Futbol Talk

[Its DJOver]

He’s a fantastic businessman. But do you want to be 90s/00s Man Utd, what Liverpool is becoming, or do you want to be Ajax?

Well I guess we're gonna see, now that their stadium is paid for.  They shelled out big for Ndombele, Lo Celso, and Sessegnon.  If they shell out big on Erikson potential new contract (he's only on 75K a week right now), and bring in some quality CBs once Vertongen and Alderweireld are off the books they'll be a lot closer to a "big club" than an "academy club".  With all the money being dumped into the "big 6" as well as the Prem as a whole, I don't think any one team will ever be as dominant as those 90's United or 70s Liverpool teams were (although City might be able to stake that claim after their last 24 months), but Spurs can definitely be right up there.  They're at a pretty big crossroads right now with the stadium done and Erikson/Kane attracting quite a bit of attention from Real.

[panda]

If you actually look at the deals that they have made, Spurs have been one of the smartest clubs in the world about buying low and selling high.  Considering what and where they've spent it's kinda amazing that they're as good as they are.

In:
Erikson 15 mil
Alli 7.5 mil
Dier 5 mil
Alderweireld 18 mil
Son 35 mil
Wanyama 16
Foyth 14
Aurier 28
Moura 32

Out:
25 mil for Trippier
60 mil for Walker
18 mil for Chadli
18 mil for Townsend (probably could have gotten more)
Doesn't even include the high fees for Bale and Modric (probably could have gotten more for Modric, but when Real come calling there's only so much you can do).

Then you look at their academy graduates:
Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters, Skipp (Bale and Modric are technically Southampton and Zagreb graduates, but considering the age they were bought and the profit turned on them, it's just as impressive)

All while building a 1 billion euro new stadium, while staying competitive on the field.

Yes the lack of silverware is concerning, but Daniel Levy absolutely knows what he's doing

Smart business doesn’t equal trophies. Spurs are so close to getting over the hump but they just don’t recruit the way a big club needs to.

Look at what Liverpool did the past couple of seasons with the purchases of Alison, van Dijk and Fabinho. Liverpool was an exciting, attacking team but struggled with consistency because they leaked goals. They went out, debatably spent over the top on game changing players, but improved greatly on their weaknesses. They won Europe and were millimeters away from winning the league.

Spurs on the other hand have made nice nice signings, Moura/Son/Alderwield the past couple of seasons as you mentioned. Those signings are good enough to compete for top 4 in the prem, but not good enough to be a constant threat in the knockouts of Champions League or compete for the league.

[Its DJOver]

Smart business doesn’t equal trophies. Spurs are so close to getting over the hump but they just don’t recruit the way a big club needs to.

Look at what Liverpool did the past couple of seasons with the purchases of Alison, van Dijk and Fabinho. Liverpool was an exciting, attacking team but struggled with consistency because they leaked goals. They went out, debatably spent over the top on game changing players, but improved greatly on their weaknesses. They won Europe and were millimeters away from winning the league.

Spurs on the other hand have made nice nice signings, Moura/Son/Alderwield the past couple of seasons as you mentioned. Those signings are good enough to compete for top 4 in the prem, but not good enough to be a constant threat in the knockouts of Champions League or compete for the league.

Well Spurs did make it to the Champions League Final, so I would classify that as being a threat in the Knockout Stages.  I also think that Liverpool got a little lucky with how VVD turned out.  I mean everyone knew he was good, but if Southampton knew that he'd be a legit Ballon D'or candidate within 24 months they would have slapped a much higher price tag on him.  They also got Salah on the very cheap because Roma had to sell because of their FFP situation.  Not trying to take anything away from Liverpool because they've deserved what they've gotten, but they've had two relatively low key signings turn out to be world class, and still only have one real trophy to show for it. 

[panda]

Well Spurs did make it to the Champions League Final, so I would classify that as being a threat in the Knockout Stages.  I also think that Liverpool got a little lucky with how VVD turned out.  I mean everyone knew he was good, but if Southampton knew that he'd be a legit Ballon D'or candidate within 24 months they would have slapped a much higher price tag on him.  They also got Salah on the very cheap because Roma had to sell because of their FFP situation.  Not trying to take anything away from Liverpool because they've deserved what they've gotten, but they've had two relatively low key signings turn out to be world class, and still only have one real trophy to show for it.

*Consistent threat. Not one hit wonder.

VVD was the most expensive defender in the world after his purchase. Salah tore up Serie A and Liverpool bought him below market rate rather than paying over the top for other attackers who moved that off season.

Smart business is finding world class players below market value who fit into your style of play. Easier said than done, but Totenham’s smart business is being a selling club whereas top European clubs smart business is actually winning trophies.

[Its DJOver]

*Consistent threat. Not one hit wonder.

VVD was the most expensive defender in the world after his purchase. Salah tore up Serie A and Liverpool bought him below market rate rather than paying over the top for other attackers who moved that off season.

Smart business is finding world class players below market value who fit into your style of play. Easier said than done, but Totenham’s smart business is being a selling club whereas top European clubs smart business is actually winning trophies.

There's more to being a top club than spending a lot of money.  Lets look at the defenders that Man U has bought since Fergie left.

Daley Blind 20 mil
Marcos Rojo 20 mil
Luke Shaw 40 mil
Matteo Darmian 20 mil
Eric Bailey 40 mil
Victor Lindelof 40 mil
Diogo Dalot 25 mil
Defensive Midfielder Nemanja Matic 50 mil
Defensive Midfielder Fred 65 mil
Total 300+ Million dollars.

They conceded 54 goals in 38 Prem games last year (something like most in half a century), while playing in front of arguably a top 5 keeper in the world.  Then they go out and pay 90 mil for Maguire, 65 mil for Wan-Bissaka and have already lost 2 out of 6 games this season. 

It's easy to say spend in areas of need.  Actually doing it effectively takes both a lot of money and quite a bit of luck.  Now Spurs are not without criticism, but considering their smaller budget (relative to other "top European clubs") and the fact that they spent 1 billion on a new stadium (more than it would have cost to sign 4 Neymars) they're doing fine. 

Also, losing players to Real Madrid hardly makes you a "selling club", unless Chelsea, Man City, Juventus, Bayern, Man U, Spurs, Liverpool and AC Milan are all selling clubs.

[panda]

There's more to being a top club than spending a lot of money.  Lets look at the defenders that Man U has bought since Fergie left.

Daley Blind 20 mil
Marcos Rojo 20 mil
Luke Shaw 40 mil
Matteo Darmian 20 mil
Eric Bailey 40 mil
Victor Lindelof 40 mil
Diogo Dalot 25 mil
Defensive Midfielder Nemanja Matic 50 mil
Defensive Midfielder Fred 65 mil
Total 300+ Million dollars.

They conceded 54 goals in 38 Prem games last year (something like most in half a century), while playing in front of arguably a top 5 keeper in the world.  Then they go out and pay 90 mil for Maguire, 65 mil for Wan-Bissaka and have already lost 2 out of 6 games this season. 

It's easy to say spend in areas of need.  Actually doing it effectively takes both a lot of money and quite a bit of luck.  Now Spurs are not without criticism, but considering their smaller budget (relative to other "top European clubs") and the fact that they spent 1 billion on a new stadium (more than it would have cost to sign 4 Neymars) they're doing fine. 

Also, losing players to Real Madrid hardly makes you a "selling club", unless Chelsea, Man City, Juventus, Bayern, Man U, Spurs, Liverpool and AC Milan are all selling clubs.

They can’t retain their best players as teams above them in stature continue to poach them which limits their growth as a club. What would you call that?

If you’re using United’s transfer “strategy” to justify your point, LOL. The fall from grace United’s seen since Ferguson retired is comical and most of it is due to the fact they’ve significantly overpaid for almost all of their big name transfers (as well as single handedly over inflated the transfer market, but story for a different day)…

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Spurs are the only the only one of the "Big Six" not to win a trophy in the last five years.  They are also on their longest trophy-less streak since before WW2.

[JWags85]

There's more to being a top club than spending a lot of money.  Lets look at the defenders that Man U has bought since Fergie left.

You're making 2 different points.  You said Liverpool got lucky with VVD cause Soton didn't know what they had.  Then it was correctly highlighted that VVD was a record signing.  Now its spending a lot of money isn't enough?  Liverpool correctly assessed talent, paid what seemed like a princely sum, but trusted it was worth it.

Speaking of Salah, I never expected the heights he's reached, but Liverpool wanted him desperately in 2014 before he went to Chelsea, they were 3MM short then.  They didn't cheap around when they got another chance.  They've certainly not been shy about opening their wallet, but they've been incredible at talent evaluation and finding players to fit over the last 3-4 years.  Alisson, VVD, and Fabinho were pricy but have been worth every penny.  Salah, Mane, and Firmino weren't cheap but they've well exceeded their investment.  Ox and Keita are the only high priced "disappointments" and thats been more an injury issue than anything else.  Looking forward to seeing Keita get back to speed in the next month or two.

Funny, the last brutal LFC signing was Benteke, and he preceded Klopp's arrival by a few months.

[Its DJOver]

They can’t retain their best players as teams above them in stature continue to poach them which limits their growth as a club. What would you call that?

Once again losing players to Real Madrid does not make you a selling club.  The fact that Real has been openly courting Kane for a couple years now and he's still at Spurs tells you all you need to know.  There is no such thing as a "selling club" in the Premier League anymore.  Its a thing of the past.

Spurs are the only the only one of the "Big Six" not to win a trophy in the last five years.  They are also on their longest trophy-less streak since before WW2.

Man U Treble of Community Shield, League Cup and Europa League was pretty impressive wasn't it?

You're making 2 different points.  You said Liverpool got lucky with VVD cause Soton didn't know what they had.  Then it was correctly highlighted that VVD was a record signing.  Now its spending a lot of money isn't enough?  Liverpool correctly assessed talent, paid what seemed like a princely sum, but trusted it was worth it.

Speaking of Salah, I never expected the heights he's reached, but Liverpool wanted him desperately in 2014 before he went to Chelsea, they were 3MM short then.  They didn't cheap around when they got another chance.  They've certainly not been shy about opening their wallet, but they've been incredible at talent evaluation and finding players to fit over the last 3-4 years.  Alisson, VVD, and Fabinho were pricy but have been worth every penny.  Salah, Mane, and Firmino weren't cheap but they've well exceeded their investment.  Ox and Keita are the only high priced "disappointments" and thats been more an injury issue than anything else.  Looking forward to seeing Keita get back to speed in the next month or two.

Funny, the last brutal LFC signing was Benteke, and he preceded Klopp's arrival by a few months.

The point is they've gotten lucky.  If you have a player two years away from a Ballon D'or, you don't sell him no matter what, especially to another English team.  If Roma wasn't in a FFP situation, Salah would have never come.  If you knew that Mane was going to be as good as he is now, you don't sell him for only 40 mil.  No one thought Robertson would be the player he is now when he signed for 9 mil.  This is the same team that paid 45 mil for Benteke, 20 for Cline, 30 for Lallana, 20 for Balotelli, and 20 for Moreno.  The point is that some signings turn out to have good luck, and some have bad luck.  Liverpool's gotten some extreme good luck with some of their signing over the last 36 months, and very little bad.

[panda]

Once again losing players to Real Madrid does not make you a selling club.  The fact that Real has been openly courting Kane for a couple years now and he's still at Spurs tells you all you need to know.  There is no such thing as a "selling club" in the Premier League anymore.  Its a thing of the past.

Man U Treble of Community Shield, League Cup and Europa League was pretty impressive wasn't it?

The point is they've gotten lucky.  If you have a player two years away from a Ballon D'or, you don't sell him no matter what, especially to another English team.  If Roma wasn't in a FFP situation, Salah would have never come.  If you knew that Mane was going to be as good as he is now, you don't sell him for only 40 mil.  No one thought Robertson would be the player he is now when he signed for 9 mil.  This is the same team that paid 45 mil for Benteke, 20 for Cline, 30 for Lallana, 20 for Balotelli, and 20 for Moreno.  The point is that some signings turn out to have good luck, and some have bad luck.  Liverpool's gotten some extreme good luck with some of their signing over the last 36 months, and very little bad.

The fact you think Southampton was ever keeping van Dijk isn’t doing much to help your credibility.

Also to answer your point about getting lucky. Ian Ayre signings vs. Michael Edwards signings. Nuff said.

[Its DJOver]

The fact you think Southampton was ever keeping van Dijk isn’t doing much to help your credibility.

Also to answer your point about getting lucky. Ian Ayre signings vs. Michael Edwards signings. Nuff said.

Southampton were nearly relegated the year they sold VVD.  The cost of relegation is far superior to the 75 mil they got from him.  Had they know that he would blow up to the level that he has, they either would have 1.) not sold him in the winter when prices are almost always lower, and 2.) demanded so much more for him considering he was under contract until 2020.

[panda]

He refused to play for them until they sold him. They received the most they could (record amount) given the circumstances.

[Its DJOver]

He would have sat out a couple of weeks until the window closed.  Then the fines would have gotten so high he would be forced to play until at least the summer, when Southampton could have gotten much more for him.  Especially considering that Man City were also interested and hampton would have preferred a bidding war to to drive up the price.  Had they known then what they know now, he would have been sold in the summer (after helping them stay up) for at least 100 mil, if not more.

[panda]

He would have sat out a couple of weeks until the window closed.  Then the fines would have gotten so high he would be forced to play until at least the summer, when Southampton could have gotten much more for him.  Especially considering that Man City were also interested and hampton would have preferred a bidding war to to drive up the price.  Had they known then what they know now, he would have been sold in the summer (after helping them stay up) for at least 100 mil, if not more.

And then Southampton would’ve sold him for less in the offseason...Stop while you’re behind.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/football/virgil-van-dijk-man-city-173111

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportbible.com/football/transfers-manchester-city-wanted-virgil-van-dijk-to-be-third-choice-centre-back-20190608.amp.html

[Its DJOver]

And then Southampton would’ve sold him for less in the offseason...Stop while you’re behind.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/football/virgil-van-dijk-man-city-173111

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportbible.com/football/transfers-manchester-city-wanted-virgil-van-dijk-to-be-third-choice-centre-back-20190608.amp.html

City outbid?  Good one.

http://7amkickoff.com/index.php/2017/07/25/man-city-have-spent-over-a-billion-euros-on-transfers-in-just-10-years/

 VVD behind Otamendi?  Even better. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhysL6jC9s

[JWags85]

The fact you think Southampton was ever keeping van Dijk isn’t doing much to help your credibility.

Also to answer your point about getting lucky. Ian Ayre signings vs. Michael Edwards signings. Nuff said.

Exactly.  Michael Edwards and the arrival of Jurgen Klopp.  Edwards was on the transfer committee and also in charge of doing analysis on the Daglish and Brendan Rodgers tenures.  Klopp came in with his vision, his plan, and his player style preferences and he and Edwards have a great relationship. 

If you knew that Mane was going to be as good as he is now, you don't sell him for only 40 mil.  No one thought Robertson would be the player he is now when he signed for 9 mil.  This is the same team that paid 45 mil for Benteke, 20 for Cline, 30 for Lallana, 20 for Balotelli, and 20 for Moreno.  The point is that some signings turn out to have good luck, and some have bad luck.  Liverpool's gotten some extreme good luck with some of their signing over the last 36 months, and very little bad.

As mentioned above, completely different administration, manager, and system. Its like saying the Epstein Cubs are lucky based on comparing to the moronic signings of the Hendry era.

And I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where unless you sign top players for peak value, you are lucky.  What do you think scouting and talent evaluation is about?  And its almost like some players managed to take their talents and abilities to the next level playing for one of the top managers in the world on a great team, instead of being a standout for Hull City or Soton.

[Its DJOver]

And I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where unless you sign top players for peak value, you are lucky.  What do you think scouting and talent evaluation is about?  And its almost like some players managed to take their talents and abilities to the next level playing for one of the top managers in the world on a great team, instead of being a standout for Hull City or Soton.

It's not wrong to say that every top club is lucky (possible exception of Real) to some degree.  If you had known Sterling would end up this good, don't you think you would have asked for more (sold for 60, now worth 140)?  If Chelsea had known that De Bruyne and Salah would be this good, do you think they would have ever let them go?  Luck is just a part of the game.  The more money you have the larger margin for error you can have.  That's why City can get away with paying 45 mil for Eliquim Mangala, Barca can get away with paying 100 mil for Coutinho, and yes even Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp can get away with players going down in value once they're bought.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/naby-keita/profil/spieler/302215

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Man U Treble of Community Shield, League Cup and Europa League was pretty impressive wasn’t it?

And an FA Cup.

And all of that is more impressive than anything Spurs have won.

[Its DJOver]

And an FA Cup.

And all of that is more impressive than anything Spurs have won.

I'm not defending Spurs lack of silverware, I've commented on how it's worrying multiple times, but Spurs are better both on the pitch and in the boardroom than Man U right now.  The only way I see United picking up another trophy before Spurs is if they snag the Europa League again, which is honestly their best bet at making the Champions League next year.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm not defending Spurs lack of silverware, I've commented on how it's worrying multiple times, but Spurs are better both on the pitch and in the boardroom than Man U right now.  The only way I see United picking up another trophy before Spurs is if they snag the Europa League again, which is honestly their best bet at making the Champions League next year.

I don’t disagree.

[Its DJOver]

I don’t disagree.

That's why I think just looking at trophies alone can be very misleading.  Liverpool have been arguably the best team in England/Europe over the last 24 months, yet they only have 1 (2 with Super Cup) trophy to show for it.  At the same time, City picked up 4 last year and would probably have traded all of them for the one that Liverpool got.  Different clubs, different goals.

[JWags85]

It's not wrong to say that every top club is lucky (possible exception of Real) to some degree.  If you had known Sterling would end up this good, don't you think you would have asked for more (sold for 60, now worth 140)?  If Chelsea had known that De Bruyne and Salah would be this good, do you think they would have ever let them go?  Luck is just a part of the game.  The more money you have the larger margin for error you can have.  That's why City can get away with paying 45 mil for Eliquim Mangala, Barca can get away with paying 100 mil for Coutinho, and yes even Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp can get away with players going down in value once they're bought.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/naby-keita/profil/spieler/302215

With all due respect, it sounds like small budget sour grapes. Spurs have been spending more lately, but all my friends who are Spurs supporters have historically moaned that they won’t spend with their peers.

And so no, I don’t agree. Do they have more margin for error, can they stomach a bad singing easier than someone that isn’t a monster or with Middle Eastern money? Sure. But so much of sports is talent evaluation and managed risk taking.  Sterling wanted to move and they got a good price for him, so they sold. Just like they weren’t “lucky” the way Coutinho worked out. They would have happily kept him even though the huge sum allowed them to invest elsewhere.  Leicester City taking a flier on Jaime Vardy 2 years removed from playing in the 8th level of English football and having him turn into a goal machine English international is lucky. Spending a tidy sum for a good proven player and having him further develop and produce is what transfers are all about. Man Utd hasn’t been unlucky while Liverpool or other have been lucky, they are just terrible at fit assessment and talent valuation. They approach the windows like a 12 year old playing FIFA with an extra money cheat code

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Well I guess we're gonna see, now that their stadium is paid for.  They shelled out big for Ndombele, Lo Celso, and Sessegnon.  If they shell out big on Erikson potential new contract (he's only on 75K a week right now), and bring in some quality CBs once Vertongen and Alderweireld are off the books they'll be a lot closer to a "big club" than an "academy club".  With all the money being dumped into the "big 6" as well as the Prem as a whole, I don't think any one team will ever be as dominant as those 90's United or 70s Liverpool teams were (although City might be able to stake that claim after their last 24 months), but Spurs can definitely be right up there.  They're at a pretty big crossroads right now with the stadium done and Erikson/Kane attracting quite a bit of attention from Real.

Erickson was plan E for Madrid and that move didnt pan out, obvs.  I think that is part of his poor form so far this year.  He had his mind made up that Madrid would be calling, and the call never came.  Hard to regroup once your mind is made up that you want to leave, no matter what your job is.

The GOAT signed a new deal today, good squad move.  I think at least one of Erikson, Toby and Super Jan will sign a new deal before January.

How many of y'all are Spurs fans? 

[Its DJOver]

Wags and Panda

You guys are Liverpool fans, you're always going to stand up for your team, your coach, and take a dump on United whenever you get the chance.  I get it, I respect it, but try to look at this through neutral eyes.  Liverpool spent 123 mil on their front line.  That front line in now worth 350 mil.  Is part of that good scouting/development? Sure, but you can't deny that a 184% increase in the span of 4 years doesn't have some element of good luck to it.  The closest increase I could find in the Prem was City, who have spent 170 on their front line that is now worth 265, for a 55% increase.  That also includes pre-Neymar purchases of Aguero and Sterling.  Now Liverpool's scouting/development may be better than City's, but do you really believe that it's over three times as good?  I sure don't.

I think Klopp is a good manager, I think Liverpool is fun to watch.  But I also believe that they have caught some very fortuitous breaks under his reign.  That's not a knock on Klopp or Liverpool, Pep was lucky that he walked into a squad that had KDB, David Silva, Fernandinho, Kompany, and Aguero.  Pep was lucky that Stones cleared the ball of the line against Liverpool last year.  And for the record, I'm not an anti-Liverpool, pro United guy.  The team I support isn't even in the Prem, so not to flex or anything, but I usually look at stuff like this with unbiased eyes. 

If you guys are gonna stay up and continue this discussion, I hope you won't be up at the break of dawn to watch Sheffield get pounded.     

Edit: Math

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Moving down a few levels.....any of you following the Mingos so far this year?