Futbol Talk

[JWags85]

Wags and Panda

You guys are Liverpool fans, you're always going to stand up for your team, your coach, and take a dump on United whenever you get the chance.  I get it, I respect it, but try to look at this through neutral eyes.  Liverpool spent 123 mil on their front line.  That front line in now worth 350 mil.  Is part of that good scouting/development? Sure, but you can't deny that a 280% increase in the span of 4 years doesn't have some element of good luck to it.  The closest increase I could find in the Prem was City, who have spent 170 on their front line that is now worth 265, for a 150% increase.  That also includes pre-Neymar purchases of Aguero and Sterling.  Now Liverpool's scouting/development may be better than City's, but do you really believe that it's almost twice as good?  I sure don't.

I think Klopp is a good manager, I think Liverpool is fun to watch.  But I also believe that they have caught some very fortuitous breaks under his reign.  That's not a knock on Klopp or Liverpool, Pep was lucky that he walked into a squad that had KDB, David Silva, Fernandinho, Kompany, and Aguero.  Pep was lucky that Stones cleared the ball of the line against Liverpool last year.  And for the record, I'm not an anti-Liverpool, pro United guy.  The team I support isn't even in the Prem, so not to flex or anything, but I usually look at stuff like this with unbiased eyes. 

If you guys are gonna stay up and continue this discussion, I hope you won't be up at the break of dawn to watch Sheffield get pounded.   

It has nothing to do with United. I dislike post-title City and Arsenal far more than United.  I just get annoyed by bandwagon United fans in the states but that’s simmered

And I was speaking more to your overall point about “luck”. LFC is just the club I know best and you specifically called out some of their moves.

I think the appreciation of Liverpool players is far more logical than “luck”. Firmino was a good player coming off a semi-disappointing season at a mid table Hoffenheim after being a breakout star the year before. His value probably ticked down 5-10 million than if he was sold after 13-14. Mane had a nice pre-transfer year with a surprising Soton team, but was tied for 15th in the EPL scoring with two of his teammates.

They joined a Liverpool team that was coming off a disappointing 6th place finish and then a team that surprised into a Europa final but stumbled to 8th and would miss Europe in Mane’s first year. Then Liverpool broke out the last 2 years, free flowing offense allowed them to score in bushels, and they became a force in the CL and then won.  They went from being fair or possibly undervalued due to not being you starlets or on bright light teams, and then now are overinflated in value cause of the CL effect. If Liverpool finished 2-3rd in the league last year and bowed out in the CL quarters, we’re not talking about that percentage increase, it’s likely lower than City’s.  Their valuations are like Divincenzo becoming a near lottery pick cause he played well in a natty team. Wright wasn’t lucky but he also wasn’t probably that level of pick either. Just a snapshot in time when hype was high.

Klopp took over a mess of a team with no identity or pieces to fit how they should play (Benteke is a fish out of water in Rodgers or Klopp’s system). He’s been fortunate in no severe injuries, I could give you lucky there. He crafted successful teams at Mainz and BVB with a smaller budget finding pieces and players that fit his scheme. He did the same at Liverpool but had the ability to not have to narrow the search based on budget. Pep is a great race car driver that jumped into a Ferrari. Klopp got into a car with a team of good mechanics and the resources to improve and they built a comparable car over the next few seasons without an engine exploding or tires blowing out.

I’m doing what I always do with 6AM matches, record it, turn off my alerts and text notifications, and watch when I wake up

[Its DJOver]

Pep is a great race car driver that jumped into a Ferrari. Klopp got into a car with a team of good mechanics and the resources to improve and they built a comparable car over the next few seasons without an engine exploding or tires blowing out.

I think this is a well reasoned take.  I'd argue that their value was at it's highest right after their loss to Madrid.  Salah put up his 32, Firmino put up 15, and Mane only put up 10, but they each got 10 in the Champions League.  Despite winning the Champions League last year, their numbers dropped almost across the board (Mane scored twice as many in the Prem).

My whole "luck" thing comes from all the Scousers I know that insisted that they knew Salah was going to blow up the way he did because he put up good numbers in Seria A.  As you pointed out Firmino struggled his last year in Germany and only has the one 20 goal season, yet he continually seems to land in the discussion for best striker in the Prem.  Mane's last year at hampton was solid, but he was behind players like Troy Deeney, and Odion Ighalo on that years scoring list.  Now Klopps obviously made him better, but to pretend like you knew it was coming, IDK.  And yea, Salah scored 15 his last year at Roma, but look at players like Dzeko, Higuin, and Lukaku (limited sample size).  They all put up good number in Seria A, but couldn't replicate it in England (although Lukaku does have 3, 20 goal seasons his last year in Manchester, yuk). 

Also, and I know it's not everyone (and likely not you), and every fanbase has their crazies, but OMG Liverpool fans are arrogant,.  It seems to be a much larger percentage than other fanbases too, and it attracts the crazy band-wagoners that just want to be arrogant and obnoxious.

[MUDPT]

Moving down a few levels.....any of you following the Mingos so far this year?

Up the 'Gos!  It's a cool story.  Two of the section leaders are huge Arsenal supporters.  The guys that run the podcast are Liverpool.  In all seriousness, Peter Wilt is a genius and I'm unsure why he isn't working with an MLS club or the Federation.

[JWags85]

I think this is a well reasoned take.  I'd argue that their value was at it's highest right after their loss to Madrid.  Salah put up his 32, Firmino put up 15, and Mane only put up 10, but they each got 10 in the Champions League.  Despite winning the Champions League last year, their numbers dropped almost across the board (Mane scored twice as many in the Prem).

My whole "luck" thing comes from all the Scousers I know that insisted that they knew Salah was going to blow up the way he did because he put up good numbers in Seria A.  As you pointed out Firmino struggled his last year in Germany and only has the one 20 goal season, yet he continually seems to land in the discussion for best striker in the Prem.  Mane's last year at hampton was solid, but he was behind players like Troy Deeney, and Odion Ighalo on that years scoring list.  Now Klopps obviously made him better, but to pretend like you knew it was coming, IDK.  And yea, Salah scored 15 his last year at Roma, but look at players like Dzeko, Higuin, and Lukaku (limited sample size).  They all put up good number in Seria A, but couldn't replicate it in England (although Lukaku does have 3, 20 goal seasons his last year in Manchester, yuk). 

Also, and I know it's not everyone (and likely not you), and every fanbase has their crazies, but OMG Liverpool fans are arrogant,.  It seems to be a much larger percentage than other fanbases too, and it attracts the crazy band-wagoners that just want to be arrogant and obnoxious.

I could see it both ways.  Numbers were highest, but then last year showed it wasn't a fluke.

Well thats just silly.  Like I said, my best friend and I who grew up as Liverpool fans together were most stoked because we remembered almost getting Salah before he went to Chelsea.  And that was still middling Liverpool who always lost on top guys to Man Utd/City and Chelsea.  He played well at Roma, so it seemed like it would work out.  Never expected him to go supernova like that.

Firmino is nowhere near the best striker in the Prem, but I'd argue he's more valuable than Mane, because the little things he does in attack.  He's easily the best passer of the 3.

But that goes to the greater point.  Klopp's system is like a pass happy offense in CFB/NFL that allow QBs and WRs to put up big numbers.  But its not inflated against cupcakes cause its the best top to bottom league in the world.  But it allows attacking players to thrive and if they are opportunistic, they will have chances.  If you're a scorer, your value and shine will immeasurably grow playing in a system like that, even if you were just as good on a diff less offensive team.  Klopp's usage of his RB/LB which has allowed Robertson to grow by leaps and bounds and fasttracked TAA to England mainstay is just as impressive.

If there is one thing Ive learned about English soccer supporters, they all have their arrogances.  Whether it be about trophies, or being "better" fans, or better history.  I met arrogant Palace fans at Selhurst last year.  Not cocky or antagonistic, flat out arrogant.  It baffled me.  But Liverpool is having their time in the sun.  As much as I hate the comparison, its like the Celtics.  They are the second most successful club in England domestically, first in Europe.  That garners a lot of pride and some arrogance.  But they've been wandering in the wilderness for 20+ years until recently, save for 2005. So it was muted.  Now suddenly Liverpool is a power again, and year in year out contender, not a flash like 13-14, so they have something to be arrogant about again.  They've been starved for a reason to be boastful, so its out double time.  When I was in college in the mid 2000s and in Chicago during the 2010 and 2014 World Cups, finding a Liverpool fan was fun.  Talking Michael Owen and fav Stevie G goals.  Now they are unnatural carnal knowledgeing everywhere.  Its the most fun Ive had as a fan, but its just like the United stuff in the 90s and 2000s that was annoying.  But such are the trappings of success.

[Its DJOver]

I think that game is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make.  Was Liverpool the better team, yes, did they create the better chances, yes, did Sheffield deserve a point,  absolutely.  Last year Liverpool won more points in the final 10 minutes of games than anyone else.  Whether the Sturridge equalizer against Chelsea, the Alderweireld own goal, Fabinho flopping to get the winning set piece against Newcastle, or Pickford literally handing them all three points after a VVD miskick.  Do other teams get lucky breaks, sure.  Sterling scored so many stoppage time winners two years ago that the City fans I know started calling it "sterling time" (mostly just to piss of the United fans that would still only talk about Fergie time).  Yea more of these breaks are going to happen when you have 70% possession and launch 16 shots, but to a neutral, that game should have ended 0-0.

[panda]

I think that game is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make.  Was Liverpool the better team, yes, did they create the better chances, yes, did Sheffield deserve a point,  absolutely.  Last year Liverpool won more points in the final 10 minutes of games than anyone else.  Whether the Sturridge equalizer against Chelsea, the Alderweireld own goal, Fabinho flopping to get the winning set piece against Newcastle, or Pickford literally handing them all three points after a VVD miskick.  Do other teams get lucky breaks, sure.  Sterling scored so many stoppage time winners two years ago that the City fans I know started calling it "sterling time" (mostly just to piss of the United fans that would still only talk about Fergie time).  Yea more of these breaks are going to happen when you have 70% possession and launch 16 shots, but to a neutral, that game should have ended 0-0.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Racine native and RB Salzburg manager Jesse Marsch's pre-game speach yesterday before they faced Liverpool in the Champions League.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1wFH_2YnI&feature=youtu.be

The only words I understood were "f*cking" and "Champions League," but that even fired me up.  This guy's probably too big to manage the USMNT now right?

[JWags85]

Racine native and RB Salzburg manager Jesse Marsch's pre-game speach yesterday before they faced Liverpool in the Champions League.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1wFH_2YnI&feature=youtu.be

The only words I understood were "f*cking" and "Champions League," but that even fired me up.  This guy's probably too big to manage the USMNT now right?

I love Jesse Marsch. Story is amazing. Disastrous season in Montreal, not a great start to a coaching career.  But what a comeback, in literally just over 4 years, he went from a college assistant coach, to the skipper of a club in the Champions League, and likely easy fav to win their domestic league.

Is he too big to manage the USMNT?  Absolutely not.  Love him or hate him, but Klinnsman coached a top 3 national team and a top 5 club in the world before taking over the USMNT.  Even if Marsch was coaching RB Leipzig and not Salzburg, I wouldn't say he was too big for the gig, especially as an American with experience in the program.  Now is he on the radar?  Who knows, the dip**** administration may dislike him cause he dared spurn MLS for something greater.  Talk about betting on yourself though.

Also, impressive speaking serviceable German as the primary language to address your team.  He's been there for a year.  Goes back to one of my pet peeves.  Athletes and coaches who seemingly make no effort to pick up the native tongue where you're employed.  Its not just a US thing (though I'm baffled when guys spend 5+ years in a US professional sport and can't speak conversationally in the most widely distributed language in the world), Bale has been in Spain for 6 years and speaks barely any Spanish.  Same with guys in the EPL.  Its not as if you're being asked to learn Chinese or Bulgarian.

[Its DJOver]

Cuba is baaaaaad

[MUDPT]

Cuba is baaaaaad

Can’t see how Mexico/ US federations can be happy about this. If they wanted to do this, why not just add South America too?

[Its DJOver]

Can’t see how Mexico/ US federations can be happy about this. If they wanted to do this, why not just add South America too?

Because it's related to WC qualifying and you can't mix CONCACAF and COMNEBOL. Nations League is stupid everywhere, but its be impossible to mix federations.

[mu03eng]

Cuba is baaaaaad

US is not good either....lost badly to the f'ing Canucks

[JWags85]

Since Berhalter took over, the USMNT has gotten smacked by Venezuela, lost twice to Mexico and wasnt competitive in either, snuck by Curacao while getting out-possessed and out-shot, and now got dominated by Canada (Canada could have won that 3-0,4-0 easily). The team has looked listless and lacking ideas in attack against all but the worst competition like Cuba. It’s not a talent issue, though team selection and lineups certainly aren’t indicative.

The hire was spurious at best, and has proven to be as disappointing as originally thought. But even better? Earnie Stewart, who would make the call to fire Ol Gregg....reports to his brother. US Soccer is a nepotism special, complete disaster, and shows no sign of improving

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/10/16/usmnt-canada-loss-us-soccer-berhalter-crisis

[drewm88]

Watched the last 20 minutes. U.S. looked like it was the last match of a group stage they'd already won. Zero urgency.

[Its DJOver]

https://twitter.com/PhilSchoen/status/1187355011019345921

Dest deciding on USA/NET this week.  Would be huge to get him, but not holding my breath.

[JWags85]

https://twitter.com/PhilSchoen/status/1187355011019345921

Dest deciding on USA/NET this week.  Would be huge to get him, but not holding my breath.

Fighting for playing time for the Orange is probably better than missing call ups in favor of Nick Lima or Reggie Cannon cause they play in MLS and he's just some unfamiliar Champions League starter off in Europe.

[Its DJOver]

Fighting for playing time for the Orange is probably better than missing call ups in favor of Nick Lima or Reggie Cannon cause they play in MLS and he's just some unfamiliar Champions League starter off in Europe.

TBF he was called up last international break, he just turned it down because he had yet to make this decision and didn't want to commit for life.  That said, if I were him I'd take the Dutch all day.

[JWags85]

TBF he was called up last international break, he just turned it down because he had yet to make this decision and didn't want to commit for life.  That said, if I were him I'd take the Dutch all day.

Oh I know.  I was just speaking to the Feds tendencies in general.  Dest is a better version of Yedlin.  This isn't a Julian Green situation at Bayern, this is by all accounts, someone who factors prominently into Ajax's plans given his CL appearances and steady domestic appearances.

[jesmu84]

Nice.

[Its DJOver]

https://twitter.com/AFCAjax/status/1188838647975596040

Surprised but happy.  Much clearer path to playing time must have been a huge influence.

[JWags85]

https://twitter.com/AFCAjax/status/1188838647975596040

Surprised but happy.  Much clearer path to playing time must have been a huge influence.

HUGE! Between him and the Chosen One have a breakout performance on Saturday, its been a nice couple of days for the future of the USMNT

[brewcity77]

HUGE! Between him and the Chosen One have a breakout performance on Saturday, its been a nice couple of days for the future of the USMNT

I just hope Berhalter starts to figure it out. All the talent in the world is useless if you can't create a cohesive gameplan to win with it.

[Its DJOver]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11675/11865128/mauricio-pochettino-sacked-by-tottenham

So who would have predicted Poch going before Ole or Unai?

[Pakuni]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11675/11865128/mauricio-pochettino-sacked-by-tottenham

So who would have predicted Poch going before Ole or Unai?

This makes complete sense and no sense whatsoever at the same time.