MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Cheeks on January 24, 2020, 10:32:02 PM

Title: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 24, 2020, 10:32:02 PM
No idea what he was doing to have BB foul him with the game tied.  Really looking forward to hearing that one.  It better be a mea cupola of “I fooked up”
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: NCMUFan on January 24, 2020, 10:33:30 PM
Wow, hard to find words for this game.  I guess have to blame Wojo.  The rest of the team played great but Howard was so far off all game and turning the ball over but Wojo kept him jacking them up.  How much does he get paid?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Warrior1969 on January 24, 2020, 10:36:18 PM
Butler is RUINING THE SAME play for Baldwin OVER AND OVER   Change the D wojo??????   My God what are you doing??????
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Johnny B on January 24, 2020, 10:36:40 PM
Most bizzare play of the year by far. Awaiting the explanation post game
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CountryRoads on January 24, 2020, 10:36:56 PM
This question needs to be asked post game.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MU2007 on January 24, 2020, 10:43:38 PM
I had to rewind the TV at a commercial break to make sure I wasn't in the twilight zone, but sure enough there it was Wojo signaling to Bailey to foul. Would gain a ton of respect for Wojo if he just says he messed up, but can't imagine that happens.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: #UnleashDiener on January 24, 2020, 10:46:56 PM
Yes cheeks. Come to the dark side.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 24, 2020, 10:47:40 PM
A prediction:    Wojo will say he did it to make sure MU had the last shot, or some variation thereof.    Instead of letting Butler hold for the last shot, foul early, get the ball back with time to make a play.     Didn't ultimately cost MU the game.   Certainly was unusual.   
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 10:48:13 PM
A prediction:    Wojo will say he did it to make sure MU had the last shot, or some variation thereof.    Instead of letting Butler hold for the last shot, foul early, get the ball back with time to make a play.     Didn't ultimately cost MU the game.   Certainly was unusual.   

That’s brutal strategy.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 10:48:28 PM
I know I'm the only one but I don't hate that foul.  First off, Baldwin was scoring at will every possession down the stretch.  If we don't foul, we have to hope he can't do what he did the last 5 possessions (i.e. go one on one for an easy basket) and our options are OT or loss.  With the foul, even if he makes them, we get the ball back with a chance to tie or win.  I wouldn't have done it, but it was gutsy and I had no problem with it.

Markus taking contested threes with time on the clock OTOH...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: RJax55 on January 24, 2020, 10:49:04 PM
A prediction:    Wojo will say he did it to make sure MU had the last shot, or some variation thereof.    Instead of letting Butler hold for the last shot, foul early, get the ball back with time to make a play.     Didn't ultimately cost MU the game.   Certainly was unusual.   

He didn't know the score.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 10:49:21 PM
I know I'm the only one but I don't hate that foul.  First off, Baldwin was scoring at will every possession down the stretch.  If we don't foul, we have to hope he can't do what he did the last 5 possessions (i.e. go one on one for an easy basket) and our options are OT or loss.  With the foul, even if he makes them, we get the ball back with a chance to tie or win.  I wouldn't have done it, but it was gutsy and I had no problem with it.

Markus taking contested threes with time on the clock OTOH...

No that’s a terrible decision. Defend it differently. Don’t give up points.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MUBurrow on January 24, 2020, 10:50:29 PM
A prediction:    Wojo will say he did it to make sure MU had the last shot, or some variation thereof.    Instead of letting Butler hold for the last shot, foul early, get the ball back with time to make a play.     Didn't ultimately cost MU the game.   Certainly was unusual.   

If that's just him covering for Bailey, then fine.  If that's the honest to god strategy... my word.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: panda on January 24, 2020, 10:50:34 PM
No legitimate reason to put an 85% free throw shooter on the line in a tie game.

My guess is he didn’t know the score.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 24, 2020, 10:50:57 PM
No idea what he was doing to have BB foul him with the game tied.  Really looking forward to hearing that one.  It better be a mea cupola of “I fooked up”

Seems to be the norm with Wojo late in the game.  After 6 years he still can't figure it out.  Poorly coached effort at the end, resulting in another L.  That's 2x conference losses on Wojo. 

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: BLM on January 24, 2020, 10:51:12 PM
Ask Jim Valvano.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Johnny B on January 24, 2020, 10:51:13 PM
I know I'm the only one but I don't hate that foul.  First off, Baldwin was scoring at will every possession down the stretch.  If we don't foul, we have to hope he can't do what he did the last 5 possessions (i.e. go one on one for an easy basket) and our options are OT or loss.  With the foul, even if he makes them, we get the ball back with a chance to tie or win.  I wouldn't have done it, but it was gutsy and I had no problem with it.

Markus taking contested threes with time on the clock OTOH...
Are you kidding me? That is a ridiculous foul. You literally should never do that. You dont foul when the game is tied and put them on the line. Nobody says this
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: panda on January 24, 2020, 10:51:30 PM
If that's just him covering for Bailey, then fine.  If that's the honest to god strategy... my word.

He very clearly called for the foul from the sideline.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: We R Final Four on January 24, 2020, 10:51:37 PM
Most bizzare play of the year by far. Awaiting the explanation post game
No one will ask.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Retire0 on January 24, 2020, 10:52:08 PM
Ask Jim Valvano.

+1
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: RJax55 on January 24, 2020, 10:52:31 PM
If that's just him covering for Bailey, then fine.  If that's the honest to god strategy... my word.

Bailey only went for the foul when he saw Wojo calling for it.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 24, 2020, 10:53:46 PM
I know I'm the only one but I don't hate that foul.  First off, Baldwin was scoring at will every possession down the stretch.  If we don't foul, we have to hope he can't do what he did the last 5 possessions (i.e. go one on one for an easy basket) and our options are OT or loss.  With the foul, even if he makes them, we get the ball back with a chance to tie or win.  I wouldn't have done it, but it was gutsy and I had no problem with it.

Markus taking contested threes with time on the clock OTOH...

You could make this case. Get your point, yet I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coach employ that strategy in a tie game.

Definitely defies conventional wisdom...if it was intended. Or did he have a brain fart?  Based on the reaction of Bailey - he looked at Wojo as if to say you signaled me to foul...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: BLM on January 24, 2020, 10:54:46 PM
You could make this case. Get your point, yet I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coach employ that strategy in a tie game.

Definitely defies conventional wisdom...if it was intended. Or did he have a brain fart?  Based on the reaction of Bailey - he looked at Wojo as if to say you signaled me to foul...

A coach used the strategy to win a national title.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 10:56:34 PM
Are you kidding me? That is a ridiculous foul. You literally should never do that. You dont foul when the game is tied and put them on the line. Nobody says this
Were you watching the game?  They scored on 6 of their last 7 possessions.  I would not have bet on a stop there.  I have no problem with Wojo not betting on a stop there.  Besides it worked out.  If we don't foul our best outcome is OT and we got OT.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 10:59:04 PM
Were you watching the game?  They scored on 6 of their last 7 possessions.  I would not have bet on a stop there.  I have no problem with Wojo not betting on a stop there.  Besides it worked out.  If we don't foul our best outcome is OT and we got OT.

lol. Because Koby pulled a shot out of his a$$?  Get out with that sh*t. Fouling a 85% shooter is dumb. Period.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: skianth16 on January 24, 2020, 11:00:11 PM
I'm surprised this wasn't a bigger talking point for the guys calling the game. I know they try not to be critical, but they usually still offer some sort of commentary on "unique" plays/calls like that.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhiteTrash on January 24, 2020, 11:00:18 PM
Not trying to by 'NoJo'. But Wojo is still learning the game coaching part of his job. Hopefully it will get better.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Johnny B on January 24, 2020, 11:00:21 PM
Were you watching the game?  They scored on 6 of their last 7 possessions.  I would not have bet on a stop there.  I have no problem with Wojo not betting on a stop there.  Besides it worked out.  If we don't foul our best outcome is OT and we got OT.
You just dont intentionally make yourself down on the scoreboard. The odds of being tied and getting a stop to force ot or win are alot better than intentionally fouling and being down hoping to score and tie it.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Osiris on January 24, 2020, 11:00:37 PM
This is not a “two schools of thought” situation.  It’s never under any situation the right move and I’m confidant it wasn’t an intentional move made by Wojo.  My guess is he does a mea culpa and owns it.  Simply lost track of time and score.  It’s brutal but I can forgive that sooner than I can forgive not running the pick and pop with Marcus and Bailey the last 20 minutes of gametime.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 11:00:41 PM
You could make this case. Get your point, yet I don’t think I’ve ever seen a coach employ that strategy in a tie game.

Definitely defies conventional wisdom...if it was intended. Or did he have a brain fart?  Based on the reaction of Bailey - he looked at Wojo as if to say you signaled me to foul...
I never saw it before either.  Given how the game was progressing, I thought there were solid reasons to do it.  It took guts.  Don't get me wrong, I am not happy with the way Wojo coached down the stretch, but our decision to revert to hero ball with about two and a half minutes to go cost us the game, on top of our failure to counter with any kind of gimmick to slow down Baldwin.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Eldon on January 24, 2020, 11:01:24 PM
lol. Because Koby pulled a shot out of his a$$?  Get out with that sh*t. Fouling a 85% shooter is dumb. Period.

And with Bailey (having a decent game), to boot
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: muguru on January 24, 2020, 11:02:42 PM
Ben Steele
@BenSteeleMJS
·
49s
Wojo: I let the team down.  I made a mistake. Confusion on bench. I apologized to team. #mubb.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: DiaperDandy on January 24, 2020, 11:03:00 PM
A prediction:    Wojo will say he did it to make sure MU had the last shot, or some variation thereof.    Instead of letting Butler hold for the last shot, foul early, get the ball back with time to make a play.     Didn't ultimately cost MU the game.   Certainly was unusual.   
If this is his response than any reporter with half a brain would reply, “If this was truly your strategy, why didn’t you go 2 for 1 when you had the ball with 42 seconds to go...”
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 24, 2020, 11:03:26 PM
Good call on the Valvano reference.    Probably the only other time I can remember a coach doing it.   
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 11:04:03 PM
You just dont intentionally make yourself down on the scoreboard. The odds of being tied and getting a stop to force ot or win are alot better than intentionally fouling and being down hoping to score and tie it.
Based on how they were scoring at will, I would say our odds of getting a stop were significantly less than 50%.  I think our odds of scoring a basket with 20 seconds were a lot better than our odds of stopping Butler, which is why it was OK with me.  I understand it is completely unorthodox but I was actually glad he did it, because I thought we were dead even though it was tied because I personally had zero confidence with us getting a stop there.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 11:04:06 PM
Ben Steele
@BenSteeleMJS
·
49s
Wojo: I let the team down.  I made a mistake. Confusion on bench. I apologized to team. #mubb.

So there goes the “Wojo is playing 3 dimensional chess” argument.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Lazar's Headband on January 24, 2020, 11:04:38 PM
It's not that uncommon in European pro leagues.   The idea is to get the last shot and have a chance to win.  It's like a football coach choosing to go for 2 when they trail by 1.

It's a gamble.  It may not work.  As long as Wojo owns the strategy I'm fine with it.

Now, failing to make a defensive adjustment on Baldwin's ball screen play is awful.   The offensive sets down the stretch, awful.  Wojo was very bad in crunchtime.

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 11:04:47 PM
If this is his response than any reporter with half a brain would reply, “If this was truly your strategy, why didn’t you go 2 for 1 when you had the ball with 42 seconds to go...”
Now this is a great argument.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: mu03eng on January 24, 2020, 11:04:57 PM
lol. Because Koby pulled a shot out of his a$$?  Get out with that sh*t. Fouling a 85% shooter is dumb. Period.

Timeout, that was the second possession MU had after the foul. Markus jacked a 3 with 9 seconds left with MU down 1 after Baldwin missed his second FT. Ballsy call and I wouldn't have done it but it definitely could have worked
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: skianth16 on January 24, 2020, 11:05:01 PM
I never saw it before either.  Given how the game was progressing, I thought there were solid reasons to do it.  It took guts.  Don't get me wrong, I am not happy with the way Wojo coached down the stretch, but our decision to revert to hero ball with about two and a half minutes to go cost us the game, on top of our failure to counter with any kind of gimmick to slow down Baldwin.

It didn't take guts. It was a bad call. We only ended up in OT because their 85% FT shooter missed a shot and then Koby hit a prayer. I'm guessing the odds of the last 20 seconds playing out the way they did would be under 5%. The odds of us getting a stop on the last possession without the foul is much, much higher.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhiteTrash on January 24, 2020, 11:05:20 PM
Were you watching the game?  They scored on 6 of their last 7 possessions.  I would not have bet on a stop there.  I have no problem with Wojo not betting on a stop there.  Besides it worked out.  If we don't foul our best outcome is OT and we got OT.
Dumbest post of the year?

Seriously man, Wojo did not know it was a tied game. Plain and simple. It will not get him fired, so why make stupid excuses. You look foolish.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: RJax55 on January 24, 2020, 11:05:48 PM
Ben Steele
@BenSteeleMJS
·
49s
Wojo: I let the team down.  I made a mistake. Confusion on bench. I apologized to team. #mubb.

Yep. The rationalizing here on this is nuts. I do give Wojo credit for owning it. Could have made some lame excuse.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 24, 2020, 11:05:54 PM
Well, at least he owned it. 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on January 24, 2020, 11:06:05 PM
Markus was obviously leg dead as shots were short. Perfect time to decoy him and let BB and Sacar take their chances.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Boston Warrior on January 24, 2020, 11:06:24 PM
The valvano foul was so much better... he had the guy foul a freshman not the key player... he also didn’t have a good shooter foul out.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 11:06:56 PM
Timeout, that was the second possession MU had after the foul. Markus jacked a 3 with 9 seconds left with MU down 1 after Baldwin missed his second FT. Ballsy call and I wouldn't have done it but it definitely could have worked

Dude Wojo admitted he unnatural carnal knowledgeed up...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 11:07:02 PM
Dumbest post of the year?

Seriously man, Wojo did not know it was a tied game. Plain and simple. It will not get him fired, so why make stupid excuses. You look foolish.
I'm not making excuses.  Even if he did do it by mistake, I still didn't hate it.  The way we were playing defense, I am confident we lose that game in regulation if he doesn't do it.  And it did not end up hurting.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 11:07:40 PM
I'm not making excuses.  Even if he did do it by mistake, I still didn't hate it.  The way we were playing defense, I am confident we lose that game in regulation if he doesn't do it.  And it did not end up hurting.

Lol. Ok. Whatever. 🙄🙄🙄
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: skianth16 on January 24, 2020, 11:07:54 PM
It's not that uncommon in European pro leagues.   The idea is to get the last shot and have a chance to win.  It's like a football coach choosing to go for 2 when they trail by 1.

It's a gamble.  It may not work.  As long as Wojo owns the strategy I'm fine with it.

Now, failing to make a defensive adjustment on Baldwin's ball screen play is awful.   The offensive sets down the stretch, awful.  Wojo was very bad in crunchtime.

Not close at all. It's more like a football coach allowing a team to score when the game is tied, with the hopes that he gets the ball back and can score and then go for 2 to win. Wanting the ball in your hands last makes some sense, but it should never be so important that you intentionally give the other team the lead. It's a bad decision.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 24, 2020, 11:08:09 PM
It's not that uncommon in European pro leagues.   The idea is to get the last shot and have a chance to win.  It's like a football coach choosing to go for 2 when they trail by 1.

It's a gamble.  It may not work.  As long as Wojo owns the strategy I'm fine with it.

Now, failing to make a defensive adjustment on Baldwin's ball screen play is awful.   The offensive sets down the stretch, awful.  Wojo was very bad in crunchtime.

He messed up.   He owned it.      But I almost wish he had done it on purpose.    Like letting a football team have a touchdown in the last minute in order to get the ball back for your quarterback.     That would have been a helluva debate.   
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: nyg on January 24, 2020, 11:09:01 PM
Well, at least he owned it.

Well, they can stop with the Valvano comparisons now.  Mistake by the staff, a big mistake and he took the blame. 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 11:09:18 PM
Lol. Ok. Whatever. 🙄🙄🙄
So you think that we would've stopped them?  I sure don't.  They scored on just about every possession in OT too.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 11:09:36 PM
Seriously stop trying to rationalize an absolutely stupid tactical decision that even the coach realized he unnatural carnal knowledgeed up.

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 24, 2020, 11:11:03 PM
So you think that we would've stopped them?  I sure don't.  They scored on just about every possession in OT too.


Yes. I will always bet on my team doing what they need to do versus giving points to the opponent.

Yours is a defeatist mindset.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 24, 2020, 11:11:14 PM
Ben Steele
@BenSteeleMJS
·
49s
Wojo: I let the team down.  I made a mistake. Confusion on bench. I apologized to team. #mubb.

I’m at least happy he owned up to it as that was the ONLY defense he had.

Markus was a chucker tonight, haven’t seen that much this year.  Shame...a game we should have won.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: skianth16 on January 24, 2020, 11:11:20 PM
He messed up.   He owned it.      But I almost wish he had done it on purpose.    Like letting a football team have a touchdown in the last minute in order to get the ball back for your quarterback.     That would have been a helluva debate.

That doesn't happen in tied football games, though. That only happens when a team is already winning and the opponent is close to the endzone.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: We R Final Four on January 24, 2020, 11:13:15 PM
Well, at least he owned it.
Congrats Tower, I know that hurt a little bit.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhiteTrash on January 24, 2020, 11:13:20 PM
I'm not making excuses.  Even if he did do it by mistake, I still didn't hate it.  The way we were playing defense, I am confident we lose that game in regulation if he doesn't do it.  And it did not end up hurting.
Umm, Ok. You don't hate the $2.1MM per year coach making a mistake of what the score of the game was?

You and I (and most MU fans) have different expectations of the head coach. If he can keep score, that would help.
 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MDMU04 on January 24, 2020, 11:13:53 PM
A good follow up would have been “what was the confusion on the bench?”

Pretty bad time to have a collective brain fart.

Edit: Tweets say he didn’t know the score. Thought they were down two.

Ouch.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 24, 2020, 11:15:07 PM
Seriously stop trying to rationalize an absolutely stupid tactical decision that even the coach realized he unnatural carnal knowledgeed up.
I didn't think Wojo called for it when it happened.  I thought Bailey didn't know the score and did it on his own.  I am just saying I still didn't hate it, because I am very confident they score with little time on the clock and we lose if we don't foul.  At least this way we had a chance to win.  I get it, you all don't agree.  The real indictment of Wojo in my stance is that he could not formulate a defense to stop Baldwin in the closing minutes other than hoping he'd miss, so we were going to lose if we didn't foul.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: skianth16 on January 24, 2020, 11:16:04 PM
I’m at least happy he owned up to it as that was the ONLY defense he had.

Markus was a chucker tonight, haven’t seen that much this year.  Shame...a game we should have won.

Lavin and crew were talking about this in the postgame. Saying that there were noticeable situations where Markus was taking bad shots with teammates wide open and calling for the ball.

It's easier to call out after a loss, of course, but those kinds of plays could be the difference between a win and a loss in a few more games this year. If he can get out of the tunnel vision just a little bit more, it will gives us some more opportunities. He's having a helluva year, but this one little improvement could be big for the team.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 24, 2020, 11:16:20 PM
I still can’t believe MU didn’t go 2 for 1 with 40 plus seconds left and the ball.

That end of game strategy was so bad. I say this in the NFL threads all the time...you have a collective staff earning millions of dollars. Basic game strategy should not be a constant challenge. Game Score. Time Left. Situation.

So dumb.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Eldon on January 24, 2020, 11:16:48 PM
He messed up.   He owned it.      But I almost wish he had done it on purpose.    Like letting a football team have a touchdown in the last minute in order to get the ball back for your quarterback.     That would have been a helluva debate.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/KtbPylMXJ6IPS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 24, 2020, 11:18:46 PM
Congrats Tower, I know that hurt a little bit.

Not at all.   I was flummoxed at the time, included it in my postgame, engaged in some out-there speculation, and ultimately had my question answered.     No pain. 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Lazar's Headband on January 24, 2020, 11:20:33 PM
He messed up.   He owned it.      But I almost wish he had done it on purpose.    Like letting a football team have a touchdown in the last minute in order to get the ball back for your quarterback.     That would have been a helluva debate.

Yep, seeing that now.  Just a lousy job down the stretch all around.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: BLM on January 24, 2020, 11:21:19 PM
I don’t know a single coach/team/program that uses the 2 for 1 in college basketball. The clock doesn’t stop after a made basket in college basketball like it does in the NBA in the last minute (or 2 minutes?). Makes it almost impossible to go 2 for 1, especially with 41 seconds left. So you’re just going to rush a shot just to not get the ball back anyways. 41 seconds left, you hoist it at the earliest with 39 seconds left. You probably miss a bad look if you’re going that fast, so they get the rebound with 37 seconds left. They run the clock down and shoot it with 10 seconds left. If they don’t score you need to rebound and get it down court for a shot very quick. If they score you’re using a TO to stop the clock. They then set their D and you need a bucket going the full court.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Osiris on January 24, 2020, 11:21:25 PM
It's not that uncommon in European pro leagues....

Jesus. If this is true no wonder we keep having to bail them out.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MUfan12 on January 24, 2020, 11:23:36 PM
The clock doesn’t stop after a made basket in college basketball like it does in the NBA in the last minute (or 2 minutes?). Makes it almost impossible to go 2 for 1, especially with 41 seconds left.

It absolutely does in the last minute of regulation.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 24, 2020, 11:26:19 PM
I don’t know a single coach/team/program that uses the 2 for 1 in college basketball. The clock doesn’t stop after a made basket in college basketball like it does in the NBA in the last minute (or 2 minutes?). Makes it almost impossible to go 2 for 1, especially with 41 seconds left. So you’re just going to rush a shot just to not get the ball back anyways. 41 seconds left, you hoist it at the earliest with 39 seconds left. You probably miss a bad look if you’re going that fast, so they get the rebound with 37 seconds left. They run the clock down and shoot it with 10 seconds left. If they don’t score you need to rebound and get it down court for a shot very quick. If they score you’re using a TO to stop the clock. They then set their D and you need a bucket going the full court.

The clock stops in the last minute on a make.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 24, 2020, 11:27:26 PM
Yep. The rationalizing here on this is nuts. I do give Wojo credit for owning it. Could have made some lame excuse.

Agree. Yet a pretty critical situation and game to have a brain fart.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: BLM on January 24, 2020, 11:28:52 PM
The clock stops in the last minute on a make.

Then Butler had some home cooking on the clock tonight. Koby let the ball roll up the court inside a minute tonight but the clock was running anyway.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: DiaperDandy on January 24, 2020, 11:29:50 PM
I don’t know a single coach/team/program that uses the 2 for 1 in college basketball. The clock doesn’t stop after a made basket in college basketball like it does in the NBA in the last minute (or 2 minutes?). Makes it almost impossible to go 2 for 1, especially with 41 seconds left. So you’re just going to rush a shot just to not get the ball back anyways. 41 seconds left, you hoist it at the earliest with 39 seconds left. You probably miss a bad look if you’re going that fast, so they get the rebound with 37 seconds left. They run the clock down and shoot it with 10 seconds left. If they don’t score you need to rebound and get it down court for a shot very quick. If they score you’re using a TO to stop the clock. They then set their D and you need a bucket going the full court.

The clock stops in the last minute of the second half after a made basket...not sure what you are talking about that it keeps running...that only happens in the first half.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: BLM on January 24, 2020, 11:30:44 PM
The clock stops in the last minute of the second half after a made basket...not sure what you are talking about that it keeps running...that only happens in the first half.

Certainly happened in OT tonight when Koby let the ball roll up the court but the clock continued to run.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 24, 2020, 11:31:28 PM
Umm, Ok. You don't hate the $2.1MM per year coach making a mistake of what the score of the game was?

You and I (and most MU fans) have different expectations of the head coach. If he can keep score, that would help.

But hey..... Wojo looks great at a banquet and has a soothing voice.  He's got half the people here enchanted....

I want my coach to the know the score rather than tell me how good his recruiting class is next year.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: TSmith34 on January 24, 2020, 11:32:10 PM
Lavin and crew were talking about this in the postgame. Saying that there were noticeable situations where Markus was taking bad shots with teammates wide open and calling for the ball.

It's easier to call out after a loss, of course, but those kinds of plays could be the difference between a win and a loss in a few more games this year. If he can get out of the tunnel vision just a little bit more, it will gives us some more opportunities. He's having a helluva year, but this one little improvement could be big for the team.
I agree.  I said in another thread, we saw 3 games and 37 minutes of beautiful team ball, where Markus was still Stud of the Game but everyone was getting involved and contributing.  That went out the window in the last three minutes of this one with disastrous results.

We give Markus his proper accolades when he plays well, it is fair to point out when he costs us the game as well.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhiteTrash on January 24, 2020, 11:37:10 PM
I agree.  I said in another thread, we saw 3 games and 37 minutes of beautiful team ball, where Markus was still Stud of the Game but everyone was getting involved and contributing.  That went out the window in the last three minutes of this one with disastrous results.

We give Markus his proper accolades when he plays well, it is fair to point out when he costs us the game as well.
Markus is a great guy and has done awesome things at MU. That said, tonight he cost us a win. Strange to say and very rare to say but IMO he  lost the game.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 24, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
Markus is a great guy and has done awesome things at MU. That said, tonight he cost us a win. Strange to say and very rare to say but IMO he  lost the game.

He helped lose the Providence game as well by dribbling into double teams 4 different times resulting in turnovers.......

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Johnny B on January 24, 2020, 11:43:45 PM
He helped lose the Providence game as well by dribbling into double teams 4 different times resulting in turnovers.......
Are you the same guy with the other mike dean accounts
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: skianth16 on January 24, 2020, 11:45:16 PM
Per Ben Steele, Wojo says this falls on him - "When you're the leader of a group or an organization, you hold your kids accountable but the main person you need to hold accountable is me."

And while that's the right thing to say, it holds no weight, because nothing will happen. If a player makes a bad play, he can get benched or lose minutes. If an assistant puts together a bad scouting report, he could be demoted or fired. But what happens when the head coach, who already signed his contract extension, screws up? I'm not saying he should lose his job over this. I'm just saying that his words are empty because nothing will happen. There's no actual accountability.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 24, 2020, 11:46:12 PM
Are you the same guy with the other mike dean accounts

No, I'm not.  I have one account.  Don't tell me you're another Pro Wojo guy who thinks he's a great coach.  Tonight just underlines what I've said before out of the guy:  He doesn't know how to coach and costs us games.  MU can do better than this.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: AlumKCof93 on January 24, 2020, 11:46:56 PM
There’s just no excuse for that foul.

- a tie game with 20 seconds left
- intentionally foul their best player
- an 85% ft shooter
- a player who scored all their points down the stretch

How can Wojo not know the score?  They  just had a timeout.  What did they discuss?  Wojo said there was confusion in the huddle - how can that be?  There are scoreboards. 

Marquette deserves better than this.  Wojo needs to be better than this, as does his staff.  The players played their hearts out tonight.  Coaching let them down and that’s inexcusable.

I’m not close to fire Wojo, but he needs to make coaching changes so this doesn’t happen.  They need experienced coach who is calm in final minutes and put players in best position to win.  That did not happen tonight.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Johnny B on January 24, 2020, 11:49:58 PM
No, I'm not.  I have one account.  Don't tell me you're another Pro Wojo guy who thinks he's a great coach.  Tonight just underlines what I've said before out of the guy:  He doesn't know how to coach and costs us games.  MU can do better than this.
ok...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 24, 2020, 11:51:06 PM
There’s just no excuse for that foul.

- a tie game with 20 seconds left
- intentionally foul their best player
- an 85% ft shooter
- a player who scored all their points down the stretch

How can Wojo not know the score?  They  just had a timeout.  What did they discuss?  Wojo said there was confusion in the huddle - how can that be?  There are scoreboards. 

Marquette deserves better than this.  Wojo needs to be better than this, as does his staff.  The players played their hearts out tonight.  Coaching let them down and that’s inexcusable.

I’m not close to fire Wojo, but he needs to make coaching changes so this doesn’t happen.  They need experienced coach who is calm in final minutes and put players in best position to win.  That did not happen tonight.

Any chance he was taking the heat for a brain fart by Bailey?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Johnny B on January 24, 2020, 11:51:07 PM
I dont think hes great but I'm not on the fire wojo wagon yet
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 25, 2020, 12:00:43 AM
Per Ben Steele, Wojo says this falls on him - "When you're the leader of a group or an organization, you hold your kids accountable but the main person you need to hold accountable is me."

And while that's the right thing to say, it holds no weight, because nothing will happen. If a player makes a bad play, he can get benched or lose minutes. If an assistant puts together a bad scouting report, he could be demoted or fired. But what happens when the head coach, who already signed his contract extension, screws up? I'm not saying he should lose his job over this. I'm just saying that his words are empty because nothing will happen. There's no actual accountability.

So should he have said nothing and not taken responsibility?  What is your answer to how he should have handled it?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 25, 2020, 12:03:22 AM
Per Ben Steele, Wojo says this falls on him - "When you're the leader of a group or an organization, you hold your kids accountable but the main person you need to hold accountable is me."

And while that's the right thing to say, it holds no weight, because nothing will happen. If a player makes a bad play, he can get benched or lose minutes. If an assistant puts together a bad scouting report, he could be demoted or fired. But what happens when the head coach, who already signed his contract extension, screws up? I'm not saying he should lose his job over this. I'm just saying that his words are empty because nothing will happen. There's no actual accountability.

True. But. I do respect him for owning it. Mistakes do happen...and in this case we got lucky and it ultimately didn’t cost us the game. The bigger coaching mistake was not changing defensive strategy on Baldwin - to either force him left, or go zone.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 25, 2020, 12:07:06 AM
So should he have said nothing and not taken responsibility?  What is your answer to how he should have handled it?

There's nothing he can say.  He's inept.  And You're comfy with this guy.  Just think if there's a similar situation in a tourney game.......  I mean how many times does it take?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CountryRoads on January 25, 2020, 12:08:09 AM
True. But. I do respect him for owning it. Mistakes do happen...and in this case we got lucky and it ultimately didn’t cost us the game. The bigger coaching mistake was not changing defensive strategy on Baldwin - to either force him left, or go zone.

MU is like 4/4 in getting stops with that zone at the end of games with 3 or so turnovers. I definitely would have liked to see that when it was clear they weren’t getting stops.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: BM1090 on January 25, 2020, 12:10:31 AM
There's nothing he can say.  He's inept.  And You're comfy with this guy.  Just think if there's a similar situation in a tourney game.......  I mean how many times does it take?

35 posts tonight and none since January 10th. Sigh.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 25, 2020, 12:12:51 AM
35 posts tonight and none since January 10th. Sigh.

Yeah, the Pro Wojo contingent couldn't handle my observational data.  So, due to groupthink, they tried to oust the alpha and got me banned for 2 weeks.  Funny thing is, much of what i said before played out tonight. 

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: 79Warrior on January 25, 2020, 12:56:51 AM
Lavin and crew were talking about this in the postgame. Saying that there were noticeable situations where Markus was taking bad shots with teammates wide open and calling for the ball.

It's easier to call out after a loss, of course, but those kinds of plays could be the difference between a win and a loss in a few more games this year. If he can get out of the tunnel vision just a little bit more, it will gives us some more opportunities. He's having a helluva year, but this one little improvement could be big for the team.

ESPN said most missed threes by a player in BE  since 2009
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Billy Hoyle on January 25, 2020, 01:14:11 AM
There’s just no excuse for that foul.

- a tie game with 20 seconds left
- intentionally foul their best player
- an 85% ft shooter
- a player who scored all their points down the stretch

How can Wojo not know the score? They  just had a timeout.  What did they discuss?  Wojo said there was confusion in the huddle - how can that be?  There are scoreboards. 

Marquette deserves better than this.  Wojo needs to be better than this, as does his staff.  The players played their hearts out tonight.  Coaching let them down and that’s inexcusable.

I’m not close to fire Wojo, but he needs to make coaching changes so this doesn’t happen.  They need experienced coach who is calm in final minutes and put players in best position to win.  That did not happen tonight.

That’s the job of an assistant or the DOBO to track that and inform Wojo. Well, it certainly couldn’t be Saint Stan so it must have been someone else.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on January 25, 2020, 01:40:52 AM
ESPN said most missed threes by a player in BE  since 2009
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE MAD AT! NOT WOJO!

Pass the ball Markus!!!
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on January 25, 2020, 01:44:50 AM
ESPN said most missed threes by a player in BE  since 2009
Well well well....I went to sleep at halftime. I am glad I did not watch the entire game. But if this went down and I saw that I would have been livid.

This is a major issue...get others involved.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: mu.n8ball on January 25, 2020, 03:16:29 AM
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE MAD AT! NOT WOJO!

Pass the ball Markus!!!

this is where I fall. Markus has won us many games, and lost us some too including this one. I'm most disappointed that as Markus was cooling off, Koby and then Sacar were hitting, but instead of looking to draw defensive attention and dish to guys who were hitting, he tried to put on the Markus show. Like dude, we know you're the best shooter in the building, an all American, big east player of the year, etc... it's fine if you don't have it tonight. Even the best NBA shooters have off nights. his teammates had his back, and we were so close to a well deserved, impactful team win. Tunnel vision from the senior was a big letdown. Markus knows better than that, or at least he should. Trust your teammates.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WarriorFan on January 25, 2020, 03:53:47 AM
First of all, there are game situations where that foul is a real option.   Fouling the hottest player when he’s on a tear and is an 85% free throw shooter is not one of them.

If I was an opposing coach for example, had a team with 4 very good shooters and shoot 43% from 3, I’d foul Sacar or Jamal or Greg or any of the bigs when tied with 20 secs left.  Even with 30,  but not more.

It’s definitely counter intuitive but if they make one FT you win with a two and if they make both you can tie or win.  You eliminate the chance they make a 3 thereby giving you only one way to tie.

What we all know now is that there was no vision, no strategy, no preparation for this situation and the whole staff blew it by not knowing time and score.

Shameful.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 25, 2020, 05:04:23 AM
I’m at least happy he owned up to it as that was the ONLY defense he had.

Markus was a chucker tonight, haven’t seen that much this year.  Shame...a game we should have won.
I agree with this assessment.

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: willie warrior on January 25, 2020, 05:55:57 AM
A prediction:    Wojo will say he did it to make sure MU had the last shot, or some variation thereof.    Instead of letting Butler hold for the last shot, foul early, get the ball back with time to make a play.     Didn't ultimately cost MU the game.   Certainly was unusual.   
No as usual, your lust for Wojo has you wrong. It was not unusual, it was stupid. Someday you will wake up and realize the guy cant coach.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: warriors141 on January 25, 2020, 07:16:15 AM
It was a bad, bad decision, but still didn't cost us the game. Markus' chucking and turnovers, plus no ability whatsoever to find a way to stop baldwin did
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: hairy worthen on January 25, 2020, 08:04:27 AM

Yes. I will always bet on my team doing what they need to do versus giving points to the opponent.

Yours is a defeatist mindset.
This exactly. You are conceding that you cant stop your opponent. How about playing some damn defense or devising a way to stop the guy. If you lose because he beats your best effort.  ok.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 25, 2020, 08:06:34 AM
MU is like 4/4 in getting stops with that zone at the end of games with 3 or so turnovers. I definitely would have liked to see that when it was clear they weren’t getting stops.

Totally. Very strange that this wasn't employed with Theo sitting in the paint and Sacar/Bailey/Cain/McEwen on the perimeter for at least a few possessions. All of those guys brought it on D yesterday
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: mileskishnish72 on January 25, 2020, 08:14:06 AM


How can Wojo not know the score?  They  just had a timeout.  What did they discuss?  Wojo said there was confusion in the huddle - how can that be?  There are scoreboards. 

Marquette deserves better than this.  Wojo needs to be better than this, as does his staff.  The players played their hearts out tonight.  Coaching let them down and that’s inexcusable.



There are a lot of things to like about Wojo but after six years watching games play out like this is beyond disappointing.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: moomoo on January 25, 2020, 08:23:04 AM
Steve “JR Smith” Wojciechowski

Every scooper felt like Lebron.

Know the score man.

So disappointing.

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 25, 2020, 08:27:44 AM
This exactly. You are conceding that you cant stop your opponent. How about playing some damn defense or devising a way to stop the guy. If you lose because he beats your best effort.  ok.
The point is to win the game.  If he was going to devise a different defense he would have had to have done it already (and I agree he should have), but by then it was too late.  Who gives a crap that fouling meant we were conceding that we couldn't stop them?  We hadn't been stopping for a long stretch whether we conceded it or not and there was no reason to think we would stop them on that possession.

He/we f'd up the endgame a half dozen ways, and that fact that he called for the foul because he did not know the score is just brutal.  When it first happened, I figured that Bailey screwed up, then when I read on the board that Wojo called for it, I thought that it was a good gamble.  When I read that Wojo called for it because he didn't know the score, I thought it was a brutal but happy accident.  It worked by the way.  We got to OT, which was best case scenario if not fouling.  If we ran some semblance of an offense instead of chucking up a contested three with 10 seconds left, we could have won the game right there.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: hairy worthen on January 25, 2020, 08:34:09 AM
The point is to win the game.  If he was going to devise a different defense he would have had to have done it already (and I agree he should have), but by then it was too late.  Who gives a crap that fouling meant we were conceding that we couldn't stop them?  We hadn't been stopping for a long stretch whether we conceded it or not and there was no reason to think we would stop them on that possession.

He/we f'd up the endgame a half dozen ways, and that fact that he called for the foul because he did not know the score is just brutal.  When it first happened, I figured that Bailey screwed up, then when I read on the board that Wojo called for it, I thought that it was a good gamble.  When I read that Wojo called for it because he didn't know the score, I thought it was a brutal but happy accident.  It worked by the way.  We got to OT, which was best case scenario if not fouling.  If we ran some semblance of an offense instead of chucking up a contested three with 10 seconds left, we could have won the game right there.
It's a bad decision. You may think that it was sound strategy as a fan, as a coach you don't make that call. It sends the message to the team that the coach has no confidence in them.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MUDPT on January 25, 2020, 08:43:45 AM
Can’t believe it got to the 5th page to refer to this: https://kenpom.com/blog/studying-whether-to-foul-when-tied-part-3/

Given a 30% chance to win, MU should have fouled a 78.7% foul shooter or less. Baldwin was not. Ken tweeted about it during the game.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: CTWarrior on January 25, 2020, 08:53:14 AM
It's a bad decision. You may think that it was sound strategy as a fan, as a coach you don't make that call. It sends the message to the team that the coach has no confidence in them.
So, lose the game to show the team you have confidence in them?  You could spin it to show that you had confidence in the offense to win the game. 

At any rate the point was moot, because what Wojo did by admitting a gaffe after the game was the worst of all things.  He showed the team he didn't know what he was doing.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 25, 2020, 08:57:11 AM
Wojo f'd up.   He owned it.   
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhiteTrash on January 25, 2020, 09:03:57 AM
Wojo f'd up.   He owned it.
I'm glad he owned it. Maybe,  just maybe, the silver lining is Wojo better prepares himself and is more focused on the games in the future.  He owes that to his players.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 25, 2020, 09:08:41 AM
There's nothing he can say.  He's inept.  And You're comfy with this guy.  Just think if there's a similar situation in a tourney game.......  I mean how many times does it take?

You have been on vacation the last three games until tonight...you are nothing but a troll
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: hairy worthen on January 25, 2020, 09:10:22 AM
So, lose the game to show the team you have confidence in them?  You could spin it to show that you had confidence in the offense to win the game. 

At any rate the point was moot, because what Wojo did by admitting a gaffe after the game was the worst of all things.  He showed the team he didn't know what he was doing.
To your first sentence. Yes. He should be trying to build a long term winning culture. To you last point I agree. If he just fook'd up then that's ever worse. At least he owned it
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 25, 2020, 09:14:27 AM
You have been on vacation the last three games until tonight...you are nothing but a troll

If you read my posts they all call out the weaknesses that need to be corrected. 

Vacay? - More like the Pro Wojers tried to get me banned for no specific reason other than I tell it how it is.

Wojo has lost the team 2x conference games this year already, what is your answer for that?

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 25, 2020, 09:40:57 AM
Steve “JR Smith” Wojciechowski

Every scooper felt like Lebron.

Know the score man.

So disappointing.

Thanks for the laugh.

https://tenor.com/YcwD.gif
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 25, 2020, 09:46:26 AM
Can’t believe it got to the 5th page to refer to this: https://kenpom.com/blog/studying-whether-to-foul-when-tied-part-3/

Given a 30% chance to win, MU should have fouled a 78.7% foul shooter or less. Baldwin was not. Ken tweeted about it during the game.

Nice find.  Thanks for sharing.  Can we hire KenPom? (Joke)  But wonder if we have a data/statistics scientist working with the program?  Progressive NFL teams now have one, and they are using the data to decide when to go for 4th downs to increase win probabilities.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: 79Warrior on January 25, 2020, 10:00:21 AM
It was a bad, bad decision, but still didn't cost us the game. Markus' chucking and turnovers, plus no ability whatsoever to find a way to stop baldwin did

I agree. Markus has provided many great moments for MU fans, but hero ball cost us the game last night. An a senior all-american , he should recognize when he is off and get the ball to the guys with the hot hand. Sacar, BB and even Koby were hot. Markus was a big liability down the stretch last night.

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 25, 2020, 10:32:56 AM
Prior to Markus getting clocked at the 15:44 mark, he had 24 points and 6 assists in 24 minutes and was playing a solid game.    The next 12 minutes or so, he didn't force much.   He missed shots, but they were in the flow.    Sacar and Bailey scored a lot in this stretch.    For some reason, with 3 minutes to go, he decided to go hero.  Whether he took it on himself or Wojo told him to, it didn't work.    I have very few complaints about Markus, the team, or coaching decisions, through the first 37 minutes.   
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Osiris on January 25, 2020, 10:39:12 AM
Nice find.  Thanks for sharing.  Can we hire KenPom? (Joke)  But wonder if we have a data/statistics scientist working with the program?  Progressive NFL teams now have one, and they are using the data to decide when to go for 4th downs to increase win probabilities.

While this is true it’s not employed because there’s evidence that it increases your chances of winning, it’s employed to cover one’s ass.

No more relevant statistics to apply than those born from this game itself.  MU scored a bucket on 34.9% of its possessions.  If Andre Drummond was bringing the ball up, you don’t foul.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 25, 2020, 10:45:14 AM
I did not see the game but reading this thread I have to ask:

1) if the defense was getting beat consistently, why no adjustments?, and;
2) is it really believable that in year six, Wojo still gets slack for "still learning" what to do at the end of a game?  Should that really be the case at this point?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: hairy worthen on January 25, 2020, 10:48:18 AM
Prior to Markus getting clocked at the 15:44 mark, he had 24 points and 6 assists in 24 minutes and was playing a solid game.    The next 12 minutes or so, he didn't force much.   He missed shots, but they were in the flow.    Sacar and Bailey scored a lot in this stretch.    For some reason, with 3 minutes to go, he decided to go hero.  Whether he took it on himself or Wojo told him to, it didn't work.    I have very few complaints about Markus, the team, or coaching decisions, through the first 37 minutes.   
So for 12 minutes after he hit his head he played ok. The hit in the head somehow affected him only for the last 3 minutes. Ok
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Eldon on January 25, 2020, 10:52:17 AM
Nice find.  Thanks for sharing.  Can we hire KenPom? (Joke)  But wonder if we have a data/statistics scientist working with the program?  Progressive NFL teams now have one, and they are using the data to decide when to go for 4th downs to increase win probabilities.

You can only take this so far.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jp7xb3/moreyball-goodharts-law-and-the-limits-of-analytics
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: tower912 on January 25, 2020, 11:13:22 AM
So for 12 minutes after he hit his head he played ok. The hit in the head somehow affected him only for the last 3 minutes. Ok
6-14 prior, 2-13 after.   He didn't force anything until the last 3 minutes.    And then, yeah, he stunk.   
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: NickelDimer on January 25, 2020, 02:08:42 PM
It’s a mistake that can’t be made. Ever. Under any circumstances. Great that he owned it. He’s a man of integrity. He also continues to show he’s a very mediocre coach.

Our best hope at this point is he assembles enough talent that they don’t require great coaching to be successful.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Markusquette on January 25, 2020, 02:16:45 PM
Yep. The rationalizing here on this is nuts. I do give Wojo credit for owning it. Could have made some lame excuse.

Plus the loss came aftert that foul. The unintentional intentional foul ended up helping MU get to OT. The problem was Markus was gassed and playing too much hero ball. Wonder if his injury affected him more than we think.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on January 25, 2020, 02:27:17 PM
If a player score 20 consecutive points from virtually the same spot why doesn't somebody make an adjustment and keep him off that place? Kept waiting for a zone to mix them up for a few plays.
reminds me of  the Stanford game where Lopez basically camped out below the basket and tossed in shot after shot and we let him park there uncontested. Still rankles when I think about it.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: TheyWereCones on January 25, 2020, 02:42:18 PM
Prior to Markus getting clocked at the 15:44 mark, he had 24 points and 6 assists in 24 minutes and was playing a solid game.    The next 12 minutes or so, he didn't force much.   He missed shots, but they were in the flow.    Sacar and Bailey scored a lot in this stretch.    For some reason, with 3 minutes to go, he decided to go hero.  Whether he took it on himself or Wojo told him to, it didn't work.    I have very few complaints about Markus, the team, or coaching decisions, through the first 37 minutes.   

Spot on.  No issues with the other 37 minutes on offense even when Howard was off.  Just a very, very poor last 3 minutes.  On defense, that's another story as I thought they should have mixed it up against Baldwin.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 25, 2020, 02:44:55 PM
If a player score 20 consecutive points from virtually the same spot why doesn't somebody make an adjustment and keep him off that place? Kept waiting for a zone to mix them up for a few plays.
reminds me of  the Stanford game where Lopez basically camped out below the basket and tossed in shot after shot and we let him park there uncontested. Still rankles when I think about it.

Wojo should have gone into a 3-2 Zone to challenge.  Otherwise he didn't add any wrinkles at all which is very disturbing.

As far as Lopez goes, not much you can do when the tallest player on the team is 6 inches shorter than Lopez.  If MU had a natural big man then, they would have been very difficult to beat.  Only lost that game by a point I believe while playing against 2x 7 footers. 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Silent Verbal on January 25, 2020, 02:48:45 PM
Ask Jim Valvano.

Coach K, Jay Wright, Dean Smith, Rick Majerus, and now Jim Valvano.  If Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll eventually be compared to every coach in the Hall of Fame.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: lawdog77 on January 25, 2020, 03:29:47 PM
ESPN said most missed threes by a player in BE  since 2009
Such an odd stat to have scrolling at the bottom. Conspiracy theorists probably think they put there to take away from his NPOY campaign.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MDMU04 on January 25, 2020, 03:57:59 PM
Wojo should have gone into a 3-2 Zone to challenge.  Otherwise he didn't add any wrinkles at all which is very disturbing.

As far as Lopez goes, not much you can do when the tallest player on the team is 6 inches shorter than Lopez.  If MU had a natural big man then, they would have been very difficult to beat.  Only lost that game by a point I believe while playing against 2x 7 footers.

They didn’t even need to go to a zone to adjust. Butler’s only offensive play was a high ball screen iso with Baldwin driving to the right. They could have double teamed him, set up a half court trap and doubled before the screen was set up, switched defenders on the ball screen, or ran the defender above the screen and forced Baldwin’s drive farther out towards the sideline.

They didn’t do a single one of these things.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: 94Warrior on January 25, 2020, 04:00:24 PM
I didn't think Wojo called for it when it happened.  I thought Bailey didn't know the score and did it on his own.  I am just saying I still didn't hate it, because I am very confident they score with little time on the clock and we lose if we don't foul.  At least this way we had a chance to win.  I get it, you all don't agree.  The real indictment of Wojo in my stance is that he could not formulate a defense to stop Baldwin in the closing minutes other than hoping he'd miss, so we were going to lose if we didn't foul.

We got it the first time. 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: 94Warrior on January 25, 2020, 04:07:13 PM
I still can’t believe MU didn’t go 2 for 1 with 40 plus seconds left and the ball.

That end of game strategy was so bad. I say this in the NFL threads all the time...you have a collective staff earning millions of dollars. Basic game strategy should not be a constant challenge. Game Score. Time Left. Situation.

So dumb.

This is where I am at.  Unbelievably poor job by the coaching staff in crunch time (again).  We need better.

And, not that it make me feel any better, but Butler not fouling Koby as he crossed half court was a gift thanks to Butler's incompetence.  A lot of highly paid coaches choke way more than they should, with no consequence.

Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: 94Warrior on January 25, 2020, 04:07:55 PM
Markus is a great guy and has done awesome things at MU. That said, tonight he cost us a win. Strange to say and very rare to say but IMO he  lost the game.

Can we subtract a SOTG from his total?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MU82 on January 25, 2020, 04:14:32 PM
At any rate the point was moot, because what Wojo did by admitting a gaffe after the game was the worst of all things.  He showed the team he didn't know what he was doing.

Disagree.

When I played and when my kids played, I had respect for coaches who admitted mistakes. And as a coach myself now, I have had two occasions on which I admitted to mistakes. I genuinely think it gave me credibility -- we're human, and we all make mistakes -- brought the team together and made us better. After one of those admissions, we went on to win the league title; after the other, we got to the title game.

Having said all that ...

It was a bad mistake by Wojo.

Even worse was letting Baldwin get to the same spot on the floor time and time again. It was disappointing to lose a game we had
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 25, 2020, 05:12:11 PM
Coach K, Jay Wright, Dean Smith, Rick Majerus, and now Jim Valvano.  If Wojo’s here long enough, he’ll eventually be compared to every coach in the Hall of Fame.

As in "Wojo couldn't carry the jock of Coach K, Jay Wright, Dean Smith, Rick Majerus, and Jim Valvano."?
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 25, 2020, 05:19:50 PM
As in "Wojo couldn't carry the jock of Coach K, Jay Wright, Dean Smith, Rick Majerus, and Jim Valvano."?

He can carryover 2 imaginary points though.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MUDPT on January 25, 2020, 06:26:17 PM
USF fouled BYU on purpose UP 2 points today. Dude missed the front end and they won...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2020, 06:32:08 PM
USF fouled BYU on purpose UP 2 points today. Dude missed the front end and they won...

Cool.

But of course Wojo didn’t do this as part of some grand strategy. He did it because he forgot the score.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: muguru on January 25, 2020, 06:35:47 PM
USF fouled BYU on purpose UP 2 points today. Dude missed the front end and they won...

In this case I agree with the strategy..Childs is injured, and the worst thing that happens is they tie it(it was a one and one) and you get the ball last with a chance to win it or go OT.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Aircraftcarrier on January 26, 2020, 10:23:45 AM
So Wojo said the last time he looked MU was down by two.You mean he didn't look at scoreboard the whole second half?MU was not behind the whole second half until he decided to foul and give Butler the lead.His defense philosophy is a another topic.Change defenses or double Baldwin and get the ball out of his hands.Make someone else beat you.Elementary.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: cheebs09 on January 26, 2020, 10:29:01 AM
So Wojo said the last time he looked they were down by two.You mean he didn't look at scoreboard the whole second half?MU was not behind the whole second half.

Also, what was discussed in that timeout as far as defense? It didn’t come up that if we score, this is our defense? If we don’t, this is the plan? I’d hope a player or assistant would have caught Wojo thinking we were down.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Afroman on January 26, 2020, 10:45:59 AM
I haven't seen this brought up much since the end of the game. What exactly are the roles of the half-dozen assistant coaches during the game? I certainly don't give those guys a free pass here. Plenty of blame to go around.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: HutchwasClutch on January 26, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
So Wojo said the last time he looked MU was down by two.You mean he didn't look at scoreboard the whole second half?MU was not behind the whole second half until he decided to foul and give Butler the lead.His defense philosophy is a another topic.Change defenses or double Baldwin and get the ball out of his hands.Make someone else beat you.Elementary.

Outstanding points.  Lost in everything is all Butler was doing to get Baldwin most, maybe all of his shots, was setting him a high screen. And Wojo was just flummoxed by that sophisticated offense. 

But hey, no reason for concern, Wojo is the best we can do, etc. 
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 26, 2020, 12:49:39 PM
Outstanding points.  Lost in everything is all Butler was doing to get Baldwin most, maybe all of his shots, was setting him a high screen. And Wojo was just flummoxed by that sophisticated offense. 

But hey, no reason for concern, Wojo is the best we can do, etc.

False, rewatch
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: HutchwasClutch on January 26, 2020, 01:06:45 PM
False, rewatch

 It is accurate, especially in overtime

By the way, how you doing on examples of great coaches who at one point in their career forgot the score.  I’m sure you’re further along than last night, when Gruber losing a timeout was the “best” and only example you could muster.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Slick on January 26, 2020, 01:16:37 PM
As bad as Wojo's decision was, I have more respect for him admitting the mistake rather than coming up with a lame excuse.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 26, 2020, 01:24:38 PM
As bad as Wojo's decision was, I have more respect for him admitting the mistake rather than coming up with a lame excuse.

This. Crean would have thrown up some pr crap to confuse his bad decisions and Buzz would have gone into full hunker down mode. Both also made plenty of in-game errors.

That said, especially for an emotional game coach like Wojo who is dug in on his systems, this is on his staff for not setting this up in the huddle right before on situationals. It’s an opportunity improvement area, and honestly owning up to those mistakes is critical for change.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: keefe on January 26, 2020, 01:27:29 PM
No one will ask.

No one asked because we lost. But in the context of an abysmal multi-faceted meltdown a head scratching foul is just a cog in a much bigger gear.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MU82 on January 26, 2020, 02:29:05 PM
No one asked because we lost. But in the context of an abysmal multi-faceted meltdown a head scratching foul is just a cog in a much bigger gear.

Welcome back, Crash.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 26, 2020, 02:37:50 PM
It is accurate, especially in overtime

By the way, how you doing on examples of great coaches who at one point in their career forgot the score.  I’m sure you’re further along than last night, when Gruber losing a timeout was the “best” and only example you could muster.

I have spent 0.0 seconds looking for examples.  You are wrong on the other claim, it wasn’t the same each time.  Go rewatch.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 26, 2020, 02:38:45 PM
Keefe...unable to re-emerge the last two weeks?   8-)
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 26, 2020, 03:01:31 PM
No one asked because we lost. But in the context of an abysmal multi-faceted meltdown a head scratching foul is just a cog in a much bigger gear.
Well said sir...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 26, 2020, 04:17:21 PM
So Wojo said the last time he looked MU was down by two.You mean he didn't look at scoreboard the whole second half?MU was not behind the whole second half until he decided to foul and give Butler the lead.His defense philosophy is a another topic.Change defenses or double Baldwin and get the ball out of his hands.Make someone else beat you.Elementary.

Yup.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 26, 2020, 04:19:32 PM
This. Crean would have thrown up some pr crap to confuse his bad decisions and Buzz would have gone into full hunker down mode. Both also made plenty of in-game errors.

That said, especially for an emotional game coach like Wojo who is dug in on his systems, this is on his staff for not setting this up in the huddle right before on situationals. It’s an opportunity improvement area, and honestly owning up to those mistakes is critical for change.

Six years in and THIS is an area for improvement?

It's worse than I thought...
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 26, 2020, 04:44:43 PM

LOL

Mick Cronin just got called for a technical for having 6 men on the court.

It wasn't just a guy standing on the court. 6 guys were out on the floor playing at the same time.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 26, 2020, 06:03:16 PM
LOL

Mick Cronin just got called for a technical for having 6 men on the court.

It wasn't just a guy standing on the court. 6 guys were out on the floor playing at the same time.

Lol

No wonder why Fluffy Sultan wants him....he gets to play with one extra guy on the court.  Doesn’t he know the rules?  The hypocrisy is epic here.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: wildbillsb on January 26, 2020, 07:25:17 PM
I haven't seen this brought up much since the end of the game. What exactly are the roles of the half-dozen assistant coaches during the game? I certainly don't give those guys a free pass here. Plenty of blame to go around.
I don't know what was said in the last time out, but when coach Judson went storming out on the floor, he reminded me of years ago by when we both coached/taught togetherat GBS.  He was not happy.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MU82 on January 26, 2020, 09:40:57 PM
Firing not enough for Wojo.

Flog him on the public square. Then shoot him. Then flog him again. Then shoot him 3 more times.

Because if there's one thing Kobe's helicopter crash taught us, it's that nothing is more important than a Marquette basketball game.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 26, 2020, 09:51:22 PM
Disagree.

When I played and when my kids played, I had respect for coaches who admitted mistakes. And as a coach myself now, I have had two occasions on which I admitted to mistakes. I genuinely think it gave me credibility -- we're human, and we all make mistakes -- brought the team together and made us better. After one of those admissions, we went on to win the league title; after the other, we got to the title game.

Having said all that ...

It was a bad mistake by Wojo.

Even worse was letting Baldwin get to the same spot on the floor time and time again. It was disappointing to lose a game we had

Agreed. And as a competitive person, I hope it lights a fire in him to study end game scenarios so that the next time a collapse is underway he has a counter and a counter to the counter. This type of thing should eat him alive for a while and hopefully he'll come out the other side better for it.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhoaJoe2020 on January 26, 2020, 10:03:39 PM
Firing not enough for Wojo.

Flog him on the public square. Then shoot him. Then flog him again. Then shoot him 3 more times.

Because if there's one thing Kobe's helicopter crash taught us, it's that nothing is more important than a Marquette basketball game.

Some people like to beat dead horses and live horses. It's just who they are.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 26, 2020, 10:59:17 PM
Wojo clearly fooked up but the funny thing is it ultimately had no bearing on the end of the game.  Butler had ball in a tie game they were gonna run the clock out n win or tie.  Sure it took a Koby three, but regulation ended in a tie.  Much ado about nothing really.  MU lost because we couldnt get stops n defensive rebounds and couldnt execute offensively during the last 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Cheeks on January 26, 2020, 11:08:10 PM
Wojo clearly fooked up but the funny thing is it ultimately had no bearing on the end of the game.  Butler had ball in a tie game they were gonna run the clock out n win or tie.  Sure it took a Koby three, but regulation ended in a tie.  Much ado about nothing really.  MU lost because we couldnt get stops n defensive rebounds and couldnt execute offensively during the last 5 minutes.

Correct
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: WhiteTrash on January 27, 2020, 06:59:35 AM
Wojo clearly fooked up but the funny thing is it ultimately had no bearing on the end of the game.  Butler had ball in a tie game they were gonna run the clock out n win or tie.  Sure it took a Koby three, but regulation ended in a tie.  Much ado about nothing really.  MU lost because we couldnt get stops n defensive rebounds and couldnt execute offensively during the last 5 minutes.
A lot of Wojo hate here. He's our coach. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2020, 08:06:40 AM
A lot of Wojo hate here. He's our coach. Deal with it.


Nobody expects him to be fired.  But people are clearly frustrated with the lack of progress and post season success.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: lawdog77 on January 27, 2020, 08:29:53 AM

Nobody expects him to be fired.  But people are clearly frustrated with the lack of progress and post season success.
Complaining about lack of post season success in the middle of a season is crazy. That is an argument for the off season.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2020, 08:36:45 AM
Complaining about lack of post season success in the middle of a season is crazy. That is an argument for the off season.

Five years.  No tournament wins.  That is longer than any post-Dukiet coach has gone without winning a game in the tournament.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: MU82 on January 27, 2020, 08:51:29 AM
Five years.  No tournament wins.  That is longer than any post-Dukiet coach has gone without winning a game in the tournament.

Serious question, Sultan:

If we had beaten South Carolina in the '17 NCAA tourney and then lost by 40 to Duke, and had everything since then happened exactly the way it went down -- no NCAAs the next year, late collapse last year, embarrassing loss to Murray State, Hausershima, 14-6/4-4 this season so far -- Scoop would be overwhelmingly filled with, "Hey, Wojo's actually a darn good coach"?

Do you think that a single one of the Nojos would be even one iota happier with Wojo had he delivered an NCAA tournament win?

I mean, for at least a couple years, the knock against him was that he couldn't win 3 BEast games in a row. Then, last season, he had BEast winning streaks of 8 and 4 games ... so the Nojos lay in wait to find something else to complain about.

I am NOT saying there hasn't been reason to complain; nor am I advocating for the silencing of Nojos. I am generally Projo, but I have criticized Wojo numerous times over the last year, including in this very thread.

But the contention that if he had just won a single tournament game, folks would get off his back ... I sincerely doubt that.

There would still be the same cast of characters starting 3, 5, 10+ threads that just say the same things over and over and over and over again.

Then we win 3 in a row, and those folks disappear ... only to resurface and go ballistic, as if the world is about to end, the next time we lose. It makes Scoop borderline unreadable.
Title: Re: Wojo...what the hell
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2020, 08:58:47 AM
I think some people would feel marginally better about Wojo had they beat South Carolina.  And they wouldn't have lost to Duke by 40.