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Author Topic: NFC North Pissing Match  (Read 113518 times)

Hards Alumni

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2009, 08:29:58 AM »
Jay Bee once again proving he knows nothing about the NFL.

MU B2002

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2009, 08:37:24 AM »
before everyone jumps on me for saying the preseason isn't worth anything,

 With the bears, though Forte is golden, but who is Jay auntler going to throw to besides Greg Olsen? I'm even suprising myself by saying they are the 3rd best defense in the division, but I think that speaks to the quality of the division and my homerism.



1.  Lions went 4-0 last year in the preseason, so yes it means nothing.

2. Cutler will have plenty of options, albeit not big names, in the passing game.  Forte is one of the best at catching the ball out of the backfield, and Hester should find a lot more success with a QB that can get the ball to him when he is more than 20 yards away.  While the Bears might not have a Greg Jennings type talent, they'll get by.  And who knows maybe we get Brandon Marshall for $.20 on the dollar by October 1.
"VPI"
- Mike Hunt

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2009, 08:37:48 AM »
You think so?

Nope.

But, I also think Brett Favre can throw more than 5 yards. So we can disagree on 2 things.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2009, 08:52:06 AM »
But, I also think Brett Favre can throw more than 5 yards. So we can disagree on 2 things.


I think he can throw farther than 5 yards, but I honestly do have significant doubts about his ability to make all of the throws anymore. He demonstrated that last year...not sure why this year would be any different.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2009, 09:02:23 AM »
I think he can throw farther than 5 yards, but I honestly do have significant doubts about his ability to make all of the throws anymore. He demonstrated that last year...not sure why this year would be any different.

I agree with that. I certainly don't think he's as good as he was.

However, I do believe he can throw more than 5 yards.

Honestly, he's probably going to have to make about 4-5 good plays per game to be effective. What I mean is, 4 or 5 times per game he's going to have to make a great QB read, or scramble a little and make a strong throw, or make the correct audible and throw over the top when a team packs it in. Those are things that Jackson isn't really capable of doing (yet).

I'm not saying any of those things are easy, but realistically Brett doesn't have to shoulder the load on offense. He just has to make some key plays to keep drives alive and show a couple of deep balls per game to keep defenses from packing it in against Peterson.

IF everybody stays healthy (big if), the Vikes are going to be good. I think the John Elway/Terrel Davis comparison is pretty good. Elway was still a good player in his late years, but he wasn't the key to the offense like in previous years.

Brett might not have as much left in the tank as Elway in 97/98, but it's a similar situation.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2009, 09:07:40 AM »

Brett might not have as much left in the tank as Elway in 97/98, but it's a similar situation.


I think its a terrible comparison. For one, Elway was never the turnover machine that Favre has been his entire career. Add a couple birthdays to the mix, and it gets even worse. In his prime, Favre had the ability to make up for his own turnovers with spectacular plays. Those days are gone. Every INT he throws now equals a couple less carries for AP. That is the nightmare scenario for the Vikings.

DegenerateDish

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2009, 09:09:13 AM »
People keep mentioning the lack of "name" receivers on the Bears. It begs the question, do the receivers make a quarterback great, or does a quarterback make his receivers better?

No question after seeing Cutler up close that his arm strength and mobility in the pocket will make guys like Earl Bennett much better. FWIW, I think Hester is a terrible receiver. Poor hands, runs bad routes. I don't think even Cutler can make Hester a great receiver.

Olsen should make the Pro Bowl this season. Bears will utliize him a lot as an H back and in the slot. Linebackers and defensive ends won't be able to cover him. The new "monster" goal line set with Olsen, Dez Clark, and Kellen Davis on the field all at once is a terrible match up for opposing defenses (see Giants/Broncos preseason games).

Cutler also has one of the best check down options in the league with Forte. As Peter King pointed out yesterday, Forte could catch 90 passes this season.

Bears should have few problems scoring points this season. It's the giving up a ton of points that worries me as a Bears fan.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2009, 09:12:35 AM »
I think its a terrible comparison. For one, Elway was never the turnover machine that Favre has been his entire career. Add a couple birthdays to the mix, and it gets even worse. In his prime, Favre had the ability to make up for his own turnovers with spectacular plays. Those days are gone. Every INT he throws now equals a couple less carries for AP. That is the nightmare scenario for the Vikings.

I respectfully disagree.

While I realize Brett is a "gunslinger" (a lame cliche btw), I do think he can effectively manage a team and game without throwing the ball all over the field. I know he has a big ego and thinks he can do anything, but he also has to be excited that he doesn't have to throw it all over the field to be effective on this team.

You could be right, I might be right.

The beautiful thing is that we are going to find out.

EDIT: Just adding some stats to clarify the comparison. You are certainly right that Brett has a higher interception rate, but his TD/INT ratio is better (higher risk/higher reward scenario).

Also, Brett will be 39 at the start of the year, Elway was 38 in his last season. Brett is higher mileage (more games), but has been extremely durable through the years, so we'll have to see how he holds up. Elway was pretty durable, but did miss some games because of injury.

           Games started    TD's per game   INT's per game    TD/INT Ratio
Favre           231              2.01                 1.34                1.50/1
Elway           269              1.12                 0.84                1.33/1

« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 09:26:24 AM by 2002mualum »

Moonboots

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2009, 09:13:35 AM »
  Look back to last year, chief.  The Packers had no problems scoring - they scored by far the most in the NFC North and I think they were about #3 in the conference in TD's scored.  Yet, they only won 6 games.  6 fricken games - pathetic.  "Ooh, but we were close" doesn't count in the NFL - be a winner, or you're the opposite.  10+ wins if the offense is firing on all cylinders.  Get real. 

  I think* you mean Tarvaris Jackson, but maybe we've added a 5th QB over the past few hours.  I am sure Favre is leaps and bounds better (for this season) than Jackson.  I also believe Sage is a better option than Tarvaris and would hope we trade Tarvaris (even for a 6th round pick) and keep JDB. 

  Keep on getting overly excited by preseason results -- it's the only time in 2009 you'll feel like you have a chance (although both GB and MINN are 3-0 thus far).

So what happened last year is entirely indicative of what will happen this year? Got it.  Let me spell this out for you.  Tarvaris Jackson (yes, I'm anal about spelling, so I won't give you the opportunity to be a total b*tch about it) was ridiculously efficient over the last five games last year.  There is a chance that he was actually coming to his own.  Instead of letting him grow in the offense, your head coach (apparently motivated by his lack of testicles) let an almost-40 year old QB jerk him and the rest of your locker room around, and walk right into a starting job without doing anything to earn it except lead the NFL in turnovers last year.  

It smacks of hypocritical if you'll acknowledge that the Packers scored all those points and lost 10 games, but won't acknowledge that your current starting QB pulled an epic collapse over the final five games last year, almost single handedly eliminating a contender from the playoffs.

Now, consider for a moment that the Packers scored ALL those points last year, return an improving second year starter at QB, another weapon at TE coming into his own, and have a healthy starting RB.  If Dom Capers even marginally improves the defense over the joke that was last year, the Packers are are going to win a lot of games.  If he improves them more than that, they're instant contenders.  I honestly don't know what part of "great offense" and "great defense" makes you think that we'll repeat 6-10. But you'll spew some garbage about how Capers has turned around the last six defenses he's coached in the first year means nothing, but the fact that we won six games last year and you won ten does.  Hypocritical? Absolutely.  Will someone call you out on it?  I plan to.

I'll even give a little shout out to my rivals from the south.  They won nine games last year, have a second year stud at RB, a veteran defense, one of the better special teams units in the NFL, and a more dynamic QB.  If they find any offensive weapons other than Forte and Olsen, they'll be a factor in this division, too. But you'll never admit that.

We know, we know.  You won the division last year (and got blown out in the playoffs).  We won it the year before.  The Bears won it the year before that.  The NFC North sure as hell isn't your birthright.  And, obviously, neither are world championships.  So for the life of me, I can't figure out why you think the way you do, but I'm going to turn it into a very profitable investment for myself.

Scour that post for misspellings to exploit so you don't actually need to talk about football.  I doubt you'll find any.  I'd appreciate a reply other than "we won ten games last year."  Specifically, how a thirty nine year old quarterback with a surgically repaired biceps and a torn rotator cuff who did no offseason work with your team is a better option than a young, growing quarterback.  The only direction Favre can go is south.  This dink and dunk crap that we saw last night will work just fine against the hapless Texans D and their tackle-missing tendencies, but when he's forced to go over the top and "make a play out there", you're going to see him throw away some games for you, and I'm going to enjoy every minute of it.


NavinRJohnson

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2009, 09:26:27 AM »

I do think he can effectively manage a team and game without throwing the ball all over the field.


Besides wanting to believe it, what evidence is there to suggest this? When has he ever demonstrated as much? Perhaps in his prime in the mid-90's with Coach Holmgren. He's not in his prime. Its not the mid-90's, and Childress is not Mike Holmgren.

Again, keep believing it if you want, but doing so, seems to require ignoring history.

Moonboots

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2009, 09:28:25 AM »
People keep mentioning the lack of "name" receivers on the Bears. It begs the question, do the receivers make a quarterback great, or does a quarterback make his receivers better?

No question after seeing Cutler up close that his arm strength and mobility in the pocket will make guys like Earl Bennett much better. FWIW, I think Hester is a terrible receiver. Poor hands, runs bad routes. I don't think even Cutler can make Hester a great receiver.

Olsen should make the Pro Bowl this season. Bears will utliize him a lot as an H back and in the slot. Linebackers and defensive ends won't be able to cover him. The new "monster" goal line set with Olsen, Dez Clark, and Kellen Davis on the field all at once is a terrible match up for opposing defenses (see Giants/Broncos preseason games).

Cutler also has one of the best check down options in the league with Forte. As Peter King pointed out yesterday, Forte could catch 90 passes this season.

Bears should have few problems scoring points this season. It's the giving up a ton of points that worries me as a Bears fan.

I think it's a give and take thing.  Cutler is clearly more talented than Orton, but he's also prone to making bad decisions.  His big mass stats came as a combination of his talent and the fact that the Broncos just chuck all game long.  He put the ball up 616 times last year. It's a given the Bears won't let that happen.  Forty five hundred yards is impressive, but his yards/attempt (7.4) was less than Rodgers (7.5), he just threw the ball 80 more times.  

I don't mean to turn this into a Rodgers vs. Cutler post, I've just heard so many comparisons (in Cutler's favor) that I need to lay out why I feel like Cutler is mildly overrated in that respect.  Orton put the ball up 465 times last year.  Ironically, in '07, Cutler put the ball up 467 times, for 3500 yards, 20TD/14 INT.  Not a bad year by any means. But it doesn't look like last year's numbers for Cutler, and they won't mimic last year unless Lovie/Turner have a major change of philosophy this year.  That being said, I don't think any Bears fan would be unhappy with 20TD/14INT and 3500 yards, and they shouldn't be.  He's an improvement at quarterback, but it remains to be seen if he's good enough to overcome the loss of a bona fide #1 like Marshall (104 receptions a year ago, 102 in '07).  Typically, the TD% and INT% numbers seem to return to the median, and Cutler is 4.4% TD, 3.0% INT, so translate that out to however many attempts they give him in this offense, and it should be close.  For comparison's sake, as a Packer homer, Rodgers' one year as a starter gives him a base of 4.9%TD and 2.4%INT to work with.  If he continues on that track, that's not only top 10 but top 5 status.

But back to the Bears.  Cutler is a fresh face at QB with a much better arm than Orton ever possessed.  If he can keep his poor decisions to a minimum, we'll definitely have a three team race in the North.  As we know, my money is on the Pack.  But this will be fun to watch.

Moonboots

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2009, 09:30:01 AM »
Besides wanting to believe it, what evidence is there to suggest this? When has he ever demonstrated as much? Perhaps in his prime in the mid-90's with Coach Holmgren. He's not in his prime. Its not the mid-90's, and Childress is not Mike Holmgren.

Again, keep believing it if you want, but doing so, seems to require ignoring history.

Just ask Jay Bee, he's incredible at ignoring history.  Unless the only history you acknowledge is that the Vikings won the division last year.  That's the extent of his NFL knowledge.

Unless you include "except for having 40% of our offensive line being new starters, one as a rookie and one replacing a career all-pro center, we're golden on the offensive line."
 ::)

LON

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2009, 09:34:42 AM »
Favre will just illegally (and cheaply) crackback every safety they play so he can start chucking bombs against second stringers...

Then he'll fart in the huddle and laugh and Gruden will talk without the use of his hands for once and we all look on in admiration of a 40 year old "just having fun out there"...

 

GOMU1104

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2009, 09:35:13 AM »
Just ask Jay Bee, he's incredible at ignoring history.  Unless the only history you acknowledge is that the Vikings won the division last year.  That's the extent of his NFL knowledge.

Unless you include "except for having 40% of our offensive line being new starters, one as a rookie and one replacing a career all-pro center, we're golden on the offensive line."
 ::)


Judging by his extensive use of "we" and "our," I would suspect he has significant inside knowledge of the organization.  He could work for them, play for them, heck...he may even be the guy who blows the horn...

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2009, 09:36:04 AM »
Besides wanting to believe it, what evidence is there to suggest this? When has he ever demonstrated as much? Perhaps in his prime in the mid-90's with Coach Holmgren. He's not in his prime. Its not the mid-90's, and Childress is not Mike Holmgren.

Again, keep believing it if you want, but doing so, seems to require ignoring history.

You're right. He has a big ego and has always loved to sling it.

However, just 2 years ago Brett was lauded for effectively managing the team and their short passing game. He sliced and diced secondaries with a short, controlled passing game and let the receivers run after the catch (I believe the Packers led the league in YAC that year).

His TD/INT ratio was an impressive 1.8/1 and people were loving him for modifying some of his old ways. Late in the Giants game, he made a poor decision and a bad throw, and it cost the Pack. No doubt.

Now, in 2009, do I think he's going to become Neil O'Donnell? Nope.

Do I think he can be effective? Yes, if healthy (big IF) I think Brett can be effective in 2009.

Also, I've added some stats to my previous post about the Elway comparison. I still think it's a pretty good comparison. I know you disagree. Do you have a better one?

NavinRJohnson

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2009, 09:40:30 AM »
Rodgers is better than Cutler...not by a wide margin necessarily, but he's a better QB. There is no comparison between the Packers receivers and the Bears. The Bears get the nod at TE, but like the QB comparison, the margin is much slimmer than many people think.

I like Forte, but he's just a guy - nothing special. He could catch that many passes because their receivers can't. That's a big number, that I agree with, but it is not necessarily a good thing.

The Bears offense will be ok...certainly better than past years. It does look as if their defense probably has gotten worse, not better though.

It is looking as if the Bears are probably the third team in a three team race, but it will probably be close, so an injury or two and a lucky bounce here or there for all three teams could make the difference.

Moonboots

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2009, 09:40:53 AM »
You're right. He has a big ego and has always loved to sling it.

However, just 2 years ago Brett was lauded for effectively managing the team and their short passing game. He sliced and diced secondaries with a short, controlled passing game and let the receivers run after the catch (I believe the Packers led the league in YAC that year).

His TD/INT ratio was an impressive 1.8/1 and people were loving him for modifying some of his old ways. Late in the Giants game, he made a poor decision and a bad throw, and it cost the Pack. No doubt.

Now, in 2009, do I think he's going to become Neil O'Donnell? Nope.

Do I think he can be effective? Yes, if healthy (big IF) I think Brett can be effective in 2009.

Also, I've added some stats to my previous post about the Elway comparison. I still think it's a pretty good comparison. I know you disagree. Do you have a better one?

He was also lauded for coming into Green Bay in March, studying film all off season, participating in off season activities, and working out with a personal trainer while he was off.  When he retired, he said that he still loved to play on Sundays, but it was the stuff in between that he couldn't make a 100% commitment to.  That's fine.  Now he found a team that doesn't require him to do that other stuff.

Childress and his crew are being even softer on Brett than Sherman was in his last year in Green Bay (2005). And we all remember how that turned out.

Moonboots

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2009, 09:42:43 AM »
Rodgers is better than Cutler...not by a wide margin necessarily, but he's a better QB. There is no comparison between the Packers receivers and the Bears. The Bears get the nod at TE, but like the QB comparison, the margin is much slimmer than many people think.

I like Forte, but he's just a guy - nothing special. He could catch that many passes because their receivers can't. That's a big number, that I agree with, but it is not necessarily a good thing.

The Bears offense will be ok...certainly better than past years. It does look as if their defense probably has gotten worse, not better though.

It is looking as if the Bears are probably the third team in a three team race, but it will probably be close, so an injury or two and a lucky bounce here or there for all three teams could make the difference.

@ Bold text. Really?  I disagree.  I'd love to have a guy like that.  I think last year was only the tip of the ice berg, and if they ever get a true #1 receiver (or a few of them..) to spread the field, he'll become even more of a threat.  The only rookie back I would take over him last year was Chris Johnson.  I'd put Forte ahead of Steve Slaton.  

Edit: And to respond to your last sentence, I agree.  Unfortunately, a key injury may determine the fate of this division.  Hopefully everyone from all three teams in the race stay healthy all year.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 09:44:16 AM by PXILibero2 »

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2009, 09:46:50 AM »
He was also lauded for coming into Green Bay in March, studying film all off season, participating in off season activities, and working out with a personal trainer while he was off.  When he retired, he said that he still loved to play on Sundays, but it was the stuff in between that he couldn't make a 100% commitment to.  That's fine.  Now he found a team that doesn't require him to do that other stuff.

Childress and his crew are being even softer on Brett than Sherman was in his last year in Green Bay (2005). And we all remember how that turned out.

All fair points. But, this team isn't the 2005 Packers. They are much, much better.

Brett will not have to shoulder the load. I think Brett Favre at at 39/40 can still be effective. Some of you guys disagree.

We will find out.

Hards Alumni

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2009, 09:50:42 AM »
Bears' weaknesses - pass defense, cutler's growing diva attitude, lack of a top notch WR
Bears' strengths - best combo back in the division (yes I said it), Cutler's arm, good frontline defense


Vikings' weaknesses - possible suspensions, questionable OL (by Jay Bee's count 2 of the 5 are question marks), Old Man Favre's attitude.
Vikings' strengths - AP, lots of returning players on an already good defense, ???

Packers' weaknesses - 3-4 scheme change, running game is questionable, special teams
Packers' strengths - Passing game will be dominant, depth on defense, Dom Capers

Hards Alumni

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2009, 09:53:36 AM »
All fair points. But, this team isn't the 2005 Packers. They are much, much better.

Brett will not have to shoulder the load. I think Brett Favre at at 39/40 can still be effective. Some of you guys disagree.

We will find out.


WHO IS GOING TO CATCH THE BALL BOBBY WADE?  BERNARD BERRIAN?  PERCY HARVIN?

HAHAHAHA WHAT A CROCK.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2009, 09:57:54 AM »
However, just 2 years ago Brett was lauded for effectively managing the team and their short passing game. He sliced and diced secondaries with a short, controlled passing game and let the receivers run after the catch (I believe the Packers led the league in YAC that year).


1. That was 2 years ago.
2. He was healthy.
3. His off season efforts prior to that season are well documented.
4. He had a stable of receivers that would make most teams in the league jealous.
5. He had the highest YPA of his career that season...that was clearly not all YAC.
6. You've already pointed out how it ended up. Despite all the good, the season ended on another terrible, all too typical decision.



DegenerateDish

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2009, 10:00:43 AM »
Rodgers is better than Cutler...not by a wide margin necessarily, but he's a better QB. There is no comparison between the Packers receivers and the Bears. The Bears get the nod at TE, but like the QB comparison, the margin is much slimmer than many people think.

I like Forte, but he's just a guy - nothing special. He could catch that many passes because their receivers can't. That's a big number, that I agree with, but it is not necessarily a good thing.

The Bears offense will be ok...certainly better than past years. It does look as if their defense probably has gotten worse, not better though.

It is looking as if the Bears are probably the third team in a three team race, but it will probably be close, so an injury or two and a lucky bounce here or there for all three teams could make the difference.

Forte is just a guy? You're going Murf on us with Diener is just a dime a dozen point guard.

Forte is hardly "just a guy". There's nothing wrong with a RB catching a ton of passes (see Craig, Roger or Payton, Walter). Forte is an outstanding receiver for a RB, and an outstanding blocking back. He's a borderline Pro Bowl back going into his second season. You really can't ask for much more for a complete back.

The homer in me would take Cutler over Rodgers, but as a pure football fan, I'd love to have either of them QB my team. I've been impressed with Rodgers. Besides his talent, I give him a lot of credit for going through all that Favre crap and coming out on the other end as a Pro Bowl caliber QB. You have to respect that. I certainly wasn't sold on Rodgers 12 months ago, but consider me sold now.

Hards Alumni

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2009, 10:04:08 AM »
As a Packer fan, I would take Forte over most backs in the league in a cocaine heartbeat.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: NFC North Pissing Match
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2009, 10:05:25 AM »
WHO IS GOING TO CATCH THE BALL BOBBY WADE?  BERNARD BERRIAN?  PERCY HARVIN?

HAHAHAHA WHAT A CROCK.

I'll take the 2009 vikes over the 2005 pack any day of the week. That was the comparison being made.

Yes, I believe Sydney Rice, Berrian, Harvin and Shancoe will be enough.

 

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