MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Dr. Blackheart on February 02, 2015, 04:46:47 PM
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Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve. He is second in Orating to Gardner but close in eFG% as Gardner was so great at drawing fouls. Leads in trey%, low on turnover%, very good on steal and block%s. Not too bad in defensive rebounding % considering his size and game.
If the Scoop Coaching Committee is handing out minutes, Sandy is earning the PT. Those are NBA freshmen base stats. (Btw, dropped Vander and Jerel as their Oratings were sub-90. Deonte would have made it at 101 but Sandy is way ahead).
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?23-wesley-matthews=2005-2006&add=davante-gardner&davante-gardner=2010-2011&dominic-james=2005-2006&i=1&lazar-hayward=2006-2007&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=steve-novak&p3=dominic-james&p4=23-wesley-matthews&p5=lazar-hayward&steve-novak=2002-2003
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None of the Amigos were better?
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None of the Amigos were better?
I thought Dominic had a pretty good freshman year...I cant remember though.
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None of the Amigos were better?
See attachment. Dom was a 106. Sandy a 114.
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He is second in Orating to Gardner
I didn't know Cohen was a good Orator. Haven't even heard him speak much...
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James, Matthews, McNeal were all WAY better than Sandy as freshman. I'd also say Lazar and Vander were better. Sandy is a nice player, but the previously mentioned players all had much bigger impacts as freshman than Sandy has made so far.
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Duane Wilson is also better than Cohen. Yeah, he's a redshirt frosh but he's still a frosh.
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Here are the stats for Vander, Jerel and Duane. Duane up there with Wes in terms of Orating, closing in on Dom, which makes two of the best frosh on the current team statistically. Jerel and Vander were not very efficient freshmen year at all.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=duane-wilson&i=1&jerel-mcneal=2005-2006&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=jerel-mcneal&p3=vander-blue&vander-blue=2010-2011
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Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve. He is second in Orating to Gardner but close in eFG% as Gardner was so great at drawing fouls. Leads in trey%, low on turnover%, very good on steal and block%s. Not too bad in defensive rebounding % considering his size and game.
If the Scoop Coaching Committee is handing out minutes, Sandy is earning the PT. Those are NBA freshmen base stats. (Btw, dropped Vander and Jerel as their Oratings were sub-90. Deonte would have made it at 101 but Sandy is way ahead).
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?23-wesley-matthews=2005-2006&add=davante-gardner&davante-gardner=2010-2011&dominic-james=2005-2006&i=1&lazar-hayward=2006-2007&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=steve-novak&p3=dominic-james&p4=23-wesley-matthews&p5=lazar-hayward&steve-novak=2002-2003
James was a game-changer who averaged 15.3 pts, 5.4 A, 4.5 R and 1.6 stl. He was a superior defender and an amazing athlete who used to be on the "oop" end of "alleys" despite being short. Many NBA scouts considered him a superior prospect to Illinois' Dee Brown, a senior who was drafted in the second round.
From the beginning to the end of the season, especially if we don't count the tourney, James was significantly more productive as a freshman than Novak.
Cohen? Really? I mean, it's not even close.
Not. Even. Close.
If O-rating says otherwise, it is a supremely flawed statistic.
As fellow Scoopers have said, others also had far more impact than Cohen.
And I like Sandy as a player, think he has a fine future.
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This might be one of those times that the statistics don't favor the high usage player.
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James was a game-changer who averaged 15.3 pts, 5.4 A, 4.5 R and 1.6 stl. He was a superior defender and an amazing athlete who used to be on the "oop" end of "alleys" despite being short. Many NBA scouts considered him a superior prospect to Illinois' Dee Brown, a senior who was drafted in the second round.
From the beginning to the end of the season, especially if we don't count the tourney, James was significantly more productive as a freshman than Novak.
Cohen? Really? I mean, it's not even close.
Not. Even. Close.
If O-rating says otherwise, it is a supremely flawed statistic.
As fellow Scoopers have said, others also had far more impact than Cohen.
And I like Sandy as a player, think he has a fine future.
First of all, I said statistically as they don't play the same positions nor do they get the same playing time. Second, that was Dom's high water mark as team adjusted and used their size on him. Sandy is going to be a star.
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Sandy is asked to do so much less then guys like James, Matthews and Jerel were it is really hard to compare them.
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Sandy is going to be a star.
Wouldn't surprise me. His best attribute, in my opinion, is he would appear to be supremely confident in his ability, while not be self absorbed as a player.
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First of all, I said statistically as they don't play the same positions nor do they get the same playing time. Second, that was Dom's high water mark as team adjusted and used their size on him. Sandy is going to be a star.
Yes, it was Dom's highwater mark. Yes, they play different positions. And Sandy might indeed go on to be a better player (or he might not).
Here, however, was your thesis:
Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve.
And my extremely academic, deep-research counter-thesis is, "Have you been smokin' crack?"
Because there is no intelligent argument -- statistic-based, eye-test based, smell-test based or Count Basie based -- to support that Sandy is better as a freshman than James was.
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Sandy gets hurt a lot less than James did.
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If Cohen is so good this year he would play more.
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If we had to choose, I'll take Frosh Wilson. I'm sure Sandy wii contribute but DW is a heck of a player that we will have for three more years. Plays both sides of the ball and goes well above the rim when needed.
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Yes, it was Dom's highwater mark. Yes, they play different positions. And Sandy might indeed go on to be a better player (or he might not).
Here, however, was your thesis:
Statistically, one could make the argument that Sandy is MU's best freshman since Steve.
And my extremely academic, deep-research counter-thesis is, "Have you been smokin' crack?"
Because there is no intelligent argument -- statistic-based, eye-test based, smell-test based or Count Basie based -- to support that Sandy is better as a freshman than James was.
Yup. Pretty much like right now as to who some believe is the best player on the team.
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Most efficient frosh since Novak? Sure. Best frosh since Novak? Well...
I think this is where you have to take usage into account. I would take any of the three amigos over Sandy. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cohen become a stud. He has the fundamentals and is starting to get the confidence. Throw in some experience and lot of time in the gym, he could be something really special.
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Sandy is very good. He plays smoothly, under control. He will dominate as a leader in the future. In short, he will be a gear Warrior.
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T-Cubed made James all that he is.
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David Cubillan played more minutes and had a higher offensive rating as a freshman than most of the names listed.
The difficulty is sample size. Jajuan had a 108 rating last year but played around 20% of the team's minutes, with most of his time coming in non-conference play. Davante had a great rating, but again, few minutes. What's worth more, his 118 in limited minutes or Cooby's 117 in many more minutes but with a low usage rate?
As good as Sandy's been, Duane has been our best frosh since James. His numbers are legit because he's playing almost 70% of the available minutes. I'm more impressed with his 102.5 than guys with a better rating who played less than half as much.
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James, Matthews, McNeal were all WAY better than Sandy as freshman. I'd also say Lazar and Vander were better. Sandy is a nice player, but the previously mentioned players all had much bigger impacts as freshman than Sandy has made so far.
James and McNeal were better than Sandy. James's best season as a Warrior may have been as a frosh. He flirted with going pro. Matthews did little as a frosh - he had a stress fracture in his foot, and missed a good portion of the season. McNeal showed he belonged right away.
Lazar didn't show a lot as a frosh, was ok as I rembember. Vander had some good frosh moments, but not consistent, and from what I recall did not do much once they got into conference play. I think Sandy's showed more than Vander and Lazar overall, but it's pretty close I admit.
And while Duane is a redshirt frosh, still a frosh, never played a minute at this level before this season. So he's got to be included in the conversation.
I'd rank them -
1) McNeal
2) James
3) Duane
4) Gardner
5) Sandy
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Sandy is going to be a very nice player at MU.
However, all of the Big Three were better.
O-Rating is a very flawed metric.
And Brew - Duane isn't "legit" because of how many minutes he plays - it isn't about how many minutes a guy plays - its about their usage. Usage defined as:
A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover
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Sandy is going to be a very nice player at MU.
However, all of the Big Three were better.
O-Rating is a very flawed metric.
And Brew - Duane isn't "legit" because of how many minutes he plays - it isn't about how many minutes a guy plays - its about their usage. Usage defined as:
A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover
I'd have to look back at stats, but Wes showed little as a frosh, partly due to the stress fracture. DIsagree that he showed better as a frosh than Sandy has.
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Cohen on the wing next year...with a year of experience under his belt...
DANGEROUS.
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I'd have to look back at stats, but Wes showed little as a frosh, partly due to the stress fracture. DIsagree that he showed better as a frosh than Sandy has.
Wes averaged 9 ppg and 4 rpg in 24 minutes. Not too bad, considering the injury and the fact that most of the shots were going to Steve, Dom and Jerel.
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Here is another view for discussion...of the four Buzz recruits, Sandy again comes out on top if are talking tempo free. Shayok is second. Give him some minutes and let's see what happens.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=satchel-pierce&p1=sandy-cohen-iii&p2=marial-shayok&p3=ahmed-hill
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Sandy gets hurt a lot less than James did.
I laughed.
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I like Sandy's game a lot. He's shown good drives, range from 3 and great length in passing lanes.
I'd like to see what he can do with more extended minutes. Wojo must have saw something he liked in him because he started the first couple games of the year. He too likes to jack contested 3's early in the shot clock which I'm not always fond of.
After watching Henry and his skill set, he's going to be a special player for us next year as a true frosh.
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After watching Henry and his skill set, he's going to be a special player for us next year as a true frosh.
Bold prediction
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What MU82 said over and over again.
Posts like this are what gives advanced stats a bad name.
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James, Matthews, McNeal were all WAY better than Sandy as freshman. I'd also say Lazar and Vander were better. Sandy is a nice player, but the previously mentioned players all had much bigger impacts as freshman than Sandy has made so far.
Not Vander, but 2 of the 3 amigos..maybe Lazar, too.
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Sandy gets hurt a lot less than James did.
He also plays fewer minutes and doesn't have to do what James did in terms of contact, defense, distribution, etc. James was also a little guy going up against bigger bodies.
IMO
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If Cohen is so good this year he would play more.
Not necessarilly. Cohen is very talented, but he is not as physically ready to play as the three amigos were. It does seem like Sandy is getting better at physically holding his own, but the strong players push him around.
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Is this a parody post? Todd Mayo had a better freshman year than Cohen......
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Is this a parody post? Todd Mayo had a better freshman year than Cohen......
The question to the board is whether Sandy is the best frosh since Novak? The journalists on the board interpretation is to look at what they are trained to which is to critically examine the facts right in front of them--and their answer is Dom who clearly had a great freshman year as Crean gave him the always on green light. Like Mayo who was a sub 100 Orated freshmen, it was his best year.
Cohen, with at least 10 Big East games to play, is by far the best outside shooter frosh since Steve. He is also very efficient with low turnovers and has a good assist rate like Wes in similar role. He defends well, especially in man, with a similar steal percent as Dom and Wes. He has a good block percent, similar to a center in Gardner. For a guy that needs to add bulk, he is a decent defensive rebounder, but not so good as an offensive rebounder as his coach has him out on the perimeter. He is second to Gardner in Orating, a guy who lived at the line. He showed so much vs. Virginia that Wojo started him the first game.
So, for a board who thought Jimmy Butler was a wasted scholarship, that Lazar was not good enough to be drafted let alone in the first round, that Wes would never make it in the NBA, and for a kid that has the same valued height and switchable skills of others from MU who made it in the NBA, does anyone think this kid is the best frosh (that's projected for you journalists) since Steve? A few of us do...let's give the kid more PT down the stretch to find out.
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Dr. Blackheart
I think Cohen is a nice freshman and hope he develops over the next couple of years. I understand the last two years have been frustrating and we are looking for any silver lining to grab hold of, and I think Cohen falls into that camp. I would play him a ton the rest of the way and see what he brings to the table for next season. Like you, I have seen a lot of MU ball and I am not ready to jump onto this bandwagon just yet. Hope your excitement on him proves me wrong.
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Mayo's freshmen production disappeared once the Big East season started. Cohen appears to be on an upswing. Cohen has a very good basketball IQ, which is a big difference between him and JJJ.
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James and McNeal were better than Sandy. James's best season as a Warrior may have been as a frosh. He flirted with going pro. Matthews did little as a frosh - he had a stress fracture in his foot, and missed a good portion of the season. McNeal showed he belonged right away.
I would be very happy if all our incoming frosh would do so little their first year.
Start from day 1 and deliver 25 MPG/9 PPG/4 RPG/100.1 Ortg for the season, despite missing 8 games in the middle of the season? Nah, not impressive at all.
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So, for a board who thought... that Lazar was not good enough to be drafted let alone in the first round
I'd opine that the board was correct on that one, it was the T-Wolves that made the mistake.
On topic, Sandy has shown he belongs since game 1 and I'm glad he is a Warrior. But better than Dom? Don't see it, given how much more was asked of James.
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I don't mind this thread as an exercise, but freshman seasons are overrated. Dom had his best season as a freshman. Wes had his best season as a senior.
In a freshman evaluation, I want to see progress. Sandy is showing progress.
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If we're focusing on O-Rating and ignoring actual PT, then Cohen is MU's "best" frosh since Gardner, not Novak.
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Here are all freshmen (and Butler) sorted by ORtg. Cohen ranks #5
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/Freshmen1-1.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen1-1.png.html)
Here is a sort of the same group now based on Usage. Players that look better here are James, Duane Wilson, Gardner, and Amoroso. Cohen is in the group with JJJ, Novak, Butler, and Cubillan... reasonably efficient role player.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/Freshmen3.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen3.png.html)
But what if a player takes a lot of shots in limited minutes? Here are all freshmen (and Butler) sorted by % of possessions. That is minutes played times total possessions. In other words, how often were they on the court and actually taking shots? Cohen ranks #14
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/Freshmen2.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Freshmen2.png.html)
My two cents.
Were I to rank all of the players on this list, I'd probably go with James as the best and then Duane Wilson as #2 because they were above average efficiently and contributed a lot to the team. As for Cohen, he has comparisons that show potential, but he doesn't particularly stand out. To answer the specific question, "no, I do not think Cohen is MU's best freshman since Novak". To answer an unasked question, "no, I do not think Novak was MU's best freshman".
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My conclusion:
O-Rating is a terrible metric when used alone.
Interesting to note - Per O Rating:
Derrick Wilson was better as a freshman than Jerel McNeal, Vander Blue and Jeronne Maymon. Guys who all went on to be All Big East/SEC selections.
For all those ripping on JJJ this year - he's basically Jerel McNeal as a freshman.
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I didn't know Cohen was a good Orator. Haven't even heard him speak much...
He's a Comms major. Why wouldn't he be articulate?
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T-Cubed made James all that he is.
I'll bet Dominic wishes he could have a mulligan on taking career advice from Tanned Tommy after his freshman year...cost him millions, aina?
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I'll bet Dominic wishes he could have a mulligan on taking career advice from Tanned Tommy after his freshman year...cost him millions, aina?
Perhaps, but then he probably never would have built his inflatable balloon empire.
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For all those ripping on JJJ this year - he's basically Jerel McNeal as a freshman.
Jerel was an awful offensive player and a good defensive player as a freshman. JJJ is an awful offensive player and a subpar defensive player as a sophomore.
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Jerel was an awful offensive player and a good defensive player as a freshman. JJJ is an awful offensive player and a subpar defensive player as a sophomore.
Except Bama's defensive stats show just the opposite with regard to JJJ's impact on our team's defensive performance in the games he played 21+ minutes early in conference play, to how our defense devolved in Big East rankings that coincided with him getting relegate to the bench/spot minutes.
I think some fail to grasp that even the BEST shooters in the world fail 50% of the time. Yet somebody has to be willing to shoot, force action on a team, and be aggressive. I'd take an "awful" offensive Jerel McNeal as a freshman, and his 11.1ppg, 4.5 rebounds pg, and 2.7 assists per game in 27 minutes over what we've been getting from our upperlcassmen of late. Not to mention Jerel's team as a freshman went to the NCAA. Shocking talented freshman can lead you to an NCAA berth and a 10-6 Big East conference record - in the REAL Big East.
A nice O-Rating can be compiled by virtually doing nothing on a basketball court, other than playing a lot of minutes and not turning the ball over.
See Jake Thomas last season.
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Here are all freshmen (and Butler) sorted by ORtg. Cohen ranks #5
Good post, Henry. I agree that I wouldn't have Novak as the best. I think there's more value when you look at guys who played a lot of minutes. Jajuan's ORtg last year was somewhat fool's gold because he had some big games early and saw his minutes drop significantly in conference play. Sandy and Duane have been playing as well or better in conference play and doing it with increased minutes.
Usage is important, but if a guy comes in for 4 minutes and has 3 shots, it will overinflate his usage. The more minutes you log the more accurate the usage stat becomes. That's why I think Cubillan had a particularly impressive freshman year. He may not have shot a ton, but he picked his spots well and was a reliable sniper. Lower usage, but because he was out there 58% of the time you know the numbers you get from him are actually accurate. The more a guy plays, the more accurate the picture becomes. That's why Dom was so impressive as a freshman and why I'd also put Duane second behind him.
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Kid has a great attitude....http://wbay.com/2015/02/02/cohen-making-impression-freshman-year/
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Kid has a great attitude....http://wbay.com/2015/02/02/cohen-making-impression-freshman-year/
Great video, thanks for sharing.
Didn't Cohen have some trouble in his household? Wasn't he raised in a single mother household and his mother was struggling to support him, so he moved in with his coach for the last 2 or 3 years of high school? Not trying to say the situations are the same, but maybe (hopefully) Noskowiak will be better off when he gets to Marquette.
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Kid has a great attitude....http://wbay.com/2015/02/02/cohen-making-impression-freshman-year/
“I’ve been ok with [the decrease in minutes since early in the season] because Coach Wojo has been around the game for a really long time and I know he knows whats best for me and my teammates and he’s just trying to put our team in the best position to win so if I’m not playing a lot one game its probably not best for the team so I believe in his coaching strategies,” said Cohen.
Classic Wojo mind games.
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Wouldn't surprise me. His best attribute, in my opinion, is he would appear to be supremely confident in his ability, while not be self absorbed as a player.
This is probably the best way to qualitatively describe Sandy's disposition on the court. Really like what I see out of him skill-wise and BBIQ-wise
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Kid has a great attitude....http://wbay.com/2015/02/02/cohen-making-impression-freshman-year/
Wow, I think Cohen just became my new favorite player.
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I hope Sandy does great. Hope his shot starts to fall. Will be an asset. The best freshman in the state this year
is Redshirting--his name is ETHAN HAPP at UW. We will have to contend with him next year. Gives Kaminsky, Dekker and Hayes fits in practice. This is MU, but have to admit, we missed him. Also, Trevor Anderson of
Stevens Point, Hauser's teammate is nothing fancy just plays hard, excellent shooter, sets people teammates
up, plays the point and defense. If Nick has a problem, Anderson would be a find.
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“I’ve been ok with [the decrease in minutes since early in the season] because Coach Wojo has been around the game for a really long time and I know he knows whats best for me and my teammates and he’s just trying to put our team in the best position to win so if I’m not playing a lot one game its probably not best for the team so I believe in his coaching strategies,” said Cohen.
Classic Wojo mind games.
Wojo slurper. He's received more minutes than many anticipated going into the season. JJJ has received less. Cohen is the response to everyone who says that it isn't fair that JJJ isn't getting more minutes. The formula is simple. Work hard in practice every day. Know your defensive assignment. Take smart shots within the offense. Hustle when you get in the game. Earn your minutes.
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“I’ve been ok with [the decrease in minutes since early in the season] because Coach Wojo has been around the game for a really long time and I know he knows whats best for me and my teammates and he’s just trying to put our team in the best position to win so if I’m not playing a lot one game its probably not best for the team so I believe in his coaching strategies,” said Cohen.
Classic Wojo mind games.
Wojo just sees more of himself in Sandy...or Wojo is sticking it to the administration...or Wojo got to Dickey Simpkins who is actually the one who determines playing time.
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I hope Sandy does great. Hope his shot starts to fall. Will be an asset. The best freshman in the state this year
is Redshirting--his name is ETHAN HAPP at UW. We will have to contend with him next year. Gives Kaminsky, Dekker and Hayes fits in practice. This is MU, but have to admit, we missed him. Also, Trevor Anderson of
Stevens Point, Hauser's teammate is nothing fancy just plays hard, excellent shooter, sets people teammates
up, plays the point and defense. If Nick has a problem, Anderson would be a find.
Yep, if he could only get some shots to fall he'd be much better than 4th in the BE in 3P%
Perhaps you're right about Happ, but a 3-star recruit who chose UW over GB and UWM? Really? If he was really that ready to contribute, why is he redshirting as opposed to taking Duje Dukan's minutes?
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Dickey Simpkins who is actually the one who determines playing time.
HASHTAG DERBRICK
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Perhaps you're right about Happ, but a 3-star recruit who chose UW over GB and UWM? Really? If he was really that ready to contribute, why is he redshirting as opposed to taking Duje Dukan's minutes?
I have learned to never really question what comes out of Madison in this regard. Say what you want, but Bo does a good job of getting much more out of player than is to be expected.
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I have learned to never really question what comes out of Madison in this regard. Say what you want, but Bo does a good job of getting much more out of player than is to be expected.
Happ may be forced into action earlier than most due to all the guys likely leaving Madison this year, but I'd guess he'll be that typical Bo guy that doesn't do much for a couple years then becomes another annoying Leuer/Kaminsky type that goes from role-player to quality starter on a top-25 team.
Either that or he'll get BOned like Ian Markolf.
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Happ may be forced into action earlier than most due to all the guys likely leaving Madison this year, but I'd guess he'll be that typical Bo guy that doesn't do much for a couple years then becomes another annoying Leuer/Kaminsky type that goes from role-player to quality starter on a top-25 team.
Either that or he'll get BOned like Ian Markolf.
Hey, man, quit making stuff up! Don't you know, the guy just lost his love for the game of basketball and quit the team, there is no such thing as BOned!
He just hates the game and no longer wanted to play (which is why he is currently playing at the University of The Incarnate Word).
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HASHTAG DERBRICK
Classic. The guy shooting .456/.296 is "Derbrick", but he should be replaced by the guy shooting .401/.156.
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I have learned to never really question what comes out of Madison in this regard. Say what you want, but Bo does a good job of getting much more out of player than is to be expected.
Brian Butch.
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Wojo slurper. He's received more minutes than many anticipated going into the season. JJJ has received less. Cohen is the response to everyone who says that it isn't fair that JJJ isn't getting more minutes. The formula is simple. Work hard in practice every day. Know your defensive assignment. Take smart shots within the offense. Hustle when you get in the game. Earn your minutes.
Could you please enlighten the board as to what Cohen's and every other player on the team's "defensive assignment" is/are - as well as what "smart shots within the offense," are?
"Hustle when you get in the game." Priceless.
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Brian Butch.
Very good college player who was overrated coming out of high school.
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Very good college player who was overrated coming out of high school.
I'm not sure I'd even say he was a very good college player. His senior year was by far his best season and he was 12 and 6. Solid? Definitely. But very good is overhyping his college career.
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I'm not sure I'd even say he was a very good college player. His senior year was by far his best season and he was 12 and 6. Solid? Definitely. But very good is overhyping his college career.
You'd have to look at secondary stats as well. I seem to recall those teams playing SUPER SLOW, thus, his point totals would partially be attributed to tempo... but maybe I'm just mis-remembering.
Bo actually has been a very good recruiter, and has landed some high level talent (butch, Krabby, dekker, Steinsma, Harris, etc.), but he's really scored with some of his mid-level recruits that he's turned into REALLY good players (Frank, Leuer, Kam Taylor, etc.)
I think some people automatically think of the Badgers as creating players from nothing, but they have good recruits. For whatever reason, it just FEELS like these dudes come from nowhere.
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You'd have to look at secondary stats as well. I seem to recall those teams playing SUPER SLOW, thus, his point totals would partially be attributed to tempo... but maybe I'm just mis-remembering.
Bo actually has been a very good recruiter, and has landed some high level talent (butch, Krabby, dekker, Steinsma, Harris, etc.), but he's really scored with some of his mid-level recruits that he's turned into REALLY good players (Frank, Leuer, Kam Taylor, etc.)
I think some people automatically think of the Badgers as creating players from nothing, but they have good recruits. For whatever reason, it just FEELS like these dudes come from nowhere.
Those mid-level recruits were borderline Top 100. Difference between being Top 100 and borderline is rather meaningless after the Top 25 or so. Identifying guys thaT fit your system is probably more important.
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Where was Happ going to get his minutes from? With Hayes, Dekker, Kaminsky, Dukan (a senior, seniors always
get minutes) and Vitto Brown. Happ probably would have Brown's minutes from the way Brown is playing.
So why waste a year. Has 4 years left after this season.
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Jerel was an awful offensive player and a good defensive player as a freshman.
That statement couldn't be farther from the truth. He averaged 11.1 for the season, 21 double digit scoring games, 19 pts against No. 2 UConn the night Novak went off (how many remember how solid he was that night?), shot 44% FG, and 75% FT. He was a poor 3pt shooter and I don't think really improved that aspect of his game until late junior season. He and James were great complements to Novak's perimeter shooting in that they both penetrated and created offense and shots for themselves.
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I would be very happy if all our incoming frosh would do so little their first year.
Start from day 1 and deliver 25 MPG/9 PPG/4 RPG/100.1 Ortg for the season, despite missing 8 games in the middle of the season? Nah, not impressive at all.
Did you watch any of his freshman season? I guess you just looked up a few stats to debunk my opinion and that's gospel to you. I seriously doubt you watched him much at all that year. He was very spotty his freshman year, James and McNeal clearly shined more. Anyone that watched games that year would agree with that. That team was dominated by Novak, McNeal, James, and everyone else a dime a dozen. Most of that season's high points for him were non- conference. His whole MU career was very ordinary until his senior year, when he was sensational.
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Where was Happ going to get his minutes from? With Hayes, Dekker, Kaminsky, Dukan (a senior, seniors always
get minutes) and Vitto Brown. Happ probably would have Brown's minutes from the way Brown is playing.
So why waste a year. Has 4 years left after this season.
I guess that's the point. If he can't find minutes over Duje Dukan and Vitto Brown then maybe he's not the best freshman in the state.
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Did you watch any of his freshman season? I guess you just looked up a few stats to debunk my opinion and that's gospel to you. I seriously doubt you watched him much at all that year. He was very spotty his freshman year, James and McNeal clearly shined more. Anyone that watched games that year would agree with that. That team was dominated by Novak, McNeal, James, and everyone else a dime a dozen. Most of that season's high points for him were non- conference. His whole MU career was very ordinary until his senior year, when he was sensational.
You do realize we are talking about Wes Matthews and not Jamil Lott or Ryan Amoroso, right?
Unfortunately, you didn't merely state that James and McNeal had better seasons. That's a valid statement, and you'd get little argument from me (Although I might point out that the 2 points per game scoring difference between Matthews and McNeal was probably offset by the points given up by McNeal's poor defense and tendency to turn the ball over).
Unfortunately, you go off the rails with the statement that "Matthews did little as a frosh," which is simply insane. He had an outstanding freshman season--especially so considering that he missed a month of games (and practices) at the start of conference play. And if it didn't happen to occur at the same time that two of the best freshmen of the last 20 years were playing, maybe you wouldn't have overlooked him.
Its hard to understand a more misguided statement that you lumping Matthews in with Jamil Lott and Chris Grimm and Mike Kinsella and Ryan Amoroso as similar "dime a dozen" players. In fact, not to give him credit for being better than Dan Fitzgerald, Ousmane Barro or Joe Chapman that year is equally misguided.
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You do realize we are talking about Wes Matthews and not Jamil Lott or Ryan Amoroso, right?
Unfortunately, you didn't merely state that James and McNeal had better seasons. That's a valid statement, and you'd get little argument from me (Although I might point out that the 2 points per game scoring difference between Matthews and McNeal was probably offset by the points given up by McNeal's poor defense and tendency to turn the ball over).
Unfortunately, you go off the rails with the statement that "Matthews did little as a frosh," which is simply insane. He had an outstanding freshman season--especially so considering that he missed a month of games (and practices) at the start of conference play. And if it didn't happen to occur at the same time that two of the best freshmen of the last 20 years were playing, maybe you wouldn't have overlooked him.
Its hard to understand a more misguided statement that you lumping Matthews in with Jamil Lott and Chris Grimm and Mike Kinsella and Ryan Amoroso as similar "dime a dozen" players. In fact, not to give him credit for being better than Dan Fitzgerald, Ousmane Barro or Joe Chapman that year is equally misguided.
That year, that year - he was incredibly ordinary. For a career and talent level as a whole, of course he's well above any of the stiffs you named. To say his freshman year was "outstanding" is revisionist history.
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Cohen, with at least 10 Big East games to play, is by far the best outside shooter frosh since Steve.
Cohen 3Pters: 18-44 = .409
Cubillan 3Pters (2006-07): 48-113 = .425
Cohen FT% = .737
Cubillan FT% (2006-07): .763
I like Sandy, I really do, and I think he has a much higher ceiling than David Cubillan. But I'm searching for the statistic that proves Sandy "is by far the best outside shooter frosh since Steve" ... unless you are talking about Steve Taylor!
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Sandy is the complete package. He will be one of Marquette's best!
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Sandy is the complete package. He will be one of Marquette's best!
Now that Sir, is a mouthful. He is a frosh, and he has potential. One of MU's best: Let's see, would he be better than, in no particular order?:
Wade, Diener, Kojis, Tatum, Lucas, Meminger, B. Lee, Ellis, Lackey, Chones, Wardle, Rivers, L. McNeil, Mathews, James, Key, Worthen, Cobb, Hutchins, M. Johnson, D. Johnson, Walton, Trotter, and even J. McNeil. And finally: Brute force: G. Thompson!!!!!!!
My apologies to those that I have missed. But complete package? One of the best? I like the kid and hope he gets there! But let's not get carried away. Your enthusiasm is great,