Kinda outta nowhere after all his comments.
And, Duke?
It is a little out of nowhere, but maybe he was just done with MU.
Theo seemed hurt at the end of the year. Maybe he needs surgery. Going to college would seem to make more sense than trying to get a pro job while hurt. That said, Theo was kind of always hurt.
Sounds like the chances of him returning to MU are basically nil, but he certainly would be helpful. We could use a center.
Would prefer that he'd stay at MU..... always loved his attitude and dedication
Theo John wanting to be Duke's backup center is weird
Theo seems a fine kid and decent player but not going to lose sleep about him moving on. It's time to look toward the future and he's not a part of the future. Best of luck to him.
Many have speculated - and it's feasible - Theo was planning on making $$$ next year, but with Covid the access to the international teams is difficult so seniors (all across the country) are choosing to use their "free" year instead.
edit: And are you really transferring if you were never coming back? I've thought that on the Koby and Cain threads too.
Quote from: jfp61 on April 15, 2021, 11:38:01 AM
Theo John wanting to be Duke's backup center is weird
To me, it makes a ton of sense. For a kid like Theo John to get to put on a Duke jersey, when overseas money making options are limited, makes so much sense. There is an undeniable allure to saying you played at one of the top 5 programs in the country. It could also make him more marketable in the future and gives him another year to heal up some old injuries.
I'd love to see him stay. I've never understood some of the negativity towards him. But, if he ends up at Duke, I think it would be great for him and would wish him the best.
Quote from: jfp61 on April 15, 2021, 11:38:01 AM
Theo John wanting to be Duke's backup center is weird
Wojo going back to Duke?
International basketball is a mess due to covid. Might as well play another year and show what you can do and have some fun instead of staying home.
Good for him. He got a Marquette degree and is onto a different experience at a more prestigious school.
I'd certainly take a Masters from Duke
Not bashing anyone, but Theo was a Wojo guy. I was shocked Wojo tried to run the offense thru him last year as he was never a big scorer. Loved having Theo at MU and sad to see him go. Wish him all the best and great success.
I wouldn't blame Theo one bit for wanting to play at Duke, even for a year. Not a better college basketball atmosphere in the world on game day
I've always been a fan of Theo's. From year 1 you saw a lot of potential and a player who was ready and willing to be coached and put the work in to get better. And he has! Sure he still had weaknesses, but he improved incredibly during these past 4 years. I was sad to see he may put on another university's jersey, but I wish all the greatest success for him.
From Theos perspective a no brainer to go to Duke.
This continues my belief that Marquette told all seniors there was no place for them on the team next year.
Where do you get he's doing a 5th year at Duke?
I agree that isn't really "transferring?"
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on April 15, 2021, 12:07:25 PM
This continues my belief that Marquette told all seniors there was no place for them on the team next year.
Maybe, but I also think those guys have been through a lot in their 4 years, and their perception of MU is going to be a lot different than the newcomers. They had to listen to the same boos that Wojo did, and as everyone likes to say, they commit to a coach, not a school. Playing for a new program won't be much different than playing for a new coach in Shaka, and they'll be able to go somewhere that won't have some of the same negative memories.
I also believe that the COVID experience has worn a lot of players out, just as it has everyone in general. Sure, they played last year, but the environment just wasn't the same. Transferring for one final hurrah provides a little spark and excitement that they've been missing out on. (I suspect that that feeling will extend to a lot of regular folks, too - once life begins to return to something close to normalcy, there's going to be a lot of people changing jobs).
MU invested a lot of other people's money to upgrade the program, not create feel good stories for guys that missed out on their senior year. It is time to hit the refresh button and look straight ahead.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on April 15, 2021, 12:07:25 PM
This continues my belief that Marquette told all seniors there was no place for them on the team next year.
Except Marquette was one of the options for Cain after entering the portal.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on April 15, 2021, 12:41:49 PM
Except Marquette was one of the options for Cain after entering the portal.
Says who?
Theo was a F'n Warrior for 4 years. Put more into #mubb than anyone else associated with the program. If he can suit up for freaking Duke and play a super senior year at Cameron Indoor, my God, run, do not walk, to that opportunity. Hope it happens for him. He'll always be a favorite of mine. A true Warrior.
Quote from: The Lens on April 15, 2021, 12:47:08 PM
Theo was a F'n Warrior for 4 years. Put more into #mubb than anyone else associated with the program. If he can suit up for freaking Duke and play a super senior year at Cameron Indoor, my God, run, do not walk, to that opportunity. Hope it happens for him. He'll always be a favorite of mine. A true Warrior.
My sentiments exactly.
Also, if Shaka wants him back and he wants to be at MU, I'd be very happy with that as well.
Yep. Theo owes MU nothing. He gave his all. If Duke wants him, congratulations and try something new.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on April 15, 2021, 12:07:25 PM
This continues my belief that Marquette told all seniors there was no place for them on the team next year.
Cain and Theo were welcomed back by Wojo. Shaka left the door open for all three but didn't ask them to stay either.
Quote from: UWW2MU on April 15, 2021, 11:55:41 AM
I've always been a fan of Theo's. From year 1 you saw a lot of potential and a player who was ready and willing to be coached and put the work in to get better. And he has! Sure he still had weaknesses, but he improved incredibly during these past 4 years. I was sad to see he may put on another university's jersey, but I wish all the greatest success for him.
Agreed - was cool to see his FT shooting take a jump this year (along with a few surprise threes that looked totally natural), you could tell he put a ton of work in there
Quote from: The Lens on April 15, 2021, 12:47:08 PM
Theo was a F'n Warrior for 4 years. Put more into #mubb than anyone else associated with the program. If he can suit up for freaking Duke and play a super senior year at Cameron Indoor, my God, run, do not walk, to that opportunity. Hope it happens for him. He'll always be a favorite of mine. A true Warrior.
yup - 100% agree. All time Warrior. Forever a Warrior.
It is time to have bigger goals for the program than being excited a guy worked hard to improve his free throw shooting over four years.
Theo is a such a great guy. So happy to have had him at MU. Wish he would stay another year but if he plays at Duke I'll be very happy for him. I hope he can springboard that into getting paid in the future.
Quote from: Goose on April 15, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
It is time to have bigger goals for the program than being excited a guy worked hard to improve his free throw shooting over four years.
Those don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Goose on April 15, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
It is time to have bigger goals for the program than being excited a guy worked hard to improve his free throw shooting over four years.
If that's the only improvement you saw with Theo's game this year, I don't think that you were watching all that closely.
Edited to add: not that I'd blame you...it was kind of hard to watch this year.
A Duke Graduate scholly ranges from 80 to 100k.....
Get a Masters from Duke and an undergrad from Marquette and the after basketball days become very $$$$......
Quote from: The Lens on April 15, 2021, 12:47:08 PM
Theo was a F'n Warrior for 4 years. Put more into #mubb than anyone else associated with the program. If he can suit up for freaking Duke and play a super senior year at Cameron Indoor, my God, run, do not walk, to that opportunity. Hope it happens for him. He'll always be a favorite of mine. A true Warrior.
Yep. I support Theo 100%, whatever he decides.
I trust Shaka on this stuff. If he wanted Theo, great. If he wants Elliott, great. If not, that's fine, too. And I respect the hell out of Theo's contribution these past 4 years, and I think Greg has a very nice skill that every college basketball team needs. But I also understand if the new coach wants to move on.
StillaWarrior
I commented countless times this season in regards to Theo's improvement as a player. 1000% commend him for the effort and the results. 100000% blame Wojo for putting Theo, and others, in a position that they could not have great success. My point is simple, it is time to hold the program to higher standards. My comment free throw improvement was made because many believe that was a great story. Playing in March is a great story, IMO.
Quote from: Goose on April 15, 2021, 01:15:09 PM
StillaWarrior
I commented countless times this season in regards to Theo's improvement as a player. 1000% commend him for the effort and the results. 100000% blame Wojo for putting Theo, and others, in a position that they could not have great success. My point is simple, it is time to hold the program to higher standards. My comment free throw improvement was made because many believe that was a great story. Playing in March is a great story, IMO.
Fair enough. But for someone who "commented countless times this season in regards to Theo's improvement as a player" and "1000% commend him for the effort and the results" your post sure sounded like a pretty harsh jab at him.
StillaWarrior
I have no negative feelings about Theo John and truly wish him great luck in his future. Simply put, it is time for better players to suit at MU and look to the future.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on April 15, 2021, 01:10:31 PM
If that's the only improvement you saw with Theo's game this year, I don't think that you were watching all that closely.
Edited to add: not that I'd blame you...it was kind of hard to watch this year.
Theo went from 5 points, 5 rebounds and 1 turnover per game in 20 minutes played in 2019-2020 to 8 points, 5 rebounds and 2 turnovers per game in 26 minutes played in 2020-21.
I keep hearing about this great improvement, but those numbers say otherwise. Ok he improved his free throw shooting I will give him that.
Quote from: CountryRoads on April 15, 2021, 12:45:43 PM
Says who?
https://twitter.com/endless_motor/status/1378139060267540484?s=20 (https://twitter.com/endless_motor/status/1378139060267540484?s=20)
Quote from: Goose on April 15, 2021, 01:15:09 PM
StillaWarrior
My comment free throw improvement was made because many believe that was a great story. Playing in March is a great story, IMO.
It was a great story this past March for Abilene Christian, that's for sure!
Just havin' some fun. Seriously glad we have Shaka. He has a lot to prove, and I think he'll prove it. It's been great seeing how optimistic and excited most are. Been a long time coming for Scoop!
I wish his attitude and effort equated to better results on the court, best of luck to him.
Quote from: The Lens on April 15, 2021, 12:47:08 PM
Theo was a F'n Warrior for 4 years. Put more into #mubb than anyone else associated with the program. If he can suit up for freaking Duke and play a super senior year at Cameron Indoor, my God, run, do not walk, to that opportunity. Hope it happens for him. He'll always be a favorite of mine. A true Warrior.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: jfp61 on April 15, 2021, 11:38:01 AM
Theo John wanting to be Duke's backup center is weird
He is going there to be Duke's pinch free throw shooter.
I would think Theo going to Duke would hurt his chances of playing professionally in 2 years. He won't get much playing time, so his stats will stink, and he won't have much tape to show. Wouldn't he be considerably better off if he went the mid-major route if he's trying to go pro? Or does a year with Coach K carry more weight than a nice stat line from the MEAC for international scouts?
Quote from: skianth16 on April 15, 2021, 03:17:12 PM
I would think Theo going to Duke would hurt his chances of playing professionally in 2 years. He won't get much playing time, so his stats will stink, and he won't have much tape to show. Wouldn't he be considerably better off if he went the mid-major route if he's trying to go pro? Or does a year with Coach K carry more weight than a nice stat line from the MEAC for international scouts?
Do we know what Theo's goals are?
Maybe he figures that an advanced degree from Duke will prepare him best for his post-basketball life and that, as you said, being a role player at Duke will be more impressive to interested international-basketball parties than going 15-10 at Appalachian State.
Quote from: skianth16 on April 15, 2021, 03:17:12 PM
I would think Theo going to Duke would hurt his chances of playing professionally in 2 years. He won't get much playing time, so his stats will stink, and he won't have much tape to show. Wouldn't he be considerably better off if he went the mid-major route if he's trying to go pro? Or does a year with Coach K carry more weight than a nice stat line from the MEAC for international scouts?
Dont really know how international teams recruit, but you'd have to imagine some Euro coach is going g to be a lot more impressed by a call from K than from Coach George Nobody at SW Missouri St.
Quote from: 1SE on April 15, 2021, 03:22:44 PM
Dont really know how international teams recruit, but you'd have to imagine some Euro coach is going g to be a lot more impressed by a call from K than from Coach George Nobody at SW Missouri St.
Hey! Coach Nobody has the Fightin' Southwesters trending in the right direction!
Quote from: Goose on April 15, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
It is time to have bigger goals for the program than being excited a guy worked hard to improve his free throw shooting over four years.
Goose, succinct and solid, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 15, 2021, 03:28:36 PM
Goose, succinct and solid, hey?
Agree. Looking forward to getting some top-50 kids for 2022
Quote from: 1SE on April 15, 2021, 03:22:44 PM
Dont really know how international teams recruit, but you'd have to imagine some Euro coach is going g to be a lot more impressed by a call from K than from Coach George Nobody at SW Missouri St.
Coach K telling a pro that he's got a guy that will be great at the next level has to carry a lot of weight. But if there's no evidence of it, does the phone call outweigh the numbers? I have a hard time thinking it would. But I've never been in the business of scouting pro basketball players, so I obviously don't really know.
Dwight Effen Burke was still getting 30 mpg in France as a 32-year-old before COVID arrived. Theo will have plenty of interest if that's what he wants to do.
Quote from: skianth16 on April 15, 2021, 03:17:12 PM
I would think Theo going to Duke would hurt his chances of playing professionally in 2 years. He won't get much playing time, so his stats will stink, and he won't have much tape to show. Wouldn't he be considerably better off if he went the mid-major route if he's trying to go pro? Or does a year with Coach K carry more weight than a nice stat line from the MEAC for international scouts?
What Theo does even in limited minutes against ACC competition will weigh far more on scouts' impressions than what he does against MEAC players.
Theo would get minutes at Duke. They've lost 1 big to the draft and 2 others are in the portal, leaving only 2 players 6'9" or taller.
https://247sports.com/college/duke/Article/Duke-reaches-out-to-former-Big-East-shot-blocking-center-Theo-John-164189416/
Happy for Theo. I hope he crushes it at Duke.
He hasn't committed to Duke yet, right? Minnesota is also interested, and he would be a hometown hero there. But maybe what he really wants is a deep tourney run.
Is there some secret fraternity I'm not in on that Theo is headed to Duke, #donedeal? Because it's being assumed nowhere else but this thread. Only thing I find is Duke contacted him when his name hit the portal. And that's all there is right now. You wouldn't know it reading this thread though.
Quote from: NickelDimer on April 15, 2021, 04:13:32 PM
Happy for Theo. I hope he crushes it at Duke.
where is there anything definite he's going to Duke? It sounds like they just reached out.
Yeah, that's pretty funny. We don't even know if Duke has serious interest.
There apparently has been at least some level of contact. Which led to a conversation here about whether or not that would be good for him. Which led to folks congratulating Theo on playing for Duke. Ye Olde Telephone Game!
I just hope things work out the way Theo wants them to.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 15, 2021, 04:23:01 PM
Is there some secret fraternity I'm not in on that Theo is headed to Duke, #donedeal? Because it's being assumed nowhere else but this thread. Only thing I find is Duke contacted him when his name hit the portal. And that's all there is right now. You wouldn't know it reading this thread though.
There are three Crystal Ball picks for Theo to Duke by three "Duke insiders," and the Crystal Ball is never wrong.
https://247sports.com/PlayerInstitution/Theo-John-at-Marquette-207472/CurrentTransferInstitutionPredictions/
They want him for his three-point shooting.
Well at least at Duke the refs probably wouldn't give him a foul because he breathed on some scrawny guy.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 15, 2021, 04:31:37 PM
There are three Crystal Ball picks for Theo to Duke by three "Duke insiders," and the Crystal Ball is never wrong.
https://247sports.com/PlayerInstitution/Theo-John-at-Marquette-207472/CurrentTransferInstitutionPredictions/
Done deal, folks
Quote from: Pakuni on April 15, 2021, 04:31:37 PM
There are three Crystal Ball picks for Theo to Duke by three "Duke insiders," and the Crystal Ball is never wrong.
https://247sports.com/PlayerInstitution/Theo-John-at-Marquette-207472/CurrentTransferInstitutionPredictions/
That link also lists Theo at 210 pounds, LOL.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on April 15, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
That link also lists Theo at 210 pounds, LOL.
Which bicep did they weigh?
Theo eats weights, dontcha know?
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on April 15, 2021, 04:22:51 PM
He hasn't committed to Duke yet, right? Minnesota is also interested, and he would be a hometown hero there. But maybe what he really wants is a deep tourney run.
I remember hearing that phrase about 9 years ago but it has slipped my mind as to what it means. Help me out here.
Love what Theo gave to us, but am having a hard time seeing this work out.
Quote from: connie on April 15, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
Love what Theo gave to us, but am having a hard time seeing this work out.
Why?
Quote from: connie on April 15, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
Love what Theo gave to us, but am having a hard time seeing this work out.
Seeing what work out?
Quote from: Hoops92 on April 15, 2021, 01:08:46 PM
Theo is a such a great guy. So happy to have had him at MU. Wish he would stay another year but if he plays at Duke I'll be very happy for him. I hope he can springboard that into getting paid in the future.
Theo will definitely get paid, but not to play basketball. If he plays next season for another college program, wishing him success.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 15, 2021, 07:43:30 PM
Theo will definitely get paid, but not to play basketball. If he plays next season for another college program, wishing him success.
Theo will be making money overseas if he wants. That's not in doubt.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 15, 2021, 07:46:38 PM
Theo will be making money overseas if he wants. That's not in doubt.
not in doubt and how do you know this?
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 15, 2021, 07:50:11 PM
not in doubt and how do you know this?
Because American bigs play overseas for a long time. Burke, Davante, Otule, etc are all still playing overseas. (Or at least had been up until Covid.) John is as good or better than many of them.
Quote from: The Lens on April 15, 2021, 12:47:08 PM
Theo was a F'n Warrior for 4 years. Put more into #mubb than anyone else associated with the program. If he can suit up for freaking Duke and play a super senior year at Cameron Indoor, my God, run, do not walk, to that opportunity. Hope it happens for him. He'll always be a favorite of mine. A true Warrior.
I agree with this. Theo is a solid basketball player and an absolute warrior, and amazing teammate. He is likely one of the most improved players at MU. I remember him missing layups in his first year, where he would throw the ball so hard it'd bounce back out to the FT line. This year, he was one of our better FT shooters, with actually some nice touch.
I'd love to see him at MU and think he would put in the work to be an even better player. I hope he gets the best of opportunities next year, and takes advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 15, 2021, 07:54:28 PM
Because American bigs play overseas for a long time. Burke, Davante, Otule, etc are all still playing overseas. (Or at least had been up until Covid.) John is as good or better than many of them.
Yep. Theo will have a long, profitable career if he stays healthy.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 15, 2021, 07:54:28 PM
Because American bigs play overseas for a long time. Burke, Davante, Otule, etc are all still playing overseas. (Or at least had been up until Covid.) John is as good or better than many of them.
conjecture, but ok. Good on ya FBM.
Theo better or as good as than Davante? Sheesh.
Quote from: Retire0 on April 15, 2021, 08:04:31 PM
Theo better than Davante? Sheesh.
Nobody said he was
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 15, 2021, 07:43:30 PM
Theo will definitely get paid, but not to play basketball. If he plays next season for another college program, wishing him success.
Theo can make lots of money in Europe or other pro leagues for sure.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 15, 2021, 08:02:08 PM
conjecture, but ok. Good on ya FBM.
LOL. You made even a less informed conjecture in the first place.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 15, 2021, 07:50:11 PM
not in doubt and how do you know this?
I mean, Dwight Effen Burke is still getting paid. Last pre-COVID season, he averaged 30 minutes per game at age 32. And compared to Burke, Theo was Maurice Lucas.
Quote from: Retire0 on April 15, 2021, 08:04:31 PM
Theo better or as good as than Davante? Sheesh.
I would take Theo over Davante all day every day
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 15, 2021, 08:34:15 PM
I would take Theo over Davante all day every day
In a foot race?
Quote from: forgetful on April 15, 2021, 07:55:36 PM
I agree with this. Theo is a solid basketball player and an absolute warrior, and amazing teammate. He is likely one of the most improved players at MU. I remember him missing layups in his first year, where he would throw the ball so hard it'd bounce back out to the FT line. This year, he was one of our better FT shooters, with actually some nice touch.
I'd love to see him at MU and think he would put in the work to be an even better player. I hope he gets the best of opportunities next year, and takes advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Really though? One of the most improved players at MU? Look at his 4 year stats. Really not much improvement at all. In some ways he regressed this year. Nothing against him, but the numbers are what they are.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 15, 2021, 08:36:18 PM
In a foot race?
Nope. Everything Davante did on one end, he gave back on the other end. Complete liability on D.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 15, 2021, 08:46:34 PM
Nope. Everything Davante did on one end, he gave back on the other end. Complete liability on D.
Sure, Theo blocked a lot of shots. But he gave up a lot of putbacks after flying at shots he had no chance of blocking.
Davante was an important piece on much better teams. And a helluva lot more fun to watch.
Theo and Davante aren't in the same league. Big Sheesh tilted the playing field on the offensive end. John turned the ball over or bricked it off the backboard more times than I can count.
I'll take Gardner all day, every day.
Quote from: 94Warrior on April 15, 2021, 09:26:14 PM
Theo and Davante aren't in the same league. Big Sheesh tilted the playing field on the offensive end. John turned the ball over or bricked it off the backboard more times than I can count.
I'll take Gardner all day, every day.
Points aren't everything, but Gardner matched or eclipsed Theo's career high 26 times in his career. This includes his first ever college game while only playing 13 minutes. Came up huge in his second game en route to a huge second half comeback vs Bucknell as well. Also was a big part of 3 sweet sixteen teams while playing in a much tougher conference. Personally, I don't think think there's much comparison although fans may have started chanting "automatic" when Theo shot free throws his senior year.
Nobody seems to remember that Theo had to skip practice much of the year, so he knee wouldn't be too sore for him to play. Last year he was trying to catch and shoot with only one hand because he needed wrist surgery.... it'd be awesome to see one year of a fully healthy Theo.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 15, 2021, 08:36:25 PM
Really though? One of the most improved players at MU? Look at his 4 year stats. Really not much improvement at all. In some ways he regressed this year. Nothing against him, but the numbers are what they are.
And here's what those numbers are:
Player Efficiency Rating: 16.6 (career high)
True Shooting %: .623 (career high)
eFG%: .583 (second to his soph season, but above his career average)
Offensive Win Shares: 1.2 (career high)
Defensive Win Shares: 1.0 (below soph year, but above career average)
To suggest Theo showed "not much improvement at all" and then claim the numbers support that is nuts.
Quote from: Johnny B on April 15, 2021, 08:35:44 PM
dumb
Dumber than dumb. Big Sheesh was way, way better. Not close.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 15, 2021, 09:49:42 PM
And here's what those numbers are:
Player Efficiency Rating: 16.6 (career high)
True Shooting %: .623 (career high)
eFG%: .583 (second to his soph season, but above his career average)
Offensive Win Shares: 1.2 (career high)
Defensive Win Shares: 1.0 (below soph year, but above career average)
To suggest Theo showed "not much improvement at all" and then claim the numbers support that is nuts.
Most people here won't understand those numbers.
I think Theo and Big SHEESH would both say SHEEEEEESH to the idea of Theo being better.
Theo was a warrior, dynamic shot blocker and the best to do it at Marquette since Mac, and clearly worked extremely hard cause his improvement was noticeable.
But Davante is probably the biggest Marquette diamond in the rough of the 2000s after Wade. He was absolutely unreal. And once leaving, he quickly became a star in each league he played in. He's arguably the best offensive player in a very solid Japanese B League, filled with former NBA guys and high talent.
Theo will get paid to play basketball for as long as he wants, at a pretty good level, but he will never be a first team player in a notable professional league. And that's ok, nothing against a good guy and good player
Quote from: JWags85 on April 15, 2021, 11:45:53 PM
Theo was a warrior, dynamic shot blocker and the best to do it at Marquette since Mac, and clearly worked extremely hard cause his improvement was noticeable.
But Davante is probably the biggest Marquette diamond in the rough of the 2000s after Wade. He was absolutely unreal. And once leaving, he quickly became a star in each league he played in. He's arguably the best offensive player in a very solid Japanese B League, filled with former NBA guys and high talent.
Theo will get paid to play basketball for as long as he wants, at a pretty good level, but he will never be a first team player in a notable professional league. And that's ok, nothing against a good guy and good player
Plus, the dude was unwrapping towels from his knees when he checked in. Probably a hot towel to keep his joints loose(?). Knees are shot.
As someone who watches a lot of Euro basketball, IMHO Theo has no chance in the top division and could maybe play in the lower divisions. Why?
a) Can't shoot. (at least there's no real evidence that he can). Euro bigs have to nail the 15 footer and the occasional 3.
b) Pick and Roll. How many times in his career has Theo scored as the roll man in the PNR? Closer to zero than any big man ever in history. The Pick and Roll is key to most Euro offenses and Theo doesn't even know which way to turn to look for the pass.
c) Fast Break. Given that Wojo seems to have strictly prohibited fast breaks, there is no evidence to support that Theo could score as the trail man on the break. This is another common role for Euro-Bigs.
Theo should go to Duke and get a masters. He'll definitely make more money in business than in hoops.
Quote from: WarriorFan on April 16, 2021, 12:17:44 AM
As someone who watches a lot of Euro basketball, IMHO Theo has no chance in the top division and could maybe play in the lower divisions. Why?
a) Can't shoot. (at least there's no real evidence that he can). Euro bigs have to nail the 15 footer and the occasional 3.
b) Pick and Roll. How many times in his career has Theo scored as the roll man in the PNR? Closer to zero than any big man ever in history. The Pick and Roll is key to most Euro offenses and Theo doesn't even know which way to turn to look for the pass.
c) Fast Break. Given that Wojo seems to have strictly prohibited fast breaks, there is no evidence to support that Theo could score as the trail man on the break. This is another common role for Euro-Bigs.
Theo should go to Duke and get a masters. He'll definitely make more money in business than in hoops.
He won't play high level Euro ball. Asia is probably his best bet. He'd probably do very well in South Korea or even Japan.
That being said, given the change in his FT form and decent stroke on limited 3s, I wouldn't be overly shocked if he developed a serviceable jumper.
I love Theo but give the Ox all day. Watching his highlights from China are always a bright spot in my week
Quote from: Retire0 on April 15, 2021, 08:04:31 PM
Theo better or as good as than Davante? Sheesh.
I said "as good or better as many of them." I never claimed he was better than all of them...or even most of them...
Again ... Dwight Freakin' Burke makes a living playing basketball in Europe.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 15, 2021, 08:02:08 PM
conjecture, but ok. Good on ya FBM.
Wait. You're giving him grief for conjecture after definitively stating Theo will not get paid to play basketball?
By golly, Scoop is precious.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 15, 2021, 09:49:42 PM
And here's what those numbers are:
Player Efficiency Rating: 16.6 (career high)
True Shooting %: .623 (career high)
eFG%: .583 (second to his soph season, but above his career average)
Offensive Win Shares: 1.2 (career high)
Defensive Win Shares: 1.0 (below soph year, but above career average)
To suggest Theo showed "not much improvement at all" and then claim the numbers support that is nuts.
Well something or someone is nuts.
Those numbers are meaningless and how do they compare across all his years. Also how do they compare to other players. The poster claimed Theo was one of the most improved at MU and I am calling BS. Looks like you really did some digging to find numbers to support your argument. The numbers I see are how many points per game did he score, rebounds, turnovers, blocks. From year 1 to year 4 not a hell of a lot of improvement. Not as much as what a typical starting player would improve from Freshmen to Senior.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 07:20:46 AM
Well something or someone is nuts.
Those numbers are meaningless and how do they compare across all his years. Also how do they compare to other players. The poster claimed Theo was one of the most improved at MU and I am calling BS. Looks like you really did some digging to find numbers to support your argument. The numbers I see are how many points per game did he score, rebounds, turnovers, blocks. From year 1 to year 4 not a hell of a lot of improvement. Not as much as what a typical starting player would improve from Freshmen to Senior.
Because you don't understand them, the numbers are meaningless?
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 16, 2021, 07:49:38 AM
Because you don't understand them, the numbers are meaningless?
No. There is no context to prior years or other starting players improvements over 4 years.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 15, 2021, 06:05:08 PM
Why?
For all there is to admire about Theo I believe that there are options with better speed, instinct, passing and shooting for him to be more than a "minutes here or there" guy for a high level program. His defensive presence was countered by silly fouls, a lack of any real offensive skill set, and a lack of feel that often seemed to leave him a step behind and out of position. On a team where there is more talent, balance and a better strategy of use he may be just what some team is looking for, and I hope that is true--I just don't see it.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 07:56:30 AM
No. There is no context to prior years or other starting players improvements over 4 years.
I thought he gave relationship to prior stats in the parentheses
I think Theo will make a big impact anywhere. Love his shot blocking and baby hook shot and his free throw shooting form shows he can knock down a mid range shot. I think some of Theo's limitations were more Wojo's limitations as a coach then Theo.
They were running sets designed to get Theo the ball on the block in 20-21. His offensive skill set is fine. To me, his weakness was always rebounding. Not a great offensive rebounder. Defensively, either the opponents were running sets designed to keep him on the perimeter, or he was going for blocks and was not in position for defensive boards.
Having said that, Gardner's defense was so bad that I would want Theo as my starter, much like CO started over Gardner during their time together.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 07:20:46 AM
Looks like you really did some digging to find numbers to support your argument. The numbers I see are how many points per game did he score, rebounds, turnovers, blocks. From year 1 to year 4 not a hell of a lot of improvement. Not as much as what a typical starting player would improve from Freshmen to Senior.
Right, I looked at more advanced stats that give a better picture of how well a player is performing and helping his team. You looked at the back of a basketball card and ignored context.
But I read somewhere that even Dwight Burke is playing for $$$
Quote from: connie on April 16, 2021, 07:57:17 AM
For all there is to admire about Theo I believe that there are options with better speed, instinct, passing and shooting for him to be more than a "minutes here or there" guy for a high level program. His defensive presence was countered by silly fouls, a lack of any real offensive skill set, and a lack of feel that often seemed to leave him a step behind and out of position. On a team where there is more talent, balance and a better strategy of use he may be just what some team is looking for, and I hope that is true--I just don't see it.
Well, hear me out ... perhaps your idea of what Theo should want from his next stop is very different from what Theo wants from his next stop.
Maybe his priority isn't to get the most shots up as possible against a lower level of competition (not that there would be anything wrong with that, if it's what he wanted).
Maybe, instead, he wants to play for a blueblood program, under a legendary coach, against the highest level of competition, and with a chance every year at a deep tourney run. All while continuing his education at one of the nation's elite universities. And when all's said and done, he gets to tell his kids and grandkids he played for Duke.
If doing that means sacrificing some minutes and shot attempts, maybe he's OK with that.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 08:07:32 AM
Right, I looked at more advanced stats that give a better picture of how well a player is performing and helping his team. You looked at the back of a basketball card and ignored context.
Of course he improved in his senior year, he should. How much did he improve? One of the most in MU? Saying those are career highs means nothing. What are the numbers for all 4 years? And how does he compare with other players? Here are stats most people look at. They are what they are, the numbers don't lie.
STATS
2020-21
2019-20
2018-19
2017-18
GP MIN FG% 3P% FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
27 26.3 57.2 75.0 74.0 5.0 1.2 1.5 0.6 2.8 1.9 8.0
30 20.9 54.9 0.0 56.0 5.2 0.7 1.8 0.4 2.7 0.9 5.1
34 19.7 60.2 0.0 50.6 4.9 0.5 2.1 0.3 3.6 1.1 5.5
33 11.8 57.3 0.0 50.0 2.3 0.2 0.8 0.3 2.5 1.1 3.9
You like his politics or his character? Great. That isn't a reflection of his play on the court. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, we disagree. I am too excited about the future of the program to worry about Theo John.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 08:24:46 AM
You like his politics or his character? Great. That isn't a reflection of his play on the court. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, we disagree. I am too excited about the future of the program to worry about Theo John.
*sigh*
You're right. I pointed to his improved TS%, eFG%, win shares and player efficiency rating not because those advanced metrics measure on-court play (that would be nuts!), but because of his politics and character.
Stop tripling down on your bad takes.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 07:20:46 AM
Well something or someone is nuts.
Those numbers are meaningless and how do they compare across all his years. Also how do they compare to other players. The poster claimed Theo was one of the most improved at MU and I am calling BS. Looks like you really did some digging to find numbers to support your argument. The numbers I see are how many points per game did he score, rebounds, turnovers, blocks. From year 1 to year 4 not a hell of a lot of improvement. Not as much as what a typical starting player would improve from Freshmen to Senior.
Per game numbers are poor metrics for overall player evaluation.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 08:16:47 AM
Well, hear me out ... perhaps your idea of what Theo should want from his next stop is very different from what Theo wants from his next stop.
Maybe his priority isn't to get the most shots up as possible against a lower level of competition (not that there would be anything wrong with that, if it's what he wanted).
Maybe, instead, he wants to play for a blueblood program, under a legendary coach, against the highest level of competition, and with a chance every year at a deep tourney run. All while continuing his education at one of the nation's elite universities. And when all's said and done, he gets to tell his kids and grandkids he played for Duke.
If doing that means sacrificing some minutes and shot attempts, maybe he's OK with that.
My comments were directed towards the Duke side of the equation. If I were making the decision for Theo I would agree with every point you make and move him south asap.
Quote from: connie on April 16, 2021, 08:46:50 AM
My comments were directed towards the Duke side of the equation. If I were making the decision for Theo I would agree with every point you make and move him south asap.
Duke needs dudes. They aren't bringing Theo in as a player to get them over the hump. They'd be bringing him in as a guy that can provide some minutes, experience, leadership and things of that nature. Even Duke needs bodies
Quote from: tower912 on April 16, 2021, 08:06:29 AM
They were running sets designed to get Theo the ball on the block in 20-21. His offensive skill set is fine. To me, his weakness was always rebounding. Not a great offensive rebounder. Defensively, either the opponents were running sets designed to keep him on the perimeter, or he was going for blocks and was not in position for defensive boards.
Having said that, Gardner's defense was so bad that I would want Theo as my starter, much like CO started over Gardner during their time together.
Remember the games that Creighton and Nova ran offense designed to drag him out of the paint and completely neutralized him and we had absolutely no adjustments to cope? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 16, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Per game numbers are poor metrics for overall player evaluation.
Ok, fine, why doesn't he answer the questions then. Saying Theo improved and throwing out a bunch of advanced stats doesn't say anything. He damn well better improve in his senior year. What are the comparative numbers all 4 years? How much did he improve? How do his numbers compare with other 4-year players? That was the initial argument. "One of the most improved players at MU" I believe it was stated.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 08:59:21 AM
Ok, fine, why doesn't he answer the questions then. Saying Theo improved and throwing out a bunch of advanced stats doesn't say anything. He damn well better improve in his senior year. What are the comparative numbers all 4 years? How much did he improve? How do his numbers compare with other 4-year players? That was the initial argument. "One of the most improved players at MU" I believe it was stated.
Why not?
Theo is a badass. He'll be missed for his leadership for sure.
Duke is a perfect spot for him. Spot minutes and when the team needs a spark.
And I absolutely believe he will make a good amount of money overseas.
Who knows how close Theo-to-Duke is to happening? It might never happen; it might already be a dead issue. None of us knows.
But if Coach K really does think Theo John can help Duke's basketball team, that will be the only validation I would need about his potential value to Duke. I don't think K would be taking him as some kind of charity case.
Officially Official
@Theojohn123: After conversations with my family, I have decided that next year I will be attending Duke University for my final year of eligibility. I would like to thank everyone who has been a part of my basketball journey. Happy to be joining #TheBrotherHood https://twitter.com/Theojohn123/status/1383058866674409478/photo/1
Very much look forward to watching Theo at Duke. What an awesome opportunity
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 09:14:30 AM
Officially Official
@Theojohn123: After conversations with my family, I have decided that next year I will be attending Duke University for my final year of eligibility. I would like to thank everyone who has been a part of my basketball journey. Happy to be joining #TheBrotherHood https://twitter.com/Theojohn123/status/1383058866674409478/photo/1
Honestly, this is FANTASTIC for him - going to a better program at a better academic institution.
All this quibbling about 'he's really not that good' is petty.
Quote from: naginiF on April 16, 2021, 09:16:13 AM
Honestly, this is FANTASTIC for him - going to a better program at a better academic institution.
All this quibbling about 'he's really not that good' is petty.
If he's good enough for Duke, he's good enough for Marquette
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 09:14:30 AM
Officially Official
@Theojohn123: After conversations with my family, I have decided that next year I will be attending Duke University for my final year of eligibility. I would like to thank everyone who has been a part of my basketball journey. Happy to be joining #TheBrotherHood https://twitter.com/Theojohn123/status/1383058866674409478/photo/1
Wow good for Theo! I'll root for him, the same way I rooted for Duane. They're fellow graduates of our university and as such will root for their success.
Wishing Theo good luck on his new opportunity.
Awesome For Theo
Quote from: naginiF on April 16, 2021, 09:16:13 AM
Honestly, this is FANTASTIC for him - going to a better program at a better academic institution.
All this quibbling about 'he's really not that good' is petty.
Agreed. He was a solid player. And a great watch.
Sounds more like a bunch of whining that he was a Wojo player and we are not allowed to support them anymore.
Quote from: naginiF on April 16, 2021, 09:16:13 AM
Honestly, this is FANTASTIC for him - going to a better program at a better academic institution.
All this quibbling about 'he's really not that good' is petty.
Talking about the basketball ability of a basketball player on a basketball message board is petty? Weird take.
Quote from: skianth16 on April 16, 2021, 09:19:31 AM
Talking about the basketball ability of a basketball player on a basketball message board is petty? Weird take.
Thinking you know more about a players basketball abilities than Coach K and his staff is a much weirder take
Good for Theo!
This just shows why Coach K has never, ever won at anything.
Seriously, very happy for Theo, a guy who worked hard, played hurt, led by example and represented Marquette well.
Quote from: MU82 on April 16, 2021, 09:28:16 AM
This just shows why Coach K has never, ever won at anything.
Seriously, very happy for Theo, a guy who worked hard, played hurt, led by example and represented Marquette well.
Big mistake not to consult Scoop before giving Theo a roster spot.
Great for Theo!
Theo was solid for Marquette, but I'm ready to turn the page. Let's see how much Lewis and Oso improve. Let's see what O-Max and Joplin can do. Let's see Shaka's system in action.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 09:14:30 AM
Officially Official
@Theojohn123: After conversations with my family, I have decided that next year I will be attending Duke University for my final year of eligibility. I would like to thank everyone who has been a part of my basketball journey. Happy to be joining #TheBrotherHood https://twitter.com/Theojohn123/status/1383058866674409478/photo/1
That's effing awesome! It'll be hard, but I will root for Theo next year at Duke.
Congratulations to Theo!
Quote from: fjm on April 16, 2021, 09:10:58 AM
Duke is a perfect spot for him. Spot minutes and when the team needs a spark.
I didn't realize that the term for turning the ball over or flinging up a wild ass hook shot is 'giving the team a spark'
Having said which, I hope he does well at Duke. I think this transfer says a lot more about the state of Duke hoops than it does about Theo's skills
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on April 16, 2021, 09:30:00 AM
Great for Theo!
Theo was solid for Marquette, but I'm ready to turn the page. Let's see how much Lewis and Oso improve. Let's see what O-Max and Joplin can do. Let's see Shaka's system in action.
Totally on board for turning the page at Marquette. And, like you, congratulating Theo. They are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Theo is going to be relied on as a rim protecting center. Probably get around 20 mpg doing so. If someone had Theo's background coming to MU for a year, we would be thrilled.
I thought Theo improved as a player and also matured on the court over his time at MU. Too bad to see him go. I would have loved to see him play another year at MU.
What I mean by improved is the ability to hit free throws, fewer unforced fouls, some counter moves and his hook (that was not dropping for him the second half of this year), ability to hit a jumper even though he didn't get to prove it much. The free throw improvement is something I've never seen from a player. Absolutely remarkable physically and mentally to improve so much.
On maturity, he stopped the flexing (and not getting back at times because he was distracted after a dunk), stopped the unnecessary staring and let his physical play be the intimidation instead of show things.
Delete
Quote from: GOO on April 16, 2021, 09:45:41 AM
This. If he was coming into MU this year and not counting as a scholarship, we'd be really happy. A missing piece, the physical defender we need to go against other bigs.
Quote from: keefe on April 16, 2021, 09:40:42 AM
I didn't realize that the term for turning the ball over or flinging up a wild ass hook shot is 'giving the team a spark'
Having said which, I hope he does well at Duke. I think this transfer says a lot more about the state of Duke hoops than it does about Theo's skills
Yeah, I'm seeing this similar to Patrick Tape and Sean Obi. But he gets to start a Duke grad degree, so not bad.
Congrats Theo!
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on April 16, 2021, 09:53:29 AM
Yeah, I'm seeing this similar to Patrick Tape and Sean Obi. But he gets to start a Duke grad degree, so not bad.
Assuming he's healthy, I'm going to go on record as Theo getting significantly more run than either Tape or Obi
Big time move for Theo, even if his role is much lesser. I like that he spurned Bucky and Minnesota.
Good luck, Theo.
That is great news for Theo and his family. Hope he enjoys his year at Duke.
Yes, congrats. Big move.
Unless Shaka has something else planned, we will, at times, miss his size and physicality in the post this year.
Quote from: GOO on April 16, 2021, 10:33:46 AM
Yes, congrats. Big move.
Unless Shaka has something else planned, we will, at times, miss his size and physicality in the post this year.
Good luck to Theo. Nice landing spot. But I would disagree that we'll miss his size and physicality in the post. He had lacking physicality. Lots of nice shoulder/arm flexes over the years, but severely disappointing physicality.
He was the only legit interior BG that MU had last year and he put up 5 rebounds a game. Honestly, that's just awful. Mostly spent time fouling and not getting rebounds because he tried to block every single shot that he saw.
Good luck to the guy, but to pretend he will be productive for Duke or even get extended minutes is funny.
Glad that the noted basketball savants here know that Theo is a bum, far more knowledgeable about his ability than the hacks at one of the premier CBB programs in the country
Quote from: Cfollow on April 16, 2021, 10:42:23 AM
He was the only legit interior BG that MU had last year and he put up 5 rebounds a game. Honestly, that's just awful. Mostly spent time fouling and not getting rebounds because he tried to block every single shot that he saw.
Good luck to the guy, but to pretend he will be productive for Duke or even get extended minutes is funny.
So, why is Duke giving him a roster spot if they don't intend to play him? It's not like it's a program so incapable of landing quality players that they'll take any body they can get.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 16, 2021, 10:44:50 AM
Glad that the noted basketball savants here know that Theo is a bum, far more knowledgeable about his ability than the hacks at one of the premier CBB programs in the country
To be fair our former head coach was one of those hacks at one of the premier CBB programs in the country.
I do think Theo showed a lot of skill early this year but his knees are majorly messed up and it really showed through the season. Maybe he can get some crazy treatment at Duke he can't at MU? But he'll be a 15min guy IMO there.
Quote from: SWARM! on April 16, 2021, 10:41:41 AM
Good luck to Theo. Nice landing spot. But I would disagree that we'll miss his size and physicality in the post. He had lacking physicality. Lots of nice shoulder/arm flexes over the years, but severely disappointing physicality.
fake tough guy
Quote from: Cfollow on April 16, 2021, 10:42:23 AM
He was the only legit interior BG that MU had last year and he put up 5 rebounds a game. Honestly, that's just awful. Mostly spent time fouling and not getting rebounds because he tried to block every single shot that he saw.
Good luck to the guy, but to pretend he will be productive for Duke or even get extended minutes is funny.
6'-5" Trent Lockett outrebounded 6'-7" Jamil Wilson, 6'-8" Davante Gardner, and 6'-11" Chris Otule on the E8 team. Having a good box-out leading to an easy board for someone else is just as good as a board for you. For a team that will have a ton of underclassmen that need to hit the weights, Theo's physical presence will be missed. Good luck to him at Duke.
I actually thought he had some very impactful games early on in the season before he got hurt. He was a shell of himself at the end of the season with the injuries and the team suffered mightily. Plus I still think Wojo didn't coach or use him properly on both ends of the court. Great pick up for Duke and great move for Theo.
Quote from: SWARM! on April 16, 2021, 10:41:41 AM
Good luck to Theo. Nice landing spot. But I would disagree that we'll miss his size and physicality in the post. He had lacking physicality. Lots of nice shoulder/arm flexes over the years, but severely disappointing physicality.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 10:51:32 AM
fake tough guy
It's basketball, and on top of that it's modern basketball which is tremendously less physical than 10yrs ago let alone the 90s and 80s. What are you looking for for physicality? There's only so much you can do.
If you ask me anybody who plays through the broken hand he did last year or the very obvious knee issues this year is a tough individual. Maybe he won't be joining a fighting sport or rugby team any time soon but he clearly epitomizes fighting through the pain and injuries for the team.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 10:53:36 AM
Says the internet tough guy.
Well, ok. I like that. But at least I don't walk around shooting the double-bi like STFU Theo.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 10:58:50 AM
Well, ok. I like that. But at least I don't walk around shooting the double-bi like STFU Theo.
Your Theo hatred is on par with Willie's disdain of Luke Fisher.
And for zero reason. That's not company you wanna be associated with.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 10:48:23 AM
So, why is Duke giving him a roster spot if they don't intend to play him? It's not like it's a program so incapable of landing quality players that they'll take any body they can get.
i'm the internet tough guy and you're the internet genius. 😂
Quote from: Cfollow on April 16, 2021, 10:42:23 AM
but to pretend he will be productive for Duke or even get extended minutes is funny.
This may not age well. He'll be playing for a Coach who actually knows how to use big men.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 11:00:06 AM
i'm the internet tough guy and you're the internet genius. 😂
lmao,
Pakuni is one of the smartest people on this entire board. Backs up his arguments with data.
Meanwhile, your feelings guide your opinions.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 10:58:50 AM
Well, ok. I like that. But at least I don't walk around shooting the double-bi like STFU Theo.
Is that being tough? I mean he is objectively jacked, and flexing his muscles. I'd say being a fake tough guy would be more him starting a fight and yelling "hold me back" to all his teammates.
Glad to hear this and good luck to Theo. I was always semi-mesmerized by his FT form and amazed by his improvement in that area. Glad I'll have some chances to see that next season.
Really Smart move by Theo. Best of Success, GOD Bless, and thanks for all the dripping Sweat.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 11:00:06 AM
i'm the internet tough guy and you're the internet genius. 😂
OK, I'll take that.
Hards is far too kind. I'm as big a dope as anyone else here. Well, almost anyone. There are some levels of dumb even I've managed to avoid.
Quote from: lawdog77 on April 16, 2021, 11:02:11 AM
This may not age well. He'll be playing for a Coach who actually knows how to use big men.
Hmmm, but K had Wojo coaching the bigs not so long ago.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 16, 2021, 10:44:50 AM
Glad that the noted basketball savants here know that Theo is a bum, far more knowledgeable about his ability than the hacks at one of the premier CBB programs in the country
Some can't say anything decent about a "Marxist," even one who worked his arse off for their alma mater for four years.
Says way more about them than about Theo or Wojo or anybody else. Sad.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 09:14:30 AM
Officially Official
@Theojohn123: After conversations with my family, I have decided that next year I will be attending Duke University for my final year of eligibility. I would like to thank everyone who has been a part of my basketball journey. Happy to be joining #TheBrotherHood https://twitter.com/Theojohn123/status/1383058866674409478/photo/1
Congratulations Theo!
I wonder if Perez ends up at Duke.
Theo will be missed. I will never understand why the referees seemed to hate him so much. He would just look at an opposing player and get a foul. That's S H fiasco in the Big East tournament a few years ago still hurts. Good luck and great landing spot.
Congrats to Theo! I will definitely be pulling for him and very interested to see how he does at different school surrounded by better talent.
This is a smart move by Duke. Ever since Coach K succumbed to the one-on-done philosophy, they've desperately missed upperclassmen leaders. Theo will be a great veteran presence for a young team even if he isn't getting the same amount of minutes.
On the advice of ol' Woj, Duke plans to run its offense through Theo.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 16, 2021, 09:36:44 AM
That's effing awesome! It'll be hard, but I will root for Theo next year at Duke.
Next year will be the first, and likely only year ever, where I will root for Duke.
Super happy for Theo!
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 11:31:35 AM
OK, I'll take that.
Hards is far too kind. I'm as big a dope as anyone else here. Well, almost anyone. There are some levels of dumb even I've managed to avoid.
That's a clever way of calling me an idiot.
A few years back, my son and I befriended Chase Jeter when he was at Duke, and we got invited to a game at Cameron. We sat two rows behind the Duke bench (with players families), and got to shoot around postgame. It was by far the coolest sports experience I've ever had (Duke played Maine that evening).
That's all to say Theo made an awesome decision. Say what you want about Duke, but that is as good as it gets as a college basketball environment.
Quote from: hairy worthen on April 16, 2021, 08:59:21 AM
Ok, fine, why doesn't he answer the questions then. Saying Theo improved and throwing out a bunch of advanced stats doesn't say anything. He damn well better improve in his senior year. What are the comparative numbers all 4 years? How much did he improve? How do his numbers compare with other 4-year players? That was the initial argument. "One of the most improved players at MU" I believe it was stated.
Hello, Scoop Takes? Yes, I have a post to report...
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 16, 2021, 12:35:49 PM
That's a clever way of calling me an idiot.
You're not an idiot. But you belong to a community of idiots (aka Scoop).
Good luck, Theo. It should be a good fit.
Quote from: Goose on April 16, 2021, 11:59:52 AM
I wonder if Perez ends up at Duke.
Zing!!
I appreciate everything Theo did at MU. He always played hard. He always represented the school well. But I'll be shocked if he is more than an 8/5 guy at Duke. His skill was blocking shots. He was not a good defender or rebounder.
Quote from: cschor on April 16, 2021, 12:10:36 PM
Theo will be missed. I will never understand why the referees seemed to hate him so much. He would just look at an opposing player and get a foul. That's S H fiasco in the Big East tournament a few years ago still hurts. Good luck and great landing spot.
I never understood this popular sentiment amongst MU fans. Theo got called for a lot of fouls because Theo fouled a lot. His fouls per minute gradually went down over time because he fouled less often.
I wish him all the best at Duke. I personally wasn't terribly fond of his game, but he gave it his all while he was here and I respect that very much.
Quote from: Jockey on April 16, 2021, 01:51:32 PM
I appreciate everything Theo did at MU. He always played hard. He always represented the school well. But I'll be shocked if he is more than an 8/5 guy at Duke. His skill was blocking shots. He was not a good defender or rebounder.
So?
Thank you, Theo, for giving your all at Marquette for four years. For the next year and the next year ONLY, I will become a Duke fan. I hope you have a great time and provide Duke with some experience and senior leadership that the team hasn't had since Grayson Allen graduated. Oh wait, I don't mean that kind of leadership. Looking forward to seeing how the ACC refs treat you. Never lose that glare.
That is awesome for Theo. I hope he swats opposing ACC team shots everywhere. Also show the ACC a number of power offensive moves.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 16, 2021, 11:16:24 AM
Is that being tough? I mean he is objectively jacked, and flexing his muscles. I'd say being a fake tough guy would be more him starting a fight and yelling "hold me back" to all his teammates.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 16, 2021, 02:00:35 PM
I never understood this popular sentiment amongst MU fans. Theo got called for a lot of fouls because Theo fouled a lot. His fouls per minute gradually went down over time because he fouled less often.
I wish him all the best at Duke. I personally wasn't terribly fond of his game, but he gave it his all while he was here and I respect that very much.
Agree on all counts.
Quote from: Goose on April 16, 2021, 11:59:52 AM
I wonder if Perez ends up at Duke.
Nah, Baylor, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 01:36:54 PM
You're not an idiot. But you belong to a community of idiots (aka Scoop).
ok ok, I'm a fake internet tough guy, more-so an idiot! 😀 all in good fun, right everyone? Dang, this Scoop deal gets rough at times. FBM hammers me. I think my buddy Tsmith has been quick with the draw. BLM, too. But can we agree, Theo blocked shots but was otherwise pretty average?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 16, 2021, 10:48:23 AM
So, why is Duke giving him a roster spot if they don't intend to play him? It's not like it's a program so incapable of landing quality players that they'll take any body they can get.
I think Theo will play at Duke - but not everybody with a roster spot does. Doesn't K generally go with a 7 or 8 man rotation?
What other schools were going after Theo after he entered the portal?
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 04:23:52 PM
Again an objectively jacked guy is flexing. Are you this upset that body builders flex their muscles?
Quote from: jficke13 on April 16, 2021, 08:54:19 AM
Remember the games that Creighton and Nova ran offense designed to drag him out of the paint and completely neutralized him and we had absolutely no adjustments to cope? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Now imagine if Theo were Davante. 100 times worse.
Quote from: Marq3332 on April 16, 2021, 04:30:55 PM
ok ok, I'm a fake internet tough guy, more-so an idiot! 😀 all in good fun, right everyone? Dang, this Scoop deal gets rough at times. FBM hammers me. I think my buddy Tsmith has been quick with the draw. BLM, too. But can we agree, Theo blocked shots but was otherwise pretty average?
Yeah, we can definitely agree that Theo was about what you'd expect of a 3 star recruit--gradual improvement year-after-year. Certainly not a guy that blew up onto a lottery pick. I just take exception to people taking a shot at the young man on a personal level when it is clear (to me at least) that he gave it his all, including playing his junior year with a broken hand and his senior year with knees that needed to be iced every time he came out of the game by the end of the year. The doesn't strike me as a fake tough guy at all.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 16, 2021, 05:54:03 PM
Now imagine if Theo were Davante. 100 times worse.
No imagining necessary. Theo (as a basketball player) IS about 100 times worse than Davante.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 16, 2021, 07:37:19 PM
Yeah, we can definitely agree that Theo was about what you'd expect of a 3 star recruit--gradual improvement year-after-year. Certainly not a guy that blew up onto a lottery pick. I just take exception to people taking a shot at the young man on a personal level when it is clear (to me at least) that he gave it his all, including playing his junior year with a broken hand and his senior year with knees that needed to be iced every time he came out of the game by the end of the year. The doesn't strike me as a fake tough guy at all.
Smitty
Pretty much agree with everything you say. My only problem with Theo was that he hunted blocked shots at the expense of solid defense and rebounding. I don't blame him, though - he was a good shot blocker and liked doing it. I blame Wojo, since I have to believe he gave Theo the green light - this was a common theme of the Wojo regime. The players pretty much did what they wanted.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 16, 2021, 09:05:34 PM
Smitty
Pretty much agree with everything you say. My only problem with Theo was that he hunted blocked shots at the expense of solid defense and rebounding. I don't blame him, though - he was a good shot blocker and liked doing it. I blame Wojo, since I have to believe he gave Theo the green light - this was a common theme of the Wojo regime. The players pretty much did what they wanted.
Fair enough
Loved Theo adding the offensive game this year, and that he improved so much from the line. I thought he was another unappreciated mu player and thrilled for him.
Just saw on the ESPN bottom line a few minutes ago "Duke lands Marquette transfer Theo John".
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 16, 2021, 08:57:10 PM
No imagining necessary. Theo (as a basketball player) IS about 100 times worse than Davante.
Davante was the right person at the right position for Buzz's team with Otule at center.
But does anyone ever remember Davante's feet leaving the ground?
One-on-One on the court I bet Theo could take Davante apart.
Theo much more quick, could leap bounds more than Davante.
Davante was a big body with a nice outside shot. He worked great in Buzz's system. Theo is an athlete.
Quote from: NCMUFan on April 17, 2021, 05:51:36 AM
Davante was the right person at the right position for Buzz's team with Otule at center.
But does anyone ever remember Davante's feet leaving the ground?
One-on-One on the court I bet Theo could take Davante apart.
Theo much more quick, could leap bounds more than Davante.
Davante was a big body with a nice outside shot. He worked great in Buzz's system. Theo is an athlete.
Davante would foul Theo out before the first TV timeout.
Theo could beat up Davante.
Seriously, children, can't we just be happy for Theo instead of turning this into a pissing match?
Buzz called Davante "Avante" because he didn't play D. Maybe merge the two of them to form a complete player and have Hologram Al coach them.
Different players, different coaches, different systems.
Compared them statistically on KenPom and found it interesting their minutes mirrored each other from freshmen to senior seasons. Suppose it felt like Davante was on the court more while forgetting Buzz lineup switching through the course of games
Quote from: Pakuni on April 17, 2021, 06:52:27 AM
Theo could beat up Davante.
Seriously, children, can't we just be happy for Theo instead of turning this into a pissing match?
Nope. Theo has 3 strikes against him: 1. Played for Wojo; 2. Wasn't a star; 3. Wasn't content to just shut up and dribble.
So Theo gets "don't let the door hit you on the way out." And Duke is taking him only as a charity case -- as they so often do with basketball players, which explains why the program hasn't been any good the last few decades.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on April 17, 2021, 06:54:56 AM
Buzz called Davante "Avante" because he didn't play D. Maybe merge the two of them to form a complete player and have Hologram Al coach them.
Different players, different coaches, different systems.
Compared them statistically on KenPom and found it interesting their minutes mirrored each other from freshmen to senior seasons. Suppose it felt like Davante was on the court more while forgetting Buzz lineup switching through the course of games
Totally different players Uncle R. Davante was extremely skilled offensively with a soft touch. Unfortunately he snapped his Sr. season and engaged in binge eating but he was instrumental in two very good MU tournament runs.
Avante couldn't guard you, Muggsy. There is a reason that Otule usually started over him. Watching Ox try to guard on the perimeter his senior year was particularly painful. Made Theo, Luke, Matt, Jayce all look graceful. Phenomenal low post scorer. Ultimately a one trick pony.
Theo worked out in Durham after the UNC game. K decided he wanted him. Good luck to Theo.
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2021, 05:56:01 PM
Avante couldn't guard you, Muggsy. There is a reason that Otule usually started over him. Watching Ox try to guard on the perimeter his senior year was particularly painful. Made Theo, Luke, Matt, Jayce all look graceful. Phenomenal low post scorer. Ultimately a one trick pony.
Theo worked out in Durham after the UNC game. K decided he wanted him. Good luck to Theo.
Really??
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2021, 05:56:01 PM
Avante couldn't guard you, Muggsy. There is a reason that Otule usually started over him. Watching Ox try to guard on the perimeter his senior year was particularly painful. Made Theo, Luke, Matt, Jayce all look graceful. Phenomenal low post scorer. Ultimately a one trick pony.
Theo worked out in Durham after the UNC game. K decided he wanted him. Good luck to Theo.
Why are you attacking him Tower? And Theo couldn't score or stay on the floor while at MU. Two different players. But Davante had many games where he was superb on the offensive end and led us to victory. He also amped up the crowd. Quite simply ? He got buckets. I have no idea why you would discredit his success. I wish Theo the best but do not discount Davante's impact during his time at Marquette.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 06:15:53 PM
Why are you attacking him Tower? And Theo couldn't score or stay on the floor while at MU. Two different players. But Davante had many games where he was superb on the offensive end and led us to victory. He also amped up the crowd. Quite simply ? He got buckets. I have no idea why you would discredit his success. I wish Theo the best but do not discount Davante's impact during his time at Marquette.
Box score is not the story
Quote from: Newsdreams on April 18, 2021, 06:34:07 PM
Box score is not the story
I'm not sure what that means. Davante was an integral part of 3 MU teams that went S16, S16, E8. He played on vastly superior teams than Theo did. And yes, his defense was very poor, but he was quite valuable to our overall success including crunch time buckets and free-throws.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 06:15:53 PM
Why are you attacking him Tower? And Theo couldn't score or stay on the floor while at MU. Two different players. But Davante had many games where he was superb on the offensive end and led us to victory. He also amped up the crowd. Quite simply ? He got buckets. I have no idea why you would discredit his success. I wish Theo the best but do not discount Davante's impact during his time at Marquette.
Davante was a very enjoyable player to watch during his time at MU. So many good memories.
Davante has also chosen his foreign path perfectly. Got a nice start in the French B league ( we at MU Scoop were treated to some great updates of his game by a French Fan) and then on to 6 years of consistent high production in Japan .
Super proud of what he has achieved.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 06:43:17 PM
I'm not sure what that means. Davante was an integral part of 3 MU teams that went S16, S16, E8. He played on vastly superior teams than Theo did. And yes, his defense was very poor, but he was quite valuable to our overall success including crunch time buckets and free-throws.
Talking bout Theo
And I love Davante but because of lack of D he has nade his 💰 in a very weak league.
Quote from: Newsdreams on April 18, 2021, 06:47:58 PM
Talking bout Theo
I see...my bad. Davante was also an extremely intelligent offensive player with terrific hands. Had he not had eating issues he may have been able to develop some defensive skills.
Quote from: Newsdreams on April 18, 2021, 06:49:36 PM
And I love Davante but because of lack of D he has nade his 💰 in a very weak league.
FYI, the Japanese B league is their highest league. And he makes quite a bit of cash in it.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 06:43:17 PM
I'm not sure what that means. Davante was an integral part of 3 MU teams that went S16, S16, E8. He played on vastly superior teams than Theo did. And yes, his defense was very poor, but he was quite valuable to our overall success including crunch time buckets and free-throws.
If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose?
The correct answer is Theo and it's not close
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2021, 07:15:44 PM
If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose?
The correct answer is Theo and it's not close
That team wouldn't be very good either way
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 18, 2021, 07:24:28 PM
That team wouldn't be very good either way
Who coaches the team?
Theo is the better two-way center. The entire team worked out at Cameron indoor.
K wanted him.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2021, 07:15:44 PM
If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose?
The correct answer is Theo and it's not close
I disagree and to say it's not close is ridiculous. Davante played on much, much, better teams. He couldn't stay on the floor more than half the game because of his defense. But he was a weapon in the post and did a number of additional good things offensively including screening and understanding his role.
Theo is more talented, certainly a better defender and athlete, but struggled to score the basketball. In addition his defense, while better than Davante's, is grossly exaggerated. The truth is he was a very mediocre defender despite being an excellent help shot blocker. He fouled constantly, was an atrocious rebounder, and got torched constantly when he had to switch on smalls.
The idea that he was a really good defender for us is complete nonsense if you watched the games. So my contention is if you had literally no player that can guard the 5 on the roster you wouldn't take DG over TJ. But if you could split Davante with a role player defender I would absolutely take him ahead of Theo. To say "it's not close" is absurd imo. Theo had a very pedestrian career at MU for his overall ability.
It really depends on the team you build around them. I would rather have a guard oriented team with Theo guarding the rim than a post oriented team with Davante playing defense underneath. Both were good in different ways.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on April 18, 2021, 07:06:31 PM
FYI, the Japanese B league is their highest league. And he makes quite a bit of cash in it.
Japanese, not even close to top Europe leagues. Not to diminish Davante but he / and or his agent were smart enough to go to a weak league where he would become a star. People here have no clue on international basketball. See Japanese world ranking for basketball.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 18, 2021, 08:10:26 PM
It really depends on the team you build around them. I would rather have a guard oriented team with Theo guarding the rim than a post oriented team with Davante playing defense underneath. Both were good in different ways.
This is why I think it's debatable. But as we see every year scoring is at a premium in the NCAA tournament. Let me ask you this: In a close game down the stretch who would you want on the floor? People seem to forget Davante sealed a number of big-time games for us.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 08:17:01 PM
This is why I think it's debatable. But as we see every year scoring is at a premium in the NCAA tournament. Let me ask you this: In a close game down the stretch who would you want on the floor? People seem to forget Davante sealed a number of big-time games for us.
I would run an offense / defense substitution with the two of them. I wouldn't run my offense around Davante though.
Both have significant limitations... but I'd take Davante in a heatbeat. Better basketball sense overall and a gifted scorer from anywhere. Theo's defense is over-rated because of the blocks because for every block he gets, he gives up about 5 easy buckets due to being out of position. The problem with Theo is that on offense he's like an extra defender. No concept of where to be or how to move and he's in the way (bring his defender with him) of other guys trying to move/score. I can't see him making an impact at Duke unless they are really bad next year.
Quote from: WarriorFan on April 18, 2021, 08:24:42 PM
Theo's defense is over-rated because of the blocks because for every block he gets, he gives up about 5 easy buckets due to being out of position.
Sounds very scientific.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
I disagree and to say it's not close is ridiculous. Davante played on much, much, better teams. He couldn't stay on the floor more than half the game because of his defense. But he was a weapon in the post and did a number of additional good things offensively including screening and understanding his role.
Theo is more talented, certainly a better defender and athlete, but struggled to score the basketball. In addition his defense, while better than Davante's, is grossly exaggerated. The truth is he was a very mediocre defender despite being an excellent help shot blocker. He fouled constantly, was an atrocious rebounder, and got torched constantly when he had to switch on smalls.
The idea that he was a really good defender for us is complete nonsense if you watched the games. So my contention is if you had literally no player that can guard the 5 on the roster you wouldn't take DG over TJ. But if you could split Davante with a role player defender I would absolutely take him ahead of Theo. To say "it's not close" is absurd imo. Theo had a very pedestrian career at MU for his overall ability.
I am in the Davante Camp. He had one very strong collegiate skill, which was scoring inside using both hands. He never forced shots, and his inside strength opened things up for the rest of the team to perform well. My guess is that if Davante had not had the knee injury in 2011-12 we could have potentially made final four that year ( when he tried to come back he was not as effective). Worth noting, Davante also played in the old Big East conference, which was one of the strongest conferences ever.
Davante also was a big Broken Yolk guy.
Quote from: WarriorFan on April 18, 2021, 08:24:42 PM
Both have significant limitations... but I'd take Davante in a heatbeat. Better basketball sense overall and a gifted scorer from anywhere. Theo's defense is over-rated because of the blocks because for every block he gets, he gives up about 5 easy buckets due to being out of position. The problem with Theo is that on offense he's like an extra defender. No concept of where to be or how to move and he's in the way (bring his defender with him) of other guys trying to move/score. I can't see him making an impact at Duke unless they are really bad next year.
I would expect Theo to do a little better statistically at Duke. He won't get the cheap fouls because of Coach K's whining. He also should get more gimmies on a better overall team. I do think your point about Davante's basketball "sense" or intangibles is completely valid. He rarely made silly decisions on the offensive end.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 18, 2021, 07:24:28 PM
That team wouldn't be very good either way
Probably not. But Theo is better suited to the way the game is played now. Which is the point.
Quote from: Herman Cain on April 18, 2021, 08:33:49 PM
I am in the Davante Camp. He had one very strong collegiate skill, which was scoring inside using both hands. He never forced shots, and his inside strength opened things up for the rest of the team to perform well. My guess is that if Davante had not had the knee injury in 2011-12 we could have potentially made final four that year ( when he tried to come back he was not as effective). Worth noting, Davante also played in the old Big East conference, which was one of the strongest conferences ever.
Davante also was a big Broken Yolk guy.
This is a great point. There are things that do not show up in the box score Herman. He absolutely created more space and opportunities in our offense. And the fact that he played in the best conf in the country cannot be overlooked. Most importantly, as you stated, he didn't force things. He knew how to get a quality shot and exercised great patience. The amount of times Theo got the ball in the post, could easily get to the rim, but instead took a jump hook or rushed 8 footer, is uncountable. It was absolutely infuriating to watch.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2021, 07:15:44 PM
If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose?
The correct answer is Theo and it's not close
OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:
1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.
2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.
Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.
Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.
I have it on very solid intel that Davante not only knew how to flush but could flush with authority.
That skill is something that cannot be underestimated during the Buzzard Era.
Your last sentance says it all. Referring to Lenny.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2021, 08:37:45 PM
Probably not. But Theo is better suited to the way the game is played now. Which is the point.
Kaminsky's game is better suited to today game than Shaq's. Who would you take? My point is there are other factors. There wasn't a 5 in the Final 4 this year that took threes or really played like Theo or Davante. The surrounding pieces would dictate their effectiveness. As others have stated both have their limitations.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 08:37:08 PM
I would expect Theo to do a little better statistically at Duke. He won't get the cheap fouls because of Coach K's whining. He also should get more gimmies on a better overall team. I do think your point about Davante's basketball "sense" or intangibles is completely valid. He rarely made silly decisions on the offensive end.
He'll still get the cheap fouls because he commits cheap fouls.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 18, 2021, 08:54:27 PM
Kaminsky's game is better suited to today game than Shaq's. Who would you take? My point is their are other factors. There wasn't a 5 in the Final 4 this year that took threes or really played like Theo or Davante. The surrounding pieces would dictate their effectiveness. As others have stated both have their limitations.
What?!?!?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 18, 2021, 08:45:55 PM
OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:
1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.
2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.
Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.
Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.
Well said, Lenny. Theo was the athlete. Davante was the basketball player.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 18, 2021, 08:45:55 PM
OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:
1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.
2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.
Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.
Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.
Very good synopsis Lenny.
Quote from: Jockey on April 18, 2021, 08:57:58 PM
Well said, Lenny. Theo was the athlete. Davante was the basketball player.
On one end.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2021, 08:56:20 PM
What?!?!?
All I'm saying is there are a myriad of factors. Explain to me why you think "it's not close" in light of the number of points many have made here?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 18, 2021, 09:04:23 PM
One is better than none.
Is Theo better than Otule? If you answer yes, then he, too, would have started for Buzz over Gardner.
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2021, 09:24:33 PM
Is Theo better than Otule? If you answer yes, then he, too, would have started for Buzz over Gardner.
Starting isn't the question. They would have split mins like Otule did with DG. Do you think Otule was better than Davante?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2021, 07:15:44 PM
If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose?
The correct answer is Theo and it's not close
Davante in a heartbeat just since his skill was so unique. Many many more options to get a Theo type of player on your team. Every P6 roster seemingly has a Theo John. As we'll see this year, we won't have trouble replacing him.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 18, 2021, 08:45:55 PM
OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:
1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.
2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.
Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.
Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.
Very well said, Bernstein.
Someone tell Coach K how bad Theo is before it's too late.
Quote from: Newsdreams on April 18, 2021, 08:14:52 PM
Japanese, not even close to top Europe leagues. Not to diminish Davante but he / and or his agent were smart enough to go to a weak league where he would become a star. People here have no clue on international basketball. See Japanese world ranking for basketball.
What did he say that was wrong? Nobody argued that the B League was Liga ACB or the Turkish Super Lig, but it's the second best league in Asia and it's always one of the highest paying.
Davante was the MVP in the French 2nd Division as a rookie. He could have moved up. And he's arguably the best offensive player in Japan now. He could go to China or the NBL or one of the Euro leagues if he wanted to, but they wouldn't pay him what he's making now. A couple guys from the B League have been quoted as turning down NBA looks later in their career cause they would have to take a pay cut
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 18, 2021, 08:45:55 PM
1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.
Just playing Devil's advocate a bit. But Theo wasn't eligible for those awards, because unlike Gardner, Theo was a starter...not a 6th man.
Who is better for a team is largely dependent upon who the rest of the team is. There is a reason Theo was targeted by Duke. He is a skilled big man, who is a defensive presence. On top of that he significantly increased his offensive abilities over the last year, which shows his commitment to constantly improving.
Gardner would not have made the MU teams Theo played on better. That's not because Theo was necessarily better than Gardner (they really aren't comparable players), but rather because Theo's teams needed a guy in the middle to influence shots. Gardner, would have made a team with defensive liabilities even worse.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 18, 2021, 10:33:43 PM
A couple guys from the B League have been quoted as turning down NBA looks later in their career cause they would have to take a pay cut
Unless those guys are talking about 10-day contracts, they're almost certainly lying. The highest-paid player in Japan makes $923k. The league average is $147K. The NBA rookie minimum is $898K.
Theo and Gardner were so different that it's almost like comparing Jayce to Junior. Skill sets almost diametrically opposed.
If I had the choice between them, could only have one, I'd take Gardner because his best skill was so unique and valuable; I'd hope that I had enough length and quickness on the perimeter to make it difficult for the opponent's big to take advantage of Gardner inside. Or if the other team played 5 out, I'd accept that I had to play some kind of zone whenever Gardner was in, and take my chances that the opponent's worst 3-point shooter wouldn't kill us.
Having said that, if I had a ton of scoring without getting anything from the 5 and if the rest of my roster was constructed in a way that what I needed most was a shot-blocker, I'd take Theo over Gardner.
Gardner >>>>> John
not even close...
What about a game with five Theos vs. five Davantes?
Chones bedder dan McIlvaine, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2021, 11:16:55 PM
Theo and Gardner were so different that it's almost like comparing Jayce to Junior. Skill sets almost diametrically opposed.
This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.
That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.
Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rank of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.
In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).
Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.
Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 19, 2021, 05:49:04 AM
This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.
That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.
Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rating of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.
In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).
Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.
Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.
Yep. The last sentence is what I was trying to say but less eloquently.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 19, 2021, 05:49:04 AM
This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.
That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.
Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rank of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.
In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).
Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.
Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.
Your last paragraph sums it up.
I would've loved to see a healthy Theo play on a good team. I think in a weird way, his injuries helped him play less aggressively on the defensive end which limited his fouls.
With that said, I'll take the proven entity who was a really good player on really good teams. Plus like anyone with a pulse, I have a soft spot for Davante !
Quote from: forgetful on April 18, 2021, 10:50:34 PM
Just playing Devil's advocate a bit. But Theo wasn't eligible for those awards, because unlike Gardner, Theo was a starter...not a 6th man.
C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:45:10 AM
C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.
Lenny
Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?
How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:45:10 AM
C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.
Still playing Devil's Advocate. He was 2nd team All Big East in 2013-14. The Big East had 10 teams that year, smaller and more watered down than this year.
Also, Matt Carlino was 2nd team all Big East. Would you rather have him or DJ Carton?
Quote from: forgetful on April 19, 2021, 08:56:42 AM
Still playing Devil's Advocate. He was 2nd team All Big East in 2013-14. The Big East had 10 teams that year, smaller and more watered down than this year.
Also, Matt Carlino was 2nd team all Big East. Would you rather have him or DJ Carton?
Stop with the facts. If Lenny says the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams, then the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams.
Quote from: BLM on April 19, 2021, 08:59:45 AM
Stop with the facts. If Lenny says the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams, then the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams.
You don't think the old Big East was a tougher league than this one?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 08:45:10 AM
C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.
This is not true. The Big East was not much better when Davante was named Second Team. That was in 2014 when the only difference in makeup was not having UConn. The bad team that Gardner led was in the first year of the "watered down" Big East, as you call it.
Gardner was a good, not great offensive player. He looks better than he was because his footwork was rare for someone with his physique, but his actual shooting percentages were mediocre for his position. He's behind not just Theo, but also Fischer, Heldt, and Otule in terms of 2PFG% and that's just guys from this decade.
The reality is since Mac, we just haven't had many really good big men here. We romanticize Gardner because the bar is so low that he looks good by comparison. The best two-way multi-year big was probably Fischer, but the game was passing him by as he was here so his lack of lateral speed killed him when it came to guarding the perimeter and switching.
If Gardner's someone's pick, so be it, but it's not because he was some great player but because MU has traditionally had mediocre bigs for more than a generation now.
Quote from: keefe on April 19, 2021, 08:52:36 AM
Lenny
Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?
How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.
I actually think most conference award voters pretty much half ass it.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 19, 2021, 09:05:03 AM
You don't think the old Big East was a tougher league than this one?
I think it's debatable, but 2013-14 was not the "old Big East" people like to wax nostalgic over.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 18, 2021, 10:58:10 PM
Unless those guys are talking about 10-day contracts, they're almost certainly lying. The highest-paid player in Japan makes $923k. The league average is $147K. The NBA rookie minimum is $898K.
I wonder if there is a difference in endorsement deals as one of the biggest players in Japan, and a bench guy in the NBA.
Theo Seasons BPM:
4.5
4.9
3.7
-3.5
DBPM:
4.0
3.4
5.0
1.6
OBPM:
0.9
1.1
-1.3
-5.1
Devante Seasons BPM:
4.2
6.3
10
7.8
DBPM:
0.4
1.7
2.2
0.9
OBPM:
3.8
4.6
7.8
6.9
Bottom line is Devante's O was almost always better that Theos D, Devantes D was bad but is pretty much equal to theos poor offense. Finally Devante overall was never detrimental to the team in points while on the court.
Devante > Theo
Though I love them both for what they brought.
Who cares?
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 19, 2021, 09:05:03 AM
You don't think the old Big East was a tougher league than this one?
2013-14 wasn't the "old" Big East. It was the first year of the "new" Big East.
First team all-Big East that year was:
James Bell, Villanova
Semaj Christon, Xavier
Bryce Cotton, Providence
Doug McDermott, Creighton
D'Angelo Harrison, St. John's
Markel Starks, Georgetown
Not exactly Murderer's Row.
So, can we move on to Jarrod Lovette vs Luke Fisher?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 19, 2021, 09:15:12 AM
So, can we move on to Jarrod Lovette vs Luke Fisher?
Not hypothetical enough to get really angry about. Let's do Eke vs. McMorrow instead.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 19, 2021, 09:19:23 AM
Not hypothetical enough to get really angry about. Let's do Eke vs. McMorrow instead.
Kevin Menard vs Bret Roseboro
Quote from: Pakuni on April 19, 2021, 09:23:25 AM
Kevin Menard vs Bret Roseboro
Niv Berkowitz vs Harry Frolling.
Theo is a way better 3 point shooter than Davante!
I appreciate Gardner for what he did on the offensive end. I think of him as a 6'7, 300 lb Rowsey. Amazing on one end of the floor. Indifferent on the other.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 19, 2021, 05:49:04 AM
This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.
That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.
Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rank of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.
In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).
Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.
Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.
Well stated, brew.
And I'll add that many of Theo's fouls, especially his soph and junior years, were moving screens -- not defensive fouls at all.
Quote from: keefe on April 19, 2021, 08:52:36 AM
Lenny
Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?
How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.
Are the people who vote for All Big East more knowledgeable than Coach K? Some here think he has made Theo some kind of charity case.
Quote from: MU82 on April 19, 2021, 09:49:33 AM
Are the people who vote for All Big East more knowledgeable than Coach K? Some here think he has made Theo some kind of charity case.
Mike
That's fallacious and you know it.
The comparison was post-season honors. K offering John a year at Duke has nothing to do with what Lenny was saying.
Theo John getting a gig at Duke is great for the kid. But as I said earlier, K taking Theo John says more about the state of Duke basketball than it does about Theo John.
Duke's roster is experiencing high churn and K adding John and Jones (who was a bit player at Davidson) is a yawner. I am not saying it's charity but I guarantee the Duke alums I know aren't excited about Theo or Jones.
It's great that Theo has an opportunity to matriculate at Duke. It's an excellent pedigree booster. But speaking frankly, I won't spend a second following his Duke career.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 19, 2021, 09:23:25 AM
Kevin Menard vs Bret Roseboro
I'm losing it. Did Kevin Menard actually attend MU? Did he play 1 year and transfer like Ron Howard?
Quote from: The Lens on April 19, 2021, 10:16:52 AM
I'm losing it. Did Kevin Menard actually attend MU? Did he play 1 year and transfer like Ron Howard?
Yep, transferred to Carthage College in Kenosha.
Quote from: keefe on April 19, 2021, 10:15:40 AM
Mike
That's fallacious and you know it.
The comparison was post-season honors. K offering John a year at Duke has nothing to do with what Lenny was saying.
Theo John getting a gig at Duke is great for the kid. But as I said earlier, K taking Theo John says more about the state of Duke basketball than it does about Theo John.
Duke's roster is experiencing high churn and K adding John and Jones (who was a bit player at Davidson) is a yawner. I am not saying it's charity but I guarantee the Duke alums I know aren't excited about Theo or Jones.
It's great that Theo has an opportunity to matriculate at Duke. It's an excellent pedigree booster. But speaking frankly, I won't spend a second following his Duke career.
Are the Duke alums that aren't excited about adding Theo the same people that are the Washington hoops fans that are convinced Hopkins is absolutely killing it at Washington?
Quote from: keefe on April 19, 2021, 08:52:36 AM
Lenny
Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?
How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.
Uncircumcised Philistines.
I was doing some Patrick Baldwin Jr twitter searches last week and found a Duke fan tweeting:
"Get me Baldwin and Theo John and I am a happy man"
Quote from: tower912 on April 19, 2021, 09:42:42 AM
I appreciate Gardner for what he did on the offensive end. I think of him as a 6'7, 300 lb Rowsey. Amazing on one end of the floor. Indifferent on the other.
Which end of the floor was Theo "amazing" on?
People are allowed selective memories, recency bias, etc. They can massage and manipulate statistics. They can love Theo as a leader and celebrate his commitment to change and his politics. All of that can't make him something he wasn't - a really good college basketball player with a long list of accomplishments. That would be Davante.
Now, there's a chance (small, imo) that Theo (in year 5 at Duke) might become what Davante was. I hope he does. But anybody who says he was while at MU is drunk on the blue and gold kool aid.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 10:46:32 AM
Which end of the floor was Theo "amazing" on?
People are allowed selective memories, recency bias, etc. They can massage and manipulate statistics. They can love Theo as a leader and celebrate his commitment to change and his politics. All of that can't make him something he wasn't - a really good college basketball player with a long list of accomplishments. That would be Davante.
Now, there's a chance (small, imo) that Theo (in year 5 at Duke) might become what Davante was. I hope he does. But anybody who says he was while at MU is drunk on the blue and gold kool aid.
With all due respect, you are engaging in the same selective memories and recency bias that you are accusing others of engaging in.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 10:46:32 AM
Which end of the floor was Theo "amazing" on?
People are allowed selective memories, recency bias, etc. They can massage and manipulate statistics. They can love Theo as a leader and celebrate his commitment to change and his politics. All of that can't make him something he wasn't - a really good college basketball player with a long list of accomplishments. That would be Davante.
Now, there's a chance (small, imo) that Theo (in year 5 at Duke) might become what Davante was. I hope he does. But anybody who says he was while at MU is drunk on the blue and gold kool aid.
Two different players. Theo never had the hands that Davante had and never will.
Typical scoop lol
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 19, 2021, 10:50:15 AM
With all due respect, you are engaging in the same selective memories and recency bias that you are accusing others of engaging in.
Maybe, Fluff, but my selective memories of Gardner's accomplishments include:
1. Two Big East 6th Man of the Year Awards.
2. A 2nd team All Big East selection.
3. An NCAA tournament All Region team
4. A regular season Big East Championship
5. 7 NCAA tournament wins, 2 S16s and an Elite 8.
6. Marquette's MVP in 2013-14
I could go on, but what would you say Theo's top 6 individual and team accomplishments were at Marquette? People want to say they're hard to compare because they're "different types of players"? OK, a lot of truth in that. But as to who was the better, more accomplished basketball player - no contest.
Debating Devante and Theo? I would have thought that would last about 15-20 seconds, not a couple of days.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 19, 2021, 10:50:15 AM
With all due respect, you are engaging in the same selective memories and recency bias that you are accusing others of engaging in.
Exactly. Davante was a fine role player on some good teams. As soon as he had to be the man, the team turned terrible. He was never suited to be more than that good role player. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend he's more than what he was.
The struggle to be, or at least sound "right" is real.
FWIW, if you all add "in my opinion" instead of saying "it isn't debatable" - you're all right!
Quote from: Goose on April 19, 2021, 11:18:10 AM
Debating Devante and Theo? I would have thought that would last about 15-20 seconds, not a couple of days.
The 15 second debate. Rick Pitino: A Man for the Ages or a Flash in the Pan?
I think the lack of offensively skilled big men we had prior to Davante inflated his abilities. I do remember he was a bit of a black hole at times. It doesn't shock me that his efficiency metrics wouldn't be the greatest.
I think Theo fits with modern basketball more than Davante would. As others have said, both brought value to the table, but they were at their best as role players.
Quote from: keefe on April 19, 2021, 10:15:40 AM
Mike
That's fallacious and you know it.
The comparison was post-season honors. K offering John a year at Duke has nothing to do with what Lenny was saying.
Theo John getting a gig at Duke is great for the kid. But as I said earlier, K taking Theo John says more about the state of Duke basketball than it does about Theo John.
Duke's roster is experiencing high churn and K adding John and Jones (who was a bit player at Davidson) is a yawner. I am not saying it's charity but I guarantee the Duke alums I know aren't excited about Theo or Jones.
It's great that Theo has an opportunity to matriculate at Duke. It's an excellent pedigree booster. But speaking frankly, I won't spend a second following his Duke career.
Okey dokey. You have stated your opinion, as I did mine. Have a good one.
The big difference between the two players in my opinion is this.
Theo came in as a hard nosed athlete who lacked fundamentals. He improved dramatically on the offensive end of the floor, while learning to control himself more on defense to be an intimidation presence, who could stay on the floor for extended periods. By the time he was a senior, we tried to run parts of the offense through him, forcing other teams to double. He quickly learned how to pass the ball out of double teams and was actually an effective post passer. His progress was impressive to anyone actually watching the games. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment were inspiring.
Gardner came in with crafty offensive skills, but was worthless on defense and was limited by the fact that he was out of shape. Gardner graduated as a skilled offensive player, who was still worthless on defense and was still limited by the fact that he never got himself in shape. My recollection of him was a person who grumbled all the time, focused on himself, and didn't seem to be concerned with dealing with his weaknesses. If he had Theo's work ethic, and focused on getting himself in good physical condition and learning to play hard nosed defense, he would have been amazing. He didn't.
As others have said. Give me Theo. I'll surround him with offensive players. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment alone would be well worth it.
Best thread in a long time.
Quote from: forgetful on April 19, 2021, 12:56:22 PM
The big difference between the two players in my opinion is this.
Theo came in as a hard nosed athlete who lacked fundamentals. He improved dramatically on the offensive end of the floor, while learning to control himself more on defense to be an intimidation presence, who could stay on the floor for extended periods. By the time he was a senior, we tried to run parts of the offense through him, forcing other teams to double. He quickly learned how to pass the ball out of double teams and was actually an effective post passer. His progress was impressive to anyone actually watching the games. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment were inspiring.
Gardner came in with crafty offensive skills, but was worthless on defense and was limited by the fact that he was out of shape. Gardner graduated as a skilled offensive player, who was still worthless on defense and was still limited by the fact that he never got himself in shape. My recollection of him was a person who grumbled all the time, focused on himself, and didn't seem to be concerned with dealing with his weaknesses. If he had Theo's work ethic, and focused on getting himself in good physical condition and learning to play hard nosed defense, he would have been amazing. He didn't.
As others have said. Give me Theo. I'll surround him with offensive players. His work ethic, attitude, and commitment alone would be well worth it.
There is no doubt Davante was grossly out of shape. His Sr. year, despite decent stats, was monumentally disappointing. He clearly gained weight and showed poor discipline by consuming vast amounts of food and calories.
However, that fact that he gorged on junk food, seemingly didn't care, and it's fair to question his work ethic, doesn't mean it's relevant to this discussion. We are analyzing the two players and their overall skill level and value to the program. Cam Marotta may have had 5 times the work ethic than Allen Iverson. Again, this has nothing to do with their value and skill level as a member of a basketball team.
Now "attitude" can inspire teammates and be infectious. But not as much as timely buckets or in Davante's case: his overall vibe and ability to entertain. The crowd at the BC absolutely loved Davante as did his teammates. You could feel the energy in the building when he was carving up dudes down on the block on a regular basis. So while work ethic and attitude may have applied to Theo, they did not lead to making the players around him better. Nor did they motivate them or provide more enthusiasm in the crowd unlike Davante. The fact is being in better condition, having a better work ethic, and supposedly a better attitude are totally irrelevant when comparing these players.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 19, 2021, 11:19:54 AM
The struggle to be, or at least sound "right" is real.
FWIW, if you all add "in my opinion" instead of saying "it isn't debatable" - you're all right!
What fun is that?
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 19, 2021, 01:41:57 PM
There is no doubt Davante was grossly out of shape. His Sr. year, despite decent stats, was monumentally disappointing. He clearly gained weight and showed poor discipline by consuming vast amounts of food and calories.
However, that fact that he gorged on junk food, seemingly didn't care, and it's fair to question his work ethic, doesn't mean it's relevant to this discussion. We are analyzing the two players and their overall skill level and value to the program. Cam Marotta may have had 5 times the work ethic than Allen Iverson. Again, this has nothing to do with their value and skill level as a member of a basketball team.
Now "attitude" can inspire teammates and be infectious. But not as much as timely buckets or in Davante's case: his overall vibe and ability to entertain. The crowd at the BC absolutely loved Davante as did his teammates. You could feel the energy in the building when he was carving up dudes down on the block on a regular basis. So while work ethic and attitude may have applied to Theo, they did not lead to making the players around him better. Nor did they motivate them or provide more enthusiasm in the crowd unlike Davante. The fact is being in better condition, having a better work ethic, and supposedly a better attitude are totally irrelevant when comparing these players.
You are making a boatload of unprovable assumptions here.
He is also saying that whatever he values less is irrelevant to the argument.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 19, 2021, 11:18:42 AM
Exactly. Davante was a fine role player on some good teams. As soon as he had to be the man, the team turned terrible. He was never suited to be more than that good role player. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend he's more than what he was.
I promise this will be my last word (I can hear the applause, lol) but your post is disingenuous at best. As 2nd team All Big East and MU's MVP he was only able to lead Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and company to a 17-15, 9-9 season that you call "terrible". Meanwhile, Theo wasn't close to being "the man" on a worse team. Because he's not good enough.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 19, 2021, 02:32:46 PM
I promise this will be my last word (I can hear the applause, lol) but your post is disingenuous at best. As 2nd team All Big East and MU's MVP he was only able to lead Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and company to a 17-15, 9-9 season that you call "terrible". Meanwhile, Theo wasn't close to being "the man" on a worse team. Because he's not good enough.
Just like Davante wasn't good enough. He only played at one end and when he was the man, it was Buzz's worst offense here. This doesn't make my post disingenuous, it supports it.
I was far from a Devante fan (probably more critical of him than Theo John) and IMO there is no discussion on who was a better basketball player, importance to a team and how that translated to team success. Mind you, I could not stand watching Devante play for the most part and truly unbiased opinion. I would not have recruited or played either guy if I was the coach.
If I'm coaching a good team, with good guards, give me theo to complement them all day over davante.
Quote from: JTJ3 on April 19, 2021, 02:45:44 PM
If I'm coaching a good team, with good guards, give me theo to complement them all day over davante.
We had good guards throughout his time here. How exactly did Theo complement them?
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 19, 2021, 02:47:39 PM
We had good guards throughout his time here. How exactly did Theo complement them?
I think pretty well up until the quality of the guards fell off. Would the last few years have been better with Davante i stars of Theo? Doubtful.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 19, 2021, 02:50:51 PM
I think pretty well up until the quality of the guards fell off. Would the last few years have been better with Davante i stars of Theo? Doubtful.
No, I mean
how did he complement them? Did he make it easier for them to get open looks by demanding a double team when he got the ball down low? Was he a good passer in the half court? Did he get offensive rebounds to prolong possessions? Did he set good screens? Did he grab defensive rebounds and start the fast break with a good outlet pass?
To me those are the things that complement goods guards, and he pretty much did not do any of them, except maybe set good screens, though he was usually good for an illegal screen at least once a game.
Basically, with bad defensive guards he would block a couple shots a game and provide a deterrent, which is complementary, but he was out of position a lot on defense and on the boards by chasing blocks. I'm just not seeing it, I guess.
What's most important is, Davante and Theo both graduated from Marquette. The purpose of athletic scholarships is for the student athlete to get an education first and foremost. The on the court results are irrelevant to the stated purpose of education first
Quote from: Uncle Rico on April 19, 2021, 03:30:41 PM
What's most important is, Davante and Theo both graduated from Marquette. The purpose of athletic scholarships is for the student athlete to get an education first and foremost. The on the court results are irrelevant to the stated purpose of education first
Theo may have graduated from MU but plenty of people will still root against him for getting a grad degree and using his eligibility somewhere else ie Duane Wilson.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 19, 2021, 03:37:30 PM
Theo may have graduated from MU but plenty of people will still root against him for getting a grad degree and using his eligibility somewhere else ie Duane Wilson.
And many people will root for Theo as they also did for Duane.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 19, 2021, 03:37:30 PM
Theo may have graduated from MU but plenty of people will still root against him for getting a grad degree and using his eligibility somewhere else ie Duane Wilson.
I did not love Theo's game and just critiqued it a bit in this thread, but the guy gave his all to us for four years and that is all you can ask. He has more than earned the right to go play wherever he wants, and I hope he is great and has a fulfilling and prosperous career in basketball if that is what he wants. I hope he really enjoys his year at Duke and in the end is happy that he went.
Quote from: tower912 on April 19, 2021, 02:19:57 PM
He is also saying that whatever he values less is irrelevant to the argument.
Tower we will just agree to disagree. At the end if the day this game is about "buckets".
Now and in time to be,
Wherever MU Blue/Gold is worn.
I hope Theo knocks out of the park at Duke. I see no reason to root against him or have any negative thoughts about his future. In some regard his going to Duke makes me feel a bit better about Wojo. He did the kid right by promoting him to Duke. Not so sure it will be resume builder for him, but a very classy move IMO.
Quote from: MuggsyB on April 19, 2021, 05:05:53 PM
Tower we will just agree to disagree. At the end if the day this game is about "buckets".
Yep. Both getting them and preventing the other team from getting them
This article about the comings and goings at Duke show that K's crumbling program must have been desperate to have to stoop so low as to bring in Theo.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article250877604.html?
I mean, K only has 3 of the top 20 recruits in the country coming in, including the kid who is expected to be the No. 1 choice in the 2022 NBA Draft, as well as several other talented players.
Quote from: MU82 on April 23, 2021, 07:56:15 AM
This article about the comings and goings at Duke show that K's crumbling program must have been desperate to have to stoop so low as to bring in Theo.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article250877604.html?
I mean, K only has 3 of the top 20 recruits in the country coming in, including the kid who is expected to be the No. 1 choice in the 2022 NBA Draft, as well as several other talented players.
I can definitely see the match of Theo to Duke. If he's only needed 10-15 minutes a game, he could be very valuable. He won't be needed for offense. They may be able to channel his shot blocking into better positional defense.
I think of Theo similar to Derrick Wilson. He is a valuable player, but was asked to do too much at MU. Part of it is I think his injuries probably made it difficult to ever take that next step as a player.
I thank Theo for his time at Marquette and congratulate him on his degree. He was more consequential to the program then Henry Ellenson, who we should all forget.
Quote from: cheebs09 on April 23, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
I can definitely see the match of Theo to Duke. If he's only needed 10-15 minutes a game, he could be very valuable. He won't be needed for offense. They may be able to channel his shot blocking into better positional defense.
I think of Theo similar to Derrick Wilson. He is a valuable player, but was asked to do too much at MU. Part of it is I think his injuries probably made it difficult to ever take that next step as a player.
I bet he gets more than 10-15 per game.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 23, 2021, 09:11:49 AM
I bet he gets more than 10-15 per game.
Wonder how his knee is doing? That could impact his minutes.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 19, 2021, 03:58:43 PM
I did not love Theo's game and just critiqued it a bit in this thread, but the guy gave his all to us for four years and that is all you can ask. He has more than earned the right to go play wherever he wants, and I hope he is great and has a fulfilling and prosperous career in basketball if that is what he wants. I hope he really enjoys his year at Duke and in the end is happy that he went.
100% agree. I'm not a fan of Theo's game either - I think the Derrick Wilson parallel that Cheebs suggests is a good one. However, I wish him nothing but the best. I hope he thrives at Duke and beyond. Unlike some Scoopers, I don't view players who decide to transfer as traitors.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 23, 2021, 09:33:26 AM
100% agree. I'm not a fan of Theo's game either - I think the Derrick Wilson parallel that Cheebs suggests is a good one. However, I wish him nothing but the best. I hope he thrives at Duke and beyond. Unlike some Scoopers, I don't view players who decide to transfer as traitors.
*Trader
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 23, 2021, 09:33:26 AM
100% agree. I'm not a fan of Theo's game either - I think the Derrick Wilson parallel that Cheebs suggests is a good one. However, I wish him nothing but the best. I hope he thrives at Duke and beyond. Unlike some Scoopers, I don't view players who decide to transfer as traitors.
I like Theo. What I could not understand is why Wojo made such a great effort to run the offense through him this year. He was not a great offensive threat. I understand the idea of drawing fouls on the opponent, but we needed an offense like Buzz ran his second year. Move the ball around quickly to get open three point shots seemed to me a much better plan to me than the two things we were doing this year. Dumping the ball inside to Theo was not very effective. Having our guards dribble around instead of moving the ball was not effective either.
Quote from: bilsu on April 23, 2021, 02:55:32 PM
I like Theo. What I could not understand is why Wojo made such a great effort to run the offense through him this year. He was not a great offensive threat. I understand the idea of drawing fouls on the opponent, but we needed an offense like Buzz ran his second year. Move the ball around quickly to get open three point shots seemed to me a much better plan to me than the two things we were doing this year. Dumping the ball inside to Theo was not very effective. Having our guards dribble around instead of moving the ball was not effective either.
Are you implying that Wojo wasn't a strong strategist?
Watch next, it'll be implied that Wojo wasn't strong in making in-game (or post-game) adjustments.
Quote from: bilsu on April 23, 2021, 02:55:32 PM
I like Theo. What I could not understand is why Wojo made such a great effort to run the offense through him this year. He was not a great offensive threat. I understand the idea of drawing fouls on the opponent, but we needed an offense like Buzz ran his second year. Move the ball around quickly to get open three point shots seemed to me a much better plan to me than the two things we were doing this year. Dumping the ball inside to Theo was not very effective. Having our guards dribble around instead of moving the ball was not effective either.
Can't have that kind of movement playing 3 out, 2-in, especially when one of the three out is Cain.
Quote from: bilsu on April 23, 2021, 02:55:32 PMWhat I could not understand is why Wojo made such a great effort to run the offense through him this year.
And if you're going to run the offense through a guy that's shoots 75% from three, maybe let him take more than 0.15 threes per game.
Effen Wojo. Cost Theo the opportunity to be the greatest 3-point shooter in college basketball history!
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 19, 2021, 02:59:25 PM
No, I mean how did he complement them?
"Markus, are those new shoes? That shade of ultimate green really matches your light from Wojo."
Quote from: bilsu on April 23, 2021, 02:55:32 PM
I like Theo. What I could not understand is why Wojo made such a great effort to run the offense through him this year. He was not a great offensive threat. I understand the idea of drawing fouls on the opponent, but we needed an offense like Buzz ran his second year. Move the ball around quickly to get open three point shots seemed to me a much better plan to me than the two things we were doing this year. Dumping the ball inside to Theo was not very effective. Having our guards dribble around instead of moving the ball was not effective either.
Yep. It was an idea, but not a very good one. The only guess I can come up with is that Wojo saw how Ewing used Wahab and thought "Theo can do that too!". Our guards sometimes had the same deer in the headlights look that Wojo had.
I really liked Theo and hope he gets some decent minutes at Duke. He always, always played hard.
Did Wojo really run the offense through Theo all that often?
Quote from: bilsu on April 23, 2021, 02:55:32 PM
I like Theo. What I could not understand is why Wojo made such a great effort to run the offense through him this year.
What's not to understand? Wojo was an incompetent moron.
Quote from: barfolomew on April 23, 2021, 04:51:55 PM
"Markus, are those new shoes? That shade of ultimate green really matches your light from Wojo."
Post of the week!
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 19, 2021, 02:59:25 PM
No, I mean how did he complement them? Did he make it easier for them to get open looks by demanding a double team when he got the ball down low? Was he a good passer in the half court? Did he get offensive rebounds to prolong possessions? Did he set good screens? Did he grab defensive rebounds and start the fast break with a good outlet pass?
To me those are the things that complement goods guards, and he pretty much did not do any of them, except maybe set good screens, though he was usually good for an illegal screen at least once a game.
Basically, with bad defensive guards he would block a couple shots a game and provide a deterrent, which is complementary, but he was out of position a lot on defense and on the boards by chasing blocks. I'm just not seeing it, I guess.
i agree with you. I know a lot of folks like Theo, and that's fine. I didn't dislike him as a player. It's just that I found his game marginal. Offensively he gave little to the equation. Maybe a decent move once or twice each game, but nothing consistent. Defensively? Obviously he blocked shots. It just seemed like his overall defensive play was average, punctuated with a lot of fouls. I wondered what he did in the off season to improve? Oh, that's right, his free throw shooting was, what, 75% this year?
Once again Ben Steele crushes his Warrior coverage. I wonder what other schools reached out to Theo.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2021/04/24/marquettes-theo-john-recruited-duke-coach-k-mike-krzyzewski/7365833002/
Long talk with K when MU practiced at Cameron Indoor. Going to wear 12 at Duke.
Wojo's old number. That's pretty cool.
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2021, 05:56:01 PM
Theo worked out in Durham after the UNC game. K decided he wanted him. Good luck to Theo.
I assumed they had made a connection during their interaction. Theo confirmed it.
I'm glad for Theo. He will get to play at a special place and I hope he gets to experience going to the Sweet 16. I can't root for Duke to go any further and I don't think they will. One-and-dones need to be special (AD or Zion special) to have a chance at the Final Four.
That being said, I am glad MU & Theo are moving on.
Quote from: Viper on April 23, 2021, 08:28:51 PM
i agree with you. I know a lot of folks like Theo, and that's fine. I didn't dislike him as a player. It's just that I found his game marginal. Offensively he gave little to the equation. Maybe a decent move once or twice each game, but nothing consistent. Defensively? Obviously he blocked shots. It just seemed like his overall defensive play was average, punctuated with a lot of fouls. I wondered what he did in the off season to improve? Oh, that's right, his free throw shooting was, what, 75% this year?
Just have surgeries that hampered his play in the previous 2 seasons but gutted it out for the good of the program and teammates.
Quote from: dad's couch on April 24, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
Just have surgeries that hampered his play in the previous 2 seasons but gutted it out for the good of the program and teammates.
i understand that, and respect that he had injuries to overcome.
Quote from: tower912 on April 24, 2021, 11:18:08 AM
Long talk with K when MU practiced at Cameron Indoor. Going to wear 12 at Duke.
A.k.a tampering.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on April 25, 2021, 12:10:54 PM
A.k.a tampering.
I understand that upon hearing of K's meeting with Theo John the NCAA launched a major investigation of UNC Asheville.
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
Quote from: tower912 on April 24, 2021, 11:18:08 AM
Long talk with K when MU practiced at Cameron Indoor. Going to wear 12 at Duke.
There's also no way Theo didn't talk to Wojo until after he announced his commitment. Wojo set this whole thing up behind the scenes.
Quote from: tower912 on April 24, 2021, 11:18:08 AM
Long talk with K when MU practiced at Cameron Indoor. Going to wear 12 at Duke.
Derrick Wilson's number. Apropos.
Hadn't thought of that. Good catch. Equally stellar character.
Edit:. Pops Sims and a passel of famous NFL QBs, too. But equally irrelevant.