Futbol Talk

[JoeSmith1721]

But first, a stop in Italy.

NBC Sports Soccer @NBCSportsSoccer
BREAKING: @Cristiano is joining @juventusfc. His transfer has been announced by @realmadrid.

Never thought it would actually happen. I figured he would retire his competitive career at either Real Madrid or back in the Premier League.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Running from the Spanish government and his taxes, eh?

[Litehouse]

For a little WI connection, Kohler was announced as the new sleeve sponsor for Man U.
https://www.manutd.kohler.com/

[MUEng92]

For a little WI connection, Kohler was announced as the new sleeve sponsor for Man U.
https://www.manutd.kohler.com/

When I heard about that, I was picturing something small that only people who already knew Kohler would pick up on.  The font of the name on the sleeve actually seemed much more prominent than I was expecting.

[Litehouse]

When I heard about that, I was picturing something small that only people who already knew Kohler would pick up on.  The font of the name on the sleeve actually seemed much more prominent than I was expecting.

The new kits with the Kohler logo are now available.  Its definitely noticeable.
http://us.store.manutd.com/

[Its DJOver]

Don't know if anyone else saw this, but Rooney absolutely still has the legs and ability to pick a pass to be a contributor in the MLS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soccer-insider/wp/2018/08/12/wayne-rooney-luciano-acosta-combine-for-remarkable-goal-to-lift-d-c-united-over-orlando-city/?utm_term=.0d6d85f7b013

[JWags85]

Don't know if anyone else saw this, but Rooney absolutely still has the legs and ability to pick a pass to be a contributor in the MLS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soccer-insider/wp/2018/08/12/wayne-rooney-luciano-acosta-combine-for-remarkable-goal-to-lift-d-c-united-over-orlando-city/?utm_term=.0d6d85f7b013

I have no love for Man United, and have loved taking shots at Rooney, but this is everything right with the high priced aging stars coming to MLS.  If he's working his butt off two ways and not only glory seeking, he can be a fantastic marketing point and dispel some of the criticisms.

Beyond that, what an absolutely fantastic run back and incredible ball in.  Also, Acosta is like 5'4, so him getting up to win that free header is pretty incredible.

[Henry Sugar]

By the way, my soccer website now has

EPL (2018, 2017, 2016)
https://www.lowedownstats.com/league/epl/

Ligue 1 (2018)
https://www.lowedownstats.com/league/fra/

MLS (2018, 2017, 2016, 2015)
https://www.lowedownstats.com/league/mls/

Liga MX (2017, 2018)
https://www.lowedownstats.com/league/liga-mx/

Note that the Liga MX data is kind of jacked right now.

[Its DJOver]

Can't say the scoreline isn't deserved, but that was an awfully soft penalty. We'll see what happens in the second half.

[Its DJOver]

Much better 2nd half.  Yedlin was the best American out there. His growth since moving to Newcastle is ridiculous. He needs to stick at close to Benitez as possible.

[brewcity77]

It wasn't a bad performance. Created some legit chances in both halves and the penalty was soft as Charmin. Brazil was better, but our kids weren't played off the pitch.

The biggest problem was we had no one to create viable danger without Pulisic. Wood did nothing because no one could get him the ball. The wingers were ineffective in attack & we never got anything going through the middle. Hopefully they will develop into more effective attackers, but our buildup was useless.

While Robinson got skinned a few times by Douglas Costa, I thought the defense was okay. Nothing to be embarrassed about.

What shocked me most wasn't game related. When I saw a promo for next Summer's Gold Cup, I got excited. Like legit "I can't wait" excited. That's a sad indicator of how long we've gone without playing a meaningful match. Really hoping this year brings a lot of positive development for guys like Weah, Sargent, and McKinney. We'll need them sooner rather than later.

[jesmu84]

Arriola and Green were placed in the formation poorly. Neither are really attacking wingers.

Lots to like from that game if you look at it from a development point of view.

Miazga and Brooks will make a fine CB duo through 2022. Possibly subbing one out for CCK, pending development.

Add Pulisic to last night's team, start Weah (sit Wood), play a better formation conducive to our strengths. That's a money team moving forward.

Central mid was solid. Trapp was better than I expected.

[brewcity77]

Add Pulisic to last night's team, start Weah (sit Wood), play a better formation conducive to our strengths. That's a money team moving forward.

I'm torn on striker. Wood didn't do anything yesterday nor for club recently, but he's generally good for the Nats & no striker could've produced with that lack of service.

Jozy is probably the best option of a marginal pool (Wood, Zardes, Sargent, Novakovich). I hope Josh comes good, but he's probably a few years away.

[jesmu84]

I'm torn on striker. Wood didn't do anything yesterday nor for club recently, but he's generally good for the Nats & no striker could've produced with that lack of service.

Jozy is probably the best option of a marginal pool (Wood, Zardes, Sargent, Novakovich). I hope Josh comes good, but he's probably a few years away.

Understandable. I think Jozy is the best option. I'd bring Weah, Sargent and Novakovich as well.

[Its DJOver]

It may just be me, but I've always thought that the U.S. gets just a bit better this time of year.  Quite a few famous results in the early September International Break, most notably a dos a cero to go to the 2006 WC.  I get the feeling that pulling on that jersey is a little more special on a day like Tuesday.  My hope is that we don't lose that extra sense of national pride with the new generation either not being alive, or being to young to remember 9/11, because a good result tomorrow can go a long way in building confidence for more meaningful games.

[jesmu84]

Solid win, even if it was sloppy/boring.

Miazga is man of the match.

Players I think have a great future with the USMNT from watching their play recently (who haven't featured a lot in the past): Steffen, Miazga, Robinson, McKennie, Weah, Adams

[Its DJOver]

Solid win, even if it was sloppy/boring.

Miazga is man of the match.

Players I think have a great future with the USMNT from watching their play recently (who haven't featured a lot in the past): Steffen, Miazga, Robinson, McKennie, Weah, Adams

Agree on all fronts.  The US plays so much better with 2 at the top.  This has been known for quite some time and I'm not quite sure why it took 45 minutes to figure out last night.  Knowing that, along with our roster make-up, I'd strongly be in favor of a 3-5-2.

Back line of Miazga, Brooks, and CCV.  Use Yedlin and Robinson as wing-backs.  Some combination of Adams, McKennie and Trapp anchoring the midfield, allowing Pulisic to be a no. 10.  Feeding a combination of Novakovic, Jozy, Sargent, and Weah (preferably Jozy and Weah).

Starting 11 of Steffen, Miazga, Brooks, CCV, Yedlin, Adams, McKennie, Robinson, Pulisic, Jozy, and Weah.  Average age of just under 22, would increase to just under 23 by the time the first round of WCQ starts.  Oldest player, Jozy at 28.

[brewcity77]

Lainez for me was the best player on the pitch. He just emanated danger every time he was on the ball. Watching him, I imagine that's how the rest of CONCACAF felt when they first saw Pulisic. He's going to be a terror for the next 12-15 years.

On our side, really liked what I saw from Adams. Smart, savvy, and plays older than his years. He has some Michael Bradley in him, albeit in a smaller package.

[jesmu84]

1. Let's discuss Pulisic for a minute...

Do some digging through here and let me know your thoughts: https://twitter.com/MattDoyle76/status/1039674642800291842

Should USMNT play him as a #10? Is it his best position to play on the field for his skillset?

2.  Sarachen has some good qualities. Enstilled in the team shape and discipline. But he doesn't put on formations or players that would support his "we need to attack" philosophy. And he constantly puts players in bad positions (Acosta and Weak as wide mids?)

3. Green successful as an attacking mid?! Who saw that coming?

[Its DJOver]

1. Let's discuss Pulisic for a minute...

Do some digging through here and let me know your thoughts: https://twitter.com/MattDoyle76/status/1039674642800291842

Should USMNT play him as a #10? Is it his best position to play on the field for his skillset?

2.  Sarachen has some good qualities. Enstilled in the team shape and discipline. But he doesn't put on formations or players that would support his "we need to attack" philosophy. And he constantly puts players in bad positions (Acosta and Weak as wide mids?)

3. Green successful as an attacking mid?! Who saw that coming?

1. I'd agree with TT. Pulisic can, has, and will continue to play a no. 10 for the US.  It may not be his natural position, but his natural position is the same as Weah, and you want both of them on the field as much as possible, because they are and will continue to be two of the most talented players we have.

2. I may or may not have mentioned this before, but I'd like to see Tab Ramos as the next HC.  Historically you only get one WC cycle, and we'll still be young in 2022, why not give it to a guy that has worked with a lot of the players before at the youth level, and is already familiar with a international style (only actually coaching 10 games in a calendar year).  He would already know their strengths and be able to play them in their best positions. All this youth should be hitting its prime in 2026, combined with the fact that we're hosting, I would think that it would be a very attractive job then and you can go for a home run hire, but now I'm rambling so I'll get back on point.

3.  I was very impressed with him.  Green, Wood, and Brooks (although for different reasons) need to have good domestic seasons the next couple of years.  Neither Green, nor Wood has proven that they can get the job done in the Bundesliga yet, despite putting up very promising numbers in the Bundesliga II.  Brooks needs to prove that he can stay healthy.  No doubt the talent is there, but that old "what if" he had been healthy to play T+T, and we didn't have to go with Gonzalez and Besler at center back.

[jesmu84]

1. I'd agree with TT. Pulisic can, has, and will continue to play a no. 10 for the US.  It may not be his natural position, but his natural position is the same as Weah, and you want both of them on the field as much as possible, because they are and will continue to be two of the most talented players we have.

2. I may or may not have mentioned this before, but I'd like to see Tab Ramos as the next HC.  Historically you only get one WC cycle, and we'll still be young in 2022, why not give it to a guy that has worked with a lot of the players before at the youth level, and is already familiar with a international style (only actually coaching 10 games in a calendar year).  He would already know their strengths and be able to play them in their best positions. All this youth should be hitting its prime in 2026, combined with the fact that we're hosting, I would think that it would be a very attractive job then and you can go for a home run hire, but now I'm rambling so I'll get back on point.

3.  I was very impressed with him.  Green, Wood, and Brooks (although for different reasons) need to have good domestic seasons the next couple of years.  Neither Green, nor Wood has proven that they can get the job done in the Bundesliga yet, despite putting up very promising numbers in the Bundesliga II.  Brooks needs to prove that he can stay healthy.  No doubt the talent is there, but that old "what if" he had been healthy to play T+T, and we didn't have to go with Gonzalez and Besler at center back.

What about a 4-3-3? In this hypothetical, you'd have something like:

        Weah-Jozy-Pulisic
        McKennie-Acosta
             Bradley
Robinson-Miazga-Brooks-Yedlin

Robinson/Yedlin make overlapping/wing runs as they tend to do. Weah/Pulisic are more attackers who cut inside. Double pivot with McKennie-Acosta.

Could also make a bunch of different combinations of the middle 3 with McKennie/Acosta/Bradley/Adams/Trapp/etc

[brewcity77]

1. Let's discuss Pulisic for a minute...

Do some digging through here and let me know your thoughts: https://twitter.com/MattDoyle76/status/1039674642800291842

Should USMNT play him as a #10? Is it his best position to play on the field for his skillset?

I saw Doyle's commentary last night and it immediately made me think of Clint Dempsey. In MLS and his early USMNT days, Dempsey played primarily as a wing midfielder. Because of Donovan normally out right, Dempsey usually ended up as a left mid that would drift inside. When he got to Fulham, they fairly quickly moved him to playing a center forward position.

In context, this was 2007. At the time, we had Eddie Johnson bursting onto the scene as a goal-scorer, Freddy Adu was the next big thing, and Jozy Altidore was a precocious 17-year-old breaking into the New York Red Bull lineup. We were loaded with young forwards. Americans envisioned a future with the blazing speed of Johnson and strength of Altidore up top, Adu sitting in the 10 spot behind them, and Dempsey and Donovan on the wings. And here's Fulham undermining that by putting him in the middle of the pitch.

Fast forward to today. Johnson never found consistency, Adu was more hype than hope, and it was Dempsey who combined with Altidore while Donovan moved more centrally as his pace started to slow. Dempsey became our joint leading goal scorer and as a forward retired as at worst one of the 2-3 best players ever to pull on the shirt and undoubtedly our most accomplished overseas professional.

The moral of the story is the best position for the player is the one his club team will play him at. The national team manager gets a half-dozen non-consecutive weeks a year to train these guys, the club teams get 9-10 months. The vast majority of their training time is going to be where the club team plays them, their experience and expertise will come where the club team plays them, and a smart national team manager is going to use players in a way that favors the strengths the club team trains into the players.

Is Pulisic a 10? Is he a wing? I think it all comes down to what the club team is doing. Sure, he'll have to drift wide or centrally at times, but trying to force him into a different hole size at the national team level than what he's doing at the club team level is a losing effort.

[Its DJOver]

What about a 4-3-3? In this hypothetical, you'd have something like:

        Weah-Jozy-Pulisic
        McKennie-Acosta
             Bradley
Robinson-Miazga-Brooks-Yedlin

Robinson/Yedlin make overlapping/wing runs as they tend to do. Weah/Pulisic are more attackers who cut inside. Double pivot with McKennie-Acosta.

Could also make a bunch of different combinations of the middle 3 with McKennie/Acosta/Bradley/Adams/Trapp/etc

I think a 4-3-3 could work, although it does raise a few new questions.

I'd be hesitant to use a right footed player (Weah) on the left wing.  Lichaj struggled quite a bit playing on the left side last night, and while I think Weah will be much better than Lichaj, he'd still be playing more out of position than if Pulisic played the no. 10.

Also for the 4-3-3 to work, I think you would have to see major improvement out of at least one of McKennie, Acosta, Adams or Trapp.  It could very well happen, but I haven't seen any of them really take control of an international game and dictate everything the way Pulisic can.  I actually really hope it does happen, because I always want to see young Americans improve, but I think it would have to be McKennie improving at Shalke, or Adams moving to Europe (supposedly RB Liepzig has been interested and that would be a great club for him).

This is obviously only my opinion, but I believe that Michael Bradley will never play for the US again. He'd be 34 for the next WC and the legs just won't be there.  You can make up for that if you have the ability to pick a world class pass, but he doesn't have that either.

Obviously there will be some experimenting, especially initially after a new coach is named, so multiple players will get a chance to prove themselves at multiple positions, but right now I think our best lineup has Pulisic at the no. 10.

[Its DJOver]

I saw Doyle's commentary last night and it immediately made me think of Clint Dempsey. In MLS and his early USMNT days, Dempsey played primarily as a wing midfielder. Because of Donovan normally out right, Dempsey usually ended up as a left mid that would drift inside. When he got to Fulham, they fairly quickly moved him to playing a center forward position.

I think this is an apples to oranges comparison for a couple of reasons. 

When Dempsey first went to Fulham he was going to be used as a winger, but he couldn't get into the team to begin the 2007 season.  He only went up top, because McBride got hurt and Clint needed to play.  Clubs will often throw wingers up top in emergency situations.  The club then converted him.  You're right that it's the clubs call, and they made the correct call, but when he was initially bought the plan was for him to play in the midfield.

Also, Dempsey was supposed to be a part of a solid core.  Pulisic is head and shoulders ahead of every other American.  The 2022 team will absolutely be built around him, the same way that other National Teams build around their stars (Rakitic played much deeped for Croatia than he normally does for Barca because Croatia needed Modric to play the no. 10).  The 2010 and 2014 teams were never going to be built around Dempsey.  He was an integral piece, yes, but he was not as vital as Pulisic will be moving forward. 

[brewcity77]

If Pulisic is playing on the wing 40 weeks a year, I would rather see him playing there than in the middle. If he's playing in the middle, I'd rather see him there than on the wing.

Consider Ronaldo and Messi. Our hope is that Pulisic is one of the next great players in the world. For Portugal, Ronaldo has lifted them to great heights from the wing. There's no doubt he pulls the strings and is their best player from a wide position. The same is true for Messi and Argentina, but from the middle of the pitch. Wherever Pulisic plays, we are hoping he has the ability to take over a game from wherever he is on the pitch. And he'll be more comfortable doing that from whatever position his club team has him in for the vast majority of the year.