Aaric Murray

[NersEllenson]

Why on earth would Davante Gardner want to play two seasons and then sit out a year? Especially if he's going to be better than Robert Jackson (who was better than Aaric Murray)? What sense does it make for Gardner or MU to have the team's best post player on the bench in street clothes?

And under this proposed scheme, what if Otule goes down midseason - not exactly an unlikely proposition given his history - after you've already redshirted Gardner? Do you lift the redshirt in January, wasting a half a season for no good purpose? Try to get by the rest of the season with one post player (who fouled out six times this season and was in foul trouble several other times)?

It would make little (read: no) sense to do this.

I'm not saying Devante would WANT to redshirt - that's obvious - every kid is always going to want to play. But..with Otule and Murray in the mix...it is very unlikely he'd see many minutes at the 5.  Now, if he can develop into a 4 - then no worries on the redshirt...as there will be minutes available at the "4" in 2012-2013.  Murray is practically a 5-star big who has put up some pretty darn good numbers and posseses a skill set MU has not seen in a big man in some time...DG would not beat him out for minutes at the 5 in 2012-2013.

Considering the lack of talented big men at MU in the past...there is NO sense in letting a very talented guy like DG burn a year of eligibility in a season where it is unlikely he'd see a lot of PT (2012-2013).  Plus with DG's body type..it takes longer to re-shape such a body...and thus why it could be personally valuable to him and his long term goals/pro prospects..

[NersEllenson]

I agree Hards. If that happened, I would take my redshirt to another school. Gardner is capable for starting at a number of schools, and there would be a bundle of those schools ready to take him--probably a number far closer to home. Now if he shows up next fall having ballooned up, that would be something different. I do not expect that to happen.

So he transfers elsewhere out of bitterness..and sits out a year anyway??  What does he gain?  MU would likely be a STACKED team in 2013-2014 when he'd return to eligibility...

J Wilson, Jones, Blue, Mayo, Anderson, Murray, Gardner, D Wilson - that's 8 guys who would have 4,3,3,2,2,4,4,2 years of experience in the MU program (or La Salle+MU for Murray)  Talk about a strong team..wow..

[MerrittsMustache]

So he transfers elsewhere out of bitterness..and sits out a year anyway??  What does he gain?  MU would likely be a STACKED team in 2013-2014 when he'd return to eligibility...

J Wilson, Jones, Blue, Mayo, Anderson, Murray, Gardner, D Wilson - that's 8 guys who would have 4,3,3,2,2,4,4,2 years of experience in the MU program (or La Salle+MU for Murray)  Talk about a strong team..wow..

With all those 2s and 4s, shouldn't someone redshirt?

[BCHoopster]

So he transfers elsewhere out of bitterness..and sits out a year anyway??  What does he gain?  MU would likely be a STACKED team in 2013-2014 when he'd return to eligibility...

J Wilson, Jones, Blue, Mayo, Anderson, Murray, Gardner, D Wilson - that's 8 guys who would have 4,3,3,2,2,4,4,2 years of experience in the MU program (or La Salle+MU for Murray)  Talk about a strong team..wow..

How is it stacked?  Lets see, Wilson, not sure how good, Jones, what has he proved, Blue, can not shoot, Gardner, long way to go and
then the three freshman, who knows how they will fit or even can play?

The next two years are much more promising.  If Butler and Anderson can take up the slack for Jimmy Butler, they should be improved as
everybody else should be slightly better.  The following year,  might be a down year losing DJ and Crowder.  The last 2 scholarships available
are key for that year, if they get Murray it just got stronger.  Otherwise, I see a lot of question marks.

[Pakuni]

I'm not saying Devante would WANT to redshirt - that's obvious - every kid is always going to want to play. But..with Otule and Murray in the mix...it is very unlikely he'd see many minutes at the 5.  Now, if he can develop into a 4 - then no worries on the redshirt...as there will be minutes available at the "4" in 2012-2013.  Murray is practically a 5-star big who has put up some pretty darn good numbers and posseses a skill set MU has not seen in a big man in some time...DG would not beat him out for minutes at the 5 in 2012-2013.

So, wait .... Davante Gardner will be better than Robert Jackson, but has no chance of playing with Aaric Murray and Chris Otule on the roster? Hmmm.

[HoopsMalone]

With all those 2s and 4s, shouldn't someone redshirt?

If they are project-type players, then yes.  If they are skilled players who Buzz has a history of replacing, then no.

[HoopsMalone]

Cripes.  Otule didn't flippin redshirt.  

If you did redshirt him in 2011-12 or 2012-13 in all likelihood he wouldn't receive an additional year on his clock (it's not an issue of an additional year of eligibility - he's got 2 years left of eligibility because of the medical hardship waiver... but he's only got 2 years left on his 5-year clock).  "Hi, please give us another year on his clock because we want to redshirt him" probably isn't going to work real well.  Now, if he had another major injury and was unable to play for a year, then he could probably get another year on the clock.. but, an additional year being granted due to the school's choice isn't going to happen because sitting him out is not out of the kid's or school's control.  It would be their decision.

Otule ain't redshirting.  Hasn't ever done it and won't ever do it.  

You cats are mixing up separate things.  They are each very different:
Redshirt = didn't play
Hardship waiver = doesn't count a year of competition even though the student-athlete played during the year
Five-Year Rule waiver = gets more than 5 years once the clock starts due to circumstances beyond the student-athlete and institution's control.

I am not sure of the technicality of Otule's situation, but the point is that he has two more years left, correct? He will be at MU for 5 years?

[Marquette84]

No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing.  

It wasn't a great thing--it was a terrible thing.

First, If Otule had played last year, the depth issue on the 2009-10 team would not have been as much of an issue, Hayward wouldn't have spent the year playing out of position, and we would have had a serviceable center in our lineup.  Its inconceivable that we were a better team without Otule.  With Otule, we would have been a better team in 2009-10--how much better?  Who knows.  Maybe we don't run out of gas against Washington, then easily top New Mexico and make the Sweet 16.

Plus, Otule would have come into THIS year with an additional full season of experience, making him more valuable to the team in 2010-11. Maybe a couple more wins in conference?  Maybe another NCAA win?

Not only was it not a 'great thing' that Otule redshirtted--it probably harmed us in both 2010 and 2011.

Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.

[HoopsMalone]

It wasn't a great thing--it was a terrible thing.

First, If Otule had played last year, the depth issue on the 2009-10 team would not have been as much of an issue, Hayward wouldn't have spent the year playing out of position, and we would have had a serviceable center in our lineup.  Its inconceivable that we were a better without Otule.  With Otule, we would have been a better team in 2009-10--how much better?  Who knows.  Maybe we don't run out of gas against Washington, then easily top New Mexico and make the Sweet 16.

Plus, Otule would have come into THIS year with an additional full season of experience, making him more valuable to the team in 2010-11. Maybe a couple more wins in conference?  Maybe another NCAA win?

Not only was it not a 'great thing' that Otule redshirtted--it probably harmed us in both 2010 and 2011.

Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.

It was no fun having no depth last year.  I think Burke should have been the one out there as a fifth year person.  Clark and McMorrow's situations contributed even more to it, not to mention Mbakwe.  Otule is a big man project.  He was brutal in his short stints during his first two seasons.  He was not coordinated enough to play quite yet.  He was not ready until this season.  Why rush him out there when he was not ready?  It is not his fault that the three guys who should have been ahead of him never ending up coming or staying at MU. 

As far as recruiting, I actually think it is better to have Otule.  If I am a big man, I would want to go somewhere where I can practice against another big man and know that I can pass him up. 

[96warrior]

I'd heard similar things that MUMac did, regarding Murray's attitude, along the lines of Murray was lazy in practice, didn't want to work at it since he was expecting to go pro early, etc. The article ends with "frequently frustrated the coaching staff by losing focus"...makes me think twice about this.

This article also sounded a whole heck of a lot like what MU put out when Maymon left.......

If it was just a matter of LaSalle not being a good fit for him, and that led to his mentally checking out of the program - slash - attitude problems, then that would be less cause for concern. Maybe he'd be a better fit in Buzz's program and the rest would turn itself around from there. Here's hoping.

[Jay Bee]

I am not sure of the technicality of Otule's situation, but the point is that he has two more years left, correct? He will be at MU for 5 years?

He has two more years left of eligibility to compete. 

However, what becomes important here when people talk about him taking a redshirt is that he only has two years left on his 5-year clock.

If you think of the average kid starting school, they have 5 years in which to compete 4 years.

Right now, Otule has 2 years in which to compete 2 years.  Therefore, a redshirt year would effectively be a waste of a year of competition for Otule. 

[HoopsMalone]

He has two more years left of eligibility to compete. 

However, what becomes important here when people talk about him taking a redshirt is that he only has two years left on his 5-year clock.

If you think of the average kid starting school, they have 5 years in which to compete 4 years.

Right now, Otule has 2 years in which to compete 2 years.  Therefore, a redshirt year would effectively be a waste of a year of competition for Otule. 

I see.  Thanks.

I was not talking about Otule though.  Rather just Gardner.  I hope we are in the position to consider redshirting Gardner because we have a beast on the block like Murray.  Until that day, I am happy that we have Otule and Gardner for the coming years down low.

[GGGG]

Otule could have made a difference, but he really was not polished his first two years.  His redshirt ideally would have been his freshman year, but things did not work out that way after Mbakwe left.  He was uncoordinated, but now he has grown into his body. 

How do you know his emergence *this* year wouldn't have occured *last* year if he weren't injured?

[GGGG]

MU should redshirt DJO and Crowder next season so that Jones and EWill can get more PT. Then in the 2012-2013 season, all 4 of those players will have gotten a lot of experience and will be ready to contribute...but not right away. Jones and EWill would then redshirt in order to get them even more ready for the season after DJO and Crowder graduate! Then Wilson should fake an injury to see if he can get a hardship waiver and a 6th year of eligibility which would prevent him from taking PT from the fresh-off-a-redshirt EWill and would also give Wilson a second year of not playing competitive games which would obviously make him a better player! It's a perfect plan!

Seriously, what's going on here? MU fans have apparently forgotten what it's like to have depth. FYI - it's a good thing.

Bingo.  We keep wanting to sacrifice in the short-term because we think it is going to bring some super, duper extra benefit in the long-term.  But how do we know this???

[GGGG]

It wasn't a great thing--it was a terrible thing.

First, If Otule had played last year, the depth issue on the 2009-10 team would not have been as much of an issue, Hayward wouldn't have spent the year playing out of position, and we would have had a serviceable center in our lineup.  Its inconceivable that we were a better team without Otule.  With Otule, we would have been a better team in 2009-10--how much better?  Who knows.  Maybe we don't run out of gas against Washington, then easily top New Mexico and make the Sweet 16.

Plus, Otule would have come into THIS year with an additional full season of experience, making him more valuable to the team in 2010-11. Maybe a couple more wins in conference?  Maybe another NCAA win?

Not only was it not a 'great thing' that Otule redshirtted--it probably harmed us in both 2010 and 2011.

Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.

This is 100% correct and stated much better than I did.

[HoopsMalone]

How do you know his emergence *this* year wouldn't have occured *last* year if he weren't injured?

If you want to speculate, the opposite is just as relevant.  How do you know that last year he would have even gotten that much time?  Jimmy, Lazar, and DJO up front produced a very successful season and tons of matchup problems.  Besides that Georgetown game at MSG, we really never were hurt by a big man that badly.  And Otule would not have been ready for Greg Monroe.  Otule was practicing at the end of the year from what I remember and never played.  Junior is easier to replace because PGs are easier for MU to recruit, but he did play Junior last year.  He did not play Otule because Otule probably wasn't ready to go in his first two seasons.  He would not have played much if at all.  

He looked uncoordinated last year in his first few games.  This year, it looks like he grew into his body.  Clark, Liam, Mbakwe should have been playing and he would have been rushed out there before he was ready.  It's better this way.  We scrapped through a season with Lazar at the 5, and that was actually one of my favorite seasons to watch as an MU fan.

Developing 3-star bigs takes time, and they are apparently hard to find.  We should know that better than anyone.  Three years of Otule after investing two years to develop him is great for the program.  Maybe Buzz will turn a corner and start landing 4 star bigs.  But until he does, we just have to be patient with these guys.  

[HoopsMalone]

MU should redshirt DJO and Crowder next season so that Jones and EWill can get more PT. Then in the 2012-2013 season, all 4 of those players will have gotten a lot of experience and will be ready to contribute...but not right away. Jones and EWill would then redshirt in order to get them even more ready for the season after DJO and Crowder graduate! Then Wilson should fake an injury to see if he can get a hardship waiver and a 6th year of eligibility which would prevent him from taking PT from the fresh-off-a-redshirt EWill and would also give Wilson a second year of not playing competitive games which would obviously make him a better player! It's a perfect plan!

Seriously, what's going on here? MU fans have apparently forgotten what it's like to have depth. FYI - it's a good thing.

I know you are kidding, but it is not a good strategy to redshirt wing players or PGs.  They usually are ready to play when they get to college more than a big man who needs to grow into his body.  Plus, MU can replace wing players and PGs very easily. 

Bigs are a whole different story.  I hope we get to the point where we are recruiting the top big men.  However, there is some merit to sitting a big man and developing him if he is not going to contribute.

[NersEllenson]

Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.

Not sure that the 2003 Final Four, and new contract TC earned, upgraded the type of player we were able to land.  I hope you are right, and that Buzz can parlay a Sweet 16 run into landing kids in the Top 30..as he's had a pretty good track record of landing kids in the 50-100 area...without any real skins on the wall.

[GGGG]

If you want to speculate, the opposite is just as relevant.  How do you know that last year he would have even gotten that much time? 

Because he was the tallest guy on the roster not named Mbao and we had Lazar playing out of place at center.  It definately would have given Buzz more flexibility on how he could use his line-ups.

[NersEllenson]

With all those 2s and 4s, shouldn't someone redshirt?

So, wait .... Davante Gardner will be better than Robert Jackson, but has no chance of playing with Aaric Murray and Chris Otule on the roster? Hmmm.

I tend to agree with a lot of both of your guy's analysis..just differ in this case.  My desire to redshirt DG (if it came to the point where he isn't ready to be a 4 in 2012, and Murray transferred to MU), isn't to "hoarde" players at MU, etc.  Just think it would be idiotic for Gardner to burn his Junior year at MU likely sitting on the bench...- even though he can be every bit as good as Robert Jackson, and probably better -  he wouldn't command a majority of the minutes at the 5 if Murray is his competition.  In R-Jax case...he had ZERO competition for the 5 position.  Put a 4.5-5 star big on that roster with RJax with stats like Murray has put up thus far..and RJax is probably nothing more than a bit player on that team...and it would have been nice to have a guy with RJax's talents around the next season (which is my point about DG redshirting)

[HoopsMalone]

I really hope that Buzz starts recruiting bigs of Murray's caliber consistently.  But, we only have one scholarship left this year and one the next.  There are no bigs coming in yet.  We would be very fortunate to get Murray, but in all likelihood we will have to develop any big man we get.  Having Otule around for an extra year allows Buzz to do that.

Buzz probably could have played Otule last year in the tournament as he was back practicing.  However, he did not.  I think it was a smart move because big men do not grow on trees and Otule would not have helped that much.  Buzz   went 8 deep with Junior, Byucks, and Fulce off the bench last year, and that was the best team he could have put out there.  If Otule could have cracked that rotation and made an impact, I doubt that Buzz doesn't give Lazar the best possible chance to win in March as a senior.  I trust Buzz's choice.  We are going  in the right direction.

[MUMac]

Isn't that called a "medical redshirt?"    I am not sure about all the ins and outs of NCAA regulations but I think that you get one redshirt year (medical or otherwise) over the eligibility timeframe of a player.  In other words, I'm pretty sure CO can't redshirt anymore in his college career even if he is injured or wants to transfer.  

Officially?  No - it is a Medical Hardship Waiver.  Most people, however, refer to it as a medical redshirt. 

[brewcity77]

When was the last time anyone saw a contributing, healthy player take a redshirt in his junior year just to give him an extra year to develop?

**Listens to the crickets**

That only works in video games. Gardner is not taking a redshirt his junior year. I understand the mindset, but this is the real world, not the EA Sports world. It's wholly unrealistic to even think it might happen unless there is a need for
a medical hardship waiver.

[MUMac]

When was the last time anyone saw a contributing, healthy player take a redshirt in his junior year just to give him an extra year to develop?

**Listens to the crickets**

That only works in video games. Gardner is not taking a redshirt his junior year. I understand the mindset, but this is the real world, not the EA Sports world. It's wholly unrealistic to even think it might happen unless there is a need for
a medical hardship waiver.

Mike Flory at MU.  But that was for academics.

[HoopsMalone]

It's not ideal to red shirt junior year, but our lack of big men is also not ideal.  If Mbakwe or Liam were here, Gardner probably red shirts this year if we even had him.  Otule was also practicing with the team as as sophomore and Buzz decided to hold him out, probably because he was not going to play anyway.  There is a precedent there. 

Let's land a guy who is ready to go like Murray and worry about it then.  The scenario only happens if Murray is a 30 min big man and chooses to come here.  If Murray comes and goes to the NBA after his one year at MU and fourth year of college, I don't think it is all that irrational for Gardner to red shirt.  But yes, very rare and better to red shirt as a frosh if at all.