Why JJJ has to play 25+ minutes per game

[g0lden3agle]

LOL - Says the guy who champions continued and max minutes for a guy that has produced next to nothing on the floor for over 1.5 seasons of being played max minutes.

And for the 100th time - here were Burton's numbers when he transferred:
47.8% FG percentage (tops on team).  76.5 FT (2nd on team).  40% 3pt FG% (tops on team at time of transfer) 

You same clowns tear down Denote's production (which there actually is, and was as a freshman) and champion a senior who does virtually nothing out there...other than not screw up, and grab some rebounds and make a few lateral passes along the perimeter for assists.  It really is ass backwards and asinine. 

Who here trashes Deonte?

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't know what that means, but Judge Perd will allow it.

(Judge Perd is not a real judge)

More a fan of "Mock Trial with J. Reinhold," I assume.

[brewcity77]

That's it? That's the awful thing that wojo did to make you say he threw Burton under the bus? I was expecting something at least sort of sketchy.

I'm sure that wojo told Burton he would be a key player when took over. He was an all big east freshman, of course the coach would think he would be a key player. What I'm positive Wojo didn't say was you will be a key player, this year, no matter how you're performing, and I will give you at least X minutes a game.

Promises like what you are describing are two way agreements. The coaches agree to give minutes if the players give them effort and production. Burton I'm sure gave effort but he didn't give wojo production. He failed to hold up his end of the bargain. Burton struggled, we all saw that. I personally think it was due to having to play pf and dealing with a terrible tragedy. Whatever the reason, his production was not worthy of more minutes.

You have the player coach relationship backwards. Coaches don't give minutes. Players aren't entitled to minutes. Players earn minutes. Coaches reward production and effort with minutes. Burton wasn't suddenly going to get better because he got more minutes. But he would suddenly get more minutes if he got better.

I know you think you are supporting players like JjJ and Burton but you actually make them out to be entitled, uncoachable, pouters who aren't self aware and quit when they don't get their way. I really think they are better men than that. I think Burton may have been frustrated with his role but I think he would have worked through that if he wasn't dealing with a tragedy in his personal life. I think JjJ is working hard everyday to get better and earn his minutes. Sandy is living proof that wojo rewards improvement with game minutes.

I admire your continued effort in this discussion, TAMU, but fear you are fighting a no-win battle. Stats will be cherry picked -- offensive rating matters when it comes to what Burton and Johnson did last year but not when it comes to Derrick or apparently Sandy this year. When you point out that the argument posed by the other side makes Jajuan and Deonte look like whining, entitled pouters (not something I'm saying they are at all, but something they are made out to be by the other side) those comments will be ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

This is a great post by you. It really sums things up well. And like all insightful posts, will be dismissed and ignored in favor of the same rhetoric about Derrick and Wojo. Fight the good fight, but realize that just like a clown punching bag, it will always bounce back up undaunted and ignorant to your blows.

[jsglow]

Are we really back to this?

[MU B2002]

Are we really back to this?

Did we ever leave?

[jsglow]

Did we ever leave?

No, but it got so bad for a while that I did.   

[NersEllenson]

I admire your continued effort in this discussion, TAMU, but fear you are fighting a no-win battle. Stats will be cherry picked -- offensive rating matters when it comes to what Burton and Johnson did last year but not when it comes to Derrick or apparently Sandy this year. When you point out that the argument posed by the other side makes Jajuan and Deonte look like whining, entitled pouters (not something I'm saying they are at all, but something they are made out to be by the other side) those comments will be ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

This is a great post by you. It really sums things up well. And like all insightful posts, will be dismissed and ignored in favor of the same rhetoric about Derrick and Wojo. Fight the good fight, but realize that just like a clown punching bag, it will always bounce back up undaunted and ignorant to your blows.

You fail to understand that O-Rating by itself is NOT a metric for determining a players value/talent.  Are you that dense to not understand/comprehend usage?

Do you believe Jake Thomas is a better player than Duane Wilson or Todd Mayo??  Maybe you do - as I know you feel Derrick is better than both Junior Cadougan and Buycks??  And I'm called delusional here.  LOL.

[Class71]

Anyone have a definition of obsessive compulsive?

[GooooMarquette]

So less playing time than a player expected = "throwing him under the bus"?

Guess that means several hundred D-1 players get thrown under the bus by their coaches every season.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I admire your continued effort in this discussion, TAMU, but fear you are fighting a no-win battle. Stats will be cherry picked -- offensive rating matters when it comes to what Burton and Johnson did last year but not when it comes to Derrick or apparently Sandy this year. When you point out that the argument posed by the other side makes Jajuan and Deonte look like whining, entitled pouters (not something I'm saying they are at all, but something they are made out to be by the other side) those comments will be ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

This is a great post by you. It really sums things up well. And like all insightful posts, will be dismissed and ignored in favor of the same rhetoric about Derrick and Wojo. Fight the good fight, but realize that just like a clown punching bag, it will always bounce back up undaunted and ignorant to your blows.

Oh I know. I'm not on a mission to change anybody's mind. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the debate. Whenever I make a well reasoned defense I wait in anticipation of what the next....unconventional...theory will be be. It's quite entertaining. And every once in awhile a good point is brought up that I hadn't considered before and it makes me think.

[Da 'Lanche]

But...My God...can't you see the magnitude of the danger here?....they have gotten to Dickey Simpkins...Dickey Simpkins!!!  ....if the MU conspirator machine can get to him, my God they can get to anybody.    Someone needs to alert Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale...they are in grave danger.   Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...

[willie warrior]

Can't see JJJ getting 25+ minutes per game given the current rotations. With a 3 guard set of 120 minutes, you have Wojo and Derrick eating up about 68-70 minutes, Duane at about 28 minutes and Sandy getting about 20 minutes. Does not leave much for JJJ.

[Lighthouse 84]

Can't see JJJ getting 25+ minutes per game given the current rotations. With a 3 guard set of 120 minutes, you have Wojo and Derrick eating up about 68-70 minutes, Duane at about 28 minutes and Sandy getting about 20 minutes. Does not leave much for JJJ.

When did Wojo get eligibility? 

Or did you mean Carlino and Derrick? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Except he continues to be classified by Pomeroy as a limited role player, playing max minutes.  See the disconnect??  It is completely incongruent that your leading minute getter is essentially a limited role player.  By virtue of being on the floor 33+ minutes per game - you are going to find your way to 5 ppg, and some rebounds and assists.  The proverbial blind squirrel can find a nut.  And as has been revealed, O-Rating in and of itself is an incredibly flawed metric.

The proverbial blind squirrel on our team is JjJ. Have you seen his shooting stats?

You may recall that you were the king of O-rating last season when it fit your narrative. But it is a flawed metric. Like every other metric, so it's not fair to throw it out. Derrick has high efficiency and low usage. Do you know why his usage is so low? Because he knows his limitations and doesn't look to shoot, he looks to put others in a position to shoot. He also doesn't turn the ball over. You say O-Rating is flawed because it puts so much emphasis on turnovers? Usage is affected even more by turnovers. When you have low turnovers, your usage goes down. When you have a lot of turnovers it goes up. Why is JjJ's usage so high? Because he shoots despite not being good at it and turns the ball over. Just as o-rating is useless without usage, usage is useless without o-rating.

I will cite Lenny properly this time:

High usage, high efficiency = Star of the team
Low Usage, high efficiency = Solid role player
Low Usage, low efficiency = Bench player
High Usage, low efficiency = Disaster

Derrick is in the solid role player category. I would much rather have him on the floor than JjJ. Unfortunately the only player we have the star category is Carlino (our actual lead minute getter). The rest are in the role or bench player category, though I believe Duane is getting close to star status. JjJ is the only one in the disaster category.

[willie warrior]

When did Wojo get eligibility? 

Or did you mean Carlino and Derrick? 

Yeah, sorry, I meant Carlino. My bad. Besides--we have our own Wojo Clone already--Derrick--but he doesn't slap the floor near enough.

[NersEllenson]

Oh I know. I'm not on a mission to change anybody's mind. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the debate. Whenever I make a well reasoned defense I wait in anticipation of what the next....unconventional...theory will be be. It's quite entertaining. And every once in awhile a good point is brought up that I hadn't considered before and it makes me think.

I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU.  Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks.  Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.

I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets.  We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings.  Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.

All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.

If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But...My God...can't you see the magnitude of the danger here?....they have gotten to Dickey Simpkins...Dickey Simpkins!!!  ....if the MU conspirator machine can get to him, my God they can get to anybody.    Someone needs to alert Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale...they are in grave danger.   Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...

"Big Derrick" can get to anybody at anytime.

Sleep with one eye open, gents.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU.  Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks.  Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.

I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets.  We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings.  Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.

All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.

If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)

I have never said Derrick was better than Buycks or Cadougan. I personally don't believe it.

I think we refuted your point pretty easily. You just didn't accept the answer. JjJ got 25+ minutes because he was playing well. He didn't play well because he got 25+ minutes.

I believe o-rating is a flawed metric on its own. You have to pair it with usage. That gives you the most accurate picture. If you use the two in tandem, it shows that Derrick is a solid role player while JjJ is the worst on the team. I also buy into Bama's value add stat. It has its flaws too but what metric doesn't.

[We R Final Four]

But...My God...can't you see the magnitude of the danger here?....they have gotten to Dickey Simpkins...Dickey Simpkins!!!  ....if the MU conspirator machine can get to him, my God they can get to anybody.    Someone needs to alert Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale...they are in grave danger.   Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...

"Can you say #conspiracy?"
                   -Dickie Simpkins

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Hell, this conspiracy may go all the way to Rome....the Pope is Jesuit....Papa Francisco may even be in on this...

"Someone talked.  Go make... inquisitions."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have never said Derrick was better than Buycks or Cadougan. I personally don't believe it.

I think we refuted your point pretty easily. You just didn't accept the answer. JjJ got 25+ minutes because he was playing well. He didn't play well because he got 25+ minutes.

I believe o-rating is a flawed metric on its own. You have to pair it with usage. That gives you the most accurate picture. If you use the two in tandem, it shows that Derrick is a solid role player while JjJ is the worst on the team. I also buy into Bama's value add stat. It has its flaws too but what metric doesn't.

How do your metrics measure the fact that you didn't play high school basketball?

#DerrickisWojo #FinkleisEinhorn

[brewcity77]

Just as o-rating is useless without usage, usage is useless without o-rating.

And both are useless without factoring in minutes. That's why Jajuan's numbers last year were fools gold. He had a high ORtg and usage, but did it in only 20% of the team's minutes, most of which were non-conference games.

When a player plays more minutes you get a more accurate picture of what they are. If a guy plays 2 minutes, takes 2 shots, and turns it over once, his usage will be very high. But over 20 minutes, you will get a better picture of what his usage would be in the full flow of the team.

That's why Cubillan was so impressive as a freshman, and rightly noted by bama in another thread as #2 since Wade. His usage may have been low but he played 58% of the minutes and had a great ORtg. The minutes tell you that Cooby's numbers paint a more accurate picture that someone like Jajuan who took a back seat add the season went on.

[MerrittsMustache]

And both are useless without factoring in minutes. That's why Jajuan's numbers last year were fools gold. He had a high ORtg and usage, but did it in only 20% of the team's minutes, most of which were non-conference games.

Just to touch on the "fool's gold" comment...

Last season, JJJ's overall ORtg was 110.4 (2nd on the team). His BE ORtg was 92.4 (8th on the team).

Fool's gold, indeed.

[WarriorInNYC]

I appreciate your contrary posts and spirit TAMU.  Although I find it incredibly "unconventional" when guys try to argue Derrick is better than Cadougan and Buycks.  Find it odd how people discredit the production of both Deonte and JJJ, while trying to champion a guy who produces so little.

I submit to your "group" 6 games JJJ gets 25+ minutes, and what the stats bear out - and it's pretty much crickets.  We had one attempt to try to parse them into how he plays against Top 100 verus teams below 100 - which was pretty much shown to be ill-informed as Arizona State is ranked 51st in Pomeroy rankings.  Gave you guys the ability to pick 6 games from Derrick's entire career at MU that could match JJJ's numbers in the ONLY six games this season he's gotten 25+ minutes - and nobody has anything to offer.

All that people can stand on, is O-Rating, as a metric alone - and anyone being credible and reasonable about O-Rating as a metric in and of itself realizes it is incredibly flawed.

If people disagree that O-Rating isn't flawed as a metric on its own - and that it is the holy grail of Value definition to a team - then those same people need to be of the belief that Jake Thomas last year was a better player than both Todd Mayo and Duane Wilson (this year.)

Ok, you really want 6 games from Derrick's career.  Here goes:

Last year @Arizona State  39 minutes, 5/9, 15 points, 4 rebs, 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Last year neutral site against GW  32 minutes, 4/6, 11 points, 4 rebs, 4 assists, 2 turnovers
Last year @Butler   40 minutes, 6/13, 13 points, 6 rebs, 3 assists, 2 steals, 5 turnovers
Last year @St. Johns   29 minutes, 5/7, 14 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
This year neutral site against Tenn   36 minutes, 4/4, 11 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
This year home against Seton Hall    31 minutes, 4/6, 10 points, 7 rebs, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers

[MerrittsMustache]

Ok, you really want 6 games from Derrick's career.  Here goes:

Last year @Arizona State  39 minutes, 5/9, 15 points, 4 rebs, 7 assists, 0 turnovers
Last year neutral site against GW  32 minutes, 4/6, 11 points, 4 rebs, 4 assists, 2 turnovers
Last year @Butler   40 minutes, 6/13, 13 points, 6 rebs, 3 assists, 2 steals, 5 turnovers
Last year @St. Johns   29 minutes, 5/7, 14 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers
This year neutral site against Tenn   36 minutes, 4/4, 11 points, 2 rebs, 2 assists, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
This year home against Seton Hall    31 minutes, 4/6, 10 points, 7 rebs, 8 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers

That comes out to...

34.5 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 4.2 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.8 stls, 1.8 TO and 62.2% shooting.