or he might fail spectacularly. I don't know how good or bad he'll be, or whether he'll make it at Duke or not.

I just got a kick out of what seemed to be the typical knee-jerk reaction.

3:00:00 p.m.: Duke Names Scheyer To Replace Coach K

3:00:05 p.m.: "Scheyer sucks! Duke just stopped being a blueblood!!"
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brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30359 on: September 22, 2021, 06:01:15 PM »
I suspect whomever follows K permanently will fail. Just like Doherty at UNC. Or Hank at Marquette. Following an all time great is tough business. If he's not stacking ACC titles, 1-seeds, and Final Fours by year three, his seat will be getting warm. Their fans were already complaining about K's recent results, and he averaged 28 wins per year since their last title (excluding last year's disaster).

The real problem for Scheyer is that living up to K likely won't be enough.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30360 on: September 22, 2021, 07:13:07 PM »
I suspect whomever follows K permanently will fail. Just like Doherty at UNC. Or Hank at Marquette. Following an all time great is tough business. If he's not stacking ACC titles, 1-seeds, and Final Fours by year three, his seat will be getting warm. Their fans were already complaining about K's recent results, and he averaged 28 wins per year since their last title (excluding last year's disaster).

The real problem for Scheyer is that living up to K likely won't be enough.

Doherty didn’t follow Smith. Bill Guthridge did.
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Nukem2

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30361 on: September 22, 2021, 08:33:58 PM »
Doherty didn’t follow Smith. Bill Guthridge did.
Gutheridge flamed out quickly though he did i’d have a couple solid years on Smith’s recruits.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30362 on: September 22, 2021, 08:44:26 PM »
Gutheridge flamed out quickly though he did i’d have a couple solid years on Smith’s recruits.

Gutheridge didn’t flame out at all.  Doherty did though.

JWags85

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30363 on: September 22, 2021, 09:05:13 PM »
Gutheridge didn’t flame out at all.  Doherty did though.

Ehh, its relative.  He took over a program that had been to 3 FFs in 5 years and a roster that had 4 NBA players including Carter and Jamison, plus Ed Cota who was All-ACC multiple times.  Made a FF then finished 3rd in the ACC and got upset in the first round.  His last season, again multiple stars, pre-season top 3 ranking...finished unranked, T-3 in the ACC, and was an 8 seed.  Talent took over and they got a hot run, but there was a sharp downward trajectory.  I think Guthridge realized he didn't have it and stepped aside for love of the program.

If that 99-00 team that was an 8 seed doesnt beat Mizzou or upset Stanford, I think it would be viewed as a flame out in comparison.  That Final Four wasn't really indicative of the direction of the program.  Doherty sucked, but by his second year he had a pretty empty cupboard of what Guthridge had left once Haywood graduated and Forte went pro

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30364 on: September 22, 2021, 09:12:15 PM »
Ehh, its relative.  He took over a program that had been to 3 FFs in 5 years and a roster that had 4 NBA players including Carter and Jamison, plus Ed Cota who was All-ACC multiple times.  Made a FF then finished 3rd in the ACC and got upset in the first round.  His last season, again multiple stars, pre-season top 3 ranking...finished unranked, T-3 in the ACC, and was an 8 seed.  Talent took over and they got a hot run, but there was a sharp downward trajectory.  I think Guthridge realized he didn't have it and stepped aside for love of the program.

If that 99-00 team that was an 8 seed doesnt beat Mizzou or upset Stanford, I think it would be viewed as a flame out in comparison.  That Final Four wasn't really indicative of the direction of the program.  Doherty sucked, but by his second year he had a pretty empty cupboard of what Guthridge had left once Haywood graduated and Forte went pro

3 years, 2 final fours…tourney each year.

You have to have a weird definition of “flame out” to come to that conclusion.

Now if you want to say he was never thought of as the long term solution..fine.  He wasnt ever thought of that way and was always just a caretaker as the final Smith team finished up. 

jfp61

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30365 on: September 22, 2021, 09:23:24 PM »
Chase Ross is announcing his commitment on Friday. Marquette and Georgia were his last two visits.


https://twitter.com/_SchuZ_/status/1440854786790748169?s=20

Newsdreams

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30366 on: September 22, 2021, 09:35:52 PM »
Chase Ross is announcing his commitment on Friday. Marquette and Georgia were his last two visits.


https://twitter.com/_SchuZ_/status/1440854786790748169?s=20
Crean been thinking about him a lot

JakeBarnes

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30367 on: September 22, 2021, 09:38:27 PM »
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30368 on: September 22, 2021, 09:42:10 PM »
Doherty didn’t follow Smith. Bill Guthridge did.

No, but even though it was a few years, Guthridge was always a caretaker. That's why I said permanently, because Doherty was the first hire after Dean meant to be long-term.
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rocky_warrior

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30369 on: September 22, 2021, 09:49:52 PM »
“Normal is an illusion. What's normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.”  -Morticia Addams

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30370 on: September 23, 2021, 05:19:38 AM »
No, but even though it was a few years, Guthridge was always a caretaker. That's why I said permanently, because Doherty was the first hire after Dean meant to be long-term.

I guess it’s how you define long term but I think you are looking at this with the benefit of history. Bill Guthridge retired earlier than he initially planned. He was only 62.

But he also struggled in that he couldn’t handle the pressure, which is why he retired. Despite objective success, he wasn’t considered as good as Dean Smith, which is unfair, but is exactly what happens when you replace a legend.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 05:42:42 AM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30371 on: September 23, 2021, 09:29:48 AM »
Crystal Ball is 100% Marquette with one pick in.  The Crystal Ball is NEVER wrong.

FutureCast is 100% Marquette with one pick in.  TheFutureCast is a Crystal Ball rip-off.
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JWags85

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30372 on: September 23, 2021, 09:31:41 AM »
3 years, 2 final fours…tourney each year.

You have to have a weird definition of “flame out” to come to that conclusion.

Now if you want to say he was never thought of as the long term solution..fine.  He wasnt ever thought of that way and was always just a caretaker as the final Smith team finished up.

Like I explained, it was a marked downward progression that a flukey FF run made look better than it actually was.  They needed OT to beat a bad GT team at home, late in the season, that prevented them from being .500 in conference and were 18-13 going into the NCAA tourney.  Like I said, without the very unlikely run to the FF (which it would have been for any 18-13 8 Seed not named Duke, UNC, Kansas or the like), it would have very much been flame out worthy.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30373 on: September 23, 2021, 09:33:29 AM »
As far as I know, Chase Ross decision will not have anything to do with Bill Guthridge or Matt Doherty. 
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Pakuni

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Re: Recruiting as of 9/15/21
« Reply #30374 on: September 23, 2021, 09:46:42 AM »
As far as I know, Chase Ross decision will not have anything to do with Bill Guthridge or Matt Doherty.

But he still may end up at future Big East opponent University of St. Thomas.

 

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