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Author Topic: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?  (Read 19465 times)

Dr. Blackheart

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Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« on: February 02, 2015, 04:46:47 PM »
Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve. He is second in Orating to Gardner but close in eFG% as Gardner was so great at drawing fouls. Leads in trey%, low on turnover%, very good on steal and block%s. Not too bad in defensive rebounding % considering his size and game.

If the Scoop Coaching Committee is handing out minutes, Sandy is earning the PT. Those are NBA freshmen base stats. (Btw, dropped Vander and Jerel as their Oratings were sub-90. Deonte would have made it at 101 but Sandy is way ahead).

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?23-wesley-matthews=2005-2006&add=davante-gardner&davante-gardner=2010-2011&dominic-james=2005-2006&i=1&lazar-hayward=2006-2007&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=steve-novak&p3=dominic-james&p4=23-wesley-matthews&p5=lazar-hayward&steve-novak=2002-2003




« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 04:48:43 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

tower912

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 04:51:45 PM »
None of the Amigos were better?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

GoldenZebra

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 04:52:37 PM »
None of the Amigos were better?

I thought Dominic had a pretty good freshman year...I cant remember though.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 04:53:49 PM »
None of the Amigos were better?

See attachment. Dom was a 106. Sandy a 114.

BrewCity83

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 04:55:48 PM »
He is second in Orating to Gardner

I didn't know Cohen was a good Orator.  Haven't even heard him speak much...
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flash

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 04:56:10 PM »
James, Matthews, McNeal were all WAY better than Sandy as freshman.  I'd also say Lazar and Vander were better.  Sandy is a nice player, but the previously mentioned players all had much bigger impacts as freshman than Sandy has made so far.  

Lazar's Headband

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 04:59:04 PM »
Duane Wilson is also better than Cohen.  Yeah, he's a redshirt frosh but he's still a frosh.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 05:04:39 PM »
Here are the stats for Vander, Jerel and Duane. Duane up there with Wes in terms of Orating, closing in on Dom, which makes two of the best frosh on the current team statistically. Jerel and Vander were not very efficient freshmen year at all.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=duane-wilson&i=1&jerel-mcneal=2005-2006&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=jerel-mcneal&p3=vander-blue&vander-blue=2010-2011

MU82

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 05:05:28 PM »
Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve. He is second in Orating to Gardner but close in eFG% as Gardner was so great at drawing fouls. Leads in trey%, low on turnover%, very good on steal and block%s. Not too bad in defensive rebounding % considering his size and game.

If the Scoop Coaching Committee is handing out minutes, Sandy is earning the PT. Those are NBA freshmen base stats. (Btw, dropped Vander and Jerel as their Oratings were sub-90. Deonte would have made it at 101 but Sandy is way ahead).

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?23-wesley-matthews=2005-2006&add=davante-gardner&davante-gardner=2010-2011&dominic-james=2005-2006&i=1&lazar-hayward=2006-2007&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=steve-novak&p3=dominic-james&p4=23-wesley-matthews&p5=lazar-hayward&steve-novak=2002-2003


James was a game-changer who averaged 15.3 pts, 5.4 A, 4.5 R and 1.6 stl. He was a superior defender and an amazing athlete who used to be on the "oop" end of "alleys" despite being short. Many NBA scouts considered him a superior prospect to Illinois' Dee Brown, a senior who was drafted in the second round.

From the beginning to the end of the season, especially if we don't count the tourney, James was significantly more productive as a freshman than Novak.

Cohen? Really? I mean, it's not even close.

Not. Even. Close.

If O-rating says otherwise, it is a supremely flawed statistic.

As fellow Scoopers have said, others also had far more impact than Cohen.

And I like Sandy as a player, think he has a fine future.
"We need journalists who are on the side of victims, on the side of those who are persecuted, excluded, thrown away and discriminated against ... situations of suffering that often are in the dark, or have light shining for a moment only to return to the darkness of indifference."

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tower912

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 05:07:08 PM »
This might be one of those times that the statistics don't favor the high usage player.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 05:09:02 PM »
James was a game-changer who averaged 15.3 pts, 5.4 A, 4.5 R and 1.6 stl. He was a superior defender and an amazing athlete who used to be on the "oop" end of "alleys" despite being short. Many NBA scouts considered him a superior prospect to Illinois' Dee Brown, a senior who was drafted in the second round.

From the beginning to the end of the season, especially if we don't count the tourney, James was significantly more productive as a freshman than Novak.

Cohen? Really? I mean, it's not even close.

Not. Even. Close.

If O-rating says otherwise, it is a supremely flawed statistic.

As fellow Scoopers have said, others also had far more impact than Cohen.

And I like Sandy as a player, think he has a fine future.

First of all, I said statistically as they don't play the same positions nor do they get the same playing time. Second, that was Dom's high water mark as team adjusted and used their size on him.  Sandy is going to be a star.

MuMark

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 05:10:35 PM »
Sandy is asked to do so much less then guys like James, Matthews and Jerel were it is really hard to compare them.


PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 05:18:27 PM »
 Sandy is going to be a star.
Wouldn't surprise me. His best attribute, in my opinion, is he would appear to be supremely confident in his ability, while not be self absorbed as a player.

MU82

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 05:35:35 PM »
First of all, I said statistically as they don't play the same positions nor do they get the same playing time. Second, that was Dom's high water mark as team adjusted and used their size on him.  Sandy is going to be a star.

Yes, it was Dom's highwater mark. Yes, they play different positions. And Sandy might indeed go on to be a better player (or he might not).

Here, however, was your thesis:

Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve.

And my extremely academic, deep-research counter-thesis is, "Have you been smokin' crack?"

Because there is no intelligent argument -- statistic-based, eye-test based, smell-test based or Count Basie based -- to support that Sandy is better as a freshman than James was.
"We need journalists who are on the side of victims, on the side of those who are persecuted, excluded, thrown away and discriminated against ... situations of suffering that often are in the dark, or have light shining for a moment only to return to the darkness of indifference."

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PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 05:50:22 PM »
Sandy gets hurt a lot less than James did.

Badgerhater

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 06:05:13 PM »
If Cohen is so good this year he would play more.

WarhawkWarrior

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 06:08:00 PM »
If we had to choose, I'll take Frosh Wilson.  I'm sure Sandy wii contribute but DW is a heck of a player that we will have for three more years.  Plays both sides of the ball and goes well above the rim when needed.

willie warrior

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 06:15:11 PM »
Yes, it was Dom's highwater mark. Yes, they play different positions. And Sandy might indeed go on to be a better player (or he might not).

Here, however, was your thesis:

Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve.

And my extremely academic, deep-research counter-thesis is, "Have you been smokin' crack?"

Because there is no intelligent argument -- statistic-based, eye-test based, smell-test based or Count Basie based -- to support that Sandy is better as a freshman than James was.
Yup. Pretty much like right now as to who some believe is the best player on the team.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2015, 06:29:19 PM »
Most efficient frosh since Novak? Sure. Best frosh since Novak? Well...

I think this is where you have to take usage into account. I would take any of the three amigos over Sandy. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cohen become a stud. He has the fundamentals and is starting to get the confidence. Throw in some experience and lot of time in the gym, he could be something really special.
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The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Stretchdeltsig

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 06:33:04 PM »
Sandy is very good.  He plays smoothly, under control.  He will dominate as a leader in the future.  In short, he will be a gear Warrior.

4everwarriors

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2015, 06:34:09 PM »
T-Cubed made James all that he is.
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brewcity77

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2015, 06:45:59 PM »
David Cubillan played more minutes and had a higher offensive rating as a freshman than most of the names listed.

The difficulty is sample size. Jajuan had a 108 rating last year but played around 20% of the team's minutes, with most of his time coming in non-conference play. Davante had a great rating, but again, few minutes. What's worth more, his 118 in limited minutes or Cooby's 117 in many more minutes but with a low usage rate?

As good as Sandy's been, Duane has been our best frosh since James. His numbers are legit because he's playing almost 70% of the available minutes. I'm more impressed with his 102.5 than guys with a better rating who played less than half as much.

HutchwasClutch

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2015, 06:52:15 PM »
James, Matthews, McNeal were all WAY better than Sandy as freshman.  I'd also say Lazar and Vander were better.  Sandy is a nice player, but the previously mentioned players all had much bigger impacts as freshman than Sandy has made so far.  

James and McNeal were better than Sandy.  James's best season as a Warrior may have been as a frosh.  He flirted with going pro.  Matthews did little as a frosh - he had a stress fracture in his foot, and missed a good portion of the season.  McNeal showed he belonged right away.

Lazar didn't show a lot as a frosh, was ok as I rembember.  Vander had some good frosh moments, but not consistent, and from what I recall did not do much once they got into conference play.    I think Sandy's showed more than Vander and Lazar overall, but it's pretty close I admit.

And while Duane is a redshirt frosh, still a frosh, never played a minute at this level before this season.  So he's got to be included in the conversation.

I'd rank them -
1) McNeal
2) James
3) Duane
4) Gardner
5) Sandy
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 07:01:11 PM by HutchwasClutch »

NersEllenson

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2015, 06:53:59 PM »
Sandy is going to be a very nice player at MU.

However, all of the Big Three were better.

O-Rating is a very flawed metric.

And Brew - Duane isn't "legit" because of how many minutes he plays - it isn't about how many minutes a guy plays - its about their usage.  Usage defined as:

 A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover
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HutchwasClutch

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Re: Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2015, 06:57:33 PM »
Sandy is going to be a very nice player at MU.

However, all of the Big Three were better.

O-Rating is a very flawed metric.

And Brew - Duane isn't "legit" because of how many minutes he plays - it isn't about how many minutes a guy plays - its about their usage.  Usage defined as:

 A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover

I'd have to look back at stats, but Wes showed little as a frosh, partly due to the stress fracture.  DIsagree that he showed better as a frosh than Sandy has.  
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 07:01:34 PM by HutchwasClutch »