John Dawson

[NersEllenson]

This is really top notch, middle school level insulting right here.

Thanks Sultan.  But why are you in the middle of this discussion right now?  

Brew asked for an insult, and I gave him a nice a little shot on the Star Wars love - as well as his genius take on last season's team being better off with Derrick at the point than Cadougan.  LOL

[brewcity77]

LOL - Yeah, go check out his awesome posts in the Star Wars thread.  MEGA NERD!  To each their own of course.  Different strokes for different folks.  While some of us played with basketballs, others were playing with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker action figures.

What you have just typed is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in this rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything resembling a rational argument as to your "superior knowledge". Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

One thing is for sure...Ners is the easiest guy to troll in the history of the Internet

[FLwarriorENT]

On this board, it's really easy to tell which people peaked in high school, like Ners for example.

[NersEllenson]

What you have just typed is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in this rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything resembling a rational argument as to your "superior knowledge". Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

One thing is for sure...Ners is the easiest guy to troll in the history of the Internet

LOL.  Touche Brew.  Touche.

And btw:  Todd Mayo = Vander Blue.  Last year's team wasn't missing Vander nearly as much as it was Junior.  

And really, you should take a little of your own advice: Stop trying to manufacture praises of Derrick. (With regard to his basketball talents at this level.)

If you and your other 7 Star Wars buddies would stop trying to put lipstick on a pig, perhaps the other side wouldn't need to be as critical of Derrick.

[brewcity77]

LOL.  Touche Brew.  Touche.

And btw:  Todd Mayo = Vander Blue.  Last year's team wasn't missing Vander nearly as much as it was Junior.  

And really, you should take a little of your own advice: Stop trying to manufacture praises of Derrick. (With regard to his basketball talents at this level.)

If you and your other 7 Star Wars buddies would stop trying to put lipstick on a pig, perhaps the other side wouldn't need to be as critical of Derrick.

If Todd was equal to Vander, we would have been a tourney team last year. Vander won games for us, Todd lost games for us. Further, Todd exacerbated things with off-court issues that finally got him kicked off the team this year.

That said, had Vander come back, it would have solved both problems. Vander would have been playing with Todd rather than instead of him. Vander would have been a better backcourt partner for Derrick, Todd, and Jake each individually than any of those players was for each other.

As I posted before the page turn, Derrick has his assets and he has his flaws. He's not as good as I hoped he would be, but he sure as hell isn't as bad as you try to paint him to be. Just because you try to smear ink on Derrick's resume doesn't make you Picasso.

[brewcity77]

Brew asked for an insult, and I gave him a nice a little shot on the Star Wars love - as well as his genius take on last season's team being better off with Derrick at the point than Cadougan.  LOL

Just to cover things, if this helps...

• I watch soccer and get bored watching American football
• When I was at Marquette, I had a foot-high multi-colored mohawk
• Not only did I watch Star Wars, I also have read Star Wars novels
• I also read comic books
• I only played football and basketball up to 8th grade, and after a year of cross-country in high school didn't play any more sports
• I am a big Joss Whedon fan, not just his work on Avengers, but going back to Firefly, Angel, and Buffy
• I still like to read books, both fiction and non-fiction.
• I enjoy a good romantic comedy, and am a huge fan of Love Actually
• I read Game of Thrones before I watched it
• While I never followed a band on tour, I have traveled cross-country to go see punk rock shows
• I like carving pumpkins, and we don't even have kids
• I do virtually all the cooking in our house and most of the cleaning

.
If any of these things make you feel better about yourself and more manly, then have fun with them. Also, if you think that they give you superior basketball knowledge, know that you are a clueless idiot because none of these have any bearing on basketball.

[Galway Eagle]

Just to cover things, if this helps...

• I watch soccer and get bored watching American football
• When I was at Marquette, I had a foot-high multi-colored mohawk
• Not only did I watch Star Wars, I also have read Star Wars novels
• I also read comic books
• I only played football and basketball up to 8th grade, and after a year of cross-country in high school didn't play any more sports
• I am a big Joss Whedon fan, not just his work on Avengers, but going back to Firefly, Angel, and Buffy
• I still like to read books, both fiction and non-fiction.
• I enjoy a good romantic comedy, and am a huge fan of Love Actually
• I read Game of Thrones before I watched it

[*]While I never followed a band on tour, I have traveled cross-country to go see punk rock shows

• I like carving pumpkins, and we don't even have kids
• I do virtually all the cooking in our house and most of the cleaning

.
If any of these things make you feel better about yourself and more manly, then have fun with them. Also, if you think that they give you superior basketball knowledge, know that you are a clueless idiot because none of these have any bearing on basketball.

Impressive you stayed with that at MU. I was super into punk in High school and Marquette took that out of me.

[NersEllenson]

If Todd was equal to Vander, we would have been a tourney team last year. Vander won games for us, Todd lost games for us. Further, Todd exacerbated things with off-court issues that finally got him kicked off the team this year.

That said, had Vander come back, it would have solved both problems. Vander would have been playing with Todd rather than instead of him. Vander would have been a better backcourt partner for Derrick, Todd, and Jake each individually than any of those players was for each other.

As I posted before the page turn, Derrick has his assets and he has his flaws. He's not as good as I hoped he would be, but he sure as hell isn't as bad as you try to paint him to be. Just because you try to smear ink on Derrick's resume doesn't make you Picasso.

I can agree it would have been much better to have Vander playing alongside of Todd last year (with Derrick).  Of course much better than Jake.

However, in the E8 season, Todd had little impact due to missing first half of the season, and not playing much once eligible.  That team had same guys on it other than Cadougan and Lockett from last year's team.

Todd, last season, hardly did things to "lose games for us."  He rallied us many times, hit many clutch shots, just as many as Vander did - if not more - while having to play alongside Derrick and Jake.  Much more difficult to succeed with them as a backcourt pairing than what Vander got as a junior with Lockett and Cadougan.  Todd's stats as a junior were every bit as good as Vander's and in many cases slightly better.  That's part of my point - Todd essentially replaced what Vander was to the E8 team - yet last year's team then was "down" Cadougan and Lockett.  I don't believe missing Lockett was the difference between being an E8 team and missing the NIT.

As for Derrick - we obviously disagree.  I feel you greatly embellish his play, you feel I exaggerate his deficiencies.  Fair enough.

[NersEllenson]

Just to cover things, if this helps...

• I watch soccer and get bored watching American football
• When I was at Marquette, I had a foot-high multi-colored mohawk
• Not only did I watch Star Wars, I also have read Star Wars novels
• I also read comic books
• I only played football and basketball up to 8th grade, and after a year of cross-country in high school didn't play any more sports
• I am a big Joss Whedon fan, not just his work on Avengers, but going back to Firefly, Angel, and Buffy
• I still like to read books, both fiction and non-fiction.
• I enjoy a good romantic comedy, and am a huge fan of Love Actually
• I read Game of Thrones before I watched it
• While I never followed a band on tour, I have traveled cross-country to go see punk rock shows
• I like carving pumpkins, and we don't even have kids
• I do virtually all the cooking in our house and most of the cleaning

.
If any of these things make you feel better about yourself and more manly, then have fun with them. Also, if you think that they give you superior basketball knowledge, know that you are a clueless idiot because none of these have any bearing on basketball.

Good to have a wide variety of hobbies and interests.  Happy for you that you find many things in life that you enjoy.  You make a good number of basketball related points and posts Brew - and demonstrate overall good knowledge of the game.  That said, we have and will always greatly disagree on Derrick and his pros/cons toward the end result on the basketball court.

Here's a question:
Given that Duane and Carlino both show they can be effective as primary ball handlers/PG's - do you not feel Derrick's role should be greatly diminished?  Yet last night he got 32 minutes while Duane and Carlino got 30 and 38 respectively?  Would you not rather see JJJ/Cohen or Dawson get a good chunk of those minutes - guys who can all shoot it better?  Is Derrick's defense THAT good that it warrants 32?  I just don't see it - Derrick is a good defender - but by no means great or so good that it offsets his warts offensively.

[Nevada233]

Its safe to say this thread has got more attention than the last game and will certainly get more than Jerrone Maymons old team tonite.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Given that Duane and Carlino both show they can be effective as primary ball handlers/PG's

Duane has done his best work of the season off the ball. He has only had a handful of possessions when he was the point. Starters based on work this far should be Carlino at point, Duane at SG, Derrick backing up Carlino and JJJ backing up Duane.

[BallBoy]

I will state again that Derrick Wilson is not a good point guard. He was a problem with last years team and he will lose PT this year to Carlino and Duane.

With that said, Wilson wasn't the problem with last year's team. I agree that Junior would have made the team better but only maybe NIT better.

1.  Senior leadership - neither Wilson or Gardner took the reigns of the team last year.  They didn't get angry when the team wasn't producing. Both played like someone else will step up.
2.  As good as Gardner was, an extremely efficient player within 5 ft. He needed to be within 5ft to be effective.  As much as people blame Derrick, Gardner wasn't able to change his game to prevent the guards from sagging. He needed a guard who could get him the ball in his sweet spot. Not something that says he could do it on his own. His defense was also limited as he had a hard time with athletic bigs.
3.  Mayo had no desire to play in a system. When he was in the game it was Mayo on five on offense. That is not a winning strategy and it is also why he didn't get minutes.  It works for short stretches but the defense will adjust and shut him down.
4.  Jake couldn't create his own shot either. He stood around a good amount
5.  OTule was not great on offense but was a much better defender to DG.
6.  Buzz tried to find something that worked including Oxtule which didn't work because DG and OTule would both get exposed on the perimeter.
7.  As much as you say Mayo = vander it isn't true. Mayo was close to 1.5 years older than Blue yet mayo's freshman yr was a year later than Blue's. When you compare at the same age Vander is much better. When Vander left the team got worse, when Mayo left the team got better.

[NersEllenson]

I will state again that Derrick Wilson is not a good point guard. He was a problem with last years team and he will lose PT this year to Carlino and Duane.

With that said, Wilson wasn't the problem with last year's team. I agree that Junior would have made the team better but only maybe NIT better.

1.  Senior leadership - neither Wilson or Gardner took the reigns of the team last year.  They didn't get angry when the team wasn't producing. Both played like someone else will step up.
2.  As good as Gardner was, an extremely efficient player within 5 ft. He needed to be within 5ft to be effective.  As much as people blame Derrick, Gardner wasn't able to change his game to prevent the guards from sagging. He needed a guard who could get him the ball in his sweet spot. Not something that says he could do it on his own. His defense was also limited as he had a hard time with athletic bigs.
3.  Mayo had no desire to play in a system. When he was in the game it was Mayo on five on offense. That is not a winning strategy and it is also why he didn't get minutes.  It works for short stretches but the defense will adjust and shut him down.
4.  Jake couldn't create his own shot either. He stood around a good amount
5.  OTule was not great on offense but was a much better defender to DG.
6.  Buzz tried to find something that worked including Oxtule which didn't work because DG and OTule would both get exposed on the perimeter.
7.  As much as you say Mayo = vander it isn't true. Mayo was close to 1.5 years older than Blue yet mayo's freshman yr was a year later than Blue's. When you compare at the same age Vander is much better. When Vander left the team got worse, when Mayo left the team got better.

"Leadership" can't overcome playing 4 on 5 at the O-end.  Gardner showed many times (Syracuse game comes to mind) he was very effective at high post hitting FT line jumper.

Gardner COULDN'T operate last season due to the backcourt Buzz played max minutes.  Same with Jamil.  Seriously, for about the 100th time - you are a coach and face a lineup of:  Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil and Otule - who are you taking away?

You can hate on Mayo the person (and btw, Vander wasn't an angel while at MU by any stretch of the imagination), but you don't have to hate the player through that bias.  Mayo assisted at a better rate last season than Vander ever did (so he did share the ball better than Vander), yet he was surrounded by far less talented offensive players (Derrick and Jake), which should result in fewer assists.  Plus, who did you want taking shots on that team last year???  I sure was grateful Todd "showed leadership" and took matters into his own times at hands.  But then again, that makes him have "no desire to play in a system."  Yet you lament Gardner and Jamil not getting angry and taking the bull by the horns.

How many contradictions can you make in one post?

[BallBoy]

Here's a question:
Given that Duane and Carlino both show they can be effective as primary ball handlers/PG's - do you not feel Derrick's role should be greatly diminished?  Yet last night he got 32 minutes while Duane and Carlino got 30 and 38 respectively?  Would you not rather see JJJ/Cohen or Dawson get a good chunk of those minutes - guys who can all shoot it better?  Is Derrick's defense THAT good that it warrants 32?  I just don't see it - Derrick is a good defender - but by no means great or so good that it offsets his warts offensively.

Why has two coaching staffs decided to play him that much?  Because they feel he gives them the best chance to win.

John hasn't shown he should get more minutes to the coaches and to be honest JJJ hasn't shown he is the guy either. I would like him to be but how is it that 3 "PGs" got nearly all of the time. Cohen is a freshman and will get better with age. He might get better minutes once he adds bulk.

[Nevada233]

Why has two coaching staffs decided to play him that much?  Because they feel he gives them the best chance to win.

John hasn't shown he should get more minutes to the coaches and to be honest JJJ hasn't shown he is the guy either. I would like him to be but how is it that 3 "PGs" got nearly all of the time. Cohen is a freshman and will get better with age. He might get better minutes once he adds bulk.

Lol. @ He gives us the best chance to win.

[BallBoy]

Lol. @ He gives us the best chance to win.

Take it up with Buzz and Wojo. For as much as you and Ners rip on him he still plays. As a founding member of the tin foil club, you believe this has more to do more with getting back at the administration, reliving Wojo's glory days, the winter solstice, proper sweeping technique of gym floors and anything else which says it can't be that two coaches staffs are saying he provides more value then the next guy. Then again, those evil coaches don't like the next guy and want him to transfer.

It is a very simple fact. Two coaching staffs are saying Derrick Wilson makes us better than not playing him.  I would love it if that wasn't the case but I don't make up stuff to make me feel better about the team over the last two years. Maybe when Luke is ready to play he can push everyone up a position and Derrick's time is limited.

[brewcity77]

Wojo hasn't tan a traditional point guard, instead running more a 2 PG, 2 wing, 1 forward setup at most times. That means at virtually all times we'll have 2 of Derrick, Carlino, and Duane out there. Those three will play 80 minutes at the two point positions. Ideally, I think that means 30 mpg each for Duane and Carlino and 20 for Derrick. As both Carlino and Duane can play up at the wings, either could get more than 30 any night.

The question then becomes whether the others you mention can play down. I don't think any of those guys can play down, and each has their own flaws. Jajuan gambles a lot for steals, which takes him out of position on defense, and his shot selection can be questionable. Sandy is also a defensive liability, and also has shot selection issues. That will all hopefully come in time. But right now I'd rather see periods with all three points on the floor with Duane or Carlino playing up than periods where 2 of them are on the bench.

As far as Dawson, there's no way to say definitively what he would or wouldn't bring. Based on his history, the excellent Georgetown game seems to be the outlier. I don't believe any of these coaches have conspiratorial reasons to block Dawson. Everything I've heard is that he simply isn't good enough in practice to take minutes. Nothing against John, but it is what it is.

The real problem though is that Derrick is our only plus defender. He's like a quarterback on defense, even in the zone making sure guys are in position. Matt's feet are too slow and hee commits too many fouls after he's already beat. Duane and Cohen just don't have the experience yet. Burton and Jajuan both gamble on steals too much and neither are close to even being average defenders. Steve clearly is overmatched by most centers and forwards. Of our entire lineup, only Juan is even an average defender.

If we had numerous other good defenders it might be a different story. We don't. The analogy was always playing 4-on-5 with Derrick. But when it comes to decent defenders, even with Derrick we are playing 2-on-5. The zone is helping. The deficiencies of guys like Carlino and Jajuan have been diminished. But it's still nice to have one above average defender out there even if he's inefficient on offense.

[keefe]

Just to cover things, if this helps...

• I watch soccer and get bored watching American football
• When I was at Marquette, I had a foot-high multi-colored mohawk
• Not only did I watch Star Wars, I also have read Star Wars novels
• I also read comic books
• I only played football and basketball up to 8th grade, and after a year of cross-country in high school didn't play any more sports
• I am a big Joss Whedon fan, not just his work on Avengers, but going back to Firefly, Angel, and Buffy
• I still like to read books, both fiction and non-fiction.
• I enjoy a good romantic comedy, and am a huge fan of Love Actually
• I read Game of Thrones before I watched it
• While I never followed a band on tour, I have traveled cross-country to go see punk rock shows
• I like carving pumpkins, and we don't even have kids
• I do virtually all the cooking in our house and most of the cleaning

.
If any of these things make you feel better about yourself and more manly, then have fun with them. Also, if you think that they give you superior basketball knowledge, know that you are a clueless idiot because none of these have any bearing on basketball.

What a renaissance man

[brewcity77]

Boiled down simply, Derrick is our ONLY above average defender. Juan is average, everyone else is poor defensively. Derrick's offense may be poor, but we can surround him with 4 players to mute that deficiency. However Derrick is the only player on the entire team that can mute the defensive deficiencies of the 4 guys he's on the floor with.

[BallBoy]

"Leadership" can't overcome playing 4 on 5 at the O-end.  Gardner showed many times (Syracuse game comes to mind) he was very effective at high post hitting FT line jumper.

Gardner COULDN'T operate last season due to the backcourt Buzz played max minutes.  Same with Jamil.  Seriously, for about the 100th time - you are a coach and face a lineup of:  Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil and Otule - who are you taking away?

You can hate on Mayo the person (and btw, Vander wasn't an angel while at MU by any stretch of the imagination), but you don't have to hate the player through that bias.  Mayo assisted at a better rate last season than Vander ever did (so he did share the ball better than Vander), yet he was surrounded by far less talented offensive players (Derrick and Jake), which should result in fewer assists.  Plus, who did you want taking shots on that team last year???  I sure was grateful Todd "showed leadership" and took matters into his own times at hands.  But then again, that makes him have "no desire to play in a system."  Yet you lament Gardner and Jamil not getting angry and taking the bull by the horns.

How many contradictions can you make in one post?

My point to you is that it is a team game.  We had a team if mismatched players with very distinct weaknesses. All you can see or want to see is one of them. Would Junior have made the team better yes but would that have radically changed the outcome...no. I have given you multiple examples of our challenges but you can only go back to one thing.

Please point out one contradiction.

[GooooMarquette]

Yeah, my bad - as a sophomore, Derrick's O-Rating was .08 better than John's as a freshman.  Attack the argument:  Why do you think Buzz's first 5 teams averaged an team O-Rating of 26th in the country, and then last season we were almost 4 times WORSE than any of Buzz's first 5 teams?  Did Buzz just suddenly forget how to coach offense??

I explained Derrick's O-Rating numbers - it rewards not turning the ball over above all else.  Why does he not turn the ball over?? Because he RARELY makes plays/plays aggressively.  (Which is the EXACT opposite of what a PG should be.)  He's your classic game manager QB at best - he's never going to led you on a game winning drive in the 4th quarter in the 2 minute drill so to speak.  He's the equivalent of Trent Dilfer on the Baltimore Ravens the year he won his Super Bowl - Hey Trent - just don't F it up, because our defense is so incredible, you won't have to score more than 10 points.  Problem is, we aren't good enough defensively (even with Derrick's contributions) to overcome all the warts he presents on the O-end.

Attack the argument?  OK.  Your basic premise that the ORtg overemphasizes not turning the ball over is flawed.  Keeping possession of the ball is critically important, even if it means a slower offense.  Run and push the ball all you want...but if you give it away, you simply aren't going to score.  Pretty hard to overemphasize that.

And for what it's worth, Derrick IS pushing the ball more this season and attacking the defense...and he still has lower tpg numbers than Matt and Duane.  How about that - upping the offensive pressure while still protecting the ball?

And that's just offense.  Derrick is not a great defender, but he is probably the best on-ball defender we have right now. 

[mattyv1908]

Duane has done his best work of the season off the ball. He has only had a handful of possessions when he was the point. Starters based on work this far should be Carlino at point, Duane at SG, Derrick backing up Carlino and JJJ backing up Duane.

Except that this team really needs three if not four guards on the court at all times given our lack of post players.  You're asking Taylor who is a natural 4 to play the 5.  Anderson is a 3 who's playing 4 if not 5 at times.  Burton is a 3 who's playing a ton of 4.

The reality is that three of our guards need to be on the floor at all times.  Derrick Wilson is one of the best three guards on the team when you factor his overall game compared to JJJ at this time.

I'M NOT A DERRICK WILSON SUPPORTER.  It's just the truth.  Obviously we all would hope that Johnson develops over the year and he is indeed the better overall player at some point, but as of now Derrick is a better player.

[mattyv1908]

Attack the argument?  OK.  Your basic premise that the ORtg overemphasizes not turning the ball over is flawed.  Keeping possession of the ball is critically important, even if it means a slower offense.  Run and push the ball all you want...but if you give it away, you simply aren't going to score.  Pretty hard to overemphasize that.

And for what it's worth, Derrick IS pushing the ball more this season and attacking the defense...and he still has lower tpg numbers than Matt and Duane.  How about that - upping the offensive pressure while still protecting the ball?

And that's just offense.  Derrick is not a great defender, but he is probably the best on-ball defender we have right now. 

Thank you for reiterating ORtg because while I do like Ners, he has no comprehension of how that statistic is measured.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I could use a vacation

gonna hump the old lady at the Sybaris again this year?

[Texas Western]

I will state again that Derrick Wilson is not a good point guard. He was a problem with last years team and he will lose PT this year to Carlino and Duane.

With that said, Wilson wasn't the problem with last year's team. I agree that Junior would have made the team better but only maybe NIT better.

1.  Senior leadership - neither Wilson or Gardner took the reigns of the team last year.  They didn't get angry when the team wasn't producing. Both played like someone else will step up.
2.  As good as Gardner was, an extremely efficient player within 5 ft. He needed to be within 5ft to be effective.  As much as people blame Derrick, Gardner wasn't able to change his game to prevent the guards from sagging. He needed a guard who could get him the ball in his sweet spot. Not something that says he could do it on his own. His defense was also limited as he had a hard time with athletic bigs.
3.  Mayo had no desire to play in a system. When he was in the game it was Mayo on five on offense. That is not a winning strategy and it is also why he didn't get minutes.  It works for short stretches but the defense will adjust and shut him down.
4.  Jake couldn't create his own shot either. He stood around a good amount
5.  OTule was not great on offense but was a much better defender to DG.
6.  Buzz tried to find something that worked including Oxtule which didn't work because DG and OTule would both get exposed on the perimeter.
7.  As much as you say Mayo = vander it isn't true. Mayo was close to 1.5 years older than Blue yet mayo's freshman yr was a year later than Blue's. When you compare at the same age Vander is much better. When Vander left the team got worse, when Mayo left the team got better.

You make a lot of good points. The only thing I would add is when you take the points you make, and then add in Buzz's crazy substitution pattern, it was a prescription for failure. I think Derrick was the constant in this unsavory brew do to his max minutes. Now we are in a new year and he is getting max minutes again, but the remainder of the mix is more stable and has room for improvement, which should hopefully result in some positive things.