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Author Topic: Futbol Talk  (Read 479534 times)

Pakuni

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3025 on: October 17, 2020, 11:41:22 AM »
Except they are all in the same league system. It wasn't long ago that Leicester & Man City were outside the PL. They are going to exclude teams just removed from that league. The EFL are divisions of the same league the PL members are in.

What does that mean? Those EFL teams HAVE earned it. There are 30 teams outside the PL currently that have played PL games, contributed to the development of the PL as a league, and continue to enhance its competition and development. The PL would not be what it is without the teams that have been members before and could be again. It's a misunderstanding of the appeal of the league system.

If I'm investing hundreds of millions, it not a billion plus, into a PL club, you're going to have to make more compelling arguments for me giving some of that money away than "these teams used to be good." Asking me to prop up a failing enterprise merely for tradition's sake isn't going to win me over. I mean, how have the big clubs been hurt by the folding of Bury FC or Macclesfield Town?

Show me how Liverpool or Man U tangibly benefit from the existence of Southend United or Yoevil Town and I'm listening. Otherwise, you want me to throw good money after bad.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3026 on: October 18, 2020, 08:16:45 AM »
FC Toronto is posting their home games in Hartford this season.  They are actually letting 5,000 people in the building on Nov. 1 game to watch.  They considered the Oct 28 game but they are playing FCNYC and they didn't want their fans in the building and name it more of a road game.

brewcity77

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3027 on: October 18, 2020, 10:45:25 AM »
If I'm investing hundreds of millions, it not a billion plus, into a PL club, you're going to have to make more compelling arguments for me giving some of that money away than "these teams used to be good." Asking me to prop up a failing enterprise merely for tradition's sake isn't going to win me over. I mean, how have the big clubs been hurt by the folding of Bury FC or Macclesfield Town?

Show me how Liverpool or Man U tangibly benefit from the existence of Southend United or Yoevil Town and I'm listening. Otherwise, you want me to throw good money after bad.

If they don't want to invest in a business that is tied to nearly 100 other businesses, maybe they should've put their money elsewhere. They decided to put money into this venture, that means taking the connections and liabilities that come with it. If it's so terrible that they are in the same league structure as EFL teams, it was their mistake not to do their due diligence to understand the responsibilities that came with buying into the PL.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3028 on: October 18, 2020, 02:10:57 PM »
If they don't want to invest in a business that is tied to nearly 100 other businesses, maybe they should've put their money elsewhere. They decided to put money into this venture, that means taking the connections and liabilities that come with it. If it's so terrible that they are in the same league structure as EFL teams, it was their mistake not to do their due diligence to understand the responsibilities that came with buying into the PL.


They don't have "responsibilities" to share their $$ with the other league teams when they face financial hardship.  There are no rules that state they have to do so at all, much less provide MORE with no strings attached like you believe.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

brewcity77

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3029 on: October 18, 2020, 03:45:30 PM »

They don't have "responsibilities" to share their $$ with the other league teams when they face financial hardship.  There are no rules that state they have to do so at all, much less provide MORE with no strings attached like you believe.

They are part of the league system and all clubs in the system have responsibilities to it. Again, if the investors don't want to be in a business that is connected to dozens of other similar businesses, invest elsewhere.

This virus has exposed many issues in our societies that have fattened the coffers of bigger businesses while bankrupting smaller ones. Sorry, but it's not in my nature to side with the Glazers and Man United any more than with Amazon and Bezos. The Football League predates the foreign investors. They chose to buy into symbiotic relationships. Just because they brought wealth to their seats doesn't guarantee some right to suck up even more wealth and control. If they want their developmental league to be free and the right to monopolize the market, go back to the NFL where we've codified monopolies. Otherwise, GTFO.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3030 on: October 18, 2020, 04:30:19 PM »
They are part of the league system and all clubs in the system have responsibilities to it. Again, if the investors don't want to be in a business that is connected to dozens of other similar businesses, invest elsewhere.

This virus has exposed many issues in our societies that have fattened the coffers of bigger businesses while bankrupting smaller ones. Sorry, but it's not in my nature to side with the Glazers and Man United any more than with Amazon and Bezos. The Football League predates the foreign investors. They chose to buy into symbiotic relationships. Just because they brought wealth to their seats doesn't guarantee some right to suck up even more wealth and control. If they want their developmental league to be free and the right to monopolize the market, go back to the NFL where we've codified monopolies. Otherwise, GTFO.


Really all your answers come down to tradition.  Talking about "responsibilities" where no such responsibilities are codified in any way, is not really how business works.  What works is giving up something to get something.  Of course that doesn't mean the initial proposal was great, but the conversation will start and likely change the way things are done. 

“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Pakuni

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3031 on: October 18, 2020, 06:41:28 PM »
They are part of the league system and all clubs in the system have responsibilities to it. Again, if the investors don't want to be in a business that is connected to dozens of other similar businesses, invest elsewhere.

This virus has exposed many issues in our societies that have fattened the coffers of bigger businesses while bankrupting smaller ones. Sorry, but it's not in my nature to side with the Glazers and Man United any more than with Amazon and Bezos. The Football League predates the foreign investors. They chose to buy into symbiotic relationships. Just because they brought wealth to their seats doesn't guarantee some right to suck up even more wealth and control. If they want their developmental league to be free and the right to monopolize the market, go back to the NFL where we've codified monopolies. Otherwise, GTFO.

This is basically an "unwritten rules" argument. You're inventing responsibilities and relationships that simply do not exist. If these connections and liabilities were in place, as you suggest, there would be nothing to negotiate here. The fact negotiations are taking place is because nothing exists that says the owners of PL clubs have a responsibility to prop up or bail out failing lower-tier clubs.

What's in your nature is irrelevant here. What you think is fair or just is irrelevant here.
Do I think the billionaire PL owners should help out the lower leagues? Absolutely. But what I think is right or what I think they should do is entirely different than your suggestion that they're somehow obligated to do it. They are not. And because they're not is why this is a negotiation. If you want to PL owners to hand over billions of dollars to prop up other clubs, you need to offer them more than a guilt trip. You need to make it in their interests.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 06:49:12 PM by Pakuni »

brewcity77

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3032 on: October 18, 2020, 08:20:26 PM »
Do your part or GTFO. If they aren't willing to play their part in the Football League, they should invest their money elsewhere. No surprise that all of this is stemming from two Americans.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3033 on: October 19, 2020, 07:37:40 AM »
Do your part or GTFO. If they aren't willing to play their part in the Football League, they should invest their money elsewhere. No surprise that all of this is stemming from two Americans.

What "part?"  Where does it say anywhere that their "part" is to provide $$$ to the lower league teams so they can survive AND expect nothing in return?

Again, I don't have a problem if you say the proposal put forward by Liverpool and United isn't a good one.  But the idea that they should willingly give up $$$, and get nothing in return (elimination of League Cup, 18 team Premier League), isn't a good one either.  And that idea won't be supported by the other PL owners either, regardless if they are American or not.
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3034 on: October 19, 2020, 02:19:08 PM »
What "part?"  Where does it say anywhere that their "part" is to provide $$$ to the lower league teams so they can survive AND expect nothing in return?

Again, I don't have a problem if you say the proposal put forward by Liverpool and United isn't a good one.  But the idea that they should willingly give up $$$, and get nothing in return (elimination of League Cup, 18 team Premier League), isn't a good one either.  And that idea won't be supported by the other PL owners either, regardless if they are American or not.

What part has "The Big Six" done to stake their own claim to the league? United haven't won since 2013, Arsenal haven't even been in the top four since that time, let alone won the league. What's it been now, over 15 years? Spurs have quite literally not won a top flight title in over half a century and before Klopp, Liverpool was garbage for years.

I don't mind getting rid of the League Cup. FA cup is more than enough, but if they had it their way, Leicester gets relegated before they win the title, it's just a mess. Soccer doesn't have a minor league system. Academy games are "meh" you'd be compromising the quality of the premier league if those lower leagues die out.

Pakuni

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3035 on: October 20, 2020, 08:39:01 AM »
The plot thickens:

@SkySportsNews
BREAKING: Liverpool and Manchester United among top clubs in talks over bombshell plot to join new FIFA-backed 'European Premier League'

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3036 on: October 20, 2020, 08:53:09 AM »
The plot thickens:

@SkySportsNews
BREAKING: Liverpool and Manchester United among top clubs in talks over bombshell plot to join new FIFA-backed 'European Premier League'

Now THIS is something that I think is a terrible idea.
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Pakuni

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JWags85

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3038 on: October 20, 2020, 09:05:02 AM »
So a Champions League knockoff backed by FIFA that sees those corrupt idiots wet their beak instead of UEFA. Classic.  And I agree with others, just a horrible idea. You’d have to also think that supporters would balk pretty aggressively at this

MUfan12

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3039 on: October 20, 2020, 09:20:07 AM »
So a Champions League knockoff backed by FIFA that sees those corrupt idiots wet their beak instead of UEFA. Classic.  And I agree with others, just a horrible idea. You’d have to also think that supporters would balk pretty aggressively at this

Near universal negative reaction to this already.

I think there's a fair deal to be had in England, but just so many competing interests. Not sure this is the best leverage play, however.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3040 on: October 20, 2020, 11:47:28 AM »
ManU currently sits 15th in the table (it's early), they probably wouldnt even qualify for this corrupt venture.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3041 on: October 20, 2020, 11:55:32 AM »
ManU currently sits 15th in the table (it's early), they probably wouldnt even qualify for this corrupt venture.

Well first, you're looking at the table before Halloween, when it shouldn't have any consideration before Christmas.  Second, they have a game in hand, win that, and they're 7th, one spot ahead of the first team to ever blow a 3 goal lead in the final 8 minutes.

jesmu84

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3042 on: October 20, 2020, 12:10:28 PM »
Well first, you're looking at the table before Halloween, when it shouldn't have any consideration before Christmas.  Second, they have a game in hand, win that, and they're 7th, one spot ahead of the first team to ever blow a 3 goal lead in the final 8 minutes.

I'm sorry. Did you just try to prop up ManU in the same breath as knocking the team that just slaughtered them 6-1 on the road?

Its DJOver

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3043 on: October 20, 2020, 12:14:03 PM »
I'm sorry. Did you just try to prop up ManU in the same breath as knocking the team that just slaughtered them 6-1 on the road?

Not at all, I hate United, thought that result was hilarious, and think they'll get thrashed today, but the fact remains that should they win their game in hand (against Burnley), they would be ahead of that team that beat them 6-1, partially due to a pretty BS red.

Pakuni

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3044 on: October 20, 2020, 01:19:02 PM »
Not at all, I hate United, thought that result was hilarious, and think they'll get thrashed today, but the fact remains that should they win their game in hand (against Burnley), they would be ahead of that team that beat them 6-1, partially due to a pretty BS red.

Not sure there's any wiggle room for a red when you smack an opponent in the face, regardless of how soft it may have been or how much said opponent flops.
But yeah, without that red it would have been a mere 4-1 home loss. Hang a banner.

Its DJOver

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3045 on: October 20, 2020, 01:36:54 PM »
Not sure there's any wiggle room for a red when you smack an opponent in the face, regardless of how soft it may have been or how much said opponent flops.
But yeah, without that red it would have been a mere 4-1 home loss. Hang a banner.

Well, it was 2-1 when the red was issued.  I also have no problem giving Martial a red, but, if you're going to do that, there is no reason that Lamela shouldn't have gotten one as well. Down 2-1 with both teams playing with 10 with an hour to go is a whole different scenario than down 2-1 and a man down with an hour to go.  Also, scoring 4 goals in a hour against 10 men is not overly impressive, scoring 3 in 8 minutes against 11 to salvage a point, very impressive.

To be clear, I think it is objectively funny whenever a "big" team losses big.  Whether it is United losing to Spurs, Liverpool losing to Villa, or City losing to Leicester, it's funny.  However, I can also look at teams that I don't like and objectively say that they either benefited or got screwed over by a refs decision. I hate Liverpool almost as much as I hate United, but I can still say that they got screwed over both when Pickford wasn't sent off, and when Mane was ruled offsides.  Still hate the club, but they did get screwed by Oliver.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3046 on: October 20, 2020, 01:47:07 PM »
Well first, you're looking at the table before Halloween, when it shouldn't have any consideration before Christmas.  Second, they have a game in hand, win that, and they're 7th, one spot ahead of the first team to ever blow a 3 goal lead in the final 8 minutes.

Apparently sarcasm isn't your strong point.

This new super league has proposed a 20 year no relegation and size of club over results.  #2 guarantees united a spot.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3047 on: October 20, 2020, 01:52:19 PM »
Apparently sarcasm isn't your strong point.

This new super league has proposed a 20 year no relegation and size of club over results.  #2 guarantees united a spot.

Think you might have misinterpreted my comments.  In no way, am I in support of this Super League.  However, the current table (which you brought up) is in no way relevant.  I understand that you just wanted to take a shot at a rival club, but you then have to understand that once you do that, you open yourself up to having to deal with shots fired at your club.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3048 on: October 20, 2020, 02:05:56 PM »
Think you might have misinterpreted my comments.  In no way, am I in support of this Super League.  However, the current table (which you brought up) is in no way relevant.  I understand that you just wanted to take a shot at a rival club, but you then have to understand that once you do that, you open yourself up to having to deal with shots fired at your club.

Dude.  The sarcasm was using the current table as my "argument."  No chit its not relevant right now.
And I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it – you've got to go sometime.    — Gerry O'Driscoll

Its DJOver

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Re: Futbol Talk
« Reply #3049 on: October 20, 2020, 02:10:22 PM »
Dude.  The sarcasm was using the current table as my "argument."  No chit its not relevant right now.

I understand what aspect of your comment was sarcasm.  I also understand that your comment was meant to be a shot at United.  Do you understand that once you start taking shots at other teams, you open yourself up to shots about your team?