Packers vs. Bears Insanity

[DegenerateDish]

Now that is one heck of a strawman argument...Who said they were not factors? Who's ignoring their presence? If you want to conclude that the noise and Peppers were bigger factors than they were, go for it.

Explain something to me though...If Julius Peppers is in such a class by himself relative to causing penalties, and coupled with the Soldier Field crowd noise creates such problems for opponents,  wouldn't it be safe to conclude that the Bears would be near the top of the league in opponents penalties? Even with that 18 penalty aberration against Green Bay, the Bears rank 20th in the league in opponents penalties per game at 5.5, with very little change at home at 5.8 (18th), and the exact same 5.5 average as last season when Julius Peppers was a Panther. In fact if you take out even half of those penalties against the Packers in that game, their average would drop them down to about 30th in the league.

Riddle me this, was it just pure fate that caused the Packers offensive line to be that horrible that evening? I'm pointing out one specific night. If the Pack (as you pointed out) wasn't so bad in 6 other road games, what caused them to be so bad that night? I'm just curious why that is being ignored by you. You provide these other penalty numbers, and I have no idea why other teams didn't committ penalties at an alarmingly high rate as the Packers did that night. You're the Packer fan here, let me know, thanks.

[DegenerateDish]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the Bears, NFL, and Fox worked through the Cornelison/Dewyze controversy. Cornelison is signing the anthem, and Dewyze is performing at halftime. Bears asked Fox/NFL if that arrangement would work, and all signed off on the idea.

[DJO's Pump Fake]

So who is this Cornelison guy anyway? A folk hero? Thanks in advance.

[DegenerateDish]

So who is this Cornelison guy anyway? A folk hero? Thanks in advance.

I'm going to assume you're not a Blackhawk fan, or you didn't watch the opening of Seahawks/Bears on Sunday. Darren Rovell tweeted that Cornelision's anthem before Seahawks/Bears was the best national anthem performance ever.

[NavinRJohnson]

Riddle me this, was it just pure fate that caused the Packers offensive line to be that horrible that evening? I'm pointing out one specific night. If the Pack (as you pointed out) wasn't so bad in 6 other road games, what caused them to be so bad that night? I'm just curious why that is being ignored by you. You provide these other penalty numbers, and I have no idea why other teams didn't committ penalties at an alarmingly high rate as the Packers did that night. You're the Packer fan here, let me know, thanks.

This may sound stupid, but, one of those days. My evidence for that is the fact that it wasn't just the offense line that had problems. I'm not ignoring how bad the O-line was. You however seem to only want to focus on the night they had, and seem to be ignoring how bad they were everywhere else as well in terms of mistakes and penalties, along with all the other data. They had 10 offensive penalties, and 8 non-offensive penalties. Their season average, including that incredibly bad day, is 3rd lowest in the league at 4.8 game. They had nearly double that on each side of the ball in week 3. If you want to read some sort of meaning into that, have at it, but to do so, you really have to ignore all of the other numbers...the very low number of Packer penalties in other road games, the fact that the Packers are one of the least penalized teams in the league, and the fact that Bears rank near the bottom in opponents' penalties. Your theory requires one to believe that Julius Peppers and the Soldier Field crowd have exponentially more impact on the Packers than on other teams, because the overall numbers don't suggest anything other than a very bad night.

And oh btw, Clifton had to be removed from the game the week prior because of a bad knee, did not really practice leading up to the Bear game, and was quite ineffective early in the year due to injury (Been extremely good the second half of the season however). Mark Tauscher's career is obviously over, and he probably should not have come back, as he was bad all year in the games he played, including the Bear game.

Again, not saying guys like Peppers and home field don't have an impact, because they can/do, but attempting to read any real meaning into that 18 penalty affair and try to project it onto this game doesn't make a lot of sense.

[MerrittsMustache]

First, I say "we" when talking about the Packers and MU basketball. Get over it.

Second, Committing 18 penalties is considered the Packers beating themselves because over the rest of the season they proved to be very good at not committing penalties, so this was an anomaly. And, sorry Bears fan, Peppers did not cause all 18.

Also, the Bears did not beat themselves at Lambeau due to Cutlers "bad passes", because Cutler is very prone to make many terrible throws in every game, that is just the way he plays.

Just because you say it, that doesn't mean you don't sound like a fool when doing so.

If the Packers had a bunch of delay of game penalties or other "unforced errors," I'd give you the classic loser-speak argument that the Packers beat themselves. Unfortunately for you, that wasn't the case.

[MerrittsMustache]

Missing the stat-line on steroid injections... Matthews has that won by a mile.  He's extremely talented and would love him on the Bears, but is it just me or does Clay's growth seem like the most blatant case of roid blow-up since Sammy Sosa?

IIRC his boy Cushing got nailed with a PED suspension over the off-season last year. Wouldn't surprise me to have the same happen to CM.

+1,000,000

Meathead Packer fans are the only people who don't believe Matthews is a roid-shooter. The logical ones will be the first to tell you that Clay just ain't natural.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm going to assume you're not a Blackhawk fan, or you didn't watch the opening of Seahawks/Bears on Sunday. Darren Rovell tweeted that Cornelision's anthem before Seahawks/Bears was the best national anthem performance ever.

Good grief! Who cares? I certainly hope they are doing this for the fans (which I think is great), and not because they think it is going to help them win the game. Did the surprise/excitement/emotion caused by the whole thing impact the Seahawks? You bet it did! Is it going to affect a team like the Packers? No. At the end of the day, the Seahawks were a terrible football team, and all that anthem did was sink them early, but they never had a chance to begin with.  The Packers are a talented football team, and they could bring out a reanimated Francis Scott Key to sing the anthem and it is not going to impact what happens on the field this Sunday.

(Not trying to be a wise guy, but who is Darren Rovell and why should I care what he thinks?)

[DegenerateDish]

Fair enough, I understand your points (really I do). My point was just the opposite, if they were so good at not committing penalties in other games, I (as a Bears fan) was curious what was it about that Monday night that they were so poor. It was an outlier performance, and would theorize that either the environment they were in or the particular opponent that evening were the cause, as false starts are more mental than physical.

Fact is Peppers has to play at a dominant level for the Bears to have a chance Sunday. If the Packers don't need to double team or chip to his side, and can survive, huge advantage Green Bay. I don't believe the Packers will have that many penalities again, and your numbers support that. All I ever was trying to say is that in previewing this game, looking back at the previous time these two teams played in this venue, the amount of penalities were a huge factor in that outcome. That's all we have to analyze at this point.

Let's just fast forward to Sunday at 2pm, all this talk will drive us nuts on both sides at this rate.

[Blackhat]

Of course Matthews in on a PED.

But guess what... the whole damn NFL is on PED's.  

Whoopty Doo.

You think these guys running around with 220lbs of muscle on their frame running 4.5 40's are natural????  

Only a meathead would think that.

[DegenerateDish]

Good grief! Who cares? I certainly hope they are doing this for the fans (which I think is great), and not because they think it is going to help them win the game. Did the surprise/excitement/emotion caused by the whole thing impact the Seahawks? You bet it did! Is it going to affect a team like the Packers? No. At the end of the day, the Seahawks were a terrible football team, and all that anthem did was sink them early, but they never had a chance to begin with.  The Packers are a talented football team, and they could bring out a reanimated Francis Scott Key to sing the anthem and it is not going to impact what happens on the field this Sunday.

(Not trying to be a wise guy, but who is Darren Rovell and why should I care what he thinks?)

Most Packer fans probably don't care, I understand that. It's been a semi-big story in Chicago since yesterday, that's why I posted it. Heck, it's one of the main headlines on the Chicago Tribune website right now.

Darren Rovell is a former ESPN sports business reporter, now the sports business reporter for CNBC. You don't have to care what he thinks, I was just trying to respond to the other post and provide some background.

He's a great anthem singer, if people care about that, great. If people don't, great.

[NavinRJohnson]

Meathead Packer fans are the only people who don't believe Matthews is a roid-shooter.

He probably is, along with about 1000 other NFL players. I know this is a position I cannot reconcile, but for some reason it doesn't bother me in football the way it does in baseball. I guess I just expect it as it has been going on for so long. If Matthews used PEDs he is obviously not the only one on his own team, let alone the NFL. I would suggest that those who choose to criticize him for it are equally meatballish, as anyone with a brain would be willing and able to admit that there are just as many Bears/Vikings/Eagles/Steelers...using PEDs as there are Packers. Maybe I'm a dope, but I don't give a rip about any of them.

[NavinRJohnson]

That's all we have to analyze at this point.

And I'll say what I said earlier. Don't bother. You can ween about as much useful information from that game as you can from the Bears' first game against Seattle. Its meaningless. It was over 3 months ago, and both teams are completely different today than they were back then. Now, the Packers may come out an commit 18 penalties again, but I would argue that there would be no meaningful correlation between the two games from a match up standpoint, other than a lack of focus and concentration and or injuries and guys playing out of position. 

[Josey Wales]

Just because you say it, that doesn't mean you don't sound like a fool when doing so.

It's not like I walk around all day like some jackass saying "we this, we that" about the Packers. There is nothing wrong the die-hard fans occasionally using the word "we" about their favorite team. Seriously, I use the word once amid a long post and you really feel the need to bring it up and call me a fool? Really? A lot of people say "We won the superbowl; or, We are going to the superbowl this year!" and things like that. You must be pretty uptight to take offense to it. Why is it wrong to say "we" or "our"? It just shows you are identifying with a team that you care about. I don't even know why someone would argue such a stupid little point. For someone to have nothing better to say should just get a life. Maybe you never played sports thus don't grasp the team concept, or maybe you don't care a lot for your team. Who cares, why does it matter? I love MY packers!

Ok, it's one thing to hear some guy in a bar screaming like he thinks he wears a jersey. That may be a little foolish. However, to criticize me for using the word in an online forum to identify which team I root for is asinine.

[shiloh26]

Crowd noise (to whatever extent you want it to be, you seem to be taking issue with it, so I'll leave it at your call) + Julius Peppers (Defensive Player of the Year candidate, better than any of the people you mentioned) = tougher to make line calls, and leads to things like back to back "False start, #65 offense" (I realize Tauscher is on IR now).

Packer offensive penalties that day:

PENALTY on GB-76-C.Clifton, False Start
PENALTY on GB-73-D.Colledge, Offensive Holding
PENALTY on GB-76-C.Clifton, Illegal Formation
PENALTY on GB-71-J.Sitton, Offensive Holding
PENALTY on GB-65-M.Tauscher, Offensive Holding
PENALTY on GB-65-M.Tauscher, False Start
PENALTY on GB-65-M.Tauscher, False Start
PENALTY on GB-12-A.Rodgers, Delay of Game
PENALTY on GB-76-C.Clifton, False Start

I didn't include Rodgers intentional grounding penalty, FWIW.

Four of the five offensive lineman that day had penalties. If it was a "historically bad performance" or "anomaly", that is a hell of a bad performance by one group, and a huge coincidence that nothing factored into it. By that reasoning, they could have played a Sisters of the Poor that day and had the exact same performance. According to the logic I'm hearing, the presence and play of Peppers and any crowd noise (or lack there of apparently) were not contributors to a horrendous offensive line performance that night.

Again, all I'm saying is not to be naive, and discount crowd noise and the presence of Peppers this Sunday. Not saying either of those factors are a guarantee of a Bears victory, but no need to be football ignorant and ignore either variable.

Not sure if this was brought up, but the two false starts on Tauscher were as *WE* were backed up on *OUR* one yardline. He was getting his ass kicked by Peppers, for sure, (it was sad to watch) but I think he also figured there wasn't much to lose in trying to get those old knees around a bit sooner by trying to jump the snap. 

The Bears have a very, very good D-Line, especially if the corpse of Tommie Harris decides to be good at football again, and it looks to have decided just that.  However, I very, very much doubt that there will be that many penalties on the OLine again for a couple reasons. 

1. The Packers have developed a silent count that worked very well in the Atlanta game, a method they did not have in week six. 

2. Aaron Rodgers has looked like Houdini getting away from sacks lately, which is probably mostly luck, but I think it also gives his boys up front confidence that they don't have to risk a holding penalty to save him from getting destroyed.

3. This one is pure conjecture: They're playing with just a tad more confidence than in week 6.  My critique of Mike McCarthy teams has really only been that, even in wins, it always felt like pulling teeth... *WE* were barely hanging on, especially on the OLine. It doesn't feel that way anymore, and even though that Bears line may be the best its been all season, I don't think the OLine are afraid of that like they got to be in week 6.

We shall see. Who knows, Bulaga and Colledge have both had some frustrating runs of penalties at various points all year, and Bulaga especially has never been in a spot like this.  Then again, neither has J'Marcus Webb, as long as the topic is OLine troubles. 

[wadesworld]

+1,000,000

Meathead Packer fans are the only people who don't believe Matthews is a roid-shooter. The logical ones will be the first to tell you that Clay just ain't natural.

You're absolutely right, a guy with a father who played in the NFL, a Hall of Fame NFL player as an uncle, and a brother who will soon be in the NFL could NEVER be a good football player without steroids.  Absolutely not.

What an absolute joke.  Find me a picture, just ONE, where Clay Matthews is NOT jacked.  I looked up "Clay Matthews at USC" and looked through Google's entire images page and there is not a single one out there.

Now bare in mind that his diet for 4 years of his life was raw eggs and chicken.  And the fact that he played football at USC, meaning he was probably on SOME sort of weight program (crazy idea, I know).  And is now a professional athlete and PROBABLY lifts some weights here and there for his job.

So you're telling me that any strong man in the world who runs fast is on steroids?  OK.  Makes sense.  Derrick Rose must be shooting up every day.  Adrian Peterson?  Roids for sure.  Andre Johnson?  Absolutely.  Chris Johnson?  Maurice Jones Drew?  Michael Turner?  Tim Tebow?  Vince Young?  Blake Griffin?  Dwyane Wade?  Lebron James?  The list goes on and on.

But no, nobody in the NFL is on steroids BESIDES the guy who has football running through his veins and has since he was born.

I don't know whether Clay is on roids or not, but neither do you, so don't pretend you do.  He probably isn't going to be a skinny unathletic guy with the genes that he has...

[Stringer Bellenson]

I'm quick to call out Matthews for being on roids or HGH, but for the most part, I kid.  At the end of the day, you can't deny the guy's talent or the way he plays.  In an effort to be somewhat objective, I suppose I'd like the guy if he were on the Bears; plus, he's entertaining to watch to some degree considering I'm usually rooting for his team to lose.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for two reasons.  The first, as was previously mentioned, the guy has pretty good bloodlines.  That can lead one to reasonably believe the guy was just a late bloomer (he weighed about 165 coming out of HS).

The second reason I give him a pass, which has more sway in my book, are those commercials he does with those sick kids and people with the little known disease, Duchenne (sp?) I believe.  What can I say?  I'm a softy.  None the less, it seems like a noble cause and makes him a little harder not to like.

It's nice to see someone up there's got a little class when it comes to treating the sick with a little dignity and respect.  I'll take Matthews with his heart of gold and ever-growing skull (see: Sosa, Bonds, Sly Stalone, Canseco) over that cold-hearted s.o.b. Rodgers, casting off cancer patients like lepers, any day of the week. 

[Stringer Bellenson]

Find me a picture, just ONE, where Clay Matthews is NOT jacked.  I looked up "Clay Matthews at USC" and looked through Google's entire images page and there is not a single one out there.

Now bare in mind that his diet for 4 years of his life was raw eggs and chicken.  And the fact that he played football at USC, meaning he was probably on SOME sort of weight program (crazy idea, I know).  And is now a professional athlete and PROBABLY lifts some weights here and there for his job.

Not to nit-pick, but I think it can be argued here that he's not exactly jacked in this picture; but like I said, I give him the benefit of the doubt until he's proven guilty.  I won't fault the guy for having played for a cheating coach at a cheating program, and having a cheating roommate.

[Hards Alumni]

Not to nit-pick, but I think it can be argued here that he's not exactly jacked in this picture; but like I said, I give him the benefit of the doubt until he's proven guilty.  I won't fault the guy for having played for a cheating coach at a cheating program, and having a cheating roommate.

I'll go out on a limb and assume this picture was from high school.

I can tell you, that the way I looked when I graduated from high school pales in comparison to the way I looked when I graduated from Marquette.

I'll also go out on another limb and say that I'm not the only one.

[TallTitan34]

So who is this Cornelison guy anyway? A folk hero? Thanks in advance.

At Chicago Blackhawks games the crowd goes wild, yelling and screaming, during the national anthem while Cornelison sings.  This carried over to Soldier Field last weekend when he sang and undoubtedly will be seen again this Sunday.

When he sings sure to check out his ring as he raises his hand for, "and our flag was still THERE!".

[M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS]

At Chicago Blackhawks games the crowd goes wild, yelling and screaming, during the national anthem while Cornelison sings.  This carried over to Soldier Field last weekend when he sang and undoubtedly will be seen again this Sunday.

When he sings sure to check out his ring as he raises his hand for, "and our flag was still THERE!".

Absoluetly nothing to do with the bears/packers.  But in all honesty, that guys rendition of the national anthem sucked big time.  On a side note, the bears fans screaming and cheering during the beginning, middle and end of the anthem was bad also.

[MerrittsMustache]

It's not like I walk around all day like some jackass saying "we this, we that" about the Packers. There is nothing wrong the die-hard fans occasionally using the word "we" about their favorite team. Seriously, I use the word once amid a long post and you really feel the need to bring it up and call me a fool? Really? A lot of people say "We won the superbowl; or, We are going to the superbowl this year!" and things like that. You must be pretty uptight to take offense to it. Why is it wrong to say "we" or "our"? It just shows you are identifying with a team that you care about. I don't even know why someone would argue such a stupid little point. For someone to have nothing better to say should just get a life. Maybe you never played sports thus don't grasp the team concept, or maybe you don't care a lot for your team. Who cares, why does it matter? I love MY packers!

Ok, it's one thing to hear some guy in a bar screaming like he thinks he wears a jersey. That may be a little foolish. However, to criticize me for using the word in an online forum to identify which team I root for is asinine.

Can we at least agree that you now look like a fool for this ranting post?

[hairy worthen]

I'm going to assume you're not a Blackhawk fan, or you didn't watch the opening of Seahawks/Bears on Sunday. Darren Rovell tweeted that Cornelision's anthem before Seahawks/Bears was the best national anthem performance ever.

Well at least you have that going for you

[Josey Wales]

Can we at least agree that you now look like a fool for this ranting post?

Typical, just keep up personally attacks instead of using a logical argument. Congrats, you're the first person I've used the "ignore" button on.

[MerrittsMustache]

You're absolutely right, a guy with a father who played in the NFL, a Hall of Fame NFL player as an uncle, and a brother who will soon be in the NFL could NEVER be a good football player without steroids.  Absolutely not.

What an absolute joke.  Find me a picture, just ONE, where Clay Matthews is NOT jacked.  I looked up "Clay Matthews at USC" and looked through Google's entire images page and there is not a single one out there.

Now bare in mind that his diet for 4 years of his life was raw eggs and chicken.  And the fact that he played football at USC, meaning he was probably on SOME sort of weight program (crazy idea, I know).  And is now a professional athlete and PROBABLY lifts some weights here and there for his job.

So you're telling me that any strong man in the world who runs fast is on steroids?  OK.  Makes sense.  Derrick Rose must be shooting up every day.  Adrian Peterson?  Roids for sure.  Andre Johnson?  Absolutely.  Chris Johnson?  Maurice Jones Drew?  Michael Turner?  Tim Tebow?  Vince Young?  Blake Griffin?  Dwyane Wade?  Lebron James?  The list goes on and on.

But no, nobody in the NFL is on steroids BESIDES the guy who has football running through his veins and has since he was born.

I don't know whether Clay is on roids or not, but neither do you, so don't pretend you do.  He probably isn't going to be a skinny unathletic guy with the genes that he has...

Lighten up, Francis. Also, none of those guys who you mentioned were undersized back-ups in HS who suddenly gained 80+ pounds of muscle.