Is Sandy the best frosh since Novak?

[77ncaachamps]

Cohen on the wing next year...with a year of experience under his belt...

DANGEROUS.

[GooooMarquette]

I'd have to look back at stats, but Wes showed little as a frosh, partly due to the stress fracture.  DIsagree that he showed better as a frosh than Sandy has.  

Wes averaged 9 ppg and 4 rpg in 24 minutes.  Not too bad, considering the injury and the fact that most of the shots were going to Steve, Dom and Jerel. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Here is another view for discussion...of the four Buzz recruits, Sandy again comes out on top if are talking tempo free. Shayok is second. Give him some minutes and let's see what happens.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=satchel-pierce&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=marial-shayok&p3=ahmed-hill

[ATL MU Warrior]

Sandy gets hurt a lot less than James did.

I laughed.

[eg021]

I like Sandy's game a lot. He's shown good drives, range from 3 and great length in passing lanes.

I'd like to see what he can do with more extended minutes. Wojo must have saw something he liked in him because he started the first couple games of the year. He too likes to jack contested 3's early in the shot clock which I'm not always fond of.

After watching Henry and his skill set, he's going to be a special player for us next year as a true frosh.

[WarriorPride68]

After watching Henry and his skill set, he's going to be a special player for us next year as a true frosh.

Bold prediction

[Pakuni]

What MU82 said over and over again.
Posts like this are what gives advanced stats a bad name.

[ChicosBailBonds]

James, Matthews, McNeal were all WAY better than Sandy as freshman.  I'd also say Lazar and Vander were better.  Sandy is a nice player, but the previously mentioned players all had much bigger impacts as freshman than Sandy has made so far.  

Not Vander, but 2 of the 3 amigos..maybe Lazar, too. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sandy gets hurt a lot less than James did.

He also plays fewer minutes and doesn't have to do what James did in terms of contact, defense, distribution, etc.  James was also a little guy going up against bigger bodies.

IMO

[bilsu]

If Cohen is so good this year he would play more.

Not necessarilly. Cohen is very talented, but he is not as physically ready to play as the three amigos were. It does seem like Sandy is getting better at physically holding his own, but the strong players push him around.

[mattyv1908]

Is this a parody post?  Todd Mayo had a better freshman year than Cohen......

[Dr. Blackheart]

Is this a parody post?  Todd Mayo had a better freshman year than Cohen......

The question to the board is whether Sandy is the best frosh since Novak?  The journalists on the board interpretation is to look at what they are trained to which is to critically examine the facts right in front of them--and their answer is Dom who clearly had a great freshman year as Crean gave him the always on green light. Like Mayo who was a sub 100 Orated freshmen, it was his best year.

Cohen, with at least 10 Big East games to play, is by far the best outside shooter frosh since Steve.  He is also very efficient with low turnovers and has a good assist rate like Wes in similar role.  He defends well, especially in man, with a similar steal percent as Dom and Wes.  He has a good block percent, similar to a center in Gardner.  For a guy that needs to add bulk, he is a decent defensive rebounder, but not so good as an offensive rebounder as his coach has him out on the perimeter. He is second to Gardner in Orating, a guy who lived at the line. He showed so much vs. Virginia that Wojo started him the first game.

So, for a board who thought Jimmy Butler was a wasted scholarship, that Lazar was not good enough to be drafted let alone in the first round, that Wes would never make it in the NBA, and for a kid that has the same valued height and switchable skills of others from MU who made it in the NBA, does anyone think this kid is the best frosh (that's projected for you journalists) since Steve?  A few of us do...let's give the kid more PT down the stretch to find out.

[Goose]

Dr. Blackheart

I think Cohen is a nice freshman and hope he develops over the next couple of years. I understand the last two years have been frustrating and we are looking for any silver lining to grab hold of, and I think Cohen falls into that camp. I would play him a ton the rest of the way and see what he brings to the table for next season. Like you, I have seen a lot of MU ball and I am not ready to jump onto this bandwagon just yet. Hope your excitement on him proves me wrong.

[bilsu]

Mayo's freshmen production disappeared once the Big East season started. Cohen appears to be on an upswing. Cohen has a very good basketball IQ, which is a big difference between him and JJJ.

[The Equalizer]

James and McNeal were better than Sandy.  James's best season as a Warrior may have been as a frosh.  He flirted with going pro.  Matthews did little as a frosh - he had a stress fracture in his foot, and missed a good portion of the season.  McNeal showed he belonged right away.

I would be very happy if all our incoming frosh would do so little their first year.

Start from day 1 and deliver 25 MPG/9 PPG/4 RPG/100.1 Ortg for the season, despite missing 8 games in the middle of the season?  Nah, not impressive at all.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

So, for a board who thought... that Lazar was not good enough to be drafted let alone in the first round

I'd opine that the board was correct on that one, it was the T-Wolves that made the mistake.

On topic, Sandy has shown he belongs since game 1 and I'm glad he is a Warrior.  But better than Dom?  Don't see it, given how much more was asked of James.

[mu-rara]

I don't mind this thread as an exercise, but freshman seasons are overrated.   Dom had his best season as a freshman.  Wes had his best season as a senior.

In a freshman evaluation, I want to see progress.  Sandy is showing progress.

[MerrittsMustache]

If we're focusing on O-Rating and ignoring actual PT, then Cohen is MU's "best" frosh since Gardner, not Novak.

[Henry Sugar]

Here are all freshmen (and Butler) sorted by ORtg. Cohen ranks #5



Here is a sort of the same group now based on Usage. Players that look better here are James, Duane Wilson, Gardner, and Amoroso. Cohen is in the group with JJJ, Novak, Butler, and Cubillan... reasonably efficient role player.



But what if a player takes a lot of shots in limited minutes? Here are all freshmen (and Butler) sorted by % of possessions. That is minutes played times total possessions. In other words, how often were they on the court and actually taking shots? Cohen ranks #14



My two cents.
Were I to rank all of the players on this list, I'd probably go with James as the best and then Duane Wilson as #2 because they were above average efficiently and contributed a lot to the team. As for Cohen, he has comparisons that show potential, but he doesn't particularly stand out. To answer the specific question, "no, I do not think Cohen is MU's best freshman since Novak". To answer an unasked question, "no, I do not think Novak was MU's best freshman".

[NersEllenson]

My conclusion:

O-Rating is a terrible metric when used alone.

Interesting to note - Per O Rating:

Derrick Wilson was better as a freshman than Jerel McNeal, Vander Blue and Jeronne Maymon.  Guys who all went on to be All Big East/SEC selections.

For all those ripping on JJJ this year - he's basically Jerel McNeal as a freshman.

[keefe]

I didn't know Cohen was a good Orator.  Haven't even heard him speak much...

He's a Comms major. Why wouldn't he be articulate?

[keefe]

T-Cubed made James all that he is.

I'll bet Dominic wishes he could have a mulligan on taking career advice from Tanned Tommy after his freshman year...cost him millions, aina?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'll bet Dominic wishes he could have a mulligan on taking career advice from Tanned Tommy after his freshman year...cost him millions, aina?

Perhaps, but then he probably never would have built his inflatable balloon empire.

[Lennys Tap]

For all those ripping on JJJ this year - he's basically Jerel McNeal as a freshman.

Jerel was an awful offensive player and a good defensive player as a freshman. JJJ is an awful offensive player and a subpar defensive player as a sophomore.

[NersEllenson]

Jerel was an awful offensive player and a good defensive player as a freshman. JJJ is an awful offensive player and a subpar defensive player as a sophomore.

Except Bama's defensive stats show just the opposite with regard to JJJ's impact on our team's defensive performance in the games he played 21+ minutes early in conference play, to how our defense devolved in Big East rankings that coincided with him getting relegate to the bench/spot minutes.

I think some fail to grasp that even the BEST shooters in the world fail 50% of the time.  Yet somebody has to be willing to shoot, force action on a team, and be aggressive.  I'd take an "awful" offensive Jerel McNeal as a freshman, and his 11.1ppg, 4.5 rebounds pg, and 2.7 assists per game in 27 minutes over what we've been getting from our upperlcassmen of late.  Not to mention Jerel's team as a freshman went to the NCAA.  Shocking talented freshman can lead you to an NCAA berth and a 10-6 Big East conference record - in the REAL Big East. 

A nice O-Rating can be compiled by virtually doing nothing on a basketball court, other than playing a lot of minutes and not turning the ball over.

See Jake Thomas last season.