NFC North Pissing Match

[Jay Bee]

So what happened last year is entirely indicative of what will happen this year? Got it. 

Are you just really young, or did you go to UW-Waukesha?  Some guy said that if GB’s offense scores a lot of points, 10+ win will happen.  It didn’t happen last year – that doesn’t mean that fact is ‘entirely indicative of what will happen this year’, it means his comment was off base – if x happens, then y will happen he claimed.  But, x has happened, but y wasn’t even close.  Get it? 

Let me spell this out for you.  Tarvaris Jackson (yes, I'm anal about spelling, so I won't give you the opportunity to be a total b*tch about it) was ridiculously efficient over the last five games last year. 
There is a chance that he was actually coming to his own.  Instead of letting him grow in the offense, your head coach (apparently motivated by his lack of testicles) let an almost-40 year old QB jerk him and the rest of your locker room around, and walk right into a starting job without doing anything to earn it except lead the NFL in turnovers last year.

You’re anal about a lot of things, I’m sure.  Your definition of ‘ridiculously efficient’ is far different from mine.  He had two good games in which I think he completed a total of 20 passes.  The last three were nothing to write home about.  When a game counted most, he was 15/35 for 163 yard, no TDs and a pick.  Not to mention a fumble and the guy looked lost and out of place.  Maybe you meant ‘ridiculously efficient’ in terms of helping Philly win.  BTW, I find it flat out goofy that you talk up the end of T-Jack’s season, yet in the same message talk about how we got murdered in the playoffs.
    Favre has earned the starting job – I’ve seen the guy play well in playoff games.  I still don’t get why so many folks outside of Minnesota seem to think Tarvaris is the answer.  I don’t recall you getting all huffy and puffy when we brought in Sage Rosenfels earlier this year.

It smacks of hypocritical if you'll acknowledge that the Packers scored all those points and lost 10 games, but won't acknowledge that your current starting QB pulled an epic collapse over the final five games last year, almost single handedly eliminating a contender from the playoffs.

First off, I was pointing out the Packers scoring ‘prowess’ because of the off base comment someone else made.  I wasn’t trying to provide a review of the NJ Jets 2008 season (which, by the way, they greatly improved from a season ago – by EPIC proportions and having surgery in the offseason indicates there really was an injury [in all candor, the cracked rib crap is annoying at best]).

Now, consider for a moment that the Packers scored ALL those points last year, return an improving second year starter at QB...

It’s a cute little dream, but consider the Consensus Vikings – everyone knows their weakest spot was QB.  They brought in a hall of famer and a strong #2 (Sage).  Add in an electrifying rookie in Harvin and off we go… repeat NFC North Champions.  Ryan Grant?  If being overrated were a swimming pool, little boys would pee inside him.

Specifically, how a thirty nine year old quarterback with a surgically repaired biceps and a torn rotator cuff who did no offseason work with your team is a better option than a young, growing quarterback.  The only direction Favre can go is south.

Favre can go down south more than a hooker this season and is still a better option than Tarvaris.  He’s a proven veteran that led a crappy team to a wonderful start last year before he got hurt.  That injury has been addressed and his teammates this year are about 9x’s better than his teammates last year (and 400x’s better than his teammates the 16 years before that).  I really don’t get your fascination with T-Jack.  But then again, it’s not as strange as your fascination with benwa balls.

[Hards Alumni]

really, Jay, really?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

1. That was 2 years ago.
True, but it's JUST 2 years ago. You ask for an example that wasn't with Holmgren in 1995. I just gave you one.

2. He was healthy.
Fair.

3. His off season efforts prior to that season are well documented.
Also fair.

4. He had a stable of receivers that would make most teams in the league jealous.
At the start of the year, nobody was that jealous. It's not like they were the Colts receivers. But, true, they are a good bunch.

5. He had the highest YPA of his career that season...that was clearly not all YAC.
Agree, it wasn't all YAC. But, you are a fan, you watched that season. Clearly it was a much more controlled passing game than previous years. 5 wide and short passes. There was a lot of that.

6. You've already pointed out how it ended up. Despite all the good, the season ended on another terrible, all too typical decision.
True, but he was great that year. He made a lot of great plays an everybody was loving him. I'll take the 2007 Brett Favre even with the pass in the championship game. He was great that year and they never would have made it that far without him.

[MU B2002]

I'll take the 2009 vikes over the 2005 pack any day of the week. That was the comparison being made.

Yes, I believe Sydney Rice, Berrian, Harvin and Shancoe will be enough.

Shiancoe.


Sorry, I had to... 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Shiancoe.


Sorry, I had to... 

Ha. Yea, Jay Bee would have busted me for that.

[LON]

I'll take the 2009 vikes over the 2005 pack any day of the week. That was the comparison being made.

Yes, I believe Sydney Rice, Berrian, Harvin and Shancoe will be enough.

favre won't throw to Shiancoe because he's jealous of the dong he's packing...

[NavinRJohnson]

Perhaps 'just a guy' is touch strong for Forte. He's not AP, he's not LT, etc. Not close. He's fine. I am not much of a Ryan Grant fan, but their rushing numbers last year were identical (Grant's rookie numbers in '07 were actually better than last years...5.7 avg.) I expect Forte to put up better numbers this year, but I very much consider Ryan Grant just a guy.

Forte had much bigger receiving numbers, but lets get real...that was a function of the Bears having nowhere else to throw the ball coupled with their QBs inability to do so. Lets put it this way, if Forte catches 80 passes this year, as was suggested, the Bears will be lucky to be 8-8.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'll take the 2007 Brett Favre even with the pass in the championship game. He was great that year and they never would have made it that far without him.

Unfortunately, you're getting the 2009 version. Good luck.

[MU B2002]

if Forte catches 80 passes this year, as was suggested, the Bears will be lucky to be 8-8.

Since the NFC North Pissing match is also the most accurate thread on the Scoop...

90 receptions was suggested.   Were the 49ers bad when Craig caught a lot of balls out of the backfield, did they have crappy receivers, or maybe it was poor QB play...

[Moonboots]

The last three were nothing to write home about? What planet are you from? 64% completion, 4 TD. 61% completion. 2 TD. 61.5% completion. 1 TD (1 INT).  The last game against the Giants is the only one that was "nothing to write home about."  The other two meet the qualities of "ridiculously efficient".  

And you've seen Favre play well in the playoffs.  I have, too.  But I've also only seen it once in the last six years.  You're banking on a quarterback with one quality playoff game in the last six years to become a playoff magician? Best of luck.  Honestly.

It's impossible that the Jets' renaissance was a function of them building up their offensive line, adding a quality running back, and getting a difference maker in the middle of their defense, in addition to Favre.  No, it was just Lord Favre and his eight multi-turnover games. That's it.

I'll give you that the Vikings' back up situation at QB is better than the Packers, but if you think he can shoulder the load of Favre goes down, think again.  He's mediocre in every sense of the word.  Heck, he can't even hold a lead if the QB goes down, much less win a game starting with the score at 0-0.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2008-10-05/rosenfels-texans-collapse-loss-colts

Jay Bee, you can continue to make cracks about UW-Waukesha, one liners about Ryan Grant, and all the other trash you contribute to this thread, but you've already embarrassed yourself.  I have enough faith in the fact that I scout every NFL team - starting with the NFC North, then the rest of the conference and beyond - to know that I dwarf what you know about football tenfold.  Everyone else in here knows it as well.  So be content with your little wise cracks. And be ready to pay up.

[NavinRJohnson]

90 receptions was suggested.   Were the 49ers bad when Craig caught a lot of balls out of the backfield, did they have crappy receivers, or maybe it was poor QB play...

Are we really comparing one of the best teams in the history of the NFL, running the most innovative offense in the history of the NFL for the first time, to the 2009 Chicago Bears?

If Devin Hester and Rashied Davis catch passes comparable with what Rice and Taylor did at the same time Craig was catching all of those balls, I will gladly stand corrected. If Forte catches that many balls, it is because their receivers are not, and the Bears offense will be completely ineffective as they are being limited to screens and check downs.  

[MU B2002]

Are we really comparing one of the best teams in the history of the NFL, running the most innovative offense in the history of the NFL for the first time, to the 2009 Chicago Bears?

If Devin Hester and Rashied Davis catch passes comparable with what Rice and Taylor did at the same time Craig was catching all of those balls, I will gladly stand corrected. If Forte catches that many balls, it is because their receivers are not, and the Bears offense will be completely ineffective as they are being limited to screens and check downs.  

No, not at all.  Just comparing Forte to Craig (which was where Peter King posted the 90 catch statement.) I was just stating that there is more than one scenario where a RB catches a lot of balls out of the backfield.  I would rather see Forte in the 50-60 range(for balance purposes) and WRs and Olson make up the difference.  I agree that a lot of the balls Matt caught were check downs from Orton, and some of those will dissappear.  And actually I don't even know if Davis will be the #3, let alone #2 WR.

[LON]

No, not at all.  Just comparing Forte to Craig (which was where Peter King posted the 90 catch statement.) I was just stating that there is more than one scenario where a RB catches a lot of balls out of the backfield.  I would rather see Forte in the 50-60 range(for balance purposes) and WRs and Olson make up the difference.  I agree that a lot of the balls Matt caught were check downs from Orton, and some of those will dissappear.  And actually I don't even know if Davis will be the #3, let alone #2 WR.

you lost all credibility when you admitted you go to Peter King for analysis...
If you wanted to know how much corn is in Favre's stool then I would go to PK, or where I can find a really good place to get European style coffee

[MU B2002]

you lost all credibility when you admitted you go to Peter King for analysis...
If you wanted to know how much corn is in Favre's stool then I would go to PK, or where I can find a really good place to get European style coffee

Wait....  I had credibility?! Oh well.
I simply was repeating one line of text.  

I also go to him when I want to find out how much of a pain in the ass traveling first class can be.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'll take the 2007 Brett Favre even with the pass in the championship game. He was great that year and they never would have made it that far without him.

Unfortunately, you're getting the 2009 version. Good luck.

Hey, he's better than anything else the Vikes have.

I'm realistic. Don't confuse me with some whacked out Vikes fan.

Do I expect Brett to be 1995 Brett Favre? (like you said before) Nope.

Do I think he can be effective at 39 years old after missing training camp, having surgery and having his name mentioned on ESPN 100,000 times? Yep, I think he can. There have been several QB's who have been effective into their 40's. Brett is not exactly breaking new ground here.

He's in a good situation where I think he can play well.

We can do all of the pissing and moaning we want, but the proof will be on the field this fall.

If Favre sucks, I'll admit I was wrong, but I expect him to play pretty well. (not MVP numbers, but maybe 20tds and 14 picks depending on how the season goes (injuries, defensive issues, etc.))

[LON]

Wait....  I had credibility?! Oh well.
I simply was repeating one line of text.  

I also go to him when I want to find out how much of a pain in the ass traveling first class can be.

you got caught in the crossfire of my PK hate and it is apparent you think he's a douche as well...

[MU B2002]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Brett-Favre-throws-a-dirty-block-at-Eugene-Wilso?urn=nfl,186324

[GOMU1104]

So Favre apparently has a cracked rib, yet Chilly decides to split him out in a preseason game and have him throw a block on a reverse?

Yikes

[Jay Bee]

Peter King loves the Packers.

PXI, thanks for correcting your ‘league/lead’ error.  I can picture you reviewing each of your posts several times, just for my sake.  It’s evident we are not going to agree on much, unless I suddenly become a fan of shorty robes and wine coolers.  That said, I hope you will at least own up to your loss when you pay me for the bet, and not list out a million excuses.

[PS - SIdney vs. SYdney Rice.]

BTW, I fully expect to say, 'WTF, you dumba$$!' several times this season when Favre throws some sidearmed crap to a linebacker... but the good/great will far outweigh the bad.  

Shiancoe was terrible until they broadcast him nekkid.  Now, he's a total stud on the field.  It did a lot for his confidence (and made PXI his #1 fan).  

[MU B2002]

Peter King loves the Packers.

PXI, thanks for correcting your ‘league/lead’ error.  I can picture you reviewing each of your posts several times, just for my sake.  It’s evident we are not going to agree on much, unless I suddenly become a fan of shorty robes and wine coolers.  That said, I hope you will at least own up to your loss when you pay me for the bet, and not list out a million excuses.

[PS - SIdney vs. SYdney Rice.]

BTW, I fully expect to say, 'WTF, you dumba$$!' several times this season when Favre throws some sidearmed crap to a linebacker... but the good/great will far outweigh the bad.  

Shiancoe was terrible until they broadcast him nekkid.  Now, he's a total stud on the field.  It did a lot for his confidence (and made PXI his #1 fan).  

Didn't you recently accuse someone of being young or a UW - Wak. grad in regards to a post belittling you?  Heaven forbid you respond to a post without making a veiled homosexual slam about another poster.  Are you seriously tyring to get everythread you post in locked?  See: http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15357.msg146040;topicseen#new

[DegenerateDish]

Perhaps 'just a guy' is touch strong for Forte. He's not AP, he's not LT, etc. Not close. He's fine. I am not much of a Ryan Grant fan, but their rushing numbers last year were identical (Grant's rookie numbers in '07 were actually better than last years...5.7 avg.) I expect Forte to put up better numbers this year, but I very much consider Ryan Grant just a guy.

Forte had much bigger receiving numbers, but lets get real...that was a function of the Bears having nowhere else to throw the ball coupled with their QBs inability to do so. Lets put it this way, if Forte catches 80 passes this year, as was suggested, the Bears will be lucky to be 8-8.

Just curious, do you play fantasy football? Forte is a consensus top five pick (overall and among RB's). I'm just wondering where you have him ranked. Thousands (millions?) of people have Forte as one of the five statistical best RB's in the NFL as his second year in the league. I can appreciate if you view Forte through green and gold colored glasses, but the guy is the real deal.

[Moonboots]

Just curious, do you play fantasy football? Forte is a consensus top five pick (overall and among RB's). I'm just wondering where you have him ranked. Thousands (millions?) of people have Forte as one of the five statistical best RB's in the NFL as his second year in the league. I can appreciate if you view Forte through green and gold colored glasses, but the guy is the real deal.

I still don't know if he's top 5 overall. Fantasy, for sure. But that's only because he accounted for the highest percentage of a single offense of any team in the NFL.  Touches = fantasy value.  I'd still take Peterson, LT, Steven Jackson, Turner, Jacobs, DeAngelo Williams, a healthy Westbrook and maybe Clinton Portis over him.  Not many more, though. And I expect him to top half of those guys by this year or next.

[GGGG]

Just curious, do you play fantasy football? Forte is a consensus top five pick (overall and among RB's). I'm just wondering where you have him ranked. Thousands (millions?) of people have Forte as one of the five statistical best RB's in the NFL as his second year in the league. I can appreciate if you view Forte through green and gold colored glasses, but the guy is the real deal.

The use of fantasy statistics to justify your position sounds moronic.  Just look at the real stats - third in total yards from scrimmage, third in touches, etc.  Now granted these are accumulation statistics that make fantasy people swoon...and his ypc is a paltry 3.9...but he looks like a good, productive NFL back.

[Moonboots]

Peter King loves the Packers.

PXI, thanks for correcting your ‘league/lead’ error.  I can picture you reviewing each of your posts several times, just for my sake.  It’s evident we are not going to agree on much, unless I suddenly become a fan of shorty robes and wine coolers.  That said, I hope you will at least own up to your loss when you pay me for the bet, and not list out a million excuses.

[PS - SIdney vs. SYdney Rice.]

BTW, I fully expect to say, 'WTF, you dumba$$!' several times this season when Favre throws some sidearmed crap to a linebacker... but the good/great will far outweigh the bad.  

Shiancoe was terrible until they broadcast him nekkid.  Now, he's a total stud on the field.  It did a lot for his confidence (and made PXI his #1 fan).  

I review my posts several times for the sake of pride and accuracy, but if you want to use it as a means to feed your overly large ego, be my guest.

I'm impervious to your taunts, really, because it's painfully obvious that the further I get under your skin with facts and actual football knowledge, the more vile, disgusting and off-color your slurs become.  It's incredibly entertaining.  I just love to talk football, and talking football with people who know nothing but think they know a lot is quite a bit of fun.

Here's another fact I'll throw your way.  You know absolutely nothing about me, my sexual orientation, or really anything else, period.  You do, however, have a strange tendency to look at people's profiles and compare what you see there to the Marquette student directory.  You've referred to a number of people on this site by first name, including my roommate, knowing full well that you have no idea who they are and they have no idea who you are.  This is very strange behavior, indeed.

Oh, and I'm not sure who your Sidney Rice comment was intended for.  That wasn't me.

Anyways, back to football.

What does most of this NFC North-slanted group feel about other contenders in the NFC?  By my estimation, the favorite going in should have been the Eagles, but losing Jim Johnson was big, and losing Stewart Bradley for the year puts a big hole at one of those LB spots.  McNabb is still solid, Vick shouldn't have too big of an impact but a big play here or there can change the complexion of a game, and they now have talent at receiver to match the prowess of Westbrook in the backfield.

The Giants should be in the mix, as well. Even though I feel Eli is a bit overrated (especially with this latest contract), he's still a quality QB and has performed admirably in the playoffs in recent years.  Losing Ward behind Jacobs could be a bigger loss than anyone anticipated, but if Bradshaw picks up the slack and one of Steve Smith, Hixon, Manningham, Nicks or Barden emerges as a threat to go with their pass rush on the other side of the ball, they'll be big time again.

I really like the Saints this year.  Brees could very well be the best QB in the league at the moment, and he has plenty of weapons.  The emergence of Pierre Thomas as a full time back allows Bush to be used more liberally in different formations.  First year coordinator Gregg Williams has a tough job ahead of him, but if he can at least get his pressure 4-3 to generate turnovers and lift that group to average, they'll be quality as well.

Lastly, Atlanta.  Matt Ryan is a bona fide franchise QB, and adding Tony Gonzalez as a security blanket opens things up for Turner and Roddy White to do even bigger things.  Gonzo will be a big factor on third downs this year.  Their defense depends entirely on the performance of John Abraham.  He might be the best single defender in the NFC.  As he goes, their defense goes, and so will the Falcons in 2009.

I'm not sold on anyone in the NFC West.  The 49ers are still without a QB (though I love Singletary as a coach). A healthy Hasselbeck and the addition of Houshmandzadeh could open things up a bit for Seattle, but they have few difference makers on that team.  The Rams remain the Rams, and outside of Steven Jackson, Donnie Avery, and Atogwe at safety, they don't have anything approaching blue chip there. The Cardinals got hot at the right time, but no running game and a porous defense could spell trouble and not allow them to run and gun their way deep into the playoffs again.  They're still the class of that division, but I don't think they make noise in the playoffs this year.

Thoughts?

[DegenerateDish]

Please, if you've been on this board long enough, you know I was just making a point. Judging everything by fantasy is "meatball" dumb. I was just proving a point to prove statistically, Forte is a top tier back. I'm not a fantasy stats mean everything in the world type of guy. Value to it is that statistically speaking, Forte is more than "just a guy". Some people only see things through fantasy stats, hence the point I was making.