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willie warrior

Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on May 31, 2013, 07:42:45 AM
Dude, welcome to the world of college basketball. Did it just hit you that MU isn't on the level as the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world (at least not since AL)? It is frustrating to lose in state guys, but it is what it is. I'd be much more frustrated about losing players to Becky or other schools in the Midwest than I am about losing top 20 kids to Duke or UNC.

Bottom line: you keep winning, keep picking your recruiting battles, and sooner or later you start reeling in some of the big fish.

P.S. We just landed our best recruiting class in 30 years, so cheer up.
No, it did not just hit me, but it still is disappointing that we cannot land any of those guys. And maybe it is time we start questioning why, rather than making excuses that it is Duke or Ky. That does not seem acceptable to me. Or saying "well that is the welcome to college basketball" These are shrug off excuses. When was the last time we had a big time big man? Maybe Merrit, who  thought he was a perimeter player. McIlvane developed over time when the program was not very good. The last time we had real quality bigs was in the McGuire era. I know, I know, they are few and far between, but we should not accept those type of excuses. Hell, Jabbar has been looking for a coaching job. Have we tried to throw some money at him as an assistant coach to help with recruiting? Just a thought.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind. Rick Pitino: "You can either complain or adapt."

willie warrior

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 31, 2013, 08:42:11 AM
Here's the thing...Bucky doesn't realize they are the bridesmaid. They were sent to get a bridesmaid dress and for some reason think that shade of blue is actually white. What we are is smart enough to realize this kid is going out-of-state and not wasting resources trying to get a kid that won't be sticking around.

It really irks me that people still mention Tokoto constantly as losing a big recruit. Yes, he was highly ranked at one point, but Tokoto finished at #57 in the RSCI rankings, lower than Burton and just 2 spots ahead of Duane Wilson. So when it comes to "in-state big studs" we've landed two that are just as good as Tokoto.

The simple truth is that this program is not for everyone. Boot camp turns some guys off. Buzz's unwillingness to promise minutes turns some guys off. And as good as Buzz has been, to say he's on par with title-winners like K, Williams, Self, and Cal simply isn't the case yet. There's no shame in losing out to Duke, UNC, Kansas, or Kentucky. Just about everyone loses out to them.

I think it was more people within the Wisconsin program that turned Blue off than the fans. If we lose both Looney and Stone, it won't be to Wisconsin, it will be to blue bloods that make a habit out of landing those type of recruits. And who cares if freshmen make an early impact? We have Otule, Gardner, Jamil, Mayo, Taylor, Anderson, and Derrick all coming back. Aside from Taylor, those guys all averaged over 10 mpg and they will likely average more than the 113.2 they accounted for in 2012-13. This is still an excellent roster and will be hard to break into.

And if Duane can't beat out Derrick, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Derrick is an excellent ball handler who doesn't turn it over. Even if he's just a facilitator, he doesn't really need to score with all the options we have returning.

You realize this broken record has been playing since the mid-90s, right?
Which broken record? We have not had a real stud since Mcguire era. That troubles me. And we should not just shrug it off as we just cannot get there.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind. Rick Pitino: "You can either complain or adapt."

LAMUfan

willie warrior = negative nancy  ;D

Dr. Blackheart

Marquette will have the best frontline in both the legacy and new Big East's next year, with an All American, 1st team JUCO joining Big East 6th Man of the Year and preseason AA candidate.  And the two most talented players are Jamil and Steve. MU's best frontline in ages.

On Looney, he doesn't want to play PF, he wants to be Magic/Durant.  Duke's system lends itself to the forwards dribbling the ball.  Bo places his bigs outside the three point line.  In Marquette's system, the forwards play different roles, mostly as passers and spot up shooters, who mix it up inside.  Is Buzz's system bad and needs to be changed? Well, that position has yielded three straight NBA first round picks, and should have had a fourth as Wes has proven.  

Silkk the Shaka

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 08:44:27 AM
No, it did not just hit me, but it still is disappointing that we cannot land any of those guys. And maybe it is time we start questioning why, rather than making excuses that it is Duke or Ky. That does not seem acceptable to me. Or saying "well that is the welcome to college basketball" These are shrug off excuses. When was the last time we had a big time big man? Maybe Merrit, who  thought he was a perimeter player. McIlvane developed over time when the program was not very good. The last time we had real quality bigs was in the McGuire era. I know, I know, they are few and far between, but we should not accept those type of excuses. Hell, Jabbar has been looking for a coaching job. Have we tried to throw some money at him as an assistant coach to help with recruiting? Just a thought.

1.) Looney does not want to stay home.  It's not an excuse, it's a fact.

2.) Like others have pointed out, we just got our highest rated recruit in who knows how long but at the very least since '98 (Jajuan).  We are creeping closer and closer to the "stud" territory you're looking for.  It doesn't happen overnight, it's a process.  Buzz is building his brand at MU and we're trending in the right direction.  He has spoken about the need to build compound interest on the recruiting trail, meaning prove you can win (sweet 16 and elite 8 breakthroughs) get unheralded guys to the league (Butler, Crowder, DJO), then prove you can get the more heralded guys to the league (Blue early entry fingers crossed) then the bigger fish start to notice.  That's starting to pay off.  If you can't see that, you're blind or not paying attention very closely.

3.) Gardner and Otule are the best big men we've had since Robert Jackson, and they've been on the roster together for four years.  We made a major run at Embiid this past year, but shockingly, he will probably find more immediate playing time at KANSAS than MU.  Sometimes things break that way.  It's not for lack of trying.  We will likely be able to offer Stone and/or Ellenson (your hometown/home state wet dreams) 40 minutes of PT immediately.  These are the only local PF/C studs that have come along since Buzz took the helm.  Let's see how it plays out.

4.) Regarding your brain-dead Jabbar idea, I'll just leave the quote below.  But yeah, let's throw a boatload of cash at the guy!  We need an aloof introvert to kick-start our big man recruiting! That's the ticket!


"Many basketball observers, in addition to Abdul-Jabbar, believe that Kareem's reticence, whether through disdain for the press corps or simply because of introversion, contributed to the dearth of coaching opportunities offered to Abdul-Jabbar by the NBA. In his words, he said he had a mindset he could not overcome, and proceeded through his career oblivious to the effect his reticence may have had on his coaching prospects in the future. Abdul-Jabbar said: "I didn't understand that I also had affected people that way and that's what it was all about. I always saw it like they were trying to pry. I was way too suspicious and I paid a price for it."[16] Since he began lobbying for a coaching position in 1995, he has managed to obtain only low-level assistant and scouting jobs in the NBA, and a head coaching position only in a minor professional league."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Abdul-Jabbar

GGGG

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 31, 2013, 08:42:11 AM
It really irks me that people still mention Tokoto constantly as losing a big recruit. Yes, he was highly ranked at one point, but Tokoto finished at #57 in the RSCI rankings, lower than Burton and just 2 spots ahead of Duane Wilson. So when it comes to "in-state big studs" we've landed two that are just as good as Tokoto.


Not to mention Jamil Wilson who was RSCI #40.

GGGG

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 08:44:27 AM
No, it did not just hit me, but it still is disappointing that we cannot land any of those guys. And maybe it is time we start questioning why, rather than making excuses that it is Duke or Ky. That does not seem acceptable to me. Or saying "well that is the welcome to college basketball" These are shrug off excuses.


Even if this negativism is all true, what do you want us to do about it?

4everwarriors

Quote from: Goose on May 31, 2013, 07:00:49 AM
4ever


Does Bucky have real chance?


This will get many on this board constipated, but the reality is that Bo has endeared himself to the Looney household. Bucky likens his game to Jalen Rose. My own opinion is Kevon's game potentially mimics Durant's game. Georgetown, Tennessee, Michigan, MSU, Florida, Stanford, MU among others were all in on him early. Coach, style of play, teammates, and preparing for the next level were important criteria from the get go.
That said, I stand by my comments of a couple of years ago, though he hasn't taken any visits yet.  But, once Duke offered, it was game, set, match.

"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

GGGG

Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 31, 2013, 09:17:29 AM
This will get many on this board constipated, but the reality is that Bo has endeared himself to the Looney household.


If Looney ends up in Madison, people are just going to have to deal with it.  Stop being obsessed about what is going on over there and just continue to beat them on the court.

BCHoopster

Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 31, 2013, 09:17:29 AM

This will get many on this board constipated, but the reality is that Bo has endeared himself to the Looney household. Bucky likens his game to Jalen Rose. My own opinion is Kevon's game potentially mimics Durant's game. Georgetown, Tennessee, Michigan, MSU, Florida, Stanford, MU among others were all in on him early. Coach, style of play, teammates, and preparing for the next level were important criteria from the get go.
That said, I stand by my comments of a couple of years ago, though he hasn't taken any visits yet.  But, once Duke offered, it was game, set, match.



the longer Duke does not offer him a scooly, the better chance the other schools have.  How long should Looney wait, is he second fiddle.  Wisky has a good chance here, hope they
get him over the other schools.  Like to see what Bo could do with Koenig, Looney and Decker in the fold.

GGGG


dgies9156

Quote from: Jajuannaman on May 31, 2013, 07:39:37 AM
Seriously, I never got why it's considered such a tragedy or recruiting failure to lose a home town or home state kid. I know at that age I wanted nothing more than to go somewhere else for college. That brought me several states and a time zone away to MU and I'm glad I did it. For others, staying home is the right thing for them. I'm hoping beyond hope that Stone falls into the latter camp, but it seems like Looney wanted to go away from the get-go. C'est la vie. We're in on a fast rising 2014 wing in Malek Harris, we'll be fine without Looney. We'd obviously be better with him, but  that was never really in the cards. Good luck to him at Duke.

+1000000000000000000000000

I grew up in Nashville, TN, son of two transplanted cheeseheads. By 1974, I was so tired of the Bubba Belt that Milwaukee looked like Nirvana. Marquette was a grungy "cool" in those days and with Al running around, the world looked to us. It was a great place then as it is now.

About half my high school went to college in Tennessee and relatively few left the south. It's their choice and God love 'em, they're gereat people even if they didn't get the advantage of a Marquette education.

Ultimately, the question is, "where dop you want to live after college," since your selection of a college becomes a key factor in what place you end up living. If these guys want to go out of state, well, they just won't know what they're missing.

warriorchick

Quote from: dgies9156 on May 31, 2013, 09:27:55 AM
+1000000000000000000000000

I grew up in Nashville, TN, son of two transplanted cheeseheads. By 1974, I was so tired of the Bubba Belt that Milwaukee looked like Nirvana. Marquette was a grungy "cool" in those days and with Al running around, the world looked to us. It was a great place then as it is now.

About half my high school went to college in Tennessee and relatively few left the south. It's their choice and God love 'em, they're gereat people even if they didn't get the advantage of a Marquette education.


But you missed out on meeting and marrying one of those high-maintenance, big-haired Southern sorority girls who only go to college to get their MRS degree.
Have some patience, FFS.

brewcity77

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 08:46:59 AM
Which broken record? We have not had a real stud since Mcguire era. That troubles me. And we should not just shrug it off as we just cannot get there.

The marquee big man record. There just aren't that many of them out there. If we get one, great, but I have faith in Buzz. Of course there are idiots who will say Otule isn't that good despite the huge strides in his offensive game, his excellent boxing out and ability to get the team rebounds, and solid defense without fouling. And there are people who will probably complain that Gardner isn't effective enough on the defensive end (despite being much better this past year).

We are better off at the 5 than we have been since MacIlvaine and McCaskill and I have faith Buzz will continue to recruit guys that fit the system and can contribute at this level. If we get Stone or Ellenson, great. If not, something tells me we'll get guys that can do the job, even if they are criticized constantly for what they are not rather than praised for what they are.

willie warrior

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 31, 2013, 11:04:42 AM
The marquee big man record. There just aren't that many of them out there. If we get one, great, but I have faith in Buzz. Of course there are idiots who will say Otule isn't that good despite the huge strides in his offensive game, his excellent boxing out and ability to get the team rebounds, and solid defense without fouling. And there are people who will probably complain that Gardner isn't effective enough on the defensive end (despite being much better this past year).

We are better off at the 5 than we have been since MacIlvaine and McCaskill and I have faith Buzz will continue to recruit guys that fit the system and can contribute at this level. If we get Stone or Ellenson, great. If not, something tells me we'll get guys that can do the job, even if they are criticized constantly for what they are not rather than praised for what they are.
OK, I accept your theory that Buzz will get the job done. Nothing wrong with that--as long as that happens. If Buzz can get us to the final 4 without a stud big, then Buzz is the stud. But as of yet, we have not been there, nor have we secured a dominant big. At least get one out of your home state, please! I agree that Gardner has improved defensively, and I agree that Otule has improved offensively. I would hope that Otule would make strides, he has been in the program going on his 6th year.
But what I sense here is that it is all right to constantly miss out on quality bigs, for whatever excuse one wants to offer: They all go to UNC, Duke or Ky.; or we were close on that one; or there just are not that many out there; or the weather is bad in Milwaukee; or that it is a city campus; or that there is not enough poontang at MU; or that we cannot compete with the elites; or that we will be fine with switchables; yadda yadda.
I hope that we can get there with the guys Buzz is bringing in, and the future looks bright, land Stone and we all can be happy.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind. Rick Pitino: "You can either complain or adapt."

Ellenson Guerrero

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
OK, I accept your theory that Buzz will get the job done. Nothing wrong with that--as long as that happens. If Buzz can get us to the final 4 without a stud big, then Buzz is the stud. But as of yet, we have not been there, nor have we secured a dominant big. At least get one out of your home state, please! I agree that Gardner has improved defensively, and I agree that Otule has improved offensively. I would hope that Otule would make strides, he has been in the program going on his 6th year.
But what I sense here is that it is all right to constantly miss out on quality bigs, for whatever excuse one wants to offer: They all go to UNC, Duke or Ky.; or we were close on that one; or there just are not that many out there; or the weather is bad in Milwaukee; or that it is a city campus; or that there is not enough poontang at MU; or that we cannot compete with the elites; or that we will be fine with switchables; yadda yadda.
I hope that we can get there with the guys Buzz is bringing in, and the future looks bright, land Stone and we all can be happy.

Everyone wants Stone, and everyone should want Ellenson. Some of us are just trying to be realistic about how MU should spend its recruiting capital and how MU can get to where we all want it to be.
"What we take for-granted, others pray for..." - Brent Williams 3/30/14

Groin_pull

Quote from: warriorchick on May 31, 2013, 11:04:18 AM
But you missed out on meeting and marrying one of those high-maintenance, big-haired Southern sorority girls who only go to college to get their MRS degree.


Yeah. Who wants that when you can have a sloppy, no make-up wearing, bad haircut, big butted midwestern girl.

GGGG

Quote from: Groin_pull on May 31, 2013, 11:59:39 AM
Yeah. Who wants that when you can have a sloppy, no make-up wearing, bad haircut, big butted midwestern girl.


My wife isn't sloppy, doesn't need make-up, has fine hair (I guess...don't really pay all that much attention), and a real nice ass.

Groin_pull

Quote from: Terror Skink on May 31, 2013, 12:03:18 PM

My wife isn't sloppy, doesn't need make-up, has fine hair (I guess...don't really pay all that much attention), and a real nice ass.

congratulations

brewcity77

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
OK, I accept your theory that Buzz will get the job done. Nothing wrong with that--as long as that happens. If Buzz can get us to the final 4 without a stud big, then Buzz is the stud. But as of yet, we have not been there, nor have we secured a dominant big. At least get one out of your home state, please! I agree that Gardner has improved defensively, and I agree that Otule has improved offensively. I would hope that Otule would make strides, he has been in the program going on his 6th year.
But what I sense here is that it is all right to constantly miss out on quality bigs, for whatever excuse one wants to offer: They all go to UNC, Duke or Ky.; or we were close on that one; or there just are not that many out there; or the weather is bad in Milwaukee; or that it is a city campus; or that there is not enough poontang at MU; or that we cannot compete with the elites; or that we will be fine with switchables; yadda yadda.
I hope that we can get there with the guys Buzz is bringing in, and the future looks bright, land Stone and we all can be happy.

We got to the Elite 8 and unfortunately played one of our worst games of the season at that point. It wasn't because of bigs that we lost to Syracuse, it was because we were awful in virtually every aspect of the game.

As far as marquee bigs, I'm not sure what qualifies a marquee big. Is it a McDonald's All-American center or power forward? Are we only talking about centers? Does top-50 count? Top-100?

I went through the RSCI for the past 5 years (since Buzz got here) and in that time there have been 183 players in the top-100 at the C and PF positions that went to 76 different schools. Of those, 92 went to 17 schools. Here are the 17 schools with 4+ top-100 RSCI centers and power forwards the past 5 years:

Kentucky: 12
North Carolina: 8
Arizona: 7
Pittsburgh, Baylor: 6
Villanova, Duke, Louisville, NC State, Syracuse: 5
Georgia Tech, UCLA, Michigan State, Texas, Georgetown, Memphis, Indiana: 4

Marquette landed 2 such players, Maymon and Taylor. That's pretty close to blue-bloods like Ohio State, Kansas, Florida, and Connecticut (3 each) and more than Purdue, Missouri, Maryland, and Wisconsin (1 each). Quite simply, we don't have a big man reputation and my guess is until Buzz puts a 3-star big in the league we probably won't start to develop one. But we're keeping up pretty well considering more than half of these guys go to 17 schools.

Silkk the Shaka

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 31, 2013, 01:00:33 PM
We got to the Elite 8 and unfortunately played one of our worst games of the season at that point. It wasn't because of bigs that we lost to Syracuse, it was because we were awful in virtually every aspect of the game.

As far as marquee bigs, I'm not sure what qualifies a marquee big. Is it a McDonald's All-American center or power forward? Are we only talking about centers? Does top-50 count? Top-100?

I went through the RSCI for the past 5 years (since Buzz got here) and in that time there have been 183 players in the top-100 at the C and PF positions that went to 76 different schools. Of those, 92 went to 17 schools. Here are the 17 schools with 4+ top-100 RSCI centers and power forwards the past 5 years:

Kentucky: 12
North Carolina: 8
Arizona: 7
Pittsburgh, Baylor: 6
Villanova, Duke, Louisville, NC State, Syracuse: 5
Georgia Tech, UCLA, Michigan State, Texas, Georgetown, Memphis, Indiana: 4

Marquette landed 2 such players, Maymon and Taylor. That's pretty close to blue-bloods like Ohio State, Kansas, Florida, and Connecticut (3 each) and more than Purdue, Missouri, Maryland, and Wisconsin (1 each). Quite simply, we don't have a big man reputation and my guess is until Buzz puts a 3-star big in the league we probably won't start to develop one. But we're keeping up pretty well considering more than half of these guys go to 17 schools.

Sorry, willie


Silkk the Shaka

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
OK, I accept your theory that Buzz will get the job done. Nothing wrong with that--as long as that happens. If Buzz can get us to the final 4 without a stud big, then Buzz is the stud. But as of yet, we have not been there, nor have we secured a dominant big. At least get one out of your home state, please! I agree that Gardner has improved defensively, and I agree that Otule has improved offensively. I would hope that Otule would make strides, he has been in the program going on his 6th year.
But what I sense here is that it is all right to constantly miss out on quality bigs, for whatever excuse one wants to offer: They all go to UNC, Duke or Ky.; or we were close on that one; or there just are not that many out there; or the weather is bad in Milwaukee; or that it is a city campus; or that there is not enough poontang at MU; or that we cannot compete with the elites; or that we will be fine with switchables; yadda yadda.
I hope that we can get there with the guys Buzz is bringing in, and the future looks bright, land Stone and we all can be happy.

Name one that has come out of Wisconsin since Buzz has been at the helm.  Hint: there hasn't been one.  He's 0 for 0.  You're gonna hafta wait til 2015 my man.  Then you can complain if Stone or Ellenson go elsewhere.  And if they do, we'll have someone else to get the job done.  If we (GASP!) have to go the route of a 3-star (Gardner) or 2-star (Otule), I think we'll be okay.  Buzz has said he wants two true centers and two true PGs on the roster at all times.  I'm guessing that will almost never NOT be the case.  Until it is, why are you complaining?  And on a thread about Looney, a wiry small forward, of all places?

dgies9156

Quote from: warriorchick on May 31, 2013, 11:04:18 AM
But you missed out on meeting and marrying one of those high-maintenance, big-haired Southern sorority girls who only go to college to get their MRS degree.

My lack of either a trust fund or membership in the Episcopal Church probably excluded me from that crowd anyway.

Instead, I married an absoluetly lovely Midwestern woman who had the good sense to obtain a Marquette education, sit net to me in Spanish class and nurse her beer while all around her consumed mightily. She has a brilliant mind and great common sense, which she is not afraid to use liberally. That definitely sets her apart from any of the southern MRS babes and is a big reason we have been married 33 years!

willie warrior

Quote from: Jajuannaman on May 31, 2013, 01:13:51 PM
Name one that has come out of Wisconsin since Buzz has been at the helm.  Hint: there hasn't been one.  He's 0 for 0.  You're gonna hafta wait til 2015 my man.  Then you can complain if Stone or Ellenson go elsewhere.  And if they do, we'll have someone else to get the job done.  If we (GASP!) have to go the route of a 3-star (Gardner) or 2-star (Otule), I think we'll be okay.  Buzz has said he wants two true centers and two true PGs on the roster at all times.  I'm guessing that will almost never NOT be the case.  Until it is, why are you complaining?  And on a thread about Looney, a wiry small forward, of all places?
OK, he is 0 for 0 in Wisconsin. But  unless you are confident he will land Looney, he will be 0 for 1 instate when that does not happen, which certainly appears it will not happen. And by the way, he has not landed any stud big from out of state since he has been at the helm. Unless you want to count Otule. My only point is that MU has not landed a quality big for almost decades, and that tradtion continues. And we keep making excuses for it as mentioned above.
By the way, how much of a stud is Ellenson? Is he ranked in the top 50 anywhere? I have not heard that.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind. Rick Pitino: "You can either complain or adapt."

Silkk the Shaka

Quote from: willie warrior on May 31, 2013, 01:28:44 PM
OK, he is 0 for 0 in Wisconsin. But  unless you are confident he will land Looney, he will be 0 for 1 instate when that does not happen, which certainly appears it will not happen. And by the way, he has not landed any stud big from out of state since he has been at the helm. Unless you want to count Otule. My only point is that MU has not landed a quality big for almost decades, and that tradtion continues. And we keep making excuses for it as mentioned above.
By the way, how much of a stud is Ellenson? Is he ranked in the top 50 anywhere? I have not heard that.

Looney is a wiry small forward/wing.  He is not a big man or post player, despite his height.  I would think the comparisons to Jalen Rose and Kevin Durant referenced above should help illustrate that for you.

Gardner is one of the most offensively efficient big men in the country.  How does he not count as a "quality big?"  We're going to have the best front line in our brand new conference and one of the best in the nation this coming year. 

Are these concepts lost on you?

Ellenson is ranked #22 overall by ESPN, #6 at his position.  I think that counts.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/143158/henry-ellenson

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