MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: wadesworld on January 01, 2015, 06:22:46 PM
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
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I agree with all of this, but are there people who thought we'd be good this year? I didn't. Are there people who think Wojo has done a bad job? I'm not sure I've seen any.
This roster is a disaster and that's not Wojo's fault. We played as bad a second half yesterday as we have all year. We will win games and so will DePaul.
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
+1000
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I agree with all of this, but are there people who thought we'd be good this year? I didn't. Are there people who think Wojo has done a bad job? I'm not sure I've seen any.
This roster is a disaster and that's not Wojo's fault. We played as bad a second half yesterday as we have all year. We will win games and so will DePaul.
Agreed. Just think some people have been overreacting given that there was never a reason to think we'd be any good this year. Maybe it's a small minority who just happen to post way too much for their own good.
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Are there people who think Wojo has done a bad job? I'm not sure I've seen any.
Have you read the literary works of Willie Warrior and DuaneWade?
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Have you read the literary works of Willie Warrior and DuaneWade?
Written in crayon.
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Written in crayon.
At least Willie can write, Sultan, while all you do is psychobabble---in bubbles.
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Written in crayon.
On wide ruled paper.
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Have you read the literary works of Willie Warrior and DuaneWade?
You don't have them on ignore?
Actually I blame you for actually reading their useless drivel, you should know better.
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Great post, wadesworld. Agree 100%.
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absolutely a great post....thank you for shining light on the more plausible (and glass 2/3rds full) reality.
one question...you say "he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see..." i assume you are referring to Du. W but i've viewed Luuuuke as a Bert "recruit". was Luke bound for MU regardless of the coach or program situation because he was so home/double mint sick?
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absolutely a great post....thank you for shining light on the more plausible (and glass 2/3rds full) reality.
one question...you say "he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see..." i assume you are referring to Du. W but i've viewed Luuuuke as a Bert "recruit". was Luke bound for MU regardless of the coach or program situation because he was so home/double mint sick?
Think he meant Cohen.
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Think he meant Cohen.
Correct. The only player on the team beyond Carlino that Wojo decided was worth a spot was Cohen, and even Cohen committed when Bert was our coach.
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You don't have them on ignore?
Actually I blame you for actually reading their useless drivel, you should know better.
I'm thoroughly against putting people on ignore as a general process. I think everyone usually has something useful to say at some time.
That said, those two are the only ones I have ever put on ignore. Says a lot about their content, or lack there of.
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We also only have 7 players getting playtime. Were going to get run on at the end of games, theres nothing that we can do about it unless Wojo starts giving the Twins playing time.
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Think he meant Cohen.
AH! yesterday's DNP must've put him in my blind spot as the only one from last year's recruiting class to stick.
Sorry if Cohen's absence was covered in another thread but i avoid Scoop like FoxNews.com after a loss. a position which was validated after a quick review of thread topics :-\
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AH! yesterday's DNP must've put him in my blind spot as the only one from last year's recruiting class to stick.
Sorry if Cohen's absence was covered in another thread but i avoid Scoop like FoxNews.com after a loss. a position which was validated after a quick review of thread topics :-\
Yesterday it felt like I was watching CNN and a plane just disappeared.
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Yea, I do think Wojo will get Marquette headed the right direction in the new Big East. They should be able to compete there most years.
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Such a troll.
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
Wojo has demonstrated that he is a good recruiter and certainly has the program in the right direction in that regard. Unfortunately , he has not demonstrated that he is anything more than an average game coach. Also I don't think he understands how to motivate the kids on the team. In addition he has no flexibility. He is going to live or die with Derrick and Carlino. Net result we have a mediocre team. I originally thought we would be a fun team to watch but that is not the case. These kids have no enthusiasm and look like they are playing out the string .
I consistently pointed out all summer long that my biggest concern was Carlino and his impact on team chemistry. Players generally don't like playing with selfish chuckers . Wojo has done a terrible job managing this issue.
Wojo has never been a head coach and it shows.
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Wojo has I've never been a head coach and it shows.
FIFY
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FIFY
dealwithit.gif
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Texas Western, are you serious? Wojo has no flexibility? After opponents went man-to-man for the first couple games, Ohio State goes to a zone...and for the first time, I see a Marquette team that knows how to move the ball against a zone...flexibility. Fast forward to the Orlando tournament...after Omaha's guards blow past MU's guards, MU surprises its opponents by going to a zone...flexibility. MU loses a key player in Burton, but Luke comes in and makes an immediate impact...flexibility. In Luke's first game against Arizona State, other guards are playing extremely well in the first half, so Derrick hardly plays that half...flexibility. North Dakota figures out how to shut Luke down with double- and triple-teams, and the other guys on the court don't space properly...Wojo moves Luke away from the basket, and Derrick suddenly gets player of the game...flexibility. Wojo is working with eight guys, seven of whom Buzz left behind for a lesser job. Last game was clearly disappointing, but how much better than 8-5 did you think this team would be right now?
These kids have no enthusiasm? Have you seen JJJ this year versus last year? Have you seen a minute of Juan's games this year? Has Luke been playing like he has no enthusiasm? How about Duane? The Bradley Center has been near full just once, and half of that crowd was wearing red. Even if you somehow aren't seeing enthusiasm from the team so far, you may want to reserve judgment until the cupcake home games are done.
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Wojo has demonstrated that he is a good recruiter and certainly has the program in the right direction in that regard. Unfortunately , he has not demonstrated that he is anything more than an average game coach. Also I don't think he understands how to motivate the kids on the team. In addition he has no flexibility. He is going to live or die with Derrick and Carlino. Net result we have a mediocre team. I originally thought we would be a fun team to watch but that is not the case. These kids have no enthusiasm and look like they are playing out the string .
"Playing out the string" after one conference game.
Scoop can be so damn f*cking priceless sometimes....
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Wojo has demonstrated that he is a good recruiter and certainly has the program in the right direction in that regard. Unfortunately , he has not demonstrated that he is anything more than an average game coach. Also I don't think he understands how to motivate the kids on the team. In addition he has no flexibility. He is going to live or die with Derrick and Carlino. Net result we have a mediocre team. I originally thought we would be a fun team to watch but that is not the case. These kids have no enthusiasm and look like they are playing out the string .
I consistently pointed out all summer long that my biggest concern was Carlino and his impact on team chemistry. Players generally don't like playing with selfish chuckers . Wojo has done a terrible job managing this issue.
Wojo has never been a head coach and it shows.
Yeah why live or die with Derrick and Carlino when you could just instead cut the rotation down to 5?! Brilliant!
Carlino has shot the ball less than 10 times in all but 5 of our games. He has shot the ball more than less than 15 times in all but 1 of our games, and he scored 38 points in that game. He has more than 3 turnovers in just 2 games this season, and has an assist:turnover ratio of 2:1 (not outstanding, but not awful either). As I said in another thread, Carlino has shown that he is willing to defer to the hot hand when he isn't hot. The problem is, there was no hot hand against DePaul. Somebody had to shoot the ball. Shots just weren't falling. Just one of those games.
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Correct. The only player on the team beyond Carlino that Wojo decided was worth a spot was Cohen, and even Cohen committed when Bert was our coach.
He wanted Shayok bad, but that ship had sailed with Brent.
But I agree with your original post. His teams will be a lot of fun to watch. Watching Heldt and Ellenson on Tuesday made me shake my head at the way Brent viewed recruiting. He would have never taken Heldt, and only had fleeting interest in Henry. But those two guys can play, and they know the game. Once the pieces are in place, MU will be a bitch to gameplan for. Guys at all 5 positions that can step out and shoot it, plus a good deal of size in the frontcourt. Can't wait.
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He wanted Shayok bad, but that ship had sailed with Brent.
But I agree with your original post. His teams will be a lot of fun to watch. Watching Heldt and Ellenson on Tuesday made me shake my head at the way Brent viewed recruiting. He would have never taken Heldt, and only had fleeting interest in Henry. But those two guys can play, and they know the game. Once the pieces are in place, MU will be a bitch to gameplan for. Guys at all 5 positions that can step out and shoot it, plus a good deal of size in the frontcourt. Can't wait.
#Respecttheprocess
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He wanted Shayok bad, but that ship had sailed with Brent.
But I agree with your original post. His teams will be a lot of fun to watch. Watching Heldt and Ellenson on Tuesday made me shake my head at the way Brent viewed recruiting. He would have never taken Heldt, and only had fleeting interest in Henry. But those two guys can play, and they know the game. Once the pieces are in place, MU will be a bitch to gameplan for. Guys at all 5 positions that can step out and shoot it, plus a good deal of size in the frontcourt. Can't wait.
The way Buzz viewed recruiting got MU to an E8 and a BE conference championship. Different priorities no doubt, but you can win all sorts of ways.
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The way Buzz viewed recruiting got MU to an E8 and a BE conference championship. Different priorities no doubt, but you can win all sorts of ways.
Very true. Maybe I should have said the way he recruited HS players. Those results were far more mixed once JUCOs weren't a real option.
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The way Buzz viewed recruiting got MU to an E8 and a BE conference championship. Different priorities no doubt, but you can win all sorts of ways.
I agree but did you ever feel with those guys we were a legit threat for the title? With all the JUCO AAs and POYs I still didn't see us ever getting to that level (not saying I wasn't overjoyed by our success) but at least now I could see us getting to that level in time with good player development.
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I agree but did you ever feel with those guys we were a legit threat for the title? With all the JUCO AAs and POYs I still didn't see us ever getting to that level (not saying I wasn't overjoyed by our success) but at least now I could see us getting to that level in time with good player development.
I pretty much view being in the final 8 and winning a major conference championship as a "legit threat for a title." And rankings, optimism, and potential are nice, but that's a long way from on-court success.
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
I agree with much of this. I did not expect us to be good this year and I very much like what I've seen from Wojo as a coach, recruiter and representative of the university. Can he take our program to heights not seen since the 70s? That's a tall order, a steep hill to climb - but he's off to a very solid start.
It's not his fault that we shot it so poorly and turned it over so much down the stretch against DePaul. However, when we blow a 13 point lead in the final 11 minutes against a very weak opponent it's frustrating. It's even more frustrating when our team looks disorganized and back on their heels doing it. DePaul didn't really take the game or throw in a bunch of tough/desperation shots. In the last 11 minutes they made 1 of 4 3s, 1 mid range 2, 5 of 7 lay ups and 7 of 10 free throws and had 3 TOs. Meanwhile, we made 3 of 4 lay ups, 3 of 4 free throws, 0 of 8 3s and had 6 TOs. I think it's fair to ask the coaching staff why, with the game in our control, WE were the team launching 3s while our opponents shot lay ups and free throws. Shouldn't WE be the team attacking the basket and going to the line while we force our opponents to shoot desperation 3s to get back in the game? I'm relaxed and have no expectations for this year. I'm pretty much all in on Wojo. But I think the players and the coaches threw an easy W away on Wednesday.
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I pretty much view being in the final 8 and winning a major conference championship as a "legit threat for a title." And rankings, optimism, and potential are nice, but that's a long way from on-court success.
While yes the elite 8 was great let's not pretend like we soared to it. Last second shot against Davidson, nearly a rotnie Clark repeat against butler then a beat down against Miami (that was awesome) but remember them ranking the sweet 16 teams? We were 15 ranking the elite 8 teams we were 8. I kinda felt like Xavier or Gonzaga in their respective elite 8 years they weren't really a threat to win it.
Now you're right rankings and on court success are worlds apart from eachother. I just think based on what we have and are getting we have potential for a higher ceiling than before.
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
This board is most definitely schizophrenic. After the Omaha game the world was coming to an end, yet after Arizona St. we're a threat to win 20 games and make the tournament. Now after Wednesday there are people wondering if we can beat any of the teams in the conference. It's both funny and sad. This year's team is part of a work in progress, both in terms of the coaches and the players. Just let it play out and keep the faith that the program is on the upswing.
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However, when we blow a 13 point lead in the final 11 minutes against a very weak opponent it's frustrating. It's even more frustrating when our team looks disorganized and back on their heels doing it. DePaul didn't really take the game or throw in a bunch of tough/desperation shots.
This was really difficult to watch. As DePaul clawed their way back in, we just looked out of sorts and on our heels. I mean, we controlled the game for 28 minutes, had it well in hand, then suddenly just went into a shell. Where was the confidence we had exuded building the lead in the first place? Poor defensive changes, too many threes, we played like we were getting taken behind the woodshed when most of the game we had them pinned there. Made very little sense and was really frustrating to see.
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Wojo has demonstrated that he is a good recruiter and certainly has the program in the right direction in that regard. Unfortunately , he has not demonstrated that he is anything more than an average game coach. Also I don't think he understands how to motivate the kids on the team. In addition he has no flexibility. He is going to live or die with Derrick and Carlino. Net result we have a mediocre team. I originally thought we would be a fun team to watch but that is not the case. These kids have no enthusiasm and look like they are playing out the string .
I consistently pointed out all summer long that my biggest concern was Carlino and his impact on team chemistry. Players generally don't like playing with selfish chuckers . Wojo has done a terrible job managing this issue.
And you can tell this based on a 8-4 record and ONE conference game, I think you should use another compass.
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This is what I want...
I want to win this year...not have a "play out the year and we'll be good next year" attitude.
I want Wojo to know he's learning how to coach and respect the players he has...not be a "can't wait until I get rid of all those Buzz rejects and finally own this team" kind of ego-driven guy. I'm thinking he's the first guy.
I want to hope on a 10-11+ win year and get to the Tournament....not be a realist and say 6-7 wins and everybody who says otherwise is a "pie-in-the-sky" idiot.
I want to keep hoping when we're down by 10 to Villanova with 4 minutes left....rather than cursing Derrick Wilson for bricking his last two free-throws.
I want to be a fan this year and next year even though my son would have graduated this May.
If I can't have all that...then I want out of MUScoop because otherwise it would be a dreary place...
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. Some have said Wojo must think he can just show up and the Duke connection will just lead to MU becoming Duke. You can put all your money on 2 things. 1) Wojo isn't relying on any sort of past to get him to where he'd like to be in the future. 2) In 2 seasons we'll be much closer to Duke than we are to what we saw last season and what we'll see the rest of this season.
Take this season for what it is. A transition year. Wojo looks for different things in a player than what Bert did. Doesn't make 1 better than the other. Just different. There are different ways to win. You could tell from day 1 that a guy like Burton wasn't going to fly with Wojo if he didn't change his style of play. From the coming out and clearly being unhappy with the performance at Madness to the disgusted look on his face when Burton missed a crowd pleasing dunk while up about 50 vs. Wisconsin Lutheran College you can tell Wojo demands fundamental play from everyone regardless of whether it's a pickup game or a National Championship game. I, for one, am perfectly fine with that. Right now he has 1 player who Bert recruited that Wojo decided he could mold into a player he would like to see and a 1 year rental. Wojo chose more or less none of the players on this roster. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This year will be more frustrating than any in a while. But after this we will see the transformation of a program. And it's going to be a joy.
R-E-L-A-X
Agreed--going into the season, I believed that this would be an up-and-down year. We'd lose a few games we shouldn't, and maybe win a few games we shouldn't. I think the relative success of Orlando tourney and the glittering debut of Luke Fischer against ASU (before anyone knew what he was capable of) and the cupcakes made us all hope that the sunrise was coming sooner than we all originally expected. This loss to DePaul just helped reaffirm my original expectations for this season, so while momentarily disheartening, not the end of the world.
The reality is that with a short bench (#s) and team (height), we were going to struggle to eek out a tourney bid this season. In some ways, I feel like this loss helps bring expectations back down, and to learn to just enjoy this season for what it is--a growing year, both for the players and Wojo himself.
Important to remember that Wojo is, in some ways, a freshman himself, and will have some growing pains to go through. But, as we like to remember, the best part about freshman is that they become sophomores--it'll happen.
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I want to win this year...not have a "play out the year and we'll be good next year" attitude.
This is where I am at. There is no reason we have to declare this a transition year. We have enough talent, Wojo just has to learn how to use it properly.
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I agree with much of this. I did not expect us to be good this year and I very much like what I've seen from Wojo as a coach, recruiter and representative of the university. Can he take our program to heights not seen since the 70s? That's a tall order, a steep hill to climb - but he's off to a very solid start.
It's not his fault that we shot it so poorly and turned it over so much down the stretch against DePaul. However, when we blow a 13 point lead in the final 11 minutes against a very weak opponent it's frustrating. It's even more frustrating when our team looks disorganized and back on their heels doing it. DePaul didn't really take the game or throw in a bunch of tough/desperation shots. In the last 11 minutes they made 1 of 4 3s, 1 mid range 2, 5 of 7 lay ups and 7 of 10 free throws and had 3 TOs. Meanwhile, we made 3 of 4 lay ups, 3 of 4 free throws, 0 of 8 3s and had 6 TOs. I think it's fair to ask the coaching staff why, with the game in our control, WE were the team launching 3s while our opponents shot lay ups and free throws. Shouldn't WE be the team attacking the basket and going to the line while we force our opponents to shoot desperation 3s to get back in the game? I'm relaxed and have no expectations for this year. I'm pretty much all in on Wojo. But I think the players and the coaches threw an easy W away on Wednesday.
Bingo. When your team isn't hitting from the perimeter but you have built an advantage, take it to the hoop. MU had the match-up on the inside and didn't exploit its hand. Double and triple teaming on Luke opened up the perimeter for sure, but it also opened up driving lanes that should have been exploited to win the war of attrition.
Don't mind losing a Big East game even to DePaul, but if the vets aren't getting it done, would rather lose with our future in the game. Playing it safe with veterans at the end is a rerun from Bert's last year. Been there, done that.
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I agree but did you ever feel with those guys we were a legit threat for the title? With all the JUCO AAs and POYs I still didn't see us ever getting to that level (not saying I wasn't overjoyed by our success) but at least now I could see us getting to that level in time with good player development.
I thought Marquette had a real big chance at a championship with Crowder and DJO as seniors. Until Otule went down against Washington.
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TXWest, I don't mean to keep going after your posts, but this is the argument I just don't understand. I've seen a few people write that the talent is there. Let's take a look at the eight guys we have.
1. Derrick Wilson: After thousands of pages devoted to the topic, no comments are needed.
2. Duane Wilson: I agree on the talent...but like all Freshman, consistency isn't there yet...though it's getting there.
3. Matt Carlino: BYU fans said it: he'll win some for you and lose some for you. Some days he hits everything, even with a man in his face. Other days, DePaul happens.
4. JuJuan Johnson: Talent is starting to come through over the last five games, but he's still a work in progress. After seemingly no development under Buzz, I love the progress this year...but it takes time.
5. Juan Anderson: Seems to be playing to his potential...is being used well this year.
6. Sandy Cohen: Bright future, but even he acknowledged that the transition has been tough...see yesterday's JS article.
7. Steve Taylor Jr.: He showed flashes as a Freshman, but injuries and playing out of position (out of necessity) have not helped. DePaul was a great example...with Luke in foul trouble, Steve was back at the 5.
8. Luke Fischer: Yes, I agree about the talent. However, the last three games have demonstrated the importance of on-the-court experience. He has the skillset, but it will take a few games (for him and his teammates) to adjust to double-teams. He'll get it, but he's only seen double-teams for three games so far.
Sum it up. We have three guys getting their first meaningful college hoops minutes. Of the remaining five guys, one is playing out of position (we've probably been spoiled by Lazar, Jimmy and Jae in the past). Two are seniors playing the best basketball of their careers, even if the ceiling isn't as high as some would like. One is playing exactly as advertised by fans at his last school (and has single-handedly given us a win), and one seems to be flourishing in recent games after a disappointing Freshman year.
This is a transition year. That doesn't mean we can't have success, but there is a clear transition happening.
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This is where I am at. There is no reason we have to declare this a transition year. We have enough talent, Wojo just has to learn how to use it properly.
I disagree with this. I think Wojo has some growing pains, but we are nominally playing 7 players right now and one of them is Derrick Wilson. Do you know of any teams with 7 players on the roster with only 1 taller than 6'7" that can win now against Nova and Georgetown, etc? Not to mention while learning a new system and staff?
I just don't think there is any reason to think this team can win now and whats more, win what? An outside shot at the tournament? Let Wojo and the players learn from this season, establish a firm foundation for many successful years to come.
#respecttheprocess
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This is where I am at. There is no reason we have to declare this a transition year. We have enough talent, Wojo just has to learn how to use it properly.
I don't think anyone declares anything. Wojo will do what he feels is right to win this year. Next year he will do the same. That being said, we have talent on this team, but it lacks experience...and vice versa. I think the expectations that we will make the tournament this year are misguided. I said NIT at the beginning of the year, and I see no reason yet why to adjust that either way.
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I disagree with this. I think Wojo has some growing pains, but we are nominally playing 7 players right now and one of them is Derrick Wilson. Do you know of any teams with 7 players on the roster with only 1 taller than 6'7" that can win now against Nova and Georgetown, etc? Not to mention while learning a new system and staff?
I just don't think there is any reason to think this team can win now and whats more, win what? An outside shot at the tournament? Let Wojo and the players learn from this season, establish a firm foundation for many successful years to come.
#respecttheprocess
I agree with you on all points. I just don't think we should get too excited about next season as well. Let's face it. We'll have one senior, 3 juniors, 2 sophs and 4 freshman for next year as of now. I think Henry will be the only frosh ready to play and even he will have to adjust to playing at the next level.
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I don't think anyone declares anything. Wojo will do what he feels is right to win this year. Next year he will do the same. That being said, we have talent on this team, but it lacks experience...and vice versa. I think the expectations that we will make the tournament this year are misguided. I said NIT at the beginning of the year, and I see no reason yet why to adjust that either way.
I'd be very happy with an NIT appearance and I think games like that will only help the development, hell in the context of this season I might accept a CBI bid. I know the BE is a much better conference this year, but MU went 9-9 last year and missed the NIT. 8-9 wins in conference this year will be tough.
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I'd be very happy with an NIT appearance and I think games like that will only help the development, hell in the context of this season I might accept a CBI bid. I know the BE is a much better conference this year, but MU went 9-9 last year and missed the NIT. 8-9 wins in conference this year will be tough.
I just think they are better than they played Wednesday. I think this is going to be one of those years that good shooting means we win games we shouldn't...and vice versa.
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TXWest, I don't mean to keep going after your posts, but this is the argument I just don't understand. I've seen a few people write that the talent is there. Let's take a look at the eight guys we have.
1. Derrick Wilson: After thousands of pages devoted to the topic, no comments are needed.
2. Duane Wilson: I agree on the talent...but like all Freshman, consistency isn't there yet...though it's getting there.
3. Matt Carlino: BYU fans said it: he'll win some for you and lose some for you. Some days he hits everything, even with a man in his face. Other days, DePaul happens.
4. JuJuan Johnson: Talent is starting to come through over the last five games, but he's still a work in progress. After seemingly no development under Buzz, I love the progress this year...but it takes time.
5. Juan Anderson: Seems to be playing to his potential...is being used well this year.
6. Sandy Cohen: Bright future, but even he acknowledged that the transition has been tough...see yesterday's JS article.
7. Steve Taylor Jr.: He showed flashes as a Freshman, but injuries and playing out of position (out of necessity) have not helped. DePaul was a great example...with Luke in foul trouble, Steve was back at the 5.
8. Luke Fischer: Yes, I agree about the talent. However, the last three games have demonstrated the importance of on-the-court experience. He has the skillset, but it will take a few games (for him and his teammates) to adjust to double-teams. He'll get it, but he's only seen double-teams for three games so far.
Sum it up. We have three guys getting their first meaningful college hoops minutes. Of the remaining five guys, one is playing out of position (we've probably been spoiled by Lazar, Jimmy and Jae in the past). Two are seniors playing the best basketball of their careers, even if the ceiling isn't as high as some would like. One is playing exactly as advertised by fans at his last school (and has single-handedly given us a win), and one seems to be flourishing in recent games after a disappointing Freshman year.
This is a transition year. That doesn't mean we can't have success, but there is a clear transition happening.
My argument is that I am not ready to give up the season. To me saying this is a transition year is giving up. Maybe that is my old fashioned way of looking at it. My belief is that each primary member of our team has shown several times that they are able to compete well at a high level. Sandy still getting there but showing flashes. So to my way of thinking it is putting the pieces together in a cohesive way.
For example, I really think a guy like Carlino should be used more in the fashion the old Piston teams used Vinnie "The Microwave " Johnson. He would come off the bench and heat it up. If he is not hot he comes out. Similarly, Derrick has value, but more in my mind as a 10-15 minute of intensity guy, not a 35 minute take the life out of your offense guy. I guarantee if JJJ get the minutes Derrick gets he would be averaging in the high teens scoring. I want to see Duane and JJJ paired together more often and not just because they were head bands. They are both lightning quick and that makes match ups difficult. I want to see STjr in the game with Luke. He likes to play with his face to the basket up high and I think that works well with Luke. Happy with Juan getting max minutes, as he is showing up every game. Also JJJ is the type of kid who doesn't need a lot of rest. The way he plays he could go 36 minutes easily. So I would prefer that Wojo have our fortunes this year tied to Duane and JJJ, rather than Derrick and Carlino.
I think an experienced game coach could do a lot with our kids. I know there are some that say Buzz couldn't get much out of our kids last year, why expect Wojo to do any better. My contention is that Buzz did a lousy job last year, and in my mind was more of a Lefty Driesall type. A great recruiter but only an average game coach.
I am willing to give Wojo the time to learn on the job. However, that doesn't mean I am not going to point out where I think he is weak. It is an internet fan board after all. lol. To be fair I have said that he is doing a great job in terms of recruiting and marketing the program.
Tom Izzo went 16-16 and 17-12 his first two years on the job at Michigan State. I think we have talent to do better than that.
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My argument is that I am not ready to give up the season. To me saying this is a transition year is giving up. Maybe that is my old fashioned way of looking at it. My belief is that each primary member of our team has shown several times that they are able to compete well at a high level. Sandy still getting there but showing flashes. So to my way of thinking it is putting the pieces together in a cohesive way.
For example, I really think a guy like Carlino should be used more in the fashion the old Piston teams used Vinnie "The Microwave " Johnson. He would come off the bench and heat it up. If he is not hot he comes out. Similarly, Derrick has value, but more in my mind as a 10-15 minute of intensity guy, not a 35 minute take the life out of your offense guy. I guarantee if JJJ get the minutes Derrick gets he would be averaging in the high teens scoring. I want to see Duane and JJJ paired together more often and not just because they were head bands. They are both lightning quick and that makes match ups difficult. I want to see STjr in the game with Luke. He likes to play with his face to the basket up high and I think that works well with Luke. Happy with Juan getting max minutes, as he is showing up every game. Also JJJ is the type of kid who doesn't need a lot of rest. The way he plays he could go 36 minutes easily. So I would prefer that Wojo have our fortunes this year tied to Duane and JJJ, rather than Derrick and Carlino.
I think an experienced game coach could do a lot with our kids. I know there are some that say Buzz couldn't get much out of our kids last year, why expect Wojo to do any better. My contention is that Buzz did a lousy job last year, and in my mind was more of a Lefty Driesall type. A great recruiter but only an average game coach.
I am willing to give Wojo the time to learn on the job. However, that doesn't mean I am not going to point out where I think he is weak. It is an internet fan board after all. lol. To be fair I have said that he is doing a great job in terms of recruiting and marketing the program.
Tom Izzo went 16-16 and 17-12 his first two years on the job at Michigan State. I think we have talent to do better than that.
There is no talent on this roster. People keep saying this. There simply isn't. You want to cut Derrick and Carlino out of the rotation, a rotation that is already down to 7 guys. So let's cut it down to 5? Because that would work great.
Steve has played maybe 3 good games in 2 1/2 seasons at Marquette. JaJuan has played maybe 1 good game against a quality opponent at Marquette. Duane and Luke are, for all intents and purposes, freshman who are showing inconsistencies. Juan is an effort guy who is looked upon to be a star. The roster is beyond thin in numbers, height, and talent. It is the definition of a transition year.
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There is no talent on this roster. People keep saying this. There simply isn't. You want to cut Derrick and Carlino out of the rotation, a rotation that is already down to 7 guys. So let's cut it down to 5? Because that would work great.
Steve has played maybe 3 good games in 2 1/2 seasons at Marquette. JaJuan has played maybe 1 good game against a quality opponent at Marquette. Duane and Luke are, for all intents and purposes, freshman who are showing inconsistencies. Juan is an effort guy who is looked upon to be a star. The roster is beyond thin in numbers, height, and talent. It is the definition of a transition year.
I won't say "no" talent, but it is pretty hard to argue any of the other points you make.
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My argument is that I am not ready to give up the season. To me saying this is a transition year is giving up. Maybe that is my old fashioned way of looking at it. My belief is that each primary member of our team has shown several times that they are able to compete well at a high level. Sandy still getting there but showing flashes. So to my way of thinking it is putting the pieces together in a cohesive way.
For example, I really think a guy like Carlino should be used more in the fashion the old Piston teams used Vinnie "The Microwave " Johnson. He would come off the bench and heat it up. If he is not hot he comes out. Similarly, Derrick has value, but more in my mind as a 10-15 minute of intensity guy, not a 35 minute take the life out of your offense guy. I guarantee if JJJ get the minutes Derrick gets he would be averaging in the high teens scoring. I want to see Duane and JJJ paired together more often and not just because they were head bands. They are both lightning quick and that makes match ups difficult. I want to see STjr in the game with Luke. He likes to play with his face to the basket up high and I think that works well with Luke. Happy with Juan getting max minutes, as he is showing up every game. Also JJJ is the type of kid who doesn't need a lot of rest. The way he plays he could go 36 minutes easily. So I would prefer that Wojo have our fortunes this year tied to Duane and JJJ, rather than Derrick and Carlino.
I think an experienced game coach could do a lot with our kids. I know there are some that say Buzz couldn't get much out of our kids last year, why expect Wojo to do any better. My contention is that Buzz did a lousy job last year, and in my mind was more of a Lefty Driesall type. A great recruiter but only an average game coach.
I am willing to give Wojo the time to learn on the job. However, that doesn't mean I am not going to point out where I think he is weak. It is an internet fan board after all. lol. To be fair I have said that he is doing a great job in terms of recruiting and marketing the program.
Tom Izzo went 16-16 and 17-12 his first two years on the job at Michigan State. I think we have talent to do better than that.
nm
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I mentioned in the offseason that Luke has his limitations and some fans will think he is the second coming, which clearly some of our fans did. He isn't the second coming, though he will have games from time to time that are very good. He will be a good player this year and potentially very good next year with Ellenson providing additional room for him. Like many bigs, it's a process and that shoulder has been an issue since his days in Bloomington IMO.
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There is no talent on this roster. People keep saying this. There simply isn't. You want to cut Derrick and Carlino out of the rotation, a rotation that is already down to 7 guys. So let's cut it down to 5? Because that would work great.
Steve has played maybe 3 good games in 2 1/2 seasons at Marquette. JaJuan has played maybe 1 good game against a quality opponent at Marquette. Duane and Luke are, for all intents and purposes, freshman who are showing inconsistencies. Juan is an effort guy who is looked upon to be a star. The roster is beyond thin in numbers, height, and talent. It is the definition of a transition year.
@Wade-
I think there is a difference between lowered expectations and excusing bad losses. All teams have expectations that vary greatly depending on circumstances. Marquette's expectations were low in my book this year. That still doesn't change the fact that there are two losses on the record so far that Marquette has no excuse to lose including the DePaul game.
Beating Omaha and DePaul makes this team 9-3. Let's say they split their next 8 finishing up the first half of conference play at 13-7 and would have an outside chance at an at large depending on how the second half of the season went. I don't think that's too much for any fan to hope for.
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@Wade-
I think there is a difference between lowered expectations and excusing bad losses. All teams have expectations that vary greatly depending on circumstances. Marquette's expectations were low in my book this year. That still doesn't change the fact that there are two losses on the record so far that Marquette has no excuse to lose including the DePaul game.
Beating Omaha and DePaul makes this team 9-3. Let's say they split their next 8 finishing up the first half of conference play at 13-7 and would have an outside chance at an at large depending on how the second half of the season went. I don't think that's too much for any fan to hope for.
Every team, any sport, any year, the record at the end of the year doesn't lie. You are what you are. We're 8-5 now, our record reflects a very modestly talented team, period. Some here act like it's MU's birthright to beat DePaul everytime. Well, for this year anyway, it's highly debatable if we're any better than they are. Billy Garrett is as good, if not better, than any of our players.
Reality is we're not that talented to just expect to beat anybody this year, and add in the fact that we're undersized, have absolutely zero depth, and generally inexperienced, and some here scratch their heads at losing to Omaha and DePaul??
Things will be getting better, and probably pretty quickly, but this year, let's just stop pretending we're losing to teams that are supposedly so much worse than we are, or are "bad" losses. Just get "bad" losses out of your heads for this year, there is no such animal on our schedule.
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Every team, any sport, any year, the record at the end of the year doesn't lie. You are what you are. We're 8-5 now, our record reflects a very modestly talented team, period. Some here act like it's MU's birthright to beat DePaul everytime. Well, for this year anyway, it's highly debatable if we're any better than they are. Billy Garrett is as good, if not better, than any of our players.
Reality is we're not that talented to just expect to beat anybody this year, and add in the fact that we're undersized, have absolutely zero depth, and generally inexperienced, and some here scratch their heads at losing to Omaha and DePaul??
Things will be getting better, and probably pretty quickly, but this year, let's just stop pretending we're losing to teams that are supposedly so much worse than we are, or are "bad" losses. Just get "bad" losses out of your heads for this year, there is no such animal on our schedule.
We'll have to agree to disagree Hutch, and that's ok.
If a coaching change and a couple of personnel defections puts us in the ranks of the sub 150+ schools then we are miles away from being in the upper echelon of college basketball like most on here believe the school to be.
If recruiting ratings coming out of highschool are bogus then why are people optimistic about our highly rated recruits coming in next year?
One of our transfers landed at a school coming off a 28 win season and currently 10-1 this season yet he struggled to find playing time at Marquette this season. You've had two of our players go for 30 and several more hit the 20 point mark this season. They may be young, they may be undersized, and they may have a short bench but saying this team doesn't have any talent is rediculous.
Losing to Omaha (305) and DePaul (235) are bad losses any way you look at it, and if they're not then Marquette is not the basketball program that we think it is (even in a down year).
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We'll have to agree to disagree Hutch, and that's ok.
If a coaching change and a couple of personnel defections puts us in the ranks of the sub 150+ schools then we are miles away from being in the upper echelon of college basketball like most on here believe the school to be.
If recruiting ratings coming out of highschool are bogus then why are people optimistic about our highly rated recruits coming in next year?
One of our transfers landed at a school coming off a 28 win season and currently 10-1 this season yet he struggled to find playing time at Marquette this season. You've had two of our players go for 30 and several more hit the 20 point mark this season. They may be young, they may be undersized, and they may have a short bench but saying this team doesn't have any talent is rediculous.
Losing to Omaha (305) and DePaul (235) are bad losses any way you look at it, and if they're not then Marquette is not the basketball program that we think it is (even in a down year).
Where did I say the 2014-15 MU roster "doesn't have any talent"? I didn't.
A "couple" of personnel defections?!? Three guys have left since Wojo was hired, three more signed for this year got out of their LOI and are at other schools.
You bring up Burton's transfer to IA St. - he's no longer on the team, his last game was way back on December 6th, are we not talking about MU at the present and the rest of this year?
You cherry pick two good scoring games, OK, so what? That's proof MU has better talent than their record indicates? And you throw in about several 20 pt games? We're supposed to get all excited about 20 pt games, many of which have come against schools that suck?
Your whole response is disjointed and has a lot of words without saying a thing to prove your point.
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Reality is we're not that talented to just expect to beat anybody this year
I believe this is you Hutch.
Again, how can you define losses to the 235th and 305th ranked programs this season as anything other than bad losses?
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I believe this is you Hutch.
Again, how can you define losses to the 235th and 305th ranked programs this season as anything other than bad losses?
We are who we are matty, an 8-5 team, and one that if they're not playing well, are susceptible to a loss at anytime, anywhere. We barely avoided NJIT at home on top of Omaha and DePaul.
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@Wade-
I think there is a difference between lowered expectations and excusing bad losses. All teams have expectations that vary greatly depending on circumstances. Marquette's expectations were low in my book this year. That still doesn't change the fact that there are two losses on the record so far that Marquette has no excuse to lose including the DePaul game.
Beating Omaha and DePaul makes this team 9-3. Let's say they split their next 8 finishing up the first half of conference play at 13-7 and would have an outside chance at an at large depending on how the second half of the season went. I don't think that's too much for any fan to hope for.
Everything you say is true. I highlight the bolded though, because the key words are hope for. You are right, we all hoped for that, but to not expect some losses to teams like Omaha and Depaul with this years squad is unrealistic.
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Everything you say is true. I highlight the bolded though, because the key words are hope for. You are right, we all hoped for that, but to not expect some losses to teams like Omaha and Depaul with this years squad is unrealistic.
We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country. We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.
I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games. I bet Wojo feels the same way.
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My argument is that I am not ready to give up the season. To me saying this is a transition year is giving up. Maybe that is my old fashioned way of looking at it. My belief is that each primary member of our team has shown several times that they are able to compete well at a high level. Sandy still getting there but showing flashes. So to my way of thinking it is putting the pieces together in a cohesive way.
Similarly, Derrick has value, but more in my mind as a 10-15 minute of intensity guy, not a 35 minute take the life out of your offense guy. I guarantee if JJJ get the minutes Derrick gets he would be averaging in the high teens scoring. I want to see Duane and JJJ paired together more often and not just because they were head bands. They are both lightning quick and that makes match ups difficult. I want to see STjr in the game with Luke. He likes to play with his face to the basket up high and I think that works well with Luke. Happy with Juan getting max minutes, as he is showing up every game. Also JJJ is the type of kid who doesn't need a lot of rest. The way he plays he could go 36 minutes easily. So I would prefer that Wojo have our fortunes this year tied to Duane and JJJ, rather than Derrick and Carlino.
I think an experienced game coach could do a lot with our kids. I know there are some that say Buzz couldn't get much out of our kids last year, why expect Wojo to do any better. My contention is that Buzz did a lousy job last year, and in my mind was more of a Lefty Driesall type. A great recruiter but only an average game coach.
I am willing to give Wojo the time to learn on the job. However, that doesn't mean I am not going to point out where I think he is weak. It is an internet fan board after all. lol. To be fair I have said that he is doing a great job in terms of recruiting and marketing the program.
Tom Izzo went 16-16 and 17-12 his first two years on the job at Michigan State. I think we have talent to do better than that.
Have you watched Wojo on the sideline. No way is he waiting for next year.
He only has 8 players. Derrick and Carlino need to play. JjJ can play 36 minutes for limited games. If you play him those minutes consistently it will wear him out.
Get a grip. Respect the process. Are you Dan Snyder?
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Anybody who can't see what Derrick does on the floor by this point is hopeless. Today he was very good. Shot effectively. 6 rebounds, 5 assists, one turnover.
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Anybody who can't see what Derrick does on the floor by this point is hopeless. Today he was very good. Shot effectively. 6 rebounds, 5 assists, one turnover.
Totally agree with all of this about Derrick. He has a high basketball IQ, and that means a lot for this young team.
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We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country. We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.
I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games. I bet Wojo feels the same way.
Maybe you, duanewade and Willie should get together. Sounds like you'd have a lot in common.
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We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country. We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.
I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games. I bet Wojo feels the same way.
Well of course we should expect to win those two games. Who said we should lose those games?
This team undoubtedly has limitations. Omaha exploited those limitations, DePaul...well, like you said, we gave the game away. There's no excuse for that. Should we beat them? Yes. But the season didn't end when we lost to Omaha and didn't end (though it sure felt like it) when we lost to DePaul. If this team goes 10-8 in conference, they still have a good chance to play in the postseason, possibly the NCAAs, almost certainly the NIT. Considering our short rotation and how pessimistic people have been this season, it's nice to at least view that as a possibility, even if you don't believe it is likely.
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We lost at home to the 305th ranked team in the country. We coughed up a 13 point lead to the 235th ranked team in the country not because DePaul made plays but rather because we gave the game away.
I don't think it's unrealistic of anyone to expect to win those two games. I bet Wojo feels the same way.
Where is NJIT ranked? They beat Michigan State. Where is Eastern Washington ranked? They beat Indiana. I'm guessing fans of the B1G teams expected to win those games.
We are mediocre. That means we probably will win about as many as we lose. We have lost a couple we thought we'd win. I'm guessing we will win a game or two we were expected to lose; maybe we already have -- where are Georgia Tech and Tennessee ranked?
In the end, we will have been mediocre, as any reasonable observer expected.
To me, that's what the talent level, depth and coaching experience suggest we should be.
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The Omaha game was lost early in the year when Wojo hadn't tried the zone yet.
He is a man to man coach...He wanted his team to play man to man defense and it took that game for him to conclude that with this group of players he couldn't do it....certainly not all the time.
So they lost the game......put in the zone as an option and the team has gotten much better on that side of the ball.
With a new coach and a group of players that he didn't recruit and doesn't know well a slow start is to be expected.
I'm just glad they have improved...the ceiling isn't high but I think Wojo is getting about as much as can be exected out of this group.
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A lot of silly posters around here crying about where we're at as a program and questioning Wojo's coaching. I have heard from multiple people the sentiment of "just wait until he had his players in and he'll have this program where it hasn't been since the 70s." Maybe it's just Duke favoritism, but I have a feeling these people will be proven right. He has a vision and his first recruiting class shows he also has a plan.
This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.
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This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.
If we get our grad transfer PG we’re on our way.
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This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.
Why you hoopin'?
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This was 3 years, 4 months ago. Next year will be Wojo's second with a roster of all of his own players. Pretty obvious that the program isn't "where it hasn't been since the 70s" yet. Will it get there and when? Those are the $64,000 questions. I want very much to be in the "yes" and "soon" camp but I'm a far cry from there right now.
What are the concrete steps that you think need to be be taken to get you to the yes and soon?
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If we get our grad transfer PG we’re on our way.
Even though it requires an "if" in Year 5, you think we are approaching the 70s? Let's just try to get 1 win under Wojo in the NCAA tourney before we start comparing to the Al years (or Buzz years.)
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Even though it requires an "if" in Year 5, you think we are approaching the 70s? Let's just try to get 1 win under Wojo in the NCAA tourney before we start comparing to the Al years (or Buzz years.)
You can compare the Wojo era to whatever era you’d like.
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What are the concrete steps that you think need to be be taken to get you to the yes and soon?
At the risk of over simplification, I need to see more complete players. We're fun to watch, exciting even, but we have too many guys who do one thing well (or elite even) but have glaring holes elsewhere in their game. Sam was probably the only exception on last year's team, and even he is short on quickness/athleticism. Those 70s teams included guys like Meminger, Chones, Lackey, Bo, McNeil, Luke, Tatum, Butch, etc., etc., etc. Crean had guys like Wade and Wes, Buzz guys like JFB and Jae. Wojo has a ways to go to get us back to where we were under TC. After that, Buzz. Then the 70s. Not impossible, but there's a long way to go. Getting this grad transfer PG would be a nice step, but there would still be miles to travel IMO.
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You can compare the Wojo era to whatever era you’d like.
Looks about like Mike Deane. Wojo better recruiter. Deane a much better coach. = NIT Program.
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At the risk of over simplification, I need to see more complete players. We're fun to watch, exciting even, but we have too many guys who do one thing well (or elite even) but have glaring holes elsewhere in their game. Sam was probably the only exception on last year's team, and even he is short on quickness/athleticism. Those 70s teams included guys like Meminger, Chones, Lackey, Bo, McNeil, Luke, Tatum, Butch, etc., etc., etc. Crean had guys like Wade and Wes, Buzz guys like JFB and Jae. Wojo has a ways to go to get us back to where we were under TC. After that, Buzz. Then the 70s. Not impossible, but there's a long way to go. Getting this grad transfer PG would be a nice step, but there would still be miles to travel IMO.
Player development is going to be essential for our program to have more complete players. Right now we have 4 guys on the roster who with continued development could possibly be complete players with athleticism and skills. 3 of them Jamal, Greg and Theo have to make the classic big transition from freshman to sophomore . The good news was they were very solid defensively as freshman and all showed signs of meaningful Offensive upside. The fourth player , Ed Morrow, has to make the standard transfer sitting out a year transition. The good news there was he made solid progress from his freshman year to sophomore year at the Big Ten Level and Ed should now, after a year working out and being with team, be in a position to take his game up another notch. 2019 recruiting class has to be full of players with similar attributes as the 4 listed above.
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Well glad I didn’t take that to the bank....
Hopefully soon we will be closer to Duke tho
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Well glad I didn’t take that to the bank....
Hopefully soon we will be closer to Duke tho
Best players going into next season: Hauser, Howard, Morrow, Hauser
Best players from Wojo’s first season: Wilson, Carlino, Fischer, Anderson
Definitely closer to Duke than to 2014-2015 MU.
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Best players going into next season: Hauser, Howard, Morrow, Hauser
Best players from Wojo’s first season: Wilson, Carlino, Fischer, Anderson
Definitely closer to Duke than to 2014-2015 MU.
Don't you think it's a little bullish to be saying J Hauser will unequivocally be the 4th best player when he's been injured for a year and hasn't played a minute of College ball yet?
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Don't you think it's a little bullish to be saying J Hauser will unequivocally be the 4th best player when he's been injured for a year and hasn't played a minute of College ball yet?
No.
Look what his brother did as a frosh.
Then look at their respective rankings.
Then look at JayBee's LNH post: http://latenighthoops.com/joey-hauser-advanced-stats-adidas-uprising/#.WtSkMi7waUk
If healthy he'll likely be BEast freshman of the year
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Don't you think it's a little bullish to be saying J Hauser will unequivocally be the 4th best player when he's been injured for a year and hasn't played a minute of College ball yet?
Did you feel the same way about Henry before he played a college game coming off a broken hand?
IMO Joey won't be as good as Henry, and won't put up the scoring numbers that he did Freshman year (although I hope he can shoot the 3 ball better), but both kids are really good talents and I expect Joey to be a solid contributor next year.
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Did you feel the same way about Henry before he played a college game coming off a broken hand?
IMO Joey won't be as good as Henry, and won't put up the scoring numbers that he did Freshman year (although I hope he can shoot the 3 ball better), but both kids are really good talents and I expect Joey to be a solid contributor next year.
Henry played on a team with no talent, Wojo let him him do whatever he wanted. Joey has a team with talent especially at the 3 and 4. He
will be a piece next year to add to the team. A star, not as a freshman or maybe not till he is a junior. Only have one ball and Markus can be
like a black hole. Hope he is a efficient has his brother, if so, MU will be good. As I can see Morrow, Joey and Sam playing together alot this
year. More importantly, hope the Hauser boys are healthy enough to play. That will take to fall to see if that is true. If not I can see Sam redshirting. If that is the case, Joey will see lots of time on the court.
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Best players going into next season: Hauser, Howard, Morrow, Hauser
Best players from Wojo’s first season: Wilson, Carlino, Fischer, Anderson
Definitely closer to Duke than to 2014-2015 MU.
“In two years we will be much closer to Duke then we were last year or for the rest of this year”
That 2 year window is currently up from when you made that comment.
Next years roster(which should be very solid) is not a part of this.
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“In two years we will be much closer to Duke then we were last year or for the rest of this year”
That 2 year window is currently up from when you made that comment.
Next years roster(which should be very solid) is not a part of this.
People seem to be really bad at interpreting math on this site. The first two years under Wojo we were sub-90 teams on kenpom. The last two we were 40+ spots better than either of the first two. It may not be elite, but it's a hell of a lot closer to Duke than when we weren't even making the NIT.
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I could not care less about what happened in the past, unless it was building a foundation for the future. This upcoming year should paint a solid picture of what it is to come in years to follow. If it looks Duke like, worth the wait. If not, we all should be disappointed.
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Player development is going to be essential for our program to have more complete players. Right now we have 4 guys on the roster who with continued development could possibly be complete players with athleticism and skills. 3 of them Jamal, Greg and Theo have to make the classic big transition from freshman to sophomore . The good news was they were very solid defensively as freshman and all showed signs of meaningful Offensive upside. The fourth player , Ed Morrow, has to make the standard transfer sitting out a year transition. The good news there was he made solid progress from his freshman year to sophomore year at the Big Ten Level and Ed should now, after a year working out and being with team, be in a position to take his game up another notch. 2019 recruiting class has to be full of players with similar attributes as the 4 listed above.
I didn't expect that you'd be the guy to throw Eke under the bus.
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I didn't expect that you'd be the guy to throw Eke under the bus.
I still like Ike but we don't know when he can return to conditioning and playing D1 level intensity . So left him off the bus for now.
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People seem to be really bad at interpreting math on this site. The first two years under Wojo we were sub-90 teams on kenpom. The last two we were 40+ spots better than either of the first two. It may not be elite, but it's a hell of a lot closer to Duke than when we weren't even making the NIT.
You seem to be bad at math.
In either form.
1. It’s 3 years right now.
2. Even if it wasn’t 3 years. Being in the NIT at 19-13 is much closer to a team missing the NIT at 20-13 then it is being a fu cking top 2 seed in the NCAA tourney.
The fact you would even try to argue otherwise has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read, literally.
That said, we are moving in a good direction. We are not even remotely close to being a perennial top 2 seed tho.
Good lord.
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“In two years we will be much closer to Duke then we were last year or for the rest of this year”
That 2 year window is currently up from when you made that comment.
Next years roster(which should be very solid) is not a part of this.
Right. Which is why I said this:
So what you’re saying is you made up your story? Got it. Thanks for confirming.
I’d say the results confirmed we were closer to Duke than the 13-19 first year record Wojo had due to an entirely bare cupboard Bazz left. So again, thanks for providing a quote that has nothing to do with what you claim I said. 2 years after that quote, which was coming off of a 13-19 season, we were an NCAA Tournament team losing to the same opponent Duke lost to a whopping one round earlier than Duke lost to them. So, that checks out. Appreciate it!
And this was stated:
Looks pretty spot on to me. Marquette in 2015 Kenpom was 93, in 2017 we were 32 and Duke was 14.
Should’ve taken it to the bank. Would’ve made some money.
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Right. Which is why I said this:
And this was stated:
Should’ve taken it to the bank. Would’ve made some money.
Except we made the tournament using the "empty cupboard" remnants from Buzz...
I do applaud your efforts to stand behind your clearly ill-conceived projection suggesting we'd be approaching the Al years once Wojo had all his own guys (which he did this year).
Now, I will say we were fun to watch. So. There's that.
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You seem to be bad at math.
In either form.
1. It’s 3 years right now.
2. Even if it wasn’t 3 years. Being in the NIT at 19-13 is much closer to a team missing the NIT at 20-13 then it is being a fu cking top 2 seed in the NCAA tourney.
The fact you would even try to argue otherwise has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read, literally.
That said, we are moving in a good direction. We are not even remotely close to being a perennial top 2 seed tho.
Good lord.
So bad at math and reading comprehension. 2 years from that post we were in the NCAA tournament. In the third year we were a bubble team and in the NIT.
Also, the comparison was not that we would be closer to Duke than we were to Marquette in years one or two under Wojo but that we would be closer to Duke in year 3 and beyond than we were at the time of the post. Even if we were in the 80s on kenpom, we would be closer to Duke now than we were in Wojo's first two years. Frankly, any improvement from years 1 and 2 in years 3 and beyond would make that prediction accurate.
If we want to talk about things that are literally dumb, keep posting, you're doing a bang up job at displaying your own failings.
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Yea, I think it's pretty obvious the bold initial post about being close to Duke at this point clearly meant, we'll be within 50 spots of Duke on KenPom. ::)
Wish I would've taken that to the bank three years ago!
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We are pretty much at the Rick Majerus level right now. Unfortunately, Dwayne Johnson could not stay eligible and so the Majerus era ended early and we didn't get to see it play out at MU. Hopefully , the story has a better ending this time around.
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Except we made the tournament using the "empty cupboard" remnants from Buzz...
I do applaud your efforts to stand behind your clearly ill-conceived projection suggesting we'd be approaching the Al years once Wojo had all his own guys (which he did this year).
Now, I will say we were fun to watch. So. There's that.
What empty remnants? Duane Luke and JJJ? Karin Howard Sam and Rowsey were all as equally important or more so than any of the three leftovers.
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Yea, I think it's pretty obvious the bold initial post about being close to Duke at this point clearly meant, we'll be within 50 spots of Duke on KenPom. ::)
Wish I would've taken that to the bank three years ago!
You should've. You would've made some money and saved yourself the embarrassment of this post.
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It's like people want Marquette to be bad so they can end up saying "I told you so."
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Chi town
I really hope that is not true. Nothing would make me happier than Wojo taking program to high level. I would be waiting in line to say congrats. Don’t confuse frustration as hoping to be right. I am not sold he can do it, but hoping he does.
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It's like people want Marquette to be bad so they can end up saying "I told you so."
It's actually nothing like that. To me, this whole "closer to Duke" stuff is silly. What I'd like to "take to the bank" is Wade's (and others) prediction that Wojo will take the program to a level not seen since the 70s. That's a bridge pretty far right now.
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Lenny
I would love to see Buzz like success in near future. Truthfully, at this point the success is only seen by true optimists. I would be mildly optimistic if next year shows real progress. To talk about Al success is literally insane at this point. Trust me, I have lived a life dreaming big and hope that happens down the road. But, at this point it is silly to even debate.
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Levels we haven’t seen since Al doesn’t = Al’s level.
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Levels we haven’t seen since Al doesn’t = Al’s level.
I understand and concede that. Al levels are unreachable given the landscape that is college basketball today. Crean and Buzz levels are what I rooting for Wojo to surpass. That's what those "in the know" predicted in 2015 according to your post. He's got a ways to go, wouldn't you say?
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I understand and concede that. Al levels are unreachable given the landscape that is college basketball today. Crean and Buzz levels are what I rooting for Wojo to surpass. That's what those "in the know" predicted in 2015 according to your post. He's got a ways to go, wouldn't you say?
Villanova is currently laughing at your statement that it's unreachable. It's unlikely to reach but give me the option of 67-77 success under Al or Villanovas last 10 years I'd take Villanova every day and not even hesitate. And as much pride as you old timers have in Al you're lying if you say otherwise
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I understand and concede that. Al levels are unreachable given the landscape that is college basketball today.
Bulls*it!!!!!!
It can happen if there is a commitment to make it happen. It means the right people in the right places with the right team.
I admit, it is harder today given the diversity of teams in college basketball. But it is possible. If Duke can do it. If Villanova can do it. Forgodssake, if UConn can do it, we can do it too.
I hope Wojo is the right guy. A point guard and a deep run into the NCAA and I might be convinced. Al didn't win everything every year, but we were a contender every year and we were in the discussion.
Chick is right, I don't see an "A" grade for our team until we make the Final Four again!
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Villanova is currently laughing at your statement that it's unreachable. It's unlikely to reach but give me the option of 67-77 success under Al or Villanovas last 10 years I'd take Villanova every day and not even hesitate. And as much pride as you old timers have in Al you're lying if you say otherwise
I would take our days with Al over Nova's current stretch. We were the clear number 2 program after the incredible UCLA program . The top teams in that period were also much more powerful on a relative basis than they are today, which further supports MU's greatness. Not taking anything away from Jay Wright and Company but we were just at a different level . We struck fear into the hearts of our opponents.
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I would take our days with Al over Nova's current stretch. We were the clear number 2 program after the incredible UCLA program . The top teams in that period were also much more powerful on a relative basis than they are today, which further supports MU's greatness. Not taking anything away from Jay Wright and Company but we were just at a different level . We struck fear into the hearts of our opponents.
You realize since 2009 alone they have more final fours and championships than us in 101 years of basketball...
Can't fix stupid
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You realize since 2009 alone they have more final fours and championships than us in 101 years of basketball...
Can't fix stupid
Championships, yes. Final Fours, no.
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Championships, yes. Final Fours, no.
Sorry had a few beers tonight. My bad
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I understand and concede that. Al levels are unreachable given the landscape that is college basketball today. Crean and Buzz levels are what I rooting for Wojo to surpass. That's what those "in the know" predicted in 2015 according to your post. He's got a ways to go, wouldn't you say?
I agree. He has a long way to go. And I am rooting for Wojo to surpass the success Crean and Buzz as well. Which I think starts this year. I think Wojo adds a quality lead guard this offseason and we’re a top 4 BE team that graduates only Matt Heldt. I expect a team that hovers around the top 25 throughout the year and the following year is a top 15 team. I have confidence from this year forward we will be worrying about what our seed is and not whether we get into the NCAA Tournament.
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I agree. He has a long way to go. And I am rooting for Wojo to surpass the success Crean and Buzz as well. Which I think starts this year. I think Wojo adds a quality lead guard this offseason and we’re a top 4 BE team that graduates only Matt Heldt. I expect a team that hovers around the top 25 throughout the year and the following year is a top 15 team. I have confidence from this year forward we will be worrying about what our seed is and not whether we get into the NCAA Tournament.
Hope you're right. If so, all Marquette fan are in for a special stretch.
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I agree. He has a long way to go. And I am rooting for Wojo to surpass the success Crean and Buzz as well. Which I think starts this year. I think Wojo adds a quality lead guard this offseason and we’re a top 4 BE team that graduates only Matt Heldt. I expect a team that hovers around the top 25 throughout the year and the following year is a top 15 team. I have confidence from this year forward we will be worrying about what our seed is and not whether we get into the NCAA Tournament.
I agree with this, and I definitely hope for it.
Is it "possible" that we'll ever get back to Al level? Technically yes, but realistically no, and just about everybody understands that. The landscape is so different, it's almost like two different games.
Come join us, young Joseph. We are Marquette!
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I agree. He has a long way to go. And I am rooting for Wojo to surpass the success Crean and Buzz as well. Which I think starts this year. I think Wojo adds a quality lead guard this offseason and we’re a top 4 BE team that graduates only Matt Heldt. I expect a team that hovers around the top 25 throughout the year and the following year is a top 15 team. I have confidence from this year forward we will be worrying about what our seed is and not whether we get into the NCAA Tournament.
Top 4 Big East team for next season looks like about a Top 40 team. No Big East team other than Nova even projected in Top 25 per the Value Ad numbers. Good news is that we are at 26, and per value add should finish 2nd in conference WITHOUT a grad transfer lead guard.
I'll be pleased if Wojo can reach the levels of success of Crean. I don't expect he'll be able to reach Buzz levels, because I just don't believe he is a good in-game coach. We will win with talent - good news is Wojo has done well in that department in identifying and landing players who could all contribute and play.
But, the hyperbole of suggesting we can approach Duke or the 70s with Wojo as coach is absurd. I don't see anything in the last 4-years that leads me to believe he can juice a few extra wins out of a team through pure X's and O's, strategy, in-game adjustments.
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Top 4 Big East team for next season looks like about a Top 40 team. No Big East team other than Nova even projected in Top 25 per the Value Ad numbers. Good news is that we are at 26, and per value add should finish 2nd in conference WITHOUT a grad transfer lead guard.
I'll be pleased if Wojo can reach the levels of success of Crean. I don't expect he'll be able to reach Buzz levels, because I just don't believe he is a good in-game coach. We will win with talent - good news is Wojo has done well in that department in identifying and landing players who could all contribute and play.
But, the hyperbole of suggesting we can approach Duke or the 70s with Wojo as coach is absurd. I don't see anything in the last 4-years that leads me to believe he can juice a few extra wins out of a team through pure X's and O's, strategy, in-game adjustments.
Until he signs a Top 20 kid or Top 50 kid not from Wisconsin, he will flounder. Al signed Top 10 kids and Coach K top 5 kids, and this year 3 of them. Needs a break through kid, to bad on Grimes, he would have been huge. Running to Texas all the time, it is great MU likes to spend money on fuel. That is for sure.
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I'll be pleased if Wojo can reach the levels of success of Crean. I don't expect he'll be able to reach Buzz levels, because I just don't believe he is a good in-game coach. We will win with talent - good news is Wojo has done well in that department in identifying and landing players who could all contribute and play.
But, the hyperbole of suggesting we can approach Duke or the 70s with Wojo as coach is absurd. I don't see anything in the last 4-years that leads me to believe he can juice a few extra wins out of a team through pure X's and O's, strategy, in-game adjustments.
Agree that Wojo isn't as good of an in game coach as Buzz, but he has shown improvement, which I think is very important. His first year here, a lot of the time the offense was whatever Carlino or Duane could get by themselves. Same his second year with Henry.
The fact that he is riding the hot hand more, shows his development in this area. Riding Sacar against CU, then coming back the next game and running multiple set plays for Sacar. Still too much hero ball with AR and MH this year, but significantly less than we had when Carlino was here. If Wojo continues to improve his in game adjustment (he's behind Buzz, but ahead of Crean IMO), he could become an above average in game coach in a coupe of seasons.
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Until he signs a Top 20 kid or Top 50 kid not from Wisconsin, he will flounder. Al signed Top 10 kids and Coach K top 5 kids, and this year 3 of them. Needs a break through kid, to bad on Grimes, he would have been huge. Running to Texas all the time, it is great MU likes to spend money on fuel. That is for sure.
K only recently started stacking his classes with one & dones. McD's AA's yes, but it wasn't always 3-4 top 5/10 players per class. That was 30 years down the road.
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People praising Buzz Williams' in-game coaching either have an agenda or an extremely selective memory.
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People praising Buzz Williams' in-game coaching either have an agenda or an extremely selective memory.
Disagree. Buzz was a better in-game coach than either Crean or Wojo. Perfect? No. Came up with some good stuff? Absolutely. Especially in the E-8 run. End game defense against Butler... showed Brad something he had never seen before and wasn't on tape.
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Disagree. Buzz was a better in-game coach than either Crean or Wojo. Perfect? No. Came up with some good stuff? Absolutely. Especially in the E-8 run. End game defense against Butler... showed Brad something he had never seen before and wasn't on tape.
Cool. You picked one good adjustment. Select 10 more and then put it up against the 10-15 times he failed to make adjustments whilst his team lost double digit leads in the second half.
None of these coaches are great. None of these coaches are terrible. Claiming either side of that coin definitively reeks of an agenda or purposely ignoring half of the evidence.
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Cool. You picked one good adjustment. Select 10 more and then put it up against the 10-15 times he failed to make adjustments whilst his team lost double digit leads in the second half.
None of these coaches are great. None of these coaches are terrible. Claiming either side of that coin definitively reeks of an agenda or purposely ignoring half of the evidence.
So a coach has to bat 1.000 in order to be good? No one said Buzz was perfect, but IMO and many others he is better than both Wojo and Crean. Wojo is getting better, which is why I think he can eventually be a better in game coach than Buzz, but right now, Wojo's resume of in game adjustments is not as good as Buzz's.
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Cool. You picked one good adjustment. Select 10 more and then put it up against the 10-15 times he failed to make adjustments whilst his team lost double digit leads in the second half.
None of these coaches are great. None of these coaches are terrible. Claiming either side of that coin definitively reeks of an agenda or purposely ignoring half of the evidence.
We basically agree, but view it differently. I don't think Buzz was great. I would grade him as a B-BC. Crean a D. Wojo C- incomplete. IMO, of the 3, Buzz was better.
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People praising Buzz Williams' in-game coaching either have an agenda or an extremely selective memory.
Buzz's coaching in the early going was rough, at best. I'll never forget how Brian Gregory of all people coached circles around him when MU played Dayton at the Sears Centre in Buzz' first year. And, at the risk giving Chico's reason to gloat, Stew "The Legend" Morrill made him look bad in the first game of the tourney that year.
But Buzz learned and got better every year, and is a solid (not great) in-game coach today.
Although the critics don't care to admit it, Wojo is on a similar trajectory. He's gotten better, and there's no reason to believe he won't continue to do so. And remember, he arrived at MU with less coaching experience and less head coaching experience than Buzz.
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I never thought Buzz was an in game coach. Actually thought he was very weak. He brought other skills to the job.
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No.
Look what his brother did as a frosh.
Then look at their respective rankings.
Then look at JayBee's LNH post: http://latenighthoops.com/joey-hauser-advanced-stats-adidas-uprising/#.WtSkMi7waUk
If healthy he'll likely be BEast freshman of the year
Love Sam, but if he was on Villanova as a freshmen he would of hardly played. The same goes for this year's freshmen. They played a lot more than they would have, if they were on a top 10 team. They got great opportunities, because the team was not great.
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Sorry had a few beers tonight. My bad
Yeah, you are right. Can't fix stupid.
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I never thought Buzz was an in game coach. Actually thought he was very weak. He brought other skills to the job.
I thought one of his best in game attrtibutes was lengthening games down the stretch when we were trying to pull off a comeback in the final minutes. Fouling, substitutions, use of timeouts, play calling, etc in those scenarios were very solid imo.
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Cool. You picked one good adjustment. Select 10 more and then put it up against the 10-15 times he failed to make adjustments whilst his team lost double digit leads in the second half.
None of these coaches are great. None of these coaches are terrible. Claiming either side of that coin definitively reeks of an agenda or purposely ignoring half of the evidence.
.
How about this: With a team of 7 scholarships players and none over 6'6", Buzz decided to play at a slow tempo all season and played at 284th in country. Shorten the game. Smart.
Please just try to make ONE good point here Jersey guy.
Buzz's results speak for themselves. Your continued hate for Buzz is comical, while trying to suggest Crean and Wojo are comparable coaches.
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How about this: With a team of 7 scholarships players and none over 6'6", Buzz decided to play at a slow tempo all season and played at 284th in country. Shorten the game. Smart.
Which Buzz team had seven scholarship players and none over 6'6"?
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Which Buzz team had seven scholarship players and none over 6'6"?
If you are wanting to be a tool and are disputing the point...because Joe Fulce was listed at 6'7", knock yourself out.
Mo
Cooby
Dwight
DJO
Jimmy
Lazar
Fulce
That's 7 scholarship players. Buzz coached that team to a 6 seed and 24th ranking in Ken Pom.
Why are we even having a debate as to who the better coach is, Wojo or Buzz? Its no contest.
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The 2009-10 team had 12 scholarship players, five over 6’6”. (Otule, Yous, Williams, Fulce and Maymon.)
No reason to exaggerate.
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If you are wanting to be a tool and are disputing the point...because Joe Fulce was listed at 6'7", knock yourself out.
Mo
Cooby
Dwight
DJO
Jimmy
Lazar
Fulce
That's 7 scholarship players. Buzz coached that team to a 6 seed and 24th ranking in Ken Pom.
Why are we even having a debate as to who the better coach is, Wojo or Buzz? Its no contest.
That team also had 4 NBA players on it.
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Yeah, you are right. Can't fix stupid.
Been trying to tell you there's nothing to cure you for years. glad you're realizing it.
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Which Buzz team had seven scholarship players and none over 6'6"?
I assume he meant the 09-10 team in which Buzz ended the season with a seven man rotation with no players over 6'6. Buzz started the season with 12 scholarship players but lost Cadougan to injury (and got him back for the last 12 games), Otule to injury in the 3rd game, and Maymon to his dad in the 9th game. He also had Yous Mbao and Erik Williams all season, both of whom were taller than 6'7" but weren't very good.
That year was a hell of a coaching job by Buzz, though I think people are using different definitions of "game coach" in this discussion.
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That team also had 4 NBA players on it.
LOL
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If you are wanting to be a tool and are disputing the point...because Joe Fulce was listed at 6'7", knock yourself out.
Mo
Cooby
Dwight
DJO
Jimmy
Lazar
Fulce
That's 7 scholarship players. Buzz coached that team to a 6 seed and 24th ranking in Ken Pom.
If calling you on your blatant misstatements makes one a tool, we've got well-stocked workshop around here.
FYI, Erik Williams, Youssoupha Mbao and Junior Cadougan weren't walk ons.
Also, besides Fulce, Mbao and Erik Williams also are over 6'6".
And, as has been noted, that roster had four guys who played in the NBA, including a four-time all-star. Buzz did a great job with that team, but no need to make stuff up to enhance it,
Why are we even having a debate as to who the better coach is, Wojo or Buzz? Its no contest.
That debate is happening only in your vivid imagination, where John Dawson is Magic Johnson and Erik Williams is a 5'8" walk on.
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Been trying to tell you there's nothing to cure you for years. glad you're realizing it.
Thanks for the compliment. You are right. I realize that you talking gibberish for years is nothing.
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Thanks for the compliment. You are right. I realize that you talking gibberish for years is nothing.
::) go jerk it to breitbart some more.
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If calling you on your blatant misstatements makes one a tool, we've got well-stocked workshop around here.
FYI, Erik Williams, Youssoupha Mbao and Junior Cadougan weren't walk ons.
Also, besides Fulce, Mbao and Erik Williams also are over 6'6".
And, as has been noted, that roster had four guys who played in the NBA, including a four-time all-star. Buzz did a great job with that team, but no need to make stuff up to enhance it,
Talk about a blatant misrepresentation...even referencing Otule, Cadougan, Maymom..who were all gone by conference play.
My bad though. I did forget about Erik Williams and Yous.
Glad though, that we agree that Wojo isn’t in Buzz’s zip code, as it relates to coaching.
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Talk about a blatant misrepresentation...even referencing Otule, Cadougan, Maymom..who were all gone by conference play.
He didn't have a big impact on that season, but Cadougan wasn't gone by conference play. He didn't start playing until after conference play began.
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You guys can pick nits all you want, but Ners is essentially right. Maymon was gone after 9 games, Otule after 3. Cadougan and Mbao COMBINED for 5 points in 107 worthless minutes (Rob Frozena had 6 points that year). Erik Williams had 15 DNPs and averaged 1.2ppg and 1.4 rpg. They were on the roster that season (some for part, some for all) but their contributions ranged from almost nothing to the negative.
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Talk about a blatant misrepresentation...even referencing Otule, Cadougan, Maymom..who were all gone by conference play.
My bad though. I did forget about Erik Williams and Yous.
Glad though, that we agree that Wojo isn’t in Buzz’s zip code, as it relates to coaching.
I'm too lazy, but maybe some of our historians here would like to go back to 2013-14, when a prolific commenter who went by Ners suggested about 500 times a day that there were dads coaching their 8-year-olds in rec-league biddy ball who could have done a better job with those Warriors than Buzz did.
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You guys can pick nits all you want, but Ners is essentially right. Maymon was gone after 9 games, Otule after 3. Cadougan and Mbao COMBINED for 5 points in 107 worthless minutes (Rob Frozena had 6 points that year). Erik Williams had 15 DNPs and averaged 1.2ppg and 1.4 rpg. They were on the roster that season (some for part, some for all) but their contributions ranged from almost nothing to the negative.
It's not really picking nits. Ners did his usual. He stated a claim that was exaggerated and then insulted someone for making a poor point in the process. (Ironic.)
How about this: With a team of 7 scholarships players and none over 6'6", Buzz decided to play at a slow tempo all season and played at 284th in country. Shorten the game. Smart.
Please just try to make ONE good point here Jersey guy.
Did Buzz do a good coaching job that year? Yes. No one has claimed otherwise.
Did he have "seven scholarship players?" Not even close.
Did he have "none over 6'6"?" Wrong again.
We sit here and complain that Wojo f*cked up the point guard position, and that it his fault, but then people want to ignore that Buzz recruited a player who was a head case (Maymon) and another who should have been nowhere near a BE team. (Yous)
So really much of the blame for the lack of playable height on that team was due to Buzz's recruiting short comings.
People should just *try* to be consistent, and not exaggerate in the process.
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We sit here and complain that Wojo f*cked up the point guard position, and that it his fault, but then people want to ignore that Buzz recruited a player who was a head case (Maymon) and another who should have been nowhere near a BE team. (Yous)
So really much of the blame for the lack of playable height on that team was due to Buzz's recruiting short comings.
People should just *try* to be consistent, and not exaggerate in the process.
That was Buzz's second year. The only players remaining in year 2 from the previous regime were Hayward (6'5"), Cuby (5'10") and Mo (5'8" - allegedly). He took a chance on Maymon and a flyer on Mbao because Maymon had talent and Mbao height.
Comparing the point guard situation in year 4 of a regime with lack of solid bigs in year 2 isn't being consistent IMO.
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That was Buzz's second year. The only players remaining in year 2 from the previous regime were Hayward (6'5"), Cuby (5'10") and Mo (5'8" - allegedly). He took a chance on Maymon and a flyer on Mbao because Maymon had talent and Mbao height.
Comparing the point guard situation in year 4 of a regime with lack of solid bigs in year 2 isn't being consistent IMO.
And Wojo thought that Markus would be his point guard.
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You guys can pick nits all you want, but Ners is essentially right. Maymon was gone after 9 games, Otule after 3. Cadougan and Mbao COMBINED for 5 points in 107 worthless minutes (Rob Frozena had 6 points that year). Erik Williams had 15 DNPs and averaged 1.2ppg and 1.4 rpg. They were on the roster that season (some for part, some for all) but their contributions ranged from almost nothing to the negative.
You're trying to have it both ways, Lenny.
You can't laud Buzz for his work with an undersized team, but not hold him responsible for building an undersized team.
You can't argue that Mbao and Erik Williams shouldn't be counted because they were ineffective, but not hold Buzz responsible for recruiting players who were ineffective.
No one here is arguing that Buzz didn't do a good job that year. Literally not one person. You and Ners are arguing with straw men.
But most of the personnel issues he had to overcome that season were of his own making.
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That was Buzz's second year. The only players remaining in year 2 from the previous regime were Hayward (6'5"), Cuby (5'10") and Mo (5'8" - allegedly). He took a chance on Maymon and a flyer on Mbao because Maymon had talent and Mbao height.
Comparing the point guard situation in year 4 of a regime with lack of solid bigs in year 2 isn't being consistent IMO.
Since Wojo's roster makeup has been hurt by transfers (namely the loss of Traci Carter), for which his critics give him plenty of blame, can we blame MU's lack of size in Buzz's second year on his inability to keep Trevor Mbakwe in the fold?
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I'm too lazy, but maybe some of our historians here would like to go back to 2013-14, when a prolific commenter who went by Ners suggested about 500 times a day that there were dads coaching their 8-year-olds in rec-league biddy ball who could have done a better job with those Warriors than Buzz did.
Ahh...sorry dude. But, I was completely right about Buzz. Said early on in his last year that he wasn't "right." Clearly wasn't coaching at his optimum. To no surprise he left 4 days after the season ended. Couldn't get out of town fast enough. No love lost toward MU Admin and BOT. Messed with his happy, and he was really happy at MU through 4 years. Gave them a big F-You on the way out the door his last year.
I loved Buzz from the drop, and said 10 games in he would be our best coach since Al. Sultan scoffed at my post at that time saying if Buzz stayed at MU for 10 years he'd lead us to Final Four/consistent Sweet 16/Elite 8 appearances.
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You guys can pick nits all you want, but Ners is essentially right. Maymon was gone after 9 games, Otule after 3. Cadougan and Mbao COMBINED for 5 points in 107 worthless minutes (Rob Frozena had 6 points that year). Erik Williams had 15 DNPs and averaged 1.2ppg and 1.4 rpg. They were on the roster that season (some for part, some for all) but their contributions ranged from almost nothing to the negative.
It was a dumb point to try to suggest that team was anything more than 7 guys. Yes - I did forget about Erik Williams and Yous, because they were total and complete non-factors - referenced above.
Acting as if they made the coaching job easier, because of their presence on the roster is silly.
Buzz intelligently employed a strategy to extend offensive possessions, play at a slow pace, to limit exposure on defensive end. With Wojo? It's just gun, gun, gun - despite being undersized - and he chose to play M2M with a team that was outclassed in size, strength and athleticism at EVERY position once in conference play. DUMB.
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Since Wojo's roster makeup has been hurt by transfers (namely the loss of Traci Carter), for which his critics give him plenty of blame, can we blame MU's lack of size in Buzz's second year on his inability to keep Trevor Mbakwe in the fold?
Sure we can. But in Year 2, even with those shortcomings and his fault for losing Mbawke - he led the team to a 6 seed...in YEAR 2. Wojo? Couldn't even get us to NCAA in Year 4...much less an NIT berth in Year 2.
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..
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It was a dumb point to try to suggest that team was anything more than 7 guys. Yes - I did forget about Erik Williams and Yous, because they were total and complete non-factors - referenced above.
Acting as if they made the coaching job easier, because of their presence on the roster is silly.
Buzz intelligently employed a strategy to extend offensive possessions, play at a slow pace, to limit exposure on defensive end. With Wojo? It's just gun, gun, gun - despite being undersized - and he chose to play M2M with a team that was outclassed in size, strength and athleticism at EVERY position once in conference play. DUMB.
Except our zone was worse. Our defense wasn’t good no matter what we played. So the only option was to outscore opponents. Which meant gun, gun, gun. Suggesting otherwise would be DUMB.
I guess you ignored the first two years under Wojo when he slowed the pace down. He’s adjusted based on his personnel. To suggest he doesn’t is DUMB.
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in before the lock
You all are just being brutal to eachother. Damn.
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Except our zone was worse. Our defense wasn’t good no matter what we played. So the only option was to outscore opponents. Which meant gun, gun, gun. Suggesting otherwise would be DUMB.
I guess you ignored the first two years under Wojo when he slowed the pace down. He’s adjusted based on his personnel. To suggest he doesn’t is DUMB.
Actually our tempo increased in Year 2 and 3 over Year 1..and slowed slightly this year. But. Not nearly slow enough with our brutal defense.
And sorry, but the zone was never given proper application. Repetition and exclusivity matter - in basically any application in life. And, of course you need proper personnel, as in Jamal Cain playing 30 minutes in your zone.
Help me understand your continued bullish stance on Wojo?
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Actually our tempo increased in Year 2 and 3 over Year 1..and slowed slightly this year. But. Not nearly slow enough with our brutal defense.
And sorry, but the zone was never given proper application. Repetition and exclusivity matter - in basically any application in life. And, of course you need proper personnel, as in Jamal Cain playing 30 minutes in your zone.
Help me understand your continued bullish stance on Wojo?
Jamal can't play 5 positions at once, if we need proper personnel, which we do, then not having the proper personnel last year is reason enough not to run zone.
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Ahh...sorry dude. But, I was completely right about Buzz. Said early on in his last year that he wasn't "right." Clearly wasn't coaching at his optimum. To no surprise he left 4 days after the season ended. Couldn't get out of town fast enough. No love lost toward MU Admin and BOT. Messed with his happy, and he was really happy at MU through 4 years. Gave them a big F-You on the way out the door his last year.
As I said, you contend that Wojo can never be close to as good a coach as Buzz ... but Buzz himself wasn't as good a coach as Buzz.
Why don't you tell us again that Rowsey will never be able to carry Magic Dawson's jockstrap?
Dude.
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Agree that Wojo isn't as good of an in game coach as Buzz, but he has shown improvement, which I think is very important. His first year here, a lot of the time the offense was whatever Carlino or Duane could get by themselves. Same his second year with Henry.
The fact that he is riding the hot hand more, shows his development in this area. Riding Sacar against CU, then coming back the next game and running multiple set plays for Sacar. Still too much hero ball with AR and MH this year, but significantly less than we had when Carlino was here. If Wojo continues to improve his in game adjustment (he's behind Buzz, but ahead of Crean IMO), he could become an above average in game coach in a coupe of seasons.
Wojo's first year might of been his best coaching year. Winning 13 games with that talent seems to me to be more impressive than winning 21 games with this year's talent.
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And Wojo thought that Markus would be his point guard.
Not as bad as thinking Cheatham was.
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Wojo's first year might of been his best coaching year. Winning 13 games with that talent seems to me to be more impressive than winning 21 games with this year's talent.
I don't know about that. Two separate 6 game losing streaks, and a terrible loss to Omaha. A lot of those wins were from extra bad cupcakes. Wojo got all he could out of those guys, but the highlight of that year was getting a commit from Henry.
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Not as bad as thinking Cheatham was.
Ding. Ding. Ding. One of several decisions that formed my early opinion that he wasn’t going to be a good coach. Playing Deonte Burton 15 minutes per game being another. Derrick Wilson 35 a game with Carlino and Duane on the roster another. Results speak for themselves so far..no NCAA tourney wins.
As we all know, Year 5 will be hugely important to Wojo. Big East will be down. Gotta guide this team to an NCAA bid at minimum to show some progress.
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As I said, you contend that Wojo can never be close to as good a coach as Buzz ... but Buzz himself wasn't as good a coach as Buzz.
Why don't you tell us again that Rowsey will never be able to carry Magic Dawson's jockstrap?
Dude.
What part of Buzz not giving an F his last year do you not understand?
And yet again another proactive Dawson mention. Also said in that post that size matters in Big East and Dawson was physically far beyond Rowsey - but then all you Wojo apologists used the we were undersized excuse all year long. Who’s fault is that?
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What part of Buzz not giving an F his last year do you not understand?
And yet again another proactive Dawson mention. Also said in that post that size matters in Big East and Dawson was physically far beyond Rowsey - but then all you Wojo apologists used the we were undersized excuse all year long. Who’s fault is that?
Sure, have it both ways.
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What part of Buzz not giving an F his last year do you not understand?
That fact that it is not true. Buzz was working his ass off to squeeze as much as he could out of that last roster so he could be in the best position possible for when he job searched.
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That fact that it is not true. Buzz was working his ass off to squeeze as much as he could out of that last roster so he could be in the best position possible for when he job searched.
Also just because someone may not be motivated to coach well, they still are ultimately responsible for their coaching.
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That fact that it is not true. Buzz was working his ass off to squeeze as much as he could out of that last roster so he could be in the best position possible for when he job searched.
Yup. Anyone who actually thinks that a coach would just throw the season out of spite because he could no longer get any and every little thing he asked the administration for has no clue what they are talking about. That would be a heck of a way to introduce himself during job interviews. AD: "So Buzz, you got the most out of your teams the first five seasons at Marquette. Your last team had more talent than your record suggests. What happened that last year?" Buzz: "Well, future boss of mine, I didn't try to coach that team up at all because Marquette was no longer accommodating my every wish. If I wanted to have more success I would have, but I was checked the eff out." AD: "Wow, that's really impressive stuff! Would you please start writing up the contract you would like from us and we'll simply sign on the dotted line when you're ready."
Hilarious that people actually buy into that.
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Ners thinks Buzz tried to tank in 2013-14.
Maybe that's the way Ners did it as a high school basketball player - after averaging 50 ppg as a junior, he went down to a mere 40 ppg as a senior - but it's not the way college coaches do things in the real world.
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Ahh...sorry dude. But, I was completely right about Buzz. Said early on in his last year that he wasn't "right." Clearly wasn't coaching at his optimum. To no surprise he left 4 days after the season ended. Couldn't get out of town fast enough. No love lost toward MU Admin and BOT. Messed with his happy, and he was really happy at MU through 4 years. Gave them a big F-You on the way out the door his last year.
I loved Buzz from the drop, and said 10 games in he would be our best coach since Al. Sultan scoffed at my post at that time saying if Buzz stayed at MU for 10 years he'd lead us to Final Four/consistent Sweet 16/Elite 8 appearances.
"Listen, when I was right, I was right. And when I was wrong, I was right. And when there's definitive proof I was wrong, I was still somehow right. And when everyone can see beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was completely wrong, I'll shift the goalposts. So basically...I was right."
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Yup. Anyone who actually thinks that a coach would just throw the season out of spite because he could no longer get any and every little thing he asked the administration for has no clue what they are talking about. That would be a heck of a way to introduce himself during job interviews. AD: "So Buzz, you got the most out of your teams the first five seasons at Marquette. Your last team had more talent than your record suggests. What happened that last year?" Buzz: "Well, future boss of mine, I didn't try to coach that team up at all because Marquette was no longer accommodating my every wish. If I wanted to have more success I would have, but I was checked the eff out." AD: "Wow, that's really impressive stuff! Would you please start writing up the contract you would like from us and we'll simply sign on the dotted line when you're ready."
Hilarious that people actually buy into that.
I don't think Buzz intentionally tanked his last season at MU, but I believe there are ways one can tank a season without intending it.
What we can say is that team, unlike Buzz's prior teams, underachieved and played uninspired hoops for large stretches of that season. They often looked lost and confused on the court. And they showed little fight when they fell behind against quality opponents (see: blowout losses to Ohio State and Creighton). Before that season, Buzz had a 7-2 record in OT games. That year, they were 2-4.
Did Buzz set out to lose games that season? No chance.
Did Buzz coach and prepare his players with the same passion and intensity as he had in previous years? I suspect not.
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I ain’t always right but I’ve never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in the song
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You're trying to have it both ways, Lenny.
You can't laud Buzz for his work with an undersized team, but not hold him responsible for building an undersized team.
I'm not trying to have it both ways. Of course Buzz was responsible. He's the head coach. But he had one recruiting class to solve the problem he inherited. Wojo has been at this a little longer.
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I don't think Buzz intentionally tanked his last season at MU, but I believe there are ways one can tank a season without intending it.
What we can say is that team, unlike Buzz's prior teams, underachieved and played uninspired hoops for large stretches of that season. They often looked lost and confused on the court. And they showed little fight when they fell behind against quality opponents (see: blowout losses to Ohio State and Creighton). Before that season, Buzz had a 7-2 record in OT games. That year, they were 2-4.
Did Buzz set out to lose games that season? No chance.
Did Buzz coach and prepare his players with the same passion and intensity as he had in previous years? I suspect not.
Buzz got surprised by Vander leaving and he didn't recruit well enough for that season, so he stuck himself with the worst starting backcourt in modern Marquette history.
K, Roy, Wright, Stevens, Shaka, Wojo ... the coach wouldn't have mattered ... you can't win with that backcourt.
Plus, Buzz lost McKay, who would have been an important player. (Wouldn't have solved the guard problem, though.)
We still had an outside chance at the NCAAs but we lost our last 3 regular-season games - including the last two each by 1 point in double-OT.
Losing by 1 in double-OT ... it's hard to say anybody (including the coach) remotely tanked anything (and you don't say differently, Pakuni).
Great teams - even good ones - rely upon their guards at nut-crunching time. Think how many times Vander (and even Junior) bailed us out the season before. That team did not have the option of getting great play from its guards at nut-crunching times. Most games, we would have settled for slightly-sub-mediocre and couldn't even get that.
It's easy to look lost and confused in that situation.
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Buzz got surprised by Vander leaving and he didn't recruit well enough for that season, so he stuck himself with the worst starting backcourt in modern Marquette history.
K, Roy, Wright, Stevens, Shaka, Wojo ... the coach wouldn't have mattered ... you can't win with that backcourt.
Plus, Buzz lost McKay, who would have been an important player. (Wouldn't have solved the guard problem, though.)
We still had an outside chance at the NCAAs but we lost our last 3 regular-season games - including the last two each by 1 point in double-OT.
Losing by 1 in double-OT ... it's hard to say anybody (including the coach) remotely tanked anything (and you don't say differently, Pakuni).
Great teams - even good ones - rely upon their guards at nut-crunching time. Think how many times Vander (and even Junior) bailed us out the season before. That team did not have the option of getting great play from its guards at nut-crunching times. Most games, we would have settled for slightly-sub-mediocre and couldn't even get that.
It's easy to look lost and confused in that situation.
Also remember Duane got injured leaving us without even a solid freshman to spell Derrick
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Also remember Duane got injured leaving us without even a solid freshman to spell Derrick
Yea but I thought the rumour was Duane was ready to go by Christmas and it was Buzz' call for him to sit out the rest of the season, not Duane's or the doctors.
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Yea but I thought the rumour was Duane was ready to go by Christmas and it was Buzz' call for him to sit out the rest of the season, not Duane's or the doctors.
Hahaha
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Buzz got surprised by Vander leaving and he didn't recruit well enough for that season, so he stuck himself with the worst starting backcourt in modern Marquette history.
K, Roy, Wright, Stevens, Shaka, Wojo ... the coach wouldn't have mattered ... you can't win with that backcourt.
Plus, Buzz lost McKay, who would have been an important player. (Wouldn't have solved the guard problem, though.)
We still had an outside chance at the NCAAs but we lost our last 3 regular-season games - including the last two each by 1 point in double-OT.
Losing by 1 in double-OT ... it's hard to say anybody (including the coach) remotely tanked anything (and you don't say differently, Pakuni).
Great teams - even good ones - rely upon their guards at nut-crunching time. Think how many times Vander (and even Junior) bailed us out the season before. That team did not have the option of getting great play from its guards at nut-crunching times. Most games, we would have settled for slightly-sub-mediocre and couldn't even get that.
It's easy to look lost and confused in that situation.
100% agree.
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Buzz got surprised by Vander leaving and he didn't recruit well enough for that season, so he stuck himself with the worst starting backcourt in modern Marquette history.
The real killer was having both Derrick and Jake out there together. We could've lived with Derrick if we had a dynamic two that could shoot from outside and slash inside next to him. We could've lived with Jake if we had a savvy, playmaking point that found guys in position to score. But both of them together? It's amazing how close that team was to being a tourney team when you consider that backcourt.
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Also remember Duane got injured leaving us without even a solid freshman to spell Derrick
True
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I don't think Buzz intentionally tanked his last season at MU, but I believe there are ways one can tank a season without intending it.
What we can say is that team, unlike Buzz's prior teams, underachieved and played uninspired hoops for large stretches of that season. They often looked lost and confused on the court. And they showed little fight when they fell behind against quality opponents (see: blowout losses to Ohio State and Creighton). Before that season, Buzz had a 7-2 record in OT games. That year, they were 2-4.
Did Buzz set out to lose games that season? No chance.
Did Buzz coach and prepare his players with the same passion and intensity as he had in previous years? I suspect not.
Basketball is a guards game and a team with Thomas and Wilson was not going to be great.
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The real killer was having both Derrick and Jake out there together. We could've lived with Derrick if we had a dynamic two that could shoot from outside and slash inside next to him. We could've lived with Jake if we had a savvy, playmaking point that found guys in position to score. But both of them together? It's amazing how close that team was to being a tourney team when you consider that backcourt.
Yep. Without Vander we were toast.
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Looking at that team's stats is depressing.
Derrick made 1 three all season, shot 44% from the line, was left wide-open all year from 4 feet and out, and couldn't do a drive-and-dish if his life depended on it. Jake scored nine 2-pointers all season (shooting 26%) and had more personal fouls than assists, steals and offensive rebounds combined.
And still, Buzz had so little confidence in their backups that Derrick and Jake were 1-2 on the team in minutes played.
Dawson's eFG% actually was worse than Derrick's. Mayo had a 6-game stretch in Feb in which he didn't make a single 3 while turning it over 3x a game. And so on and so on.
Frankly, after criticizing Buzz for his coaching that year, I look at that stuff and think it's a borderline miracle that we were 17-15.
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Looking at that team's stats is depressing.
Derrick made 1 three all season...
To be fair, he made a bunch of threes right as Buzz called a time out as he shot...
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To be fair, he made a bunch of threes right as Buzz called a time out as he shot...
And one .1 second after the clock ticked 0:00 against DePaul
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Looking at that team's stats is depressing.
Derrick made 1 three all season, shot 44% from the line, was left wide-open all year from 4 feet and out, and couldn't do a drive-and-dish if his life depended on it. Jake scored nine 2-pointers all season (shooting 26%) and had more personal fouls than assists, steals and offensive rebounds combined.
And still, Buzz had so little confidence in their backups that Derrick and Jake were 1-2 on the team in minutes played.
Dawson's eFG% actually was worse than Derrick's. Mayo had a 6-game stretch in Feb in which he didn't make a single 3 while turning it over 3x a game. And so on and so on.
Frankly, after criticizing Buzz for his coaching that year, I look at that stuff and think it's a borderline miracle that we were 17-15.
The amount of times I screamed at the tv as Davante got swarmed by 3 people in the paint as derrick sat at the top of the key and no one even gave him a glance.
God i hated him
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LOL
Isn't it a true statement?
Mo
Cooby
Dwight NBA contract http://www.nba.com/players/dwight/buycks/202779
DJO NBA contract https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsda03.html
Jimmy NBA contract http://www.nba.com/players/jimmy/butler/202710
Lazar NBA contract https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywala01.html
Fulce
That's four, right?
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The amount of times I screamed at the tv as Davante got swarmed by 3 people in the paint as derrick sat at the top of the key and no one even gave him a glance.
God i hated him
I never hated Derrick.
It wasn't HIS fault he played all those minutes.
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The amount of times I screamed at the tv as Davante got swarmed by 3 people in the paint as derrick sat at the top of the key and no one even gave him a glance.
God i hated him
🤔
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Frankly, after criticizing Buzz for his coaching that year, I look at that stuff and think it's a borderline miracle that we were 17-15.
I was thinking the same thing last night while looking at that roster. Especially considering the two "stars" were Jamil Wilson, who didn't seem to find his assertiveness until he was 4 years out of school and Davante Gardner, who was a great scoring option but very one-dimensional.
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I was thinking the same thing last night while looking at that roster. Especially considering the two "stars" were Jamil Wilson, who didn't seem to find his assertiveness until he was 4 years out of school and Davante Gardner, who was a great scoring option but very one-dimensional.
With Blue & McKay on that squad, JWilson & Gardner would have thrived and it would have been another BEast contender/tourney run.
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Isn't it a true statement?
Mo
Cooby
Dwight NBA contract http://www.nba.com/players/dwight/buycks/202779
DJO NBA contract https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsda03.html
Jimmy NBA contract http://www.nba.com/players/jimmy/butler/202710
Lazar NBA contract https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywala01.html
Fulce
That's four, right?
I was laughing at Ners' casual omission of this fact.
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With Blue & McKay on that squad, JWilson & Gardner would have thrived and it would have been another BEast contender/tourney run.
And a healthy Duane.
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'Hating' a player on your own team. Why? Did he ever give less than his best effort? Did he embarrass the school? He couldn't shoot. Give him average shooting ability and he was everything you could want in a PG. Smart kid. Leader. The kind of guy you would want dating your daughter. Bad shooter. Not worth hating.
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And a healthy Duane.
This too, agreed
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'Hating' a player on your own team. Why? Did he ever give less than his best effort? Did he embarrass the school? He couldn't shoot. Give him average shooting ability and he was everything you could want in a PG. Smart kid. Leader. The kind of guy you would want dating your daughter. Bad shooter. Not worth hating.
+1000. From everything I've heard Derrick was one of the finest young men to have worn Warrior blue and gold.
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'Hating' a player on your own team. Why? Did he ever give less than his best effort? Did he embarrass the school? He couldn't shoot. Give him average shooting ability and he was everything you could want in a PG. Smart kid. Leader. The kind of guy you would want dating your daughter. Bad shooter. Not worth hating.
Agree with almost every word of this.
He couldn't create for others, either, which is something I want in a PG. And of course, I'd have liked him to be 6-3 or taller.
But those are nits. "Hating" Derrick is stoopid.
I'm disappointed Buzz didn't have a better option. 100% on Buzz.
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With Blue & McKay on that squad, JWilson & Gardner would have thrived and it would have been another BEast contender/tourney run.
2014 was the year I had pencilled in for a potential Final Four. Just like 2009 before James' injury and 2020.
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That fact that it is not true. Buzz was working his ass off to squeeze as much as he could out of that last roster so he could be in the best position possible for when he job searched.
So you think that the Va Tech gig (with Buzz negotiating his own contract all materialized in 3 days?). Pretty confident those talks were ongoing over the whole season. Buzz and Cronin tight. Cronin tight with AD at Va Tech. Buzz wanted out/BOT nudging him out.
Ever wonder why Buzz pulled Burton in Big East tourney game against Xavier, when he was torching them (with 7 minutes left) and didn't put him back in game till 30 second mark?
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So you think that the Va Tech gig (with Buzz negotiating his own contract all materialized in 3 days?). Pretty confident those talks were ongoing over the whole season. Buzz and Cronin tight. Cronin tight with AD at Va Tech. Buzz wanted out/BOT nudging him out.
Ever wonder why Buzz pulled Burton in Big East tourney game against Xavier, when he was torching them (with 7 minutes left) and didn't put him back in game till 30 second mark?
I bet you know who really killed JFK too. You seem to have all the answers.
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It is amusing to read the naive and simple, feeble-minded takes of my favorite posters here.
Wades: You really think Buzz had to prove himself in an interview coming off 5 straight NCAA's and a Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8?
Anyone really believe Buzz couldn't see playing Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson 30+ together was a train wreck?
People really think Buzz was giving it his all as a coach his last season, when he vastly underperformed expectations for the first time in his career, said he was playing 4 on 5, and chose to play that way all year?
How do you explain Buzz playing Dawson 8 minutes the game after he got his one chance to play 30+ at G'Town and played a key role in helping us win on the road?
Buzz wanted out. Buzz has pride. Buzz certainly isn't above being a spiteful/prideful person. He felt sold out by MU BOT and his parting gift was a big F You on the way out the door.
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So you think that the Va Tech gig (with Buzz negotiating his own contract all materialized in 3 days?). Pretty confident those talks were ongoing over the whole season. Buzz and Cronin tight. Cronin tight with AD at Va Tech. Buzz wanted out/BOT nudging him out.
Ever wonder why Buzz pulled Burton in Big East tourney game against Xavier, when he was torching them (with 7 minutes left) and didn't put him back in game till 30 second mark?
I actually do think about this way too often
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If Buzz intentionally threw away games out of spite, why would anyone still want him at Marquette? That would mean he has no integrity and doesn't really care for the team he is entrusted to oversee. I would question the intelligence and ethics of anyone who thinks he should be the coach of their favorite team if they honestly believed he acted in such a manner.
I don't think he based his decisions on anything but what he thought was best for the basketball team. He has way too much integrity to purposely throw games.
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So you think that the Va Tech gig (with Buzz negotiating his own contract all materialized in 3 days?). Pretty confident those talks were ongoing over the whole season. Buzz and Cronin tight. Cronin tight with AD at Va Tech. Buzz wanted out/BOT nudging him out.
No. I'm sure there were conversations ongoing. Do you really think that Virginia Tech was where Buzz wanted to end up?
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It is amusing to read the naive and simple, feeble-minded takes of my favorite posters here.
Wades: You really think Buzz had to prove himself in an interview coming off 5 straight NCAA's and a Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8?
Anyone really believe Buzz couldn't see playing Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson 30+ together was a train wreck?
People really think Buzz was giving it his all as a coach his last season, when he vastly underperformed expectations for the first time in his career, said he was playing 4 on 5, and chose to play that way all year?
How do you explain Buzz playing Dawson 8 minutes the game after he got his one chance to play 30+ at G'Town and played a key role in helping us win on the road?
Buzz wanted out. Buzz has pride. Buzz certainly isn't above being a spiteful/prideful person. He felt sold out by MU BOT and his parting gift was a big F You on the way out the door.
Wow.
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It is amusing to read the naive and simple, feeble-minded takes of my favorite posters here.
Wades: You really think Buzz had to prove himself in an interview coming off 5 straight NCAA's and a Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8?
Anyone really believe Buzz couldn't see playing Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson 30+ together was a train wreck?
People really think Buzz was giving it his all as a coach his last season, when he vastly underperformed expectations for the first time in his career, said he was playing 4 on 5, and chose to play that way all year?
How do you explain Buzz playing Dawson 8 minutes the game after he got his one chance to play 30+ at G'Town and played a key role in helping us win on the road?
Buzz wanted out. Buzz has pride. Buzz certainly isn't above being a spiteful/prideful person. He felt sold out by MU BOT and his parting gift was a big F You on the way out the door.
Going into that season it was possible that the Texas job might open up after that season. You think the oil and tech money down in Texas, Buzz's home, would be super excited about adding a coach who intentionally threw a season away and/or that Buzz had no interest whatsoever in the possibility of coaching at Texas? You really think Buzz was just dying to end up in Blacksburg, VA? Well, if that's the case then you certainly are smarter than everyone here like you pretend to be Ners, because that is flat out insanity.
I think John Dawson only played 8 minutes the game after he got hot because, even though he was obviously a better player than Andrew Rowsey (lol!), he wasn't a very good basketball player. He was a freshman guard shooting 32% from the field, 27% from 3, turning the ball over nearly as much as he was assisting it, and bringing basically absolutely nothing. He got hot for one game, good for him. He was a bad college basketball player. Not good for Marquette.
After scoring 23 points in 26 minutes the first game of the season, Steve Kerr gave Nick Young 11 minutes in game two. How is that possible, unless Steve Kerr was trying to throw the Warriors' season? It's obvious that Kerr is looking to get out of Golden State and take over the Bucks next season, while flipping off the Warriors front office by ruining the dynasty on his way out. I mean, the guy played Nick Young 11 minutes after he lit up the Rockets! There's no other possibility than he's intentionally tanking this season!
See how stupid that sounds?
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It is amusing to read the naive and simple, feeble-minded takes of my favorite posters here.
Wades: You really think Buzz had to prove himself in an interview coming off 5 straight NCAA's and a Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8?
Anyone really believe Buzz couldn't see playing Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson 30+ together was a train wreck?
People really think Buzz was giving it his all as a coach his last season, when he vastly underperformed expectations for the first time in his career, said he was playing 4 on 5, and chose to play that way all year?
How do you explain Buzz playing Dawson 8 minutes the game after he got his one chance to play 30+ at G'Town and played a key role in helping us win on the road?
Buzz wanted out. Buzz has pride. Buzz certainly isn't above being a spiteful/prideful person. He felt sold out by MU BOT and his parting gift was a big F You on the way out the door.
You often bring an insightful POV to Scoop but sorry to say this is tin foil hat stuff
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Going into that season it was possible that the Texas job might open up after that season. You think the oil and tech money down in Texas, Buzz's home, would be super excited about adding a coach who intentionally threw a season away and/or that Buzz had no interest whatsoever in the possibility of coaching at Texas? You really think Buzz was just dying to end up in Blacksburg, VA? Well, if that's the case then you certainly are smarter than everyone here like you pretend to be Ners, because that is flat out insanity.
I think John Dawson only played 8 minutes the game after he got hot because, even though he was obviously a better player than Andrew Rowsey (lol!), he wasn't a very good basketball player. He was a freshman guard shooting 32% from the field, 27% from 3, turning the ball over nearly as much as he was assisting it, and bringing basically absolutely nothing. He got hot for one game, good for him. He was a bad college basketball player. Not good for Marquette.
After scoring 23 points in 26 minutes the first game of the season, Steve Kerr gave Nick Young 11 minutes in game two. How is that possible, unless Steve Kerr was trying to throw the Warriors' season? It's obvious that Kerr is looking to get out of Golden State and take over the Bucks next season, while flipping off the Warriors front office by ruining the dynasty on his way out. I mean, the guy played Nick Young 11 minutes after he lit up the Rockets! There's no other possibility than he's intentionally tanking this season!
See how stupid that sounds?
Stop it, wades.
Ners knows more than Steve Kerr, too.
Everybody knows Kerr didn't play HS basketball like Ners did.
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Remember a lot of this is mental gymnastics to justify why Ners' favorite coach doesn't agree with Ners' suggested basketball tactics. With Wojo he can simply say "he's a moron." But he can't do that with Buzz. So he says things like "stick it to the administration."
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Going into that season it was possible that the Texas job might open up after that season. You think the oil and tech money down in Texas, Buzz's home, would be super excited about adding a coach who intentionally threw a season away and/or that Buzz had no interest whatsoever in the possibility of coaching at Texas? You really think Buzz was just dying to end up in Blacksburg, VA? Well, if that's the case then you certainly are smarter than everyone here like you pretend to be Ners, because that is flat out insanity.
I think John Dawson only played 8 minutes the game after he got hot because, even though he was obviously a better player than Andrew Rowsey (lol!), he wasn't a very good basketball player. He was a freshman guard shooting 32% from the field, 27% from 3, turning the ball over nearly as much as he was assisting it, and bringing basically absolutely nothing. He got hot for one game, good for him. He was a bad college basketball player. Not good for Marquette.
After scoring 23 points in 26 minutes the first game of the season, Steve Kerr gave Nick Young 11 minutes in game two. How is that possible, unless Steve Kerr was trying to throw the Warriors' season? It's obvious that Kerr is looking to get out of Golden State and take over the Bucks next season, while flipping off the Warriors front office by ruining the dynasty on his way out. I mean, the guy played Nick Young 11 minutes after he lit up the Rockets! There's no other possibility than he's intentionally tanking this season!
See how stupid that sounds?
Considering some of you (in our own fanbase) could not pick up on, and realize, that Buzz was mentally checked out his last year here - I'm sure the observers in Texas weren't keyed into the fact that he was off his game. Nor, would they care, because the guy had 5-straight NCAA tourney appearances at MU - and since he was talking with them/other schools, clearly he wasn't all in at MU.
I got called a tin foil hat guy for asserting that Larry Williams comments to the Journal Sentinel regarding Buzz were awful, out of place, moronic, and not appreciated by Buzz. The working relationship between Buzz and the admin after Cottingham was forced out deteriorated rapidly.
I stand by my opinion that Buzz chose to play the choir boy lineup on the team his last year, since Admin essentially said no more JUCO's, and raised admission standards above NCAA minimums.
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Considering some of you (in our own fanbase) could not pick up on, and realize, that Buzz was mentally checked out his last year here - I'm sure the observers in Texas weren't keyed into the fact that he was off his game. Nor, would they care, because the guy had 5-straight NCAA tourney appearances at MU - and since he was talking with them/other schools, clearly he wasn't all in at MU.
I got called a tin foil hat guy for asserting that Larry Williams comments to the Journal Sentinel regarding Buzz were awful, out of place, moronic, and not appreciated by Buzz. The working relationship between Buzz and the admin after Cottingham was forced out deteriorated rapidly.
I stand by my opinion that Buzz chose to play the choir boy lineup on the team his last year, since Admin essentially said no more JUCO's, and raised admission standards above NCAA minimums.
So you think Texas, or any coach, would be excited about the chance to hire a coach who was checked out and throwing the season?
That sure is interesting.
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So you think Texas, or any coach, would be excited about the chance to hire a coach who was checked out and throwing the season?
That sure is interesting.
I can hear the pitch:
"Yes, Mr. President and board of trustees, it's a brilliant idea to give $3 million a year to a guy who intentionally tanked on his last season because the athletic director hurt his feels."
The fact one person here can maintain slavish devotion to Buzz while also believing he tanked an entire season is just bizarre.
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I can hear the pitch:
"Yes, Mr. President and board of trustees, it's a brilliant idea to give $3 million a year to a guy who intentionally tanked on his last season because the athletic director hurt his feels."
The fact one person here can maintain slavish devotion to Buzz while also believing he tanked an entire season is just bizarre.
And it's odd that he said that Buzz played "the choir boy lineup." Why weren't John Dawson or Deonte Burton "choir boys" in Ners' mind? Neither were JUCOs. Neither had academic issues. Neither have ever been in any sort of legal trouble.
The pretzel logic is astounding.
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Suggesting that any D-1 basketball coach would tank is both dumb and dangerous.
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I'm not trying to have it both ways. Of course Buzz was responsible. He's the head coach. But he had one recruiting class to solve the problem he inherited. Wojo has been at this a little longer.
Inherited or created? I'll grant you the coaching change can be blamed for the departure of Taylor and Nick Williams. One of them leaving actually brought the roster for the coming year back down to 13, and the other was quickly replaced by Jimmy Butler.
4 seniors (James, McNeal, Matthews, Burke)
3 juniors (Hayward, Cubillan, Acker)
5 Sophs (Christopherson, Butler, Fulce, Hazel, Mbakwe)
1 frosh (Otule)
Within a month of becoming coach, Christopherson left, and was quickly replaced by McMorrow, so the roster was still full, including nine players scheduled to be on the roster for his second year.
And I don't understand how you can claim Buzz only had one year of recruiting before his second season. He obviously had two recruiting classes. First year was Otule, Fulce, Butler & McMorrow. Second class included Roseboro, Buycks, Mbao, DjO, Erik Williams, and Maymon.
Look, if Buzz wanted to remake the roster, that's his right. But saying that he inherited a depleted roster for his second year is incorrect.
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And it's odd that he said that Buzz played "the choir boy lineup." Why weren't John Dawson or Deonte Burton "choir boys" in Ners' mind? Neither were JUCOs. Neither had academic issues. Neither have ever been in any sort of legal trouble.
The pretzel logic is astounding.
Your inability to ever see the forest through the trees is astounding. ..
Buzz Williams has exactly 1 year on his head coaching resume where he greatly underperformed expectations. It was his last year at Marquette.
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Your inability to ever see the forest through the trees is astounding.
The trees are the forest.
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Considering some of you (in our own fanbase) could not pick up on, and realize, that Buzz was mentally checked out his last year here - I'm sure the observers in Texas weren't keyed into the fact that he was off his game. Nor, would they care, because the guy had 5-straight NCAA tourney appearances at MU - and since he was talking with them/other schools, clearly he wasn't all in at MU.
I got called a tin foil hat guy for asserting that Larry Williams comments to the Journal Sentinel regarding Buzz were awful, out of place, moronic, and not appreciated by Buzz. The working relationship between Buzz and the admin after Cottingham was forced out deteriorated rapidly.
I stand by my opinion that Buzz chose to play the choir boy lineup on the team his last year, since Admin essentially said no more JUCO's, and raised admission standards above NCAA minimums.
Well, at least you acknowledge that it's only an opinion and not a fact. So congrats, Ners, we're making progress here!
Your inability to ever see the forest through the trees is astounding. Then again, you are a small-minded, sheltered, limited world-view guy, who works in academia.
You resorting to name-calling when you're frustrated that other Scoopers don't share your opinion, that's not progress.
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Your inability to ever see the forest through the trees is astounding. Then again, you are a small-minded, sheltered, limited world-view guy, who works in academia. Therefore, I shouldn't be astounded.
Is works in academia supposed to be an insult? Honest question.
Buzz Williams has exactly 1 year on his head coaching resume where he greatly underperformed expectations. It was his last year at Marquette.
Has anyone said anything different? I think most here would agree that Buzz did great on the court 5/6 years he was here. All coaches have off years even the great ones.
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Is works in academia supposed to be an insult? Honest question.
Has anyone said anything different? I think most here would agree that Buzz did great on the court 5/6 years he was here. All coaches have off years even the great ones.
Let's just say that working in academia is like working in the public sector - generally the best and brightest don't choose a career path where excellence is not rewarded.
Universities offer tenure and safe spaces. It is next to impossible to get fired from a government job. Just an entirely different world, and one radically different than the private sector (which is what actually innovates, creates, and funds the public sector - of which many universities are subsidized by.)
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Let's just say that working in academia is like working in the public sector - generally the best and brightest don't choose a career path where excellence is not rewarded.
Universities offer tenure and safe spaces. It is next to impossible to get fired from a government job. Just an entirely different world, and one radically different than the private sector (which is what actually innovates, creates, and funds the public sector - of which many universities are subsidized by.)
Huh, I'm excellent at my job and I feel like I'm routinely rewarded. I have also fired several people for being bad at their government jobs. I don't work on the academic side of academia but I'm told they often do the research the informs the private sector.
Safe spaces is a term that doesn't actually mean what Breitbart says it means.
Tenure is stupid though.
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https://twitter.com/MUCoachJohnson/status/987411182431678464
"Successful people build each other up. They motivate, inspire, and push each other. Unsuccessful people just hate, blame, and complain."
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Considering some of you (in our own fanbase) could not pick up on, and realize, that Buzz was mentally checked out his last year here - I'm sure the observers in Texas weren't keyed into the fact that he was off his game. Nor, would they care, because the guy had 5-straight NCAA tourney appearances at MU - and since he was talking with them/other schools, clearly he wasn't all in at MU.
I got called a tin foil hat guy for asserting that Larry Williams comments to the Journal Sentinel regarding Buzz were awful, out of place, moronic, and not appreciated by Buzz. The working relationship between Buzz and the admin after Cottingham was forced out deteriorated rapidly.
I stand by my opinion that Buzz chose to play the choir boy lineup on the team his last year, since Admin essentially said no more JUCO's, and raised admission standards above NCAA minimums.
Said no more JUCO's like Jae, had to have a chance to graduate. Admission standards were already above NCAA's, NCAA rose standards and MU rose accordingly.
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Let's just say that working in academia is like working in the public sector - generally the best and brightest don't choose a career path where excellence is not rewarded.
Universities offer tenure and safe spaces. It is next to impossible to get fired from a government job. Just an entirely different world, and one radically different than the private sector (which is what actually innovates, creates, and funds the public sector - of which many universities are subsidized by.)
::)
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Let's just say that working in academia is like working in the public sector - generally the best and brightest don't choose a career path where excellence is not rewarded.
Universities offer tenure and safe spaces. It is next to impossible to get fired from a government job. Just an entirely different world, and one radically different than the private sector (which is what actually innovates, creates, and funds the public sector - of which many universities are subsidized by.)
love that this comes from you...
off the top of my head...in the last few weeks...
visited a restaurant in new orleans a few weeks back...had the best oysters in the world. manager told me the whole story of how the university of auburn figured out how to raise/farm them differently...thus saving an industry that the "private sector" had over harvested
talked a friend three days ago...a doctor...needs risky back surgery...said he's going no where but the uw hospital.
spoke with a friend two days ago...a doctor...worked at UVA for many years...developed a drug that recently got a patent. laughed at how the laws allow the private sector to profit off the university's research...mentioned how hard it is not to take a job with a pharma.
in conversation with my wife and another couple last night...talked about a few professors and teachers that made all the difference in how i view the world and live my life.
in that same conversation...with my friend...in investment banking...good guy...says he has a passion for his work...most in the profession choose it because it's a relatively easy way to make good money if you have an ivy degree.
work in the public sector myself. often get calls from the private sector for more $$$, but don't find the rewards to be as great as doing public service. i don't think or act like i'm better than anyone, but i laugh every time i hear someone say what you just did because you simply don't get what a true reward is.
and just to play politics...you would agree that the military is a gov't job...so you're saying those who put their life on the line for our country are not our best and brightest because they don't choose a career path that pays $$$.
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Suggesting that any D-1 basketball coach would tank is both dumb and dangerous.
Bothering to respond is dumb.
Eating at Arby's is dangerous.
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love that this comes from you...
off the top of my head...in the last week...
visited a restaurant in new orleans a few weeks back...had the best oysters in the world. manager told me the whole story of how the university of auburn figured out how to raise/farm them differently...thus saving an industry that the "private sector" had over harvested
talked a friend three days ago...a doctor...needs risky back surgery...said he's going no where but the uw hospital.
spoke with a friend two days ago...a doctor...worked at UVA for many years...developed a drug that recently got a patent. laughed at how the laws allow the private sector to profit off the university's research...mentioned how hard it is not to take a job with a pharma.
in conversation with my wife and another couple last night...talked about a few professors and teachers that made all the difference in how i view the world and live my life.
in that same conversation...with my friend...in investment banking...good guy...says he has a passion for his work...most in the profession choose it because it's a relatively easy way to make good money if you have an ivy degree.
work in the public sector myself. often get calls from the private sector for more $$$, but don't find the rewards to be as great as doing public service. i don't think or act like i'm better than anyone, but i laugh every time i hear someone say what you just did because you simply don't get what a true reward is.
and just to play politics...you would agree that the military is a gov't job...so you're saying those who put their life on the line for our country are not our best and brightest because they don't choose a career path that pays $$$.
Post of the day, maybe the week.
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Hey, just got back from a meeting. We landed Chartouny AND I have tenure!!!
What a day!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/hoOrAgg.gif)
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Bothering to respond is dumb.
Eating at Arby's is dangerous.
Suggesting eating Arby's is dangerous is dumb and dangerous
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love that this comes from you...
off the top of my head...in the last few weeks...
visited a restaurant in new orleans a few weeks back...had the best oysters in the world. manager told me the whole story of how the university of auburn figured out how to raise/farm them differently...thus saving an industry that the "private sector" had over harvested
talked a friend three days ago...a doctor...needs risky back surgery...said he's going no where but the uw hospital.
spoke with a friend two days ago...a doctor...worked at UVA for many years...developed a drug that recently got a patent. laughed at how the laws allow the private sector to profit off the university's research...mentioned how hard it is not to take a job with a pharma.
in conversation with my wife and another couple last night...talked about a few professors and teachers that made all the difference in how i view the world and live my life.
in that same conversation...with my friend...in investment banking...good guy...says he has a passion for his work...most in the profession choose it because it's a relatively easy way to make good money if you have an ivy degree.
work in the public sector myself. often get calls from the private sector for more $$$, but don't find the rewards to be as great as doing public service. i don't think or act like i'm better than anyone, but i laugh every time i hear someone say what you just did because you simply don't get what a true reward is.
and just to play politics...you would agree that the military is a gov't job...so you're saying those who put their life on the line for our country are not our best and brightest because they don't choose a career path that pays $$$.
Nice post. It's great that you enjoy your work. What line of public service are you in? What type of private sector companies/businesses are calling you for cash - and the cash you have to dole out, where did that cash come from?
Does the public sector innovate anything? Manufacture anything? Subject to competition?
Now, the point made about those doing research in academia (in fields that actually help improve the human condition and nature), that is noble work no doubt. And, it is paid for/subsidized by taxpayers - unless of course taking place at private universities.
Regarding your doctor friend, nothing is stopping him or other researchers from forming their own private company and slogging ahead on their own to get a patent and subsequently profit off of the patent. But, what is stopping him, is the whole notion of having to fund his research and solicit funding for his research, and to build a business that is actually viable/sustainable. Much easier to just do it under the umbrella of tax payer funded universities.
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love that this comes from you...
off the top of my head...in the last few weeks...
visited a restaurant in new orleans a few weeks back...had the best oysters in the world. manager told me the whole story of how the university of auburn figured out how to raise/farm them differently...thus saving an industry that the "private sector" had over harvested
talked a friend three days ago...a doctor...needs risky back surgery...said he's going no where but the uw hospital.
spoke with a friend two days ago...a doctor...worked at UVA for many years...developed a drug that recently got a patent. laughed at how the laws allow the private sector to profit off the university's research...mentioned how hard it is not to take a job with a pharma.
in conversation with my wife and another couple last night...talked about a few professors and teachers that made all the difference in how i view the world and live my life.
in that same conversation...with my friend...in investment banking...good guy...says he has a passion for his work...most in the profession choose it because it's a relatively easy way to make good money if you have an ivy degree.
work in the public sector myself. often get calls from the private sector for more $$$, but don't find the rewards to be as great as doing public service. i don't think or act like i'm better than anyone, but i laugh every time i hear someone say what you just did because you simply don't get what a true reward is.
and just to play politics...you would agree that the military is a gov't job...so you're saying those who put their life on the line for our country are not our best and brightest because they don't choose a career path that pays $$$.
Thank you for this post.
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Ners is certainly becoming annoying faster with each reincarnation. Perhaps we are close to another death, with a long rest before his next rebirth.
Those of us who have worked in the public sector understand the passion, dedication and good works of public employees. We don’t care what the other half thinks.
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https://twitter.com/MUCoachJohnson/status/987411182431678464
"Successful people build each other up. They motivate, inspire, and push each other. Unsuccessful people just hate, blame, and complain."
He is reading scoop.
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Nice post. It's great that you enjoy your work. What line of public service are you in? What type of private sector companies/businesses are calling you for cash - and the cash you have to dole out, where did that cash come from?
Does the public sector innovate anything? Manufacture anything? Subject to competition?
Now, the point made about those doing research in academia (in fields that actually help improve the human condition and nature), that is noble work no doubt. And, it is paid for/subsidized by taxpayers - unless of course taking place at private universities.
Regarding your doctor friend, nothing is stopping him or other researchers from forming their own private company and slogging ahead on their own to get a patent and subsequently profit off of the patent. But, what is stopping him, is the whole notion of having to fund his research and solicit funding for his research, and to build a business that is actually viable/sustainable. Much easier to just do it under the umbrella of tax payer funded universities.
The thing is...I'm not bashing the private sector. I think there is a lot of good in both sectors. You're the one ripping teachers, professors, cops, firefighters, the armed forces, the dnr, and everyone else that works to ensure our nation has a strong foundation. Not a country in the world that has sustained itself without a strong government.
I could get on here and b!tch about the bailouts given to private companies. We've all seen the how, why, and blame game that played out in the great recession. It's one of the negative aspects of the free market in this country...just the same as big govt has its faults.
I've found it's rarely the big players that rip on publlic employees...and usually the wannabe CEO's.
Was just talking with my neighbor the other day during the snow storm...his family's foundation has given millions to our local university because they value what the local public university provides to them. Oh, and when the public plow driver went buy on Sunday morning...he gave a wave. You should try it...feels so much better then giving the finger.
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The thing is...I'm not bashing the private sector. I think there is a lot of good in both sectors. You're the one ripping teachers, professors, cops, firefighters, the armed forces, the dnr, and everyone else that works to ensure our nation has a strong foundation. Not a country in the world that has sustained itself without a strong government.
I could get on here and b!tch about the bailouts given to private companies. We've all seen the how, why, and blame game that played out in the great recession. It's one of the negative aspects of the free market in this country...just the same as big govt has its faults.
I've found it's rarely the big players that rip on publlic employees...and usually the wannabe CEO's.
Was just talking with my neighbor the other day during the snow storm...his family's foundation has given millions to our local university because they value what the local public university provides to them. Oh, and when the public plow driver went buy on Sunday morning...he gave a wave. You should try it...feels so much better then giving the finger.
Classier response than Ners deserved. Well done. Again.
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Ners is certainly becoming annoying faster with each reincarnation. Perhaps we are close to another death, with a long rest before his next rebirth.
Those of us who have worked in the public sector understand the passion, dedication and good works of public employees. We don’t care what the other half thinks.
Not at all surprised...just realized you are subsidized by the private sector. Without the private sector, there are no tax revenues flowing in to fund government. Government is reliant on the private sector, not the other way around.
The thing is...I'm not bashing the private sector. I think there is a lot of good in both sectors. You're the one ripping teachers, professors, cops, firefighters, the armed forces, the dnr, and everyone else that works to ensure our nation has a strong foundation. Not a country in the world that has sustained itself without a strong government.
I could get on here and b!tch about the bailouts given to private companies. We've all seen the how, why, and blame game that played out in the great recession. It's one of the negative aspects of the free market in this country...just the same as big govt has its faults.
I've found it's rarely the big players that rip on publlic employees...and usually the wannabe CEO's.
Was just talking with my neighbor the other day during the snow storm...his family's foundation has given millions to our local university because they value what the local public university provides to them. Oh, and when the public plow driver went buy on Sunday morning...he gave a wave. You should try it...feels so much better then giving the finger.
I'll leave it at this: You are one of the smart ones - choosing to work in the public sector. It is an incredible gig. Great benefits. No accountability to a P&L. Virtually impossible to get fired. Bankers hours. Regulators don't come into your business and change the game and put you out of business. Great gig.
P.S. - I wave to plow drivers, and shake the hands of law enforcement when I see them socially, and thank them for their service. Same with military. You need law and order. The guys who genuinely do put their lives on the line for the rest of us are deserving of our support. Those are tax dollars well spent.
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Ners knowledge of macroeconomics is about as bad as his knowledge of basketball.
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Not at all surprised...just realized you are subsidized by the private sector. Without the private sector, there are no tax revenues flowing in to fund government. Government is reliant on the private sector, not the other way around.
Yeah....I'm sure the private sector never relies on the public sector for training future employees, managing public works, defending their country, enforcing the laws, fighting the fires, doing necessary research...etc, etc, etc.
I'll leave it at this: You are one of the smart ones - choosing to work in the public sector. It is an incredible gig. Great benefits. No accountability to a P&L. Virtually impossible to get fired. Bankers hours. Regulators don't come into your business and change the game and put you out of business. Great gig.
It is a great gig. However not for the reason you've stated. Most public sector jobs are accountable to P&L. I have fired several people from public sector jobs simply because they were bad at them. The whole virtually unfirable thing is a myth outside of unions and tenure. I don't work banker's hours, not even close. I'm consistently in work engagements until 10 pm. Many have banker's hours.....just like many in the private sector do. As for regulators not coming into our business? Government jobs have some of the strictest set of standards that need to be kept in compliance. And those standards change at the drop of a hat, often based on who controls the government.
The two worlds rely on each other. There is no need to bash the other one. Both provide necessary services to make the country work.
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Not at all surprised...just realized you are subsidized by the private sector. Without the private sector, there are no tax revenues flowing in to fund government. Government is reliant on the private sector, not the other way around.
I'll leave it at this: You are one of the smart ones - choosing to work in the public sector. It is an incredible gig. Great benefits. No accountability to a P&L. Virtually impossible to get fired. Bankers hours. Regulators don't come into your business and change the game and put you out of business. Great gig.
P.S. - I wave to plow drivers, and shake the hands of law enforcement when I see them socially, and thank them for their service. Same with military. You need law and order. The guys who genuinely do put their lives on the line for the rest of us are deserving of our support. Those are tax dollars well spent.
No. Government prints the money. It then enters the system through government spending or private banks (via lending). Taxation is a means to control inflation by taking money back out of the system. Deficits do not matter (well they hardly matter - not nearly to the extent that they are demagogued). The public sector does not rely on taxation from the private sector to exist.
Get over yourself.
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Ners knowledge of macroeconomics is about as bad as his knowledge of basketball.
But Ners did take Economics in high school!
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Ners knowledge of macroeconomics is about as bad as his knowledge of basketball.
Ners: The ultimate Dunning-Kruger Effect example.
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Ners: The ultimate Dunning-Kruger Effect example.
LOL
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Classier response than Ners deserved. Well done. Again.
I disagree Mike - I think it is Heisy. I agree with the "classier" comment, however.
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Amusing to me to see how many of my "favorites" here are public sector guys. Makes a ton of sense.
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Amusing to me to see how many of my "favorites" here are public sector guys. Makes a ton of sense.
I feel for ya.
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Ners: The ultimate Dunning-Kruger Effect example.
Scoop has been won for the day. Shut it down until tomorrow.
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Amusing to me to see how many of my "favorites" here are public sector guys. Makes a ton of sense.
I literally allocate capital for a living. My job title could be simply: Capitalist. You just have no clue what you're talking about.
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I literally allocate capital for a living. My job title could be simply: Capitalist. You just have no clue what you're talking about.
Banker?
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No. Government prints the money. It then enters the system through government spending or private banks (via lending). Taxation is a means to control inflation by taking money back out of the system. Deficits do not matter (well they hardly matter - not nearly to the extent that they are demagogued). The public sector does not rely on taxation from the private sector to exist.
Get over yourself.
Feel free to duke it out with this scholar...seems he argues the exact opposite of your point. I'll appreciate your rebuttal.
https://www.mercatus.org/publication/government-spending-101/where-does-government-get-money-it-spends
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Feel free to duke it out with this scholar...seems he argues the exact opposite of your point. I'll appreciate your rebuttal.
https://www.mercatus.org/publication/government-spending-101/where-does-government-get-money-it-spends
Mercatus is funded by Koch dollars. Of course it says the opposite, it's just regurgitating what the Kochs want you to believe.
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Mercatus is funded by Koch dollars. Of course it says the opposite, it's just regurgitating what the Kochs want you to believe.
Ners is a Koch/Breitbar and wouldn't be surprised if Infowars
fan
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Let's just say that working in academia is like working in the public sector - generally the best and brightest don't choose a career path where excellence is not rewarded.
Universities offer tenure and safe spaces. It is next to impossible to get fired from a government job. Just an entirely different world, and one radically different than the private sector (which is what actually innovates, creates, and funds the public sector - of which many universities are subsidized by.)
Broad overstatement. I have worked in both the public and private sectors. Smart people in both, hard working people in both. There is also gross overstatements by each side trying to rip the other side. Whether it is CEO pay the left attacks, or the right attacking generous pensions. Tone it down.
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Ners is a Koch/Breitbar and wouldn't be surprised if Infowars
fan
Wrong. Fiscally conservative. Mostly socially liberal (gay marriage, pro choice, gun control all okay in my world.)
Don't follow political media much at all, had never heard of Mercatus. Know little of Koch brothers.
Couldn't find alternative sources/explanations as to where government derives its funding from, beyond what I'd pointed out: Private sector business/taxpayers. Printing more money isn't the answer.
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Don't follow political media much at all, had never heard of Mercatus. Know little of Koch brothers.
Couldn't find alternative sources/explanations as to where government derives its funding from, beyond what I'd pointed out: Private sector business/taxpayers. Printing more money isn't the answer.
When I post links or read articles from sources I'm not familiar with, I always vet them for accuracy. If it's from a Koch funded think tank, it exists to defraud the American public by redistributing wealth. It's what they do and their reason for existing.
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When I post links or read articles from sources I'm not familiar with, I always vet them for accuracy. If it's from a Koch funded think tank, it exists to defraud the American public by redistributing wealth. It's what they do and their reason for existing.
Certainly welcome your contribution to the topic at hand, and if you can link a more reputable source to outline how the government/public sector get funded - more than happy to read.
Sad day and age we live in where so much of the information available to us is influenced and biased by the wealthy elites - whether that be Soros or Kochs.
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I'm trying to figure out how Ners has been allowed to turn this into a political thread.
As if he wasn't already annoying enough ruining basketball threads with his ignorance on that subject.
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I'm trying to figure out how Ners has been allowed to turn this into a political thread.
As if he wasn't already annoying enough ruining basketball threads with his ignorance on that subject.
So whiny. Per usual, when you don't like the "take" you complain and assign blame on me - when any debate takes two sides. We are exchanging idea and opinions. So sad that when one shares an opinion opposite of your own, your feeble mind submits all of "ignorance."
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So whiny. Per usual, when you don't like the "take" you complain and assign blame on me - when any debate takes two sides. We are exchanging idea and opinions. So sad that when one shares an opinion opposite of your own, your feeble mind submits all of "ignorance."
This is how the world is today. My opinion and anyone with a differing one is pounded, or worse. But that doesn't change you have done the same thing, I'm sure we all have. Whomever shouts loudest wins? Whomever denigrates the other side wins?
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So whiny. Per usual, when you don't like the "take" you complain and assign blame on me - when any debate takes two sides. We are exchanging idea and opinions. So sad that when one shares an opinion opposite of your own, your feeble mind submits all of "ignorance."
You turned it into a public sector vs private sector debate, which had absolutely nothing to do with the subject that had been discussed. You hurled insults. You made it political. And now you are trying to shift goalposts to deflect from your own "crimes."
But again, it's always everybody else. Never the guy you see when you look in the mirror.
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You turned it into a public sector vs private sector debate, which had absolutely nothing to do with the subject that had been discussed. You hurled insults. You made it political. And now you are trying to shift goalposts to deflect from your own "crimes."
But again, it's always everybody else. Never the guy you see when you look in the mirror.
Here's the deal: Sultan hurls insults my way frequently, much like you, T-Smith34, and the rest of the public sector clan. Usually I let them slide. I chose to respond in kind in this thread. Sultan has taken multiple shots at me and the business I started, many times here. I finally responded in kind. He's a small time, university, PR guy. Never employed or created one job.
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So whiny. Per usual, when you don't like the "take" you complain and assign blame on me - when any debate takes two sides. We are exchanging idea and opinions. So sad that when one shares an opinion opposite of your own, your feeble mind submits all of "ignorance."
This didn't start as a debate. It started with you using another poster's livelihood as an insult.
Here's the deal: Sultan hurls insults my way frequently, much like you, T-Smith34, and the rest of the public sector clan. Usually I let them slide. I chose to respond in kind in this thread. Sultan has taken multiple shots at me and the business I started, many times here. I finally responded in kind. He's a small time, university, PR guy. Never employed or created one job.
Sultan definitely hurls insults at you frequently. No denying that. But in this thread this started because he asked you why you thought Deonte Burton and John Dawson weren't "choir boys", a reasonable question given your premise that Buzz played other players over them because they were "choir boys." (I am curious about the answer to this because by all accounts Deonte and Dawson were great representatives of the university).
He did say it was pretzel logic, but I don't know if that would even qualify as an insult. If it did, its certainly not on the same level as "small-minded, sheltered, limited world-view guy, who works in academia."
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Wrong. Fiscally conservative. Mostly socially liberal (gay marriage, pro choice, gun control all okay in my world.)
Don't follow political media much at all, had never heard of Mercatus. Know little of Koch brothers.
Couldn't find alternative sources/explanations as to where government derives its funding from, beyond what I'd pointed out: Private sector business/taxpayers. Printing more money isn't the answer.
If you do not know the sources don't use them. Linking sources you don't know is not smart.
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Here's the deal: Sultan hurls insults my way frequently, much like you, T-Smith34, and the rest of the public sector clan. Usually I let them slide. I chose to respond in kind in this thread. Sultan has taken multiple shots at me and the business I started, many times here. I finally responded in kind. He's a small time, university, PR guy. Never employed or created one job.
Lord 🙄
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Let's just say that working in academia is like working in the public sector - generally the best and brightest don't choose a career path where excellence is not rewarded.
Universities offer tenure and safe spaces. It is next to impossible to get fired from a government job. Just an entirely different world, and one radically different than the private sector (which is what actually innovates, creates, and funds the public sector - of which many universities are subsidized by.)
I agree with this analysis.
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Here's the deal: Sultan hurls insults my way frequently, much like you, T-Smith34, and the rest of the public sector clan. Usually I let them slide. I chose to respond in kind in this thread. Sultan has taken multiple shots at me and the business I started, many times here. I finally responded in kind. He's a small time, university, PR guy. Never employed or created one job.
I agree with this analysis.
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I agree with this analysis.
I agree with this analysis.
I’m shocked.
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Here's the deal: Sultan hurls insults my way frequently, much like you, T-Smith34, and the rest of the public sector clan. Usually I let them slide. I chose to respond in kind in this thread. Sultan has taken multiple shots at me and the business I started, many times here. I finally responded in kind. He's a small time, university, PR guy. Never employed or created one job.
You're quite fragile, aren't you?
It's quite ironic - actually, the better word is hypocritical - that you accuse others of being whiny.
I do get a kick out of you labeling me as being part of the "public sector clan," as I never worked a day in the public sector in my life. Once again, Ners operating out of ignorance.
And - again - YOU turned this into a political thread. Nobody else did. But of course, you can't admit it.
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Here's the deal: Sultan hurls insults my way frequently, much like you, T-Smith34, and the rest of the public sector clan. Usually I let them slide. I chose to respond in kind in this thread. Sultan has taken multiple shots at me and the business I started, many times here. I finally responded in kind. He's a small time, university, PR guy. Never employed or created one job.
Listen Dunning-Kruger, as usual you have no f'ing idea what you are talking about, but you're too ignorant to realize it. I literally run my 34,000 person firm's entire portfolio of business with 2 of the Fortune 5 (five, not five hundred) companies. I also fully understand the importance of the public sector and strongly support it. Union workers freakin' built this country.
The propaganda you subscribe to exists for only one reason: public sector employees and union members vote majority against a certain political party, therefore that party has engaged in a long-running effort to turn public opinion against those sectors. If those voters began voting majority for your party, the propaganda attacks would instantly cease. It has nothing to do with "efficiency" or "creating jobs", it is all about the money and votes.
Perhaps you should stick to the only topic you know anything about, your glory years as a high schooler, ok Uncle Rico?
Dumbass.
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Listen Dunning-Kruger, as usual you have no f'ing idea what you are talking about, but you're too ignorant to realize it. I literally run my 34,000 person firm's entire portfolio of business with 2 of the Fortune 5 (five, not five hundred) companies. I also fully understand the importance of the public sector and strongly support it. Union workers freakin' built this country.
The propaganda you subscribe to exists for only one reason: public sector employees and union members vote majority against a certain political party, therefore that party has engaged in a long-running effort to turn public opinion against those sectors. If those voters began voting majority for your party, the propaganda attacks would instantly cease. It has nothing to do with "efficiency" or "creating jobs", it is all about the money and votes.
Perhaps you should stick to the only topic you know anything about, your glory years as a high schooler, ok Uncle Rico?
Dumbass.
Analysis.....
First Paragraph......My weeney is bigger than your weeney....Not needed.....
Second Paragraph.....Pretty much spot on......
Ending......"Dumbass snowflake" would be better ending......
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Listen Dunning-Kruger, as usual you have no f'ing idea what you are talking about, but you're too ignorant to realize it. I literally run my 34,000 person firm's entire portfolio of business with 2 of the Fortune 5 (five, not five hundred) companies. I also fully understand the importance of the public sector and strongly support it. Union workers freakin' built this country.
The propaganda you subscribe to exists for only one reason: public sector employees and union members vote majority against a certain political party, therefore that party has engaged in a long-running effort to turn public opinion against those sectors. If those voters began voting majority for your party, the propaganda attacks would instantly cease. It has nothing to do with "efficiency" or "creating jobs", it is all about the money and votes.
Perhaps you should stick to the only topic you know anything about, your glory years as a high schooler, ok Uncle Rico?
Dumbass.
The public sector is way too large and is usurping value from the country. The tax and spend policies are nothing more than corrupt payoffs to further this parasitic behavior.
Unions had a viable role back at the turn of the 19th century as an offset to sweat shops. Today they add no value and absolutely have no place in the public sector. In our company We pay our non union employees the same as we pay union and get much better productivity and less bogus health claims from non union. Union guys just looking to feather their own nest. Will likely sell our union related location one day and move to another state.
I was also in the education world for many years on the board level and can testify with confidence that there is enormous institutionalized corruption . Public Education is a great gig if you can get it with lifetime raises, lucrative pensions , can’t get fired and everything rises faster than inflation. The rest of society has to live under a completely different set of rules.
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In before the lock.
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Hey, just got back from a meeting. We landed Chartouny AND I have tenure!!!
What a day!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/hoOrAgg.gif)
Hey, congrats! I've avoided this thread like the plague for obvious reasons so missed this.
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