Hill and Pierce to VT per Evan Daniels.

[GGGG]

I suppose, but I'm literally saying that he is an alum because he has enough years of attending MU and credits earned to qualify per MU's definition of alumnae status.

He had enough credits to be considered a woman?   

[ChicosBailBonds]

He had enough credits to be considered a woman?   

Women's Studies major

[Lennys Tap]

Easy Lenny. The University is at fault too. They decided to let Buzz recruit Crowder. That was on them. But afterwards they decided afterwards that they didn't want it to happen in the future. Buzz was not happy with that decision but had to live with it. And yes it was a rule and it was broken. They knew going in that Jae Crowder had gone to an unaccreditted JUCO his freshman year. This means that none of his credits would transfer in. He only had one year of coursework done. That left three years worth of work to do and only two years to complete it. That is an APR no no. The university allowed it once but wasn't going to allow it again.

At fault, too? It's ALL on the university. They alone decide who can and who cannot be admitted. If they had a "rule" then they broke it. Basketball coaches scour the country looking for talent. A lot of that talent is borderline (or worse) academically. If the guy is good enough (Wade or Crowder, eg.,) coaches ask the powers that be to make an exception and grant them admission. If TC or Buzz altered transcripts to try to get their guys in they broke a rule. Otherwise what you said is 100% wrong. The admission of Dwyane and Jae was totally up to the school. I have no doubt that there came a time when MU told Buzz no more Crowders (Wades were eliminated by rule when we entered the BigEast) just as they told him no more Humphrey for freshmen and sophomores and higher than NCAA requirements for incoming freshmen) and I have no doubt that Buzz wasn't happy about it. No coach would be.

[bilsu]

I think Wojo can be selective this year, since it would probably be foolish handing out 6 scholarships to freshman and then only having one scholarship available the next year. Sign three freshmen and hope for two transfers one of which will be a graduate transfer like Carlino.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

At fault, too? It's ALL on the university. They alone decide who can and who cannot be admitted. If they had a "rule" then they broke it. Basketball coaches scour the country looking for talent. A lot of that talent is borderline (or worse) academically. If the guy is good enough (Wade or Crowder, eg.,) coaches ask the powers that be to make an exception and grant them admission. If TC or Buzz altered transcripts to try to get their guys in they broke a rule. Otherwise what you said is 100% wrong. The admission of Dwyane and Jae was totally up to the school. I have no doubt that there came a time when MU told Buzz no more Crowders (Wades were eliminated by rule when we entered the BigEast) just as they told him no more Humphrey for freshmen and sophomores and higher than NCAA requirements for incoming freshmen) and I have no doubt that Buzz wasn't happy about it. No coach would be.

Lenny,

I'm not sure what you think I am accusing Buzz of. He recruited a player knowing full well that he wasn't going to be able to graduate before his eligibility ran out. He asked the university for an exception, they granted it. The university later decided that granting that exception was squirmy and told Buzz they weren't going to grant that kind of exception in the future. Buzz was pissed. In my opinion getting told that should not pis someone off, at least not to the extent that it did. That's it. That is all that is being said.

And again, other than having struggling academics there is zero connection between Dwyane and Jae. Two completely different situations. Unless you are seeing a connection I am not, which I'd be open to hearing about

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny,

I'm not sure what you think I am accusing Buzz of. He recruited a player knowing full well that he wasn't going to be able to graduate before his eligibility ran out. He asked the university for an exception, they granted it. The university later decided that granting that exception was squirmy and told Buzz they weren't going to grant that kind of exception in the future. Buzz was pissed. In my opinion getting told that should not pis someone off, at least not to the extent that it did. That's it. That is all that is being said.

And again, other than having struggling academics there is zero connection between Dwyane and Jae. Two completely different situations. Unless you are seeing a connection I am not, which I'd be open to hearing about

First, you said Buzz "broke a rule by admitting Crowder". You're flat out wrong. Buzz didn't admit Crowder. He couldn't admit Crowder. It's not his responsibility to admit or deny basketball players. Buzz broke no rules. I don't know how much of an "exception" to normal policy Jae was, but I know he wasn't the first JUCO to be admitted under similar circumstances. So Buzz asked for and received an exception for Jae, like basketball and football coaches do regularly at D1 programs. Regarding Wade, it was also Marquette policy (what you wrongly call "rules") to not admit Prop 48s. We had broken with policy once before (Alton Mason, I believe) and it ended quickly and badly. It was a big enough exception to policy that TC had to appeal to the president to get Wade past admissions. God knows what would have become of Marquette basketball if Bob Wild had not given Tom Crean his permission to "break Marquette's rules" (not my characterization, but yours if there's any consistency to your argument).

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

First, you said Buzz "broke a rule by admitting Crowder". You're flat out wrong. Buzz didn't admit Crowder. He couldn't admit Crowder. It's not his responsibility to admit or deny basketball players. Buzz broke no rules. I don't know how much of an "exception" to normal policy Jae was, but I know he wasn't the first JUCO to be admitted under similar circumstances. So Buzz asked for and received an exception for Jae, like basketball and football coaches do regularly at D1 programs. Regarding Wade, it was also Marquette policy (what you wrongly call "rules") to not admit Prop 48s. We had broken with policy once before (Alton Mason, I believe) and it ended quickly and badly. It was a big enough exception to policy that TC had to appeal to the president to get Wade past admissions. God knows what would have become of Marquette basketball if Bob Wild had not given Tom Crean his permission to "break Marquette's rules" (not my characterization, but yours if there's any consistency to your argument).

Lenny, I'm not calling it a rule because of some Marquette policy. If you recruit and admit students that you know won't graduate, it hurts your APR score. Get too low of an APR score and you get penalized. That is why I called it a rule. Whether the proper term is policy, rule, or guideline it doesn't matter. Admitting students who have almost no chance of graduating is something a university shouldn't do.

I'm sorry I used the phrase "Buzz admitted" that was incorrect. I should have said Buzz recruited and the university admitted. I honestly didn't think anything of or mean anything by it.

Lenny, I feel like I have offended you somehow and I apologize if I have. All I'm really trying to get here is that though I am proud to have Jae as a fellow alum (nod to CBB), I understand and respect the university's reasons behind deciding to not allow a similar situation to happen in the future.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Bottom line in my mind: we made exceptions to admit the two best players to wear a Marquette uniform in the past two decades. I hope we continue to make exceptions when players of that caliber come to our doorstep.

[Nukem2]

Lenny, I'm not calling it a rule because of some Marquette policy. If you recruit and admit students that you know won't graduate, it hurts your APR score. Get too low of an APR score and you get penalized. That is why I called it a rule. Whether the proper term is policy, rule, or guideline it doesn't matter. Admitting students who have almost no chance of graduating is something a university shouldn't do.

Actually, APR is "a team-based metric that accounts for the eligibility and retention of each student-athlete, each term."  Crowder was eligible for each of his 4 semesters so he did not hurt the APR measurement and his eligibility was used up.  APR does not reflect actual graduation rates.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny, I'm not calling it a rule because of some Marquette policy. If you recruit and admit students that you know won't graduate, it hurts your APR score. Get too low of an APR score and you get penalized. That is why I called it a rule. Whether the proper term is policy, rule, or guideline it doesn't matter. Admitting students who have almost no chance of graduating is something a university shouldn't do.

I'm sorry I used the phrase "Buzz admitted" that was incorrect. I should have said Buzz recruited and the university admitted. I honestly didn't think anything of or mean anything by it.

Lenny, I feel like I have offended you somehow and I apologize if I have. All I'm really trying to get here is that though I am proud to have Jae as a fellow alum (nod to CBB), I understand and respect the university's reasons behind deciding to not allow a similar situation to happen in the future.

TAMU,

Please don't worry about offending me personally - nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to me to be a good guy. I like the overall tone of your posts and appreciate the information/insight you provide.

In this case, however, you (I'm sure just carelessly) wrote some things that are just not true. First, neither Buzz nor any other coach at Marquette has ever admitted a student athlete to Marquette. Second, no Marquette rule, NCAA rule or any other kind of rule was "broken" by admitting Jae Crowder. He had his associate's degree and was eligible to be accepted by any school under the NCAA umbrella.

APR is not a "rule", it's a score or a calculation. In order to be able to participate in NCAA postseason play a school needs to attain a certain score. It doesn't have to be a perfect score. Some pretty good schools (Duke, Indiana, Michigan, etc.) will make exceptions that may hurt their APR to compete at the highest level. The trick is to make few enough exceptions to maintain an acceptable APR. if Marquette's under Buzz fell short of that we surely would know about it. Bottom line: Marquette has a new POLICY. Meeting NCAA qualifying standards is not enough. Ours are higher and there will be no exceptions. Maybe that won't hurt us competitively, maybe it will. Buzz thought it would and the history of Marquette basketball suggests he's right. Time will tell.

[jsglow]

There are numerous 'camps' in this discussion that really seem to center on the overall goals for Marquette basketball.  A very few folks want it practically disbanded and/or largely defunded (foolishly) while some want nothing less than to be national championship contenders every year.  I suppose I lean more toward the latter but do acknowledge that hoops is only part of the overall MU experience.  I would never support the building of a Kentucky style athletes-only residence or a one and done pro pipeline approach with essentially all 13 schollys.  (Had Jabari decided to join his buddy Steve I'd have been all for it.)

I will say that most in the senior university administration appreciate the importance of basketball as a 'front porch' gateway to the university.  That means that they appreciate the need for dollars and understand that Men's Basketball is the primary tool available for introducing our university to a national audience.  There was a time in the 80's when that might have been forgotten.  And our university suffered dearly for it.  I see no reason to believe that there's any thought to returning to those dark days.  Certainly Coach Wojo doesn't think that.

[GGGG]

To be honest, I find Kentucky's approach at least intellectually honest.  They aren't pretending to integrate athletes into the overall experience.  They aren't pretending to be anything other than a basketball factory.  I prefer *that* approach, simply due to its brutal honesty, than the many schools that SAY they are all about academics, etc., but in truth really aren't. 

That being said, I don't want that for MU.  I want Marquette to be competitive on a high level like they have been over the past dozen years or so.  I can see the importance of NCAA minimum admission standards, investing in academic resources for the players, residence halls that are nicer than those for the average freshman, and an *occasional* flyer on a player like Jae.  I just want those players while they are here to represent the university well both in the classroom and in the community.  And I of course want them to win.  Constant final fours?  Not likely.  Consistent competitiveness in the conference, sweet 16s, and occasional advancement beyond that?  Sure. 

[Wojo'sMojo]

I don't understand why Marquette felt the need to raise their admission standard, or the whole JUCO thing. So a guy might not graduate, big deal. At every university in the country kids enroll and don't graduate. I think the administration has a very overinflated opinion of what our school really is. In the Forbes latest university rankings we were 176th for undergraduate studies. Couple that with the extremely high tuition costs and I don't think kids are getting too much bang for their buck in choosing Marquette.

[GGGG]

Well, there is a practical reason.  APR scores are important.  But really I think Marquette should want for the majority of their athletes to have a shot at graduating by the time their eligibility runs out.  It really has nothing to do with the ranking of their "undergraduate studies" by some magazine, nor does it have anything to do with tuition costs.

[keefe]

To be honest, I find Kentucky's approach at least intellectually honest.  They aren't pretending

You mean like, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf? There was a refreshing candor to Hitler that is rarely found in a politician.

[GGGG]

You mean like, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf? There was a refreshing candor to Hitler that is rarely found in a politician.

Quickest.  Godwin.  Ever.

[jsglow]

I don't understand why Marquette felt the need to raise their admission standard, or the whole JUCO thing. So a guy might not graduate, big deal. At every university in the country kids enroll and don't graduate. I think the administration has a very overinflated opinion of what our school really is. In the Forbes latest university rankings we were 176th for undergraduate studies. Couple that with the extremely high tuition costs and I don't think kids are getting too much bang for their buck in choosing Marquette.

That may be a typo there.  MU is typically ranked in the 70s overall.  I didn't look it up just now.  Of course your tuition vs. value statement raises other issues.  Those choosing UW-whatever might agree with your assessment.  Suffice to say that MU continues to fill its Frosh class every year and entrance profiles are steady to trending slightly upward.  Still, the administration and BOT are actively working to contain costs and moderate tuition increases because they see the challenges ahead.

As to your enrollment/graduation statement, it is absolutely not true that MU would typically enroll a student that is not on an initial path to 4 year graduation.  MU tracks this very closely using the national 6 year graduation standard and has a far higher overall graduation rate than a typical university.  Sure kids leave for a variety of reasons.  But MU is justifiably proud of its graduation rate which I believe is in the mid 80% range. 

I do know that there is an effort underway to increase inbound transfers as a source of undergrad students.  I believe all must bring sufficient transfer credits to be 'on pace' to be actively considered by Admissions. 

I also know that MU is greatly expanding the Summer Program both to enhance the revenue stream (summer classses are quite profitable) and to further enhance the 4 year graduation rate.  Many kids (most?) now take a course or more over the summer at some point both on campus and online to avoid too many semesters of the 'dreaded 18'.  MU began offering both housing and mealplans in support of that initiative this year.  You should have seen summer move-in day at McCormick where I believe 4 floors are currently occupied.  Carts rolled across campus the Saturday Spring finals ended.

[Lennys Tap]

To be honest, I find Kentucky's approach at least intellectually honest.  They aren't pretending to integrate athletes into the overall experience.  They aren't pretending to be anything other than a basketball factory.  I prefer *that* approach, simply due to its brutal honesty, than the many schools that SAY they are all about academics, etc., but in truth really aren't. 

That being said, I don't want that for MU.  I want Marquette to be competitive on a high level like they have been over the past dozen years or so.  I can see the importance of NCAA minimum admission standards, investing in academic resources for the players, residence halls that are nicer than those for the average freshman, and an *occasional* flyer on a player like Jae.  I just want those players while they are here to represent the university well both in the classroom and in the community.  And I of course want them to win.  Constant final fours?  Not likely.  Consistent competitiveness in the conference, sweet 16s, and occasional advancement beyond that?  Sure. 

Agree with this 100%. There will always be a little tension between the basketball program and the administration if both are doing their jobs. The key is to keep it at "a little". The administration has sent a lot of mixed signals over the last 5 years. Hopefully, a new president soon to be followed by a new AD along with a new coach will result in a more unified front.

[jsglow]

Agree with this 100%. There will always be a little tension between the basketball program and the administration if both are doing their jobs. The key is to keep it at "a little". The administration has sent a lot of mixed signals over the last 5 years. Hopefully, a new president soon to be followed by a new AD along with a new coach will result in a more unified front.

+1

[muwar2003]

What does +1 mean?

[Spotcheck Billy]

What does +1 mean?

+1

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Lenny, you are absolutely right. I carelessly misspoke and I apologize.

WM, I don't think there's a huge issue with a kid not graduating. It happens all the time at Marquette as you pointed out. I think the issue is when you admit someone who you know won't be able to graduate. Even if an academic institution does value a student's athletic ability over their ability to graduate, they can never admit that. That thought process is so against the mission of the university that it is hypocritical. Situations like Jae's are few and far between. I think we can still field a competitive team without getting ourselves in those situations.

JSglow, agree 100%

Sultan, I agree with you completely. Kentucky does not hide themselves whatsoever. They recruit players by showing them how they will market them to the NBA. Make no attempt to disguise themselves as an academic opportunity. I do like the blunt honesty, but that won't keep me from hating them. Their system is honest but it is still unethical to me. And I feel like only a blue blood would be allowed to get away with it. And I know that last comment is "grassy knoll" type conspiracy but it still doesn't feel right.

[mujivitz06]

What does +1 mean?

+1

[Skatastrophy]

What does +1 mean?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2B1

[warriorchick]

The money to build the Jes Res is coming from donations earmarked for that expense.  The current Jes Res was built in 1916.  Maybe it's a recruiting tool to get more priests!!   

If the new Jes Res has an oversupply of housing units, maybe the basketball players can stay live there.  No doubt it will be the snazziest housing on campus.