Aaric Murray

[GGGG]

I didn't say he should red shirt next to Murray this season.  I said after his freshman and soph year if Murray is really this good.  Otule as a senior and this kid Murray would get all the time at the 5.  It sounds like Murray is a 30 min player and give Otule the other 10 mins.  Develop Gardner another year and have 2 more years with him.  

They're not going to redshirt him then either...nor should they.  

Let me expand on this.  You don't want to tie up too many scholarships on people who are already here.  Transfers are one thing, but Ox is here and in the system already.  By redshirting him, he likely gets marginally better by experience, but it's not as though he is going to make great leaps and bounds.  That will likely happen more *this* upcoming season as he has a full six months to get in shape.

Furthermore, what player might you be foregoing by tying up Ox's scholarship for an additional year?

[marquette99]

Agreed.  While mu was not listed as one of the few he was interested in from the one source, I can't believe mu would be listed as one of his most aggressive suitors if he had simply told coaches he had no interest.

[MerrittsMustache]

They're not going to redshirt him then either...nor should they.  

Let me expand on this.  You don't want to tie up too many scholarships on people who are already here.  Transfers are one thing, but Ox is here and in the system already.  By redshirting him, he likely gets marginally better by experience, but it's not as though he is going to make great leaps and bounds.  That will likely happen more *this* upcoming season as he has a full six months to get in shape.

Furthermore, what player might you be foregoing by tying up Ox's scholarship for an additional year?

Exactly. Too many posters on this board think that red-shirting is always a good option. There's nothing wrong with having depth.

If Murray or Gardner could develop a consistent 12-15 foot shot, there's no reason not to think that they couldn't play along side each other or Otule for a few stretches each game. When they get winded, send in EWill and the other big for a completely different unit without losing much size or effectiveness (in theory). Defensively, MU could set up in a 3-2 zone with Otule and Murray underneath and Blue, Junior and Wilson gambling for steals on the perimeter knowing that they have 2 shot-blockers behind them to protect the rim.

[GGGG]

Exactly.  No one ever said that we should have redshirted Scott Merritt in 2002-03 so that we could have two years of him once Jackson graduated.

[HoopsMalone]

Exactly.  No one ever said that we should have redshirted Scott Merritt in 2002-03 so that we could have two years of him once Jackson graduated.

Redshirting Otule might end up being a great thing for our program.  Redshirting Barro and Burke would have made huge differences.  Barro on the Amigos' team when they were seniors changes things. 

For most of the year, Gardner could not keep up.  He was very bad many times, but had a few nice moves in the tournament.  I think he could use a year more than anyone.  You don't redshirt everyone, but Gardner is a prime example. 

Didn't Buzz say that if Otule and Fulce had been healthy all year he would redshirted Gardner?

[willie warrior]

Redshirting Otule might end up being a great thing for our program.  Redshirting Barro and Burke would have made huge differences.  Barro on the Amigos' team when they were seniors changes things. 

For most of the year, Gardner could not keep up.  He was very bad many times, but had a few nice moves in the tournament.  I think he could use a year more than anyone.  You don't redshirt everyone, but Gardner is a prime example. 

Didn't Buzz say that if Otule and Fulce had been healthy all year he would redshirted Gardner?

Do the rules allow to redhirt him if he already has had a medical redshirt?

[BCHoopster]

Redshirting Otule is ridiculous.  I do not believe there is that big an upside for him.
HIs handicap will always be a problem, he will improve slightly the next 2 years but
he is not the real answer in the middle.  Every time he plays against somebody his
own size he has trouble.  Need to recruit a big in the next few years.  Gardner really
on the defensive side has a long way to go.  For the program, he would be the one
to redshirt as he has a much bigger upside.  To do that, you need to recruit another
big but that will probably not happen.  Need a power forward to take over for Crowder
after next year, that is why a transfer like Wilson would be great.

[NersEllenson]

Redshirting Otule is ridiculous.  I do not believe there is that big an upside for him.
HIs handicap will always be a problem, he will improve slightly the next 2 years but
he is not the real answer in the middle.  Every time he plays against somebody his
own size he has trouble.  Need to recruit a big in the next few years.  Gardner really
on the defensive side has a long way to go.  For the program, he would be the one
to redshirt as he has a much bigger upside.  To do that, you need to recruit another
big but that will probably not happen.  Need a power forward to take over for Crowder
after next year, that is why a transfer like Wilson would be great.

No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing.  I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program. 

[Hards Alumni]

No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing.  I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program. 

Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner?  He made huge strides during the season.  Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face.  If it was me, I'd be out the door.

[MerrittsMustache]

No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing.  I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program. 

Redshirting your best interior offensive player, especially in what would be his junior season, would be impossibly stupid.

[leever]

Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner?  He made huge strides during the season.  Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face.  If it was me, I'd be out the door.

+1
DG would have to accept the redshirt - and I doubt he would, or should.  If he continues to improve next year, he might leave anyway if his minutes were severely reduced.  I could easily see him transferring if the options were redshirt or virtually no playing time.

[Jay Bee]

Do the rules allow to redhirt him if he already has had a medical redshirt?

There is no such thing as a medical redshirt.

The question would be whether or not he could get an additional, or sixth year, on his 'clock' (you have 5 years to exhaust your 4 years of competition)...

In a situation where the medical hardship waiver was granted for his 'first sophomore' year such as this case... it would be unlikely that he'd receive an additional year of eligibility because a school chose to redshirt him.  And you wouldn't have a final answer until the distant future

[GGGG]

No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing.  I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program.  

He didn't redshirt last year.  He was injured last year.

And I don't think it was good for our program at all that he missed last year.  How valuable could he have been on what was arguably a better team?  We had Lazar playing the center position most of the year because Otule was injured.  We could have been a hell of a lot better with a frontline of Lazar, JFB and CO.  Instead, we had to deal with that three guard rotation all year long.

It's almost like people *want* people around for a fifth year because they feel that they will be more valuable three years from now, than what they can do *right now.*  How do we know this?  

[HoopsMalone]

He didn't redshirt last year.  He was injured last year.

And I don't think it was good for our program at all that he missed last year.  How valuable could he have been on what was arguably a better team?  We had Lazar playing the center position most of the year because Otule was injured.  We could have been a hell of a lot better with a frontline of Lazar, JFB and CO.  Instead, we had to deal with that three guard rotation all year long.

It's almost like people *want* people around for a fifth year because they feel that they will be more valuable three years from now, than what they can do *right now.*  How do we know this?  

Otule did redshirt last year and that is why he has 2 more years left.  It is too bad that we did not have a big man or a bench for that matter last year.  It was an amazing coaching job to do as well as we did.  He really was not any good either his first two years.  Now, he is at least competent to have out there. 

Maybe people were so shocked to have a big guy who could actually make a move last year for the first time in years.  Gardner was all right, but not a world beater.  He is still a project.  Everyone is talking about the talent the kid has, so why not let his body catch up to it?  He is not like Merritt who was starting next to Jackson and ready to contribute. 

If Gardner's feet get quick enough that he could play the 4 next to Murray if he came, then we will be a very special program.  However, I do not see it happening.  It will very likely be up to Erik Williams and Jamil Wilson to defend the 4 spot in 2 years.  Those guys will thrive in the same way Lazar did.

Big men do not grow on trees.  We should know that by now.  If we can develop Gardner another year, it would be worth it.  Buzz would have to convince him it is for the best. 

[downtown85]

He didn't redshirt last year.  He was injured last year.

Isn't that called a "medical redshirt?"   I am not sure about all the ins and outs of NCAA regulations but I think that you get one redshirt year (medical or otherwise) over the eligibility timeframe of a player.  In other words, I'm pretty sure CO can't redshirt anymore in his college career even if he is injured or wants to transfer.  

[GGGG]

Otule did redshirt last year and that is why he has 2 more years left.  It is too bad that we did not have a big man or a bench for that matter last year.  It was an amazing coaching job to do as well as we did.  He really was not any good either his first two years.  Now, he is at least competent to have out there.  

How do we know he wouldn't have been good last year?  He played three games before he was injured.  He could have meant a great deal to that team.

So what people are suggesting is that we redshirt Ox, not next year, but in 2012-13 to save him for the 2014-15 season?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

[GGGG]

Isn't that called a "medical redshirt?"   I am not sure about all the ins and outs of NCAA regulations but I think that you get one redshirt year (medical or otherwise) over the eligibility timeframe of a player.  In other words, I'm pretty sure CO can't redshirt anymore in his college career even if he is injured or wants to transfer. 

Some players have been granted additional years of eligibility if they have used their regular redshirt, then miss an entire year due to injury.

[NersEllenson]

Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner?  He made huge strides during the season.  Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face.  If it was me, I'd be out the door.

We aren't talking about next year..we are talking about the hypothetical of IF MU lands Aaric Murray...Murray would have to sit out the 2011-2012 season...so DG plays NEXT year...see where he is at.  But in 2012-2013 you would have Otule, Murray, and Gardner (with Otule being a senior, Murray a Junior, Gardner a Junior)...so highly unlikely there are enought minutes for all 3 to play in 2012-2013.  Ask DG to redshirt..and now he is a class behind Murray.

It by no means is idiotic.  And of course we all can see Devante's potential and made great strides this season...I've said many times since watching him in MU Madness that he very likely will be better than Robert Jackson was at MU -(which at the time was ridiculed by many), as has been my Buzz mancrush...Hmmm.

[NersEllenson]

Some players have been granted additional years of eligibility if they have used their regular redshirt, then miss an entire year due to injury.

Do we really care about the technicality of if Otule sitting out was a "redshirt" or being granted an additional year of eligibility?  The end result is the same....right?

[GGGG]

Do we really care about the technicality of if Otule sitting out was a "redshirt" or being granted an additional year of eligibility?  The end result is the same....right?

Sure!  And when someone is academically suspended for a year, we can call it an "academic redshirt."  And when someone goes to jail for the incident in Humphrey Hall, we can call it a "sexual redshirt."

The possibilities are endless!!!

(Two things that have the same results are not always the same thing.)

[Jay Bee]

Cripes.  Otule didn't flippin redshirt.  

If you did redshirt him in 2011-12 or 2012-13 in all likelihood he wouldn't receive an additional year on his clock (it's not an issue of an additional year of eligibility - he's got 2 years left of eligibility because of the medical hardship waiver... but he's only got 2 years left on his 5-year clock).  "Hi, please give us another year on his clock because we want to redshirt him" probably isn't going to work real well.  Now, if he had another major injury and was unable to play for a year, then he could probably get another year on the clock.. but, an additional year being granted due to the school's choice isn't going to happen because sitting him out is not out of the kid's or school's control.  It would be their decision.

Otule ain't redshirting.  Hasn't ever done it and won't ever do it.  

You cats are mixing up separate things.  They are each very different:
Redshirt = didn't play
Hardship waiver = doesn't count a year of competition even though the student-athlete played during the year
Five-Year Rule waiver = gets more than 5 years once the clock starts due to circumstances beyond the student-athlete and institution's control.

[MerrittsMustache]

How do we know he wouldn't have been good last year?  He played three games before he was injured.  He could have meant a great deal to that team.

So what people are suggesting is that we redshirt Ox, not next year, but in 2012-13 to save him for the 2014-15 season?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

MU should redshirt DJO and Crowder next season so that Jones and EWill can get more PT. Then in the 2012-2013 season, all 4 of those players will have gotten a lot of experience and will be ready to contribute...but not right away. Jones and EWill would then redshirt in order to get them even more ready for the season after DJO and Crowder graduate! Then Wilson should fake an injury to see if he can get a hardship waiver and a 6th year of eligibility which would prevent him from taking PT from the fresh-off-a-redshirt EWill and would also give Wilson a second year of not playing competitive games which would obviously make him a better player! It's a perfect plan!

Seriously, what's going on here? MU fans have apparently forgotten what it's like to have depth. FYI - it's a good thing.

[HoopsMalone]

How do we know he wouldn't have been good last year?  He played three games before he was injured.  He could have meant a great deal to that team.

So what people are suggesting is that we redshirt Ox, not next year, but in 2012-13 to save him for the 2014-15 season?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

Otule could have made a difference, but he really was not polished his first two years.  His redshirt ideally would have been his freshman year, but things did not work out that way after Mbakwe left.  He was uncoordinated, but now he has grown into his body.  

And Otule is not the one who should have been out there next to Lazar in 2009-10.  It should have been Burke in my opinion.  The program would have been better off redshirting Barro his freshman season as well.  He should have been out there with the Amigos against Missouri.  

With Marcus Jackson, Grimm, Lott, and Kinsella already there, playing Barro and Burke as freshman was stupid in hindsight.  Neither were that good their freshman year, and only Barro was competent as a soph.  The program is better if they had developed another year.

It assumes that Murray is a beast who is going to play 30 mins/game.  Why sit Gardner for an entire year if he has all this talent that people keep talking about?  I think Gardner could be a double figures scorer with enough touches.  However, he is very unpolished now and Buzz cannot justify playing him the minutes to get that due to his conditioning and defense.  

Until we start getting players of Murray's caliber consistently, I say develop those bigs.  It is odd to do it as a junior.  But, this is the last consequence of the coaching change.  

[Pakuni]

We aren't talking about next year..we are talking about the hypothetical of IF MU lands Aaric Murray...Murray would have to sit out the 2011-2012 season...so DG plays NEXT year...see where he is at.  But in 2012-2013 you would have Otule, Murray, and Gardner (with Otule being a senior, Murray a Junior, Gardner a Junior)...so highly unlikely there are enought minutes for all 3 to play in 2012-2013.  Ask DG to redshirt..and now he is a class behind Murray.

It by no means is idiotic.  And of course we all can see Devante's potential and made great strides this season...I've said many times since watching him in MU Madness that he very likely will be better than Robert Jackson was at MU -(which at the time was ridiculed by many), as has been my Buzz mancrush...Hmmm.

Why on earth would Davante Gardner want to play two seasons and then sit out a year? Especially if he's going to be better than Robert Jackson (who was better than Aaric Murray)? What sense does it make for Gardner or MU to have the team's best post player on the bench in street clothes?

And under this proposed scheme, what if Otule goes down midseason - not exactly an unlikely proposition given his history - after you've already redshirted Gardner? Do you lift the redshirt in January, wasting a half a season for no good purpose? Try to get by the rest of the season with one post player (who fouled out six times this season and was in foul trouble several other times)?

It would make little (read: no) sense to do this.

[willie warrior]

Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner?  He made huge strides during the season.  Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face.  If it was me, I'd be out the door.

I agree Hards. If that happened, I would take my redshirt to another school. Gardner is capable for starting at a number of schools, and there would be a bundle of those schools ready to take him--probably a number far closer to home. Now if he shows up next fall having ballooned up, that would be something different. I do not expect that to happen.