Futbol Talk

[brewcity77]

My question about Howard is if he's the future, even the immediate future. He'll be 39 in 2018. Not too old to play the position necessarily, but certainly not likely to be at his athletic best. And if we go to Howard over Guzan, it likely will mean passing on Guzan ever taking the first choice job. Not necessarily a bad thing with Yarbrough, Cropper, and Hamid coming up behind him, but it will certainly impact the position for a good decade or so if Howard goes back to first choice.

[JWags85]

I feel like Hamid needs to make the move to Europe like Howard did to jump start his career.  Otherwise he feels like Nick Rimando 2.0 to me.

[brewcity77]

Anyone watch yesterday's debacle? Panama really dominated us start to finish. If not for some great saves by Guzan and two balls being cleared off the line it could have easily been 4 or 5 to 1. Brooks was horrible on the goal, not just missing his mark but running Ream out of the play as well. Panama had numerous near misses go just wide as well. This is probably the worst the US has performed in a tournament since 1998. Ugh.

[injuryBug]

Back line has been bad but this is the worst I have seen it in years.  If Panama had more skilled forwards this would have been real ugly. 
Is it the players on defense or the keeper not working well with them?  or even how they are being coached? Having played defense it is not the easiest thing but these guys make it look like the most difficult job in the world.
Mark your man and communicate.

Interesting how a few months ago we played so well in Europe and now this.  Makes you wonder just how serious the Dutch and Germans took those friendlies

[brewcity77]

Back line has been bad but this is the worst I have seen it in years.  If Panama had more skilled forwards this would have been real ugly. 
Is it the players on defense or the keeper not working well with them?  or even how they are being coached? Having played defense it is not the easiest thing but these guys make it look like the most difficult job in the world.
Mark your man and communicate.

Interesting how a few months ago we played so well in Europe and now this.  Makes you wonder just how serious the Dutch and Germans took those friendlies

We have had no defensive consistency. Look at the game-by-game lineups this competition:

Honduras: Johnson, Brooks, Alvarado, Chandler
Haiti: Garza, Ream, Gonzalez, Evans
Panama: Johnson, Brooks, Alvarado, Chandler
Cuba: Johnson, Alvarado, Gonzalez, Evans
Jamaica: Johnson, Brooks, Alvarado, Evans
Panama: Ream, Brooks, Gonzalez, Chandler

So in 6 games, we had 5 different back lines. How is a defense supposed to come together as a unit when they never know who will be playing on a game-to-game basis? I think that's why the communication suffers, because they don't play together consistently. And the guy who is tabbed with leading the defense seems to be Brooks, who at 22 years of age simply doesn't have the experience to be a backline general. I mean, let's be honest, when you think about the guys we've had over the years in that role, from Besler to Onyewu to Bocanegra all the way back to Lalas, those were vocal guys who demonstrated leadership. Brooks might get there in a few years, but he isn't there yet.

Agreed on those friendlies. They are fun results to watch, but ultimately, these games are the ones on which our manager needs to be judged. No one will care if we beat or lost to Germany in a friendly, but when you have arguably the worst tournament performance in the modern era (and certainly the worst since at least the 1998 World Cup) there is a problem.

[jesmu84]

Some good reads:

http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/7/23/9020133/jurgen-klinsmann-usa-jamaica-the-usmnt-beat-germany-just-a-month-ago

http://www.mlssoccer.com/goldcup/2015/news/article/2015/07/25/armchair-analyst-gold-cup-epitaph-usmnt-and-reason-worry-going-forward

[brewcity77]

Thanks for sharing, Jesu. The first one, the pro-JK article, for me actually underscores why he needs to go. You can't ignore the importance of CONCACAF games, and while he may be helping build the US for the future, the odds seem very slim that he will be a part of that future. No way he lasts long after 2018, almost no matter what the results (just too long for a NT coach to keep tenure).

I do believe that no matter what, he'll keep the job and have a chance to prove himself in qualifying. With our weak group, he will certainly make the Hexagonal. Most likely it will be a year or more before there's even consideration of him being ousted.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Some good reads:

http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/7/23/9020133/jurgen-klinsmann-usa-jamaica-the-usmnt-beat-germany-just-a-month-ago

http://www.mlssoccer.com/goldcup/2015/news/article/2015/07/25/armchair-analyst-gold-cup-epitaph-usmnt-and-reason-worry-going-forward

I said it last month, but beating the Dutch and Germans in friendliest just doesn't mean much in my opinion.  People got way too excited.  It's like when a power team in NCAA hoops loses an exhibition game and folks freak out....doesn't mean squat.

[brewcity77]

I said it last month, but beating the Dutch and Germans in friendliest just doesn't mean much in my opinion.  People got way too excited.  It's like when a power team in NCAA hoops loses an exhibition game and folks freak out....doesn't mean squat.

They were fun results to watch, made for some good entertainment, but ultimately just not that important. On another site, someone wrote that the wins over the Netherlands and Germany were the two biggest results in US Soccer history. All I could think was that this person must have been new to the sport since 2010, since I'd say just off the top of my head beating Colombia (1994), Mexico (2002), and Spain (2009) were all far more significant results in the modern era. And that's without going back to 1950.

[JWags85]

I said it last month, but beating the Dutch and Germans in friendliest just doesn't mean much in my opinion.  People got way too excited.  It's like when a power team in NCAA hoops loses an exhibition game and folks freak out....doesn't mean squat.

Well interestingly enough, those games featured timely and effective scoring attacks from guys like Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris, and good minutes from Danny Williams.  I think people were justifiably excited cause they were good results against top tier teams featuring MAJOR contributions from younger US players, who then didnt play in the Gold Cup for a variety of reasons related to club and health.  I think some people are overplaying it and you're definitely underplaying it.  As it relates to the future of the USMNT, I think they were huge wins.  Not biggest in history, cause that's just silly, but big.

I agree the defensive backline is a huge concern.  I really wonder how a healthy Geoff Cameron would factor in.  I personally don't care about yesterdays result in the slightest.  A third place game in the Gold Cup is meaningless and completely unsurprising that the team didn't seem inspired.  Focus your efforts and energy on the playoff.  If there is another head scratcher of a lineup and uninspired result, then the questions can be brought up.  If they beat Jamaica or Mexico in October, its a moot point and a disappointing stretch following a promising stretch.  The Gold Cup is a joke anyways as evidenced by most of Mexico's matches thus far.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well interestingly enough, those games featured timely and effective scoring attacks from guys like Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris, and good minutes from Danny Williams.  I think people were justifiably excited cause they were good results against top tier teams featuring MAJOR contributions from younger US players, who then didnt play in the Gold Cup for a variety of reasons related to club and health.  I think some people are overplaying it and you're definitely underplaying it.  As it relates to the future of the USMNT, I think they were huge wins.  Not biggest in history, cause that's just silly, but big.

I agree the defensive backline is a huge concern.  I really wonder how a healthy Geoff Cameron would factor in.  I personally don't care about yesterdays result in the slightest.  A third place game in the Gold Cup is meaningless and completely unsurprising that the team didn't seem inspired.  Focus your efforts and energy on the playoff.  If there is another head scratcher of a lineup and uninspired result, then the questions can be brought up.  If they beat Jamaica or Mexico in October, its a moot point and a disappointing stretch following a promising stretch.  The Gold Cup is a joke anyways as evidenced by most of Mexico's matches thus far.

My point is that those opponents aren't giving it their all, they aren't even fielding all of their best players.  It is an exhibition game, they're playing like it while our guys are playing like it's a World Cup game.

[jesmu84]

My point is that those opponents aren't giving it their all, they aren't even fielding all of their best players.  It is an exhibition game, they're playing like it while our guys are playing like it's a World Cup game.

To be fair, since we did play men like Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris, neither was the US fielding all of their best players.

[brewcity77]

To be fair, since we did play men like Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris, neither was the US fielding all of their best players.

If not for injury, I wonder if Jordan would have been on this Gold Cup team.

[ChicosBailBonds]

To be fair, since we did play men like Bobby Wood and Jordan Morris, neither was the US fielding all of their best players.

Yes, but their best are better than our best....by a decent margin in my opinion.

[Golden Avalanche]

Yes, but their best are better than our best....by a decent margin in my opinion.

Taking that notion and running, if our second best was better then the second best from the World Champions I'd say Klinnsi has had a measurable impact on US Soccer.

[brewcity77]

Taking that notion and running, if our second best was better then the second best from the World Champions I'd say Klinnsi has had a measurable impact on US Soccer.

Taking that notion and running, if our first best was worse than the first best from Jamaica and Panama, I'd say Klinnsi has had a measurable impact on US Soccer as well, however not in a good way.

[GGGG]

Pre-Klinny:  Win about 40% of Gold Cups.  Qualify for the World Cup with relative ease.  Possibly get out of the group stage but rarely go further.

Under Klinny:  1 for 2 in Gold Cups.  Qualified for the WC with relative ease.  Got out of the group state and lost in the round of 16.  (My guess is that we will also qualify for the WC with relative ease and finished second or third in the group.)

So I really don't see that much measurable impact either way.  Perhaps down the line with some of the players he has recruited. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Taking that notion and running, if our second best was better then the second best from the World Champions I'd say Klinnsi has had a measurable impact on US Soccer.

In my opinion, he has had a mostly positive impact on US soccer.  Not sure I agree with your analogy, however.  It was as much about who was not playing as it is about the effort and willingness to care about playing.  They were exhibition games against a team ranked in the middle 30's in the world.  We were far more up for those games then they are to play the US. 

Do you think the Dutch get really fired up to play Tunisia in a friendly?  Yet Tunisia is ranked higher than the US is in the FIFA world rankings.

[JWags85]

My point is that those opponents aren't giving it their all, they aren't even fielding all of their best players.  It is an exhibition game, they're playing like it while our guys are playing like it's a World Cup game.

Thats not true at all.  Maybe in some friendlies, but that was 85%+ of German roster only missing Neuer, Muller, and Kroos from their regulars.  Ozil, Schweinsteger, Gotze, Khedira, Schurrle, etc... all played.  It wasn't the C squad the US beat a few years ago.  And that Dutch team was full strength and playing hard.  You're playing a common friendlies storyline that just wasn't true with those two games.  Sure they weren't results in the World Cup, but that shouldn't cheapen them at all.  Those are two squads prepping for final Euor 2016 qualifying, they aren't lollygagging around.

[jesmu84]

Taking that notion and running, if our first best was worse than the first best from Jamaica and Panama, I'd say Klinnsi has had a measurable impact on US Soccer as well, however not in a good way.

Ah, see but that's the thing. In my opinion, we didn't play our first best at the gold cup. And it would appear, as mentioned in the articles, that klins doesn't care much about concacaf outside of WC qualifying, so he is still experimenting.

I'm not saying I agree with his approach, but that appears to be his mindset.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pre-Klinny:  Win about 40% of Gold Cups.  Qualify for the World Cup with relative ease.  Possibly get out of the group stage but rarely go further.

Under Klinny:  1 for 2 in Gold Cups.  Qualified for the WC with relative ease.  Got out of the group state and lost in the round of 16.  (My guess is that we will also qualify for the WC with relative ease and finished second or third in the group.)

So I really don't see that much measurable impact either way.  Perhaps down the line with some of the players he has recruited.

I think you need to judge him besides just the onfield results, but the development program which will start to come into play over the next 10 years. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thats not true at all.  Maybe in some friendlies, but that was 85%+ of German roster only missing Neuer, Muller, and Kroos from their regulars.  Ozil, Schweinsteger, Gotze, Khedira, Schurrle, etc... all played.  It wasn't the C squad the US beat a few years ago.  And that Dutch team was full strength and playing hard.  You're playing a common friendlies storyline that just wasn't true with those two games.  Sure they weren't results in the World Cup, but that shouldn't cheapen them at all.  Those are two squads prepping for final Euor 2016 qualifying, they aren't lollygagging around.

How do you measure will, intensity, caring about playing?  Because the bodies are out there doesn't mean they are putting in the same effort, care about the result, etc.  It's the US on the other side of the field, and as much as many here don't want to admit, in the game of soccer that doesn't mean a whole lot. 

Put another way, it means a lot more for the US to play Germany than it does the Germans to play the US.  There are 20+ teams that the Germans are going to be more fired up for.

[GGGG]

How do you measure will, intensity, caring about playing?  Because the bodies are out there doesn't mean they are putting in the same effort, care about the result, etc.  It's the US on the other side of the field, and as much as many here don't want to admit, in the game of soccer that doesn't mean a whole lot. 

Put another way, it means a lot more for the US to play Germany than it does the Germans to play the US.  There are 20+ teams that the Germans are going to be more fired up for.

Well so how do you know?  How do you know that the Germans and Dutch weren't all that fired up?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well so how do you know?  How do you know that the Germans and Dutch weren't all that fired up?

Human nature. 

1)  Exhibition game
2)  We are ranked 34th in the world...34th
3)  Some of their top players didn't play...their top players way better than our top players
4)  There aren't 3 guys on the US that could start for either of those teams

So on and so forth.  Or just reading the soccer journalists takes before the games were even played.  The intensity wasn't there, just a friendly, more important for them (US) than us, so on and so forth.


I'll give you an example, about 2 weeks ago we had Barcelona in town to play the LA Galaxy in a friendly.  93,000 people showed up for the game.  Barcelona won 2-1.  Neymar and Messi didn't play, and quite frankly the "stars" who did were going through the motions.  The score looked ok, though the Galaxy scored in the 90th minute.  Barcelona brought their C game.  Some soccer goofs out in this part of the world started talking about how good the Galaxy are....yesterday the Galaxy got destroyed by Houston in the MLS. 

Can I prove what is in a man's heart and how hard they tried?  Nope.  The reverse is true as well.  I'm just going by human nature, starting with the obvious...it was an exhibition game vs a team that is ranked 34th in the world.

[GGGG]

So you really don't know.  You are simply making assumptions.