NFC North Pissing Match

[wadesworld]

My thoughts: I would STILL like to see Va-Jay-Jay-Bee define the word "consensus."

[NavinRJohnson]

Just curious, do you play fantasy football? Forte is a consensus top five pick (overall and among RB's)...I can appreciate if you view Forte through green and gold colored glasses, but the guy is the real deal.

Fine. Matt Forte is the greatest running back in football. Is that better? Seriously, he is a fine player, and he is a great fantasy player for the reasons I've already stated. His receiving abilities and opportunities are the reasons why. Who cares? As far as trying to win football games, he is simply not a guy that is gonna dominate a game like AP, LT, etc. I am also saying his putting up great fantasy numbers in the air helps his fantasy owners win games, but it is not necessarily gonna do the same for the Bears. More a function of the inability of their receivers than it is a function of needing to get the ball into the hands of Forte.

Ryan Grant: 312 Att., 1203 yds, 3.9 avg.
Matt Forte: 316 Att., 1238 yds, 3.9 avg.

I believe Forte is a better player than Grant...the rushing numbers alone don't necessarily say as much however. If you want him to be your leading receiver, as anything close to 90 catches most assuredly would make him, as a Packer fan, I would sign up for that in a second. I assume all Packer and Viking fans would join me in that.

[Moonboots]

Fine. Matt Forte is the greatest running back in football. Is that better? Seriously, he is a fine player, and he is a great fantasy player for the reasons I've already stated. His receiving abilities and opportunities are the reasons why. Who cares? As far as trying to win football games, he is simply not a guy that is gonna dominate a game like AP, LT, etc. I am also saying his putting up great fantasy numbers in the air helps his fantasy owners win games, but it is not necessarily gonna do the same for the Bears. More a function of the inability of their receivers than it is a function of needing to get the ball into the hands of Forte.

Ryan Grant: 312 Att., 1203 yds, 3.9 avg.
Matt Forte: 316 Att., 1238 yds, 3.9 avg.

I believe Forte is a better player than Grant...the rushing numbers alone don't necessarily say as much however. If you want him to be your leading receiver, as anything close to 90 catches most assuredly would make him, as a Packer fan, I would sign up for that in a second. I assume all Packer and Viking fans would join me in that.

Concur. Although that would make him an absolute fantasy beast, it would mean a whole lot of checking down and not a lot of ball movement for the Bears.  That's not something I'm opposed to.  I would have thought by now Angelo would have reached out for a high priced free agent at WR.  Even I'm getting tired of watching Al Harris beat Devin Hester into the ground within five yards of the line every time there's a Bears possession. 

Actually, I'm not.  But that guy just isn't cut out to be a receiver until he bulks up a bit, runs crisper routes, has better hands, and learns proper body control.  He's a phenomenal athlete and a dynamite punt returner, though.

[DegenerateDish]

Concur. Although that would make him an absolute fantasy beast, it would mean a whole lot of checking down and not a lot of ball movement for the Bears.  That's not something I'm opposed to.  I would have thought by now Angelo would have reached out for a high priced free agent at WR.  Even I'm getting tired of watching Al Harris beat Devin Hester into the ground within five yards of the line every time there's a Bears possession. 

Actually, I'm not.  But that guy just isn't cut out to be a receiver until he bulks up a bit, runs crisper routes, has better hands, and learns proper body control.  He's a phenomenal athlete and a dynamite punt returner, though.

Your last paragraph is dead on. Sadly none of those things will ever happen. He should just return kicks/punts.

[Jay Bee]

Anyways, back to football.

What does most of this NFC North-slanted group feel about other contenders in the NFC?

  While anyways is not a word, the rest of your comments were fine (although calling anyone other than the Consensus Vikings a contender is a bit of a stretch).  The NFC East, like the North, could go any number of ways, with my money on Philly.  I'm interested to see how their fans treat Donovan if things aren't going perfectly when Vick becomes eligible to play.  I can see dude (McNabb) in a Vikings uniform in 2010.  The West is not good.  New Orleans could make noise; I don't believe in Arizona in 2009, despite last year.  
  
  But for now what matters most is Gophers vs. Paulus on Saturday.

[Moonboots]

  While anyways is not a word, the rest of your comments were fine (although calling anyone other than the Consensus Vikings a contender is a bit of a stretch).  The NFC East, like the North, could go any number of ways, with my money on Philly.  I'm interested to see how their fans treat Donovan if things aren't going perfectly when Vick becomes eligible to play.  I can see dude (McNabb) in a Vikings uniform in 2010.  The West is not good.  New Orleans could make noise; I don't believe in Arizona in 2009, despite last year.  
  
  But for now what matters most is Gophers vs. Paulus on Saturday.

You bring up an interesting point with regards to McNabb and next season.  Does everyone here think Favre is one and done, or will he stretch it out to another year in purple?

Oh... http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anyways

[NavinRJohnson]

He's a phenomenal athlete and a dynamite punt returner, though.

Well, he was anyway. Not last year though. Gonna be interesting to see what he does this year.

[Moonboots]

Well, he was anyway. Not last year though. Gonna be interesting to see what he does this year.

For as much as I keep up on what goes on with most NFL teams, I never understood or dug deeper to find out why Hester wasn't the all time punt and kick returner.  I noticed in a few Bears games I watched that other guys were getting reps there.  Can any Bears fans shed light on this? Was he that ineffective or do you think they were trying to keep him out of harm's way since they were grooming him as a full time WR? 

[MU B2002]

Well, he was anyway. Not last year though. Gonna be interesting to see what he does this year.

I think last year he just had to many things going through his head.  Trying to learn the playbook, how to run routes, etc would be a lot to absorb for a guy that hasn't played on that side of the ball for awhile.  (I would say ever, but I don't know what he played in High School). Combine that with the wear and tear of getting hit more often, and it's easy to see why one could have an off year.  Hopefully the move to just returning punts will be good for him.  Although I think he does more damage to the Bears on punts, with trying to do to much, back pedaling, drops, etc.

[jmayer1]

although calling anyone other than the Consensus Vikings a contender is a bit of a stretch.

The NFC East, like the North, could go any number of ways

Hmmm, if the division can go any number of ways, then the Vikings would certainly not be considered the consensus pick.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus

[MU B2002]

For as much as I keep up on what goes on with most NFL teams, I never understood or dug deeper to find out why Hester wasn't the all time punt and kick returner.  I noticed in a few Bears games I watched that other guys were getting reps there.  Can any Bears fans shed light on this? Was he that ineffective or do you think they were trying to keep him out of harm's way since they were grooming him as a full time WR? 

I think Manning, who they plugged in last year, led the league in yds per return.  (I could be totally wrong on this, but I remember reading that recently.)  I think his having success coupled with Hester's "slump" were the reason.

MUdish can correct me if I'm wrong.  

Dish - I also wonder what you make of Harris this year...  Will we see the old quick Tommy?

[Moonboots]

Your last paragraph is dead on. Sadly none of those things will ever happen. He should just return kicks/punts.

Some of those things just can't be taught, to an extent.  Steve Smith is a perfect example.  He's 1-2" shorter and 5 pounds lighter than Hester, but he might have the best body control of any WR in the NFL.  I saw it first hand, unfortunately, about 200 feet in front of me at Lambeau Field during the Packers-Panthers game.  Watching Smith give a small forearm shiver to put Charles Woodson off balance, then position his body in a way that allowed him to come down with the ball was just incredible.  Not many WRs do that to Charles Woodson, period, much less ones who are under 6' tall. 

Hester just doesn't have that ability with the ball in the air.  Where he does is in the open field with the ball in his hands.  I almost foresee a similar situation for Percy Harvin.  He and Hester are built almost identically, and Harvin wasn't familiarized with typical NFL routes at Florida.  They got him into space and let him work, and he rarely if ever took a big hit.  I don't know if that will be as effective at the NFL level.  Defenses are faster, coordinators (for the most part) are smarter.  He might get there eventually, but he's not going to be a sound receiver fundamentally yet this year.

[Moonboots]

I think Manning, who they plugged in last year, led the league in yds per return.  (I could be totally wrong on this, but I remember reading that recently.)  I think his having success coupled with Hester's "slump" were the reason.

MUdish can correct me if I'm wrong.  

Dish - I also wonder what you make of Harris this year...  Will we see the old quick Tommy?

That dude scares me.  I think Harris is the second best player on your defense to Lance Briggs.

[GGGG]

Please, if you've been on this board long enough, you know I was just making a point. Judging everything by fantasy is "meatball" dumb. I was just proving a point to prove statistically, Forte is a top tier back. I'm not a fantasy stats mean everything in the world type of guy. Value to it is that statistically speaking, Forte is more than "just a guy". Some people only see things through fantasy stats, hence the point I was making.

Got it.  My apologies.

[LON]

That dude scares me.  I think Harris is the second best player on your defense to Lance Briggs.

the thing to do with Briggs is to take him out partying and then suggest he give you a ride in his lamborghini

[Hards Alumni]

Tommy Harris is washed up.

you heard it here first.

[MU B2002]

Tommy Harris is washed up.

you heard it here first.

Man first you tell me 1554 is garbage and now this....

I think, if healthy (and that's a big if), Harris is far from washed up.  He has been playing on one leg for the better part of two years and I don't think ever fully recovered from the nasty Hamstring injury.  Hopefully he is back, as he is a big key to what Chicago tries to do on defense.  If he is washed up as you say, this will need to be a higher scoring season.  The Chicago secondary scares me in a bad way, and if a QB has time to sit in the pocket the Bears would get picked apart.

[NavinRJohnson]

Tommy Harris is washed up.

you heard it here first.

I tend to agree. I think the injuries may have taken too big of a toll.

[DegenerateDish]

MU_B2002 hit it right on the head in regards to Hester. I've never met him, and what I know from people in the organization, they all say the same thing....nicest kid in the world, but dumb as a rock. He honestly just can't comprehend everything. I know it sounds/seems dumb, but he can't focus on returning kicks and learning the offense at the same time. It's just who and how he is. They actually trust Hester more on punts because it's such a reactionary type skill (as opposed to a kick off where you game plan the wedge).

In regards to Harris, I don't think it needs to be heard here first that he's washed up. He doesn't trust his leg at all. Harris' decline started in '07 and has been steady since. In his prime (which should be right now), his explosiveness off the snap was awesome. It's just not there any more, and considering his size, Harris has to rely on his speed/quickness to be effective. I've said it here before too that Tommy is a little "crazy" as well. It would not shock me one bit if he retired in the next two years, that's just Tommy.

[Hards Alumni]

Man first you tell me 1554 is garbage and now this....

I think, if healthy (and that's a big if), Harris is far from washed up.  He has been playing on one leg for the better part of two years and I don't think ever fully recovered from the nasty Hamstring injury.  Hopefully he is back, as he is a big key to what Chicago tries to do on defense.  If he is washed up as you say, this will need to be a higher scoring season.  The Chicago secondary scares me in a bad way, and if a QB has time to sit in the pocket the Bears would get picked apart.

haha I meant no offense on the 1554, I just didn't think the world of it, and haven't bought a 3rd bomber, nor do I plan to.  Could be that I just prefer different tastes... or that I am somewhat snobbish about beer that is "microbrewed" but yet, really isn't.

As for Tommy Harris, he used to be a man among boys... during that Super Bowl run the Bears had, I (as a Packer fan) thought he was easily the best DT in the game, and the thought of him being around the North (along with the Williams boys in MN) gave me nightmares.  But as MUDish said, his best days are probably behind him.

[LON]

How does anyone even understand what Hester is saying, he brings a whole new level to "talking with a mouthful of gravel"

[NavinRJohnson]

How does anyone even understand what Hester is saying, he brings a whole new level to "talking with a mouthful of gravel"

Maybe that's the problem. Maybe he has been trying to tell them he doesn't want to play receiver this whole time, but they just don't understand him.

[wadesworld]

"Green Bay is clearly the team to beat in the division, and the Packers are about to force us to pay attention."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/09/01/winners.losers/index.html?eref=sihpT1

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/01/mail/index.html?eref=sihpT1

Hmm.  Vajay-Jay Bee, please define the word "consensus."  I'm interested to hear what it is to you.

[Jay Bee]

"Green Bay is clearly the team to beat in the division, and the Packers are about to force us to pay attention."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/09/01/winners.losers/index.html?eref=sihpT1

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/01/mail/index.html?eref=sihpT1

Hmm.  Vajay-Jay Bee, please define the word "consensus."  I'm interested to hear what it is to you.

  It's when most every reasonable person agrees.  An example: when Pathetic Patti has to search low and hard (a favorite past time of his) to find an article that 'praises' GB, while at the same time the article says the following, which includes 'if we're to believe anything about the preseason, it's possible Chicago and Green Bay are on Minnesota's level"

  "Now, that's not a knock on the Vikings. It simply an acknowledgement that if we're to believe anything about the preseason (and that is a dubious practice right there, taking anything from practice games), it's possible Chicago and Green Bay are on Minnesota's level, and we've got a new power division in the NFL."

[wadesworld]

  It's when most every reasonable person agrees.  An example: when Pathetic Patti has to search low and hard (a favorite past time of his) to find an article that 'praises' GB, while at the same time the article says the following, which includes 'if we're to believe anything about the preseason, it's possible Chicago and Green Bay are on Minnesota's level"

  "Now, that's not a knock on the Vikings. It simply an acknowledgement that if we're to believe anything about the preseason (and that is a dubious practice right there, taking anything from practice games), it's possible Chicago and Green Bay are on Minnesota's level, and we've got a new power division in the NFL."

Vajay-Jay Bee, I like how you take 1 of the 2 articles and disregard the other one.  And search low and hard?  It's on the front page of si.com!  But you are right, that took me a very long time to find  Do you enjoy embarassing yourself, Vajay-Jay?