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Author Topic: Take It To The Bank  (Read 59875 times)

tower912

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2015, 10:01:24 AM »
My argument is that I am not ready to give up the season.  To me saying this is a transition year is giving up. Maybe that is my old fashioned way of looking at it. My belief is that each primary member of our team has shown several times that they are able to compete well at a high level. Sandy still getting there but showing flashes. So to my way of thinking it is putting the pieces together in a cohesive way.

For example, I really think a guy like Carlino should be used more in the fashion the old Piston teams used Vinnie "The Microwave " Johnson. He would come off the bench and heat it up. If he is not hot he comes out.   Similarly, Derrick has value, but more in my mind as a 10-15 minute of intensity guy, not a 35 minute take the life out of your offense guy. I guarantee if JJJ get the minutes Derrick gets he would be averaging in the high teens scoring. I want to see Duane and JJJ paired together more often and not just because they were head bands. They are both lightning quick and that makes match ups difficult.  I want to see STjr in the game with Luke. He likes to play with his face to the basket up high and I think that works well with Luke. Happy with Juan getting max minutes, as he is showing up every game. Also JJJ is the type of kid who doesn't need a lot of rest. The way he plays he could go 36 minutes easily. So I would prefer that Wojo have our fortunes this year tied to Duane and JJJ, rather than Derrick and Carlino.

I think an experienced game coach could do a lot with our kids. I know there are some that say Buzz couldn't get much out of our kids last year, why expect Wojo to do any better. My contention is that Buzz did a lousy job last year, and in my mind was more of a Lefty Driesall type. A great recruiter but only an average game coach.

I am willing to give Wojo the time to learn on the job.  However, that doesn't mean I am not going to point out where I think he is weak. It is an internet fan board after all. lol.  To be fair I have said that he is doing a great job in terms of recruiting and marketing the program.

Tom Izzo went 16-16 and 17-12 his first two years on the job at Michigan State. I think we have talent to do better than that.





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« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 10:05:26 AM by tower912 »
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2015, 10:12:39 AM »
I mentioned in the offseason that Luke has his limitations and some fans will think he is the second coming, which clearly some of our fans did.  He isn't the second coming, though he will have games from time to time that are very good. He will be a good player this year and potentially very good next year with Ellenson providing additional room for him.  Like many bigs, it's a process and that shoulder has been an issue since his days in Bloomington IMO.

mattyv1908

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2015, 10:46:31 AM »
There is no talent on this roster.  People keep saying this.  There simply isn't.  You want to cut Derrick and Carlino out of the rotation, a rotation that is already down to 7 guys.  So let's cut it down to 5?  Because that would work great.

Steve has played maybe 3 good games in 2 1/2 seasons at Marquette.  JaJuan has played maybe 1 good game against a quality opponent at Marquette.  Duane and Luke are, for all intents and purposes, freshman who are showing inconsistencies.  Juan is an effort guy who is looked upon to be a star.  The roster is beyond thin in numbers, height, and talent.  It is the definition of a transition year.

@Wade-

I think there is a difference between lowered expectations and excusing bad losses.  All teams have expectations that vary greatly depending on circumstances.  Marquette's expectations were low in my book this year.  That still doesn't change the fact that there are two losses on the record so far that Marquette has no excuse to lose including the DePaul game.

Beating Omaha and DePaul makes this team 9-3.  Let's say they split their next 8 finishing up the first half of conference play at 13-7 and would have an outside chance at an at large depending on how the second half of the season went.  I don't think that's too much for any fan to hope for.

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HutchwasClutch

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2015, 10:57:21 AM »
@Wade-

I think there is a difference between lowered expectations and excusing bad losses.  All teams have expectations that vary greatly depending on circumstances.  Marquette's expectations were low in my book this year.  That still doesn't change the fact that there are two losses on the record so far that Marquette has no excuse to lose including the DePaul game.

Beating Omaha and DePaul makes this team 9-3.  Let's say they split their next 8 finishing up the first half of conference play at 13-7 and would have an outside chance at an at large depending on how the second half of the season went.  I don't think that's too much for any fan to hope for.



Every team, any sport, any year, the record at the end of the year doesn't lie.  You are what you are.  We're 8-5 now, our record reflects a very modestly talented team, period.   Some here act like it's MU's birthright to beat DePaul everytime.  Well, for this year anyway, it's highly debatable if we're any better than they are.  Billy Garrett is as good, if not better, than any of our players.  

Reality is we're not that talented to just expect to beat anybody this year, and add in the fact that we're undersized, have absolutely zero depth, and generally inexperienced, and some here scratch their heads at losing to Omaha and DePaul??

Things will be getting better, and probably pretty quickly, but this year, let's just stop pretending we're losing to teams that are supposedly so much worse than we are, or are "bad" losses.  Just get "bad" losses out of your heads for this year, there is no such animal on our schedule.  
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 10:59:44 AM by HutchwasClutch »

mattyv1908

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2015, 11:38:46 AM »
Every team, any sport, any year, the record at the end of the year doesn't lie.  You are what you are.  We're 8-5 now, our record reflects a very modestly talented team, period.   Some here act like it's MU's birthright to beat DePaul everytime.  Well, for this year anyway, it's highly debatable if we're any better than they are.  Billy Garrett is as good, if not better, than any of our players.  

Reality is we're not that talented to just expect to beat anybody this year, and add in the fact that we're undersized, have absolutely zero depth, and generally inexperienced, and some here scratch their heads at losing to Omaha and DePaul??

Things will be getting better, and probably pretty quickly, but this year, let's just stop pretending we're losing to teams that are supposedly so much worse than we are, or are "bad" losses.  Just get "bad" losses out of your heads for this year, there is no such animal on our schedule.  


We'll have to agree to disagree Hutch, and that's ok.

If a coaching change and a couple of personnel defections puts us in the ranks of the sub 150+ schools then we are miles away from being in the upper echelon of college basketball like most on here believe the school to be.

If recruiting ratings coming out of highschool are bogus then why are people optimistic about our highly rated recruits coming in next year?

One of our transfers landed at a school coming off a 28 win season and currently 10-1 this season yet he struggled to find playing time at Marquette this season.  You've had two of our players go for 30 and several more hit the 20 point mark this season.  They may be young, they may be undersized, and they may have a short bench but saying this team doesn't have any talent is rediculous.

Losing to Omaha (305) and DePaul (235) are bad losses any way you look at it, and if they're not then Marquette is not the basketball program that we think it is (even in a down year).
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HutchwasClutch

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2015, 12:07:06 PM »

We'll have to agree to disagree Hutch, and that's ok.

If a coaching change and a couple of personnel defections puts us in the ranks of the sub 150+ schools then we are miles away from being in the upper echelon of college basketball like most on here believe the school to be.

If recruiting ratings coming out of highschool are bogus then why are people optimistic about our highly rated recruits coming in next year?

One of our transfers landed at a school coming off a 28 win season and currently 10-1 this season yet he struggled to find playing time at Marquette this season.  You've had two of our players go for 30 and several more hit the 20 point mark this season.  They may be young, they may be undersized, and they may have a short bench but saying this team doesn't have any talent is rediculous.

Losing to Omaha (305) and DePaul (235) are bad losses any way you look at it, and if they're not then Marquette is not the basketball program that we think it is (even in a down year).

Where did I say the 2014-15 MU roster "doesn't have any talent"?   I didn't.

A "couple" of personnel defections?!?   Three guys have left since Wojo was hired, three more signed for this year got out of their LOI and are at other schools.  

You bring up Burton's transfer to IA St. - he's no longer on the team, his last game was way back on December 6th, are we not talking about MU at the present and the rest of this year?

You cherry pick two good scoring games, OK, so what?  That's proof MU has better talent than their record indicates?  And you throw in about several 20 pt games?  We're supposed to get all excited about 20 pt games, many of which have come against schools that suck?


Your whole response is disjointed and has a lot of words without saying a thing to prove your point.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 12:09:41 PM by HutchwasClutch »

mattyv1908

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2015, 12:22:24 PM »
Reality is we're not that talented to just expect to beat anybody this year 

I believe this is you Hutch.

Again, how can you define losses to the 235th and 305th ranked programs this season as anything other than bad losses?
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HutchwasClutch

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2015, 12:40:10 PM »
I believe this is you Hutch.

Again, how can you define losses to the 235th and 305th ranked programs this season as anything other than bad losses?

We are who we are matty, an 8-5 team, and one that if they're not playing well, are susceptible to a loss at anytime, anywhere.  We barely avoided NJIT at home on top of Omaha and DePaul.

forgetful

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2015, 12:45:44 PM »
@Wade-

I think there is a difference between lowered expectations and excusing bad losses.  All teams have expectations that vary greatly depending on circumstances.  Marquette's expectations were low in my book this year.  That still doesn't change the fact that there are two losses on the record so far that Marquette has no excuse to lose including the DePaul game.

Beating Omaha and DePaul makes this team 9-3.  Let's say they split their next 8 finishing up the first half of conference play at 13-7 and would have an outside chance at an at large depending on how the second half of the season went.  I don't think that's too much for any fan to hope for.



Everything you say is true.  I highlight the bolded though, because the key words are hope for.  You are right, we all hoped for that, but to not expect some losses to teams like Omaha and Depaul with this years squad is unrealistic. 

mattyv1908

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2015, 12:56:16 PM »
Everything you say is true.  I highlight the bolded though, because the key words are hope for.  You are right, we all hoped for that, but to not expect some losses to teams like Omaha and Depaul with this years squad is unrealistic. 

We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country.  We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.

I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games.  I bet Wojo feels the same way.
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mu-rara

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2015, 01:21:31 PM »
My argument is that I am not ready to give up the season.  To me saying this is a transition year is giving up. Maybe that is my old fashioned way of looking at it. My belief is that each primary member of our team has shown several times that they are able to compete well at a high level. Sandy still getting there but showing flashes. So to my way of thinking it is putting the pieces together in a cohesive way.

Similarly, Derrick has value, but more in my mind as a 10-15 minute of intensity guy, not a 35 minute take the life out of your offense guy. I guarantee if JJJ get the minutes Derrick gets he would be averaging in the high teens scoring. I want to see Duane and JJJ paired together more often and not just because they were head bands. They are both lightning quick and that makes match ups difficult.  I want to see STjr in the game with Luke. He likes to play with his face to the basket up high and I think that works well with Luke. Happy with Juan getting max minutes, as he is showing up every game. Also JJJ is the type of kid who doesn't need a lot of rest. The way he plays he could go 36 minutes easily. So I would prefer that Wojo have our fortunes this year tied to Duane and JJJ, rather than Derrick and Carlino.

I think an experienced game coach could do a lot with our kids. I know there are some that say Buzz couldn't get much out of our kids last year, why expect Wojo to do any better. My contention is that Buzz did a lousy job last year, and in my mind was more of a Lefty Driesall type. A great recruiter but only an average game coach.

I am willing to give Wojo the time to learn on the job.  However, that doesn't mean I am not going to point out where I think he is weak. It is an internet fan board after all. lol.  To be fair I have said that he is doing a great job in terms of recruiting and marketing the program.

Tom Izzo went 16-16 and 17-12 his first two years on the job at Michigan State. I think we have talent to do better than that.
Have you watched Wojo on the sideline.  No way is he waiting for next year. 

He only has 8 players.  Derrick and Carlino need to play.  JjJ can play 36 minutes for limited games.  If you play him those minutes consistently it will wear him out. 

Get a grip.  Respect the process.  Are you Dan Snyder?

GGGG

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2015, 03:17:20 PM »
Anybody who can't see what Derrick does on the floor by this point is hopeless.  Today he was very good.  Shot effectively.  6 rebounds, 5 assists, one turnover.

HutchwasClutch

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2015, 03:56:51 PM »
Anybody who can't see what Derrick does on the floor by this point is hopeless.  Today he was very good.  Shot effectively.  6 rebounds, 5 assists, one turnover.

Totally agree with all of this about Derrick.  He has a high basketball IQ, and that means a lot for this young team.

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2015, 04:03:29 PM »
We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country.  We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.

I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games.  I bet Wojo feels the same way.

Maybe you, duanewade and Willie should get together. Sounds like you'd have a lot in common.

brewcity77

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2015, 05:18:17 PM »
We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country.  We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.

I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games.  I bet Wojo feels the same way.

Well of course we should expect to win those two games. Who said we should lose those games?

This team undoubtedly has limitations. Omaha exploited those limitations, DePaul...well, like you said, we gave the game away. There's no excuse for that. Should we beat them? Yes. But the season didn't end when we lost to Omaha and didn't end (though it sure felt like it) when we lost to DePaul. If this team goes 10-8 in conference, they still have a good chance to play in the postseason, possibly the NCAAs, almost certainly the NIT. Considering our short rotation and how pessimistic people have been this season, it's nice to at least view that as a possibility, even if you don't believe it is likely.
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MU82

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2015, 05:29:46 PM »
We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country.  We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.

I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games.  I bet Wojo feels the same way.

Where is NJIT ranked? They beat Michigan State. Where is Eastern Washington ranked? They beat Indiana. I'm guessing fans of the B1G teams expected to win those games.

We are mediocre. That means we probably will win about as many as we lose. We have lost a couple we thought we'd win. I'm guessing we will win a game or two we were expected to lose; maybe we already have -- where are Georgia Tech and Tennessee ranked?

In the end, we will have been mediocre, as any reasonable observer expected.

To me, that's what the talent level, depth and coaching experience suggest we should be.
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MuMark

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2015, 05:44:10 PM »
The Omaha game was lost early in the year when Wojo hadn't tried the zone yet.

 He is a man to man coach...He wanted his team to play man to man defense and it took that game for him to conclude that with this group of players he couldn't do it....certainly not all the time.

So they lost the game......put in the zone as an option and the team has gotten much better on that side of the ball.

With a new coach and a group of players that he didn't recruit and doesn't know well a slow start is to be expected.

I'm just glad they have improved...the ceiling isn't high but I think Wojo is getting about as much as can be exected out of this group.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2018, 07:23:16 PM »
A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.



This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.

wadesworld

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2018, 07:27:09 PM »
This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.

If we get our grad transfer PG we’re on our way.
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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2018, 07:31:57 PM »
This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.

Why you hoopin'?
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Herman Cain

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2018, 07:42:42 PM »
This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.
What are the concrete steps that you think need to be be taken to get you to the yes and soon?
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Floorslapper

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2018, 08:06:47 PM »
If we get our grad transfer PG we’re on our way.

Even though it requires an "if" in Year 5, you think we are approaching the 70s?  Let's just try to get 1 win under Wojo in the NCAA tourney before we start comparing to the Al years (or Buzz years.)

wadesworld

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2018, 08:08:10 PM »
Even though it requires an "if" in Year 5, you think we are approaching the 70s?  Let's just try to get 1 win under Wojo in the NCAA tourney before we start comparing to the Al years (or Buzz years.)

You can compare the Wojo era to whatever era you’d like.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2018, 08:16:42 PM »
What are the concrete steps that you think need to be be taken to get you to the yes and soon?

At the risk of over simplification, I need to see more complete players. We're fun to watch, exciting even, but we have too many guys who do one thing well (or elite even) but have glaring holes elsewhere in their game. Sam was probably the only exception on last year's team, and even he is short on quickness/athleticism. Those 70s teams included guys like Meminger, Chones, Lackey, Bo, McNeil, Luke, Tatum, Butch, etc., etc., etc. Crean had guys like Wade and Wes, Buzz guys like JFB and Jae. Wojo has a ways to go to get us back to where we were under TC. After that, Buzz. Then the 70s. Not impossible, but there's a long way to go. Getting this grad transfer PG would be a nice step, but there would still be miles to travel IMO.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:18:38 PM by Lennys Tap »

Floorslapper

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Re: Take It To The Bank
« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2018, 08:19:22 PM »
You can compare the Wojo era to whatever era you’d like.

Looks about like Mike Deane.  Wojo better recruiter.  Deane a much better coach.  = NIT Program.

 

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