Theo John transferring?

[Newsdreams]

FYI, the Japanese B league is their highest league. And he makes quite a bit of cash in it.

Japanese, not even close to top Europe leagues. Not to diminish Davante but he / and or his agent were smart enough to go to a weak league where he would become a star. People here have no clue on international basketball. See Japanese world ranking for basketball.

[MuggsyB]

It really depends on the team you build around them.  I would rather have a guard oriented team with Theo guarding the rim than a post oriented team with Davante playing defense underneath.  Both were good in different ways.

This is why I think it's debatable.  But as we see every year scoring is at a premium in the NCAA tournament.  Let me ask you this:  In a close game down the stretch who would you want on the floor?  People seem to forget Davante sealed a number of big-time games for us.

[The Sultan]

This is why I think it's debatable.  But as we see every year scoring is at a premium in the NCAA tournament.  Let me ask you this:  In a close game down the stretch who would you want on the floor?  People seem to forget Davante sealed a number of big-time games for us.

I would run an offense / defense substitution with the two of them.  I wouldn't run my offense around Davante though.

[WarriorFan]

Both have significant limitations... but I'd take Davante in a heatbeat.  Better basketball sense overall and a gifted scorer from anywhere.  Theo's defense is over-rated because of the blocks because for every block he gets, he gives up about 5 easy buckets due to being out of position.  The problem with Theo is that on offense he's like an extra defender.  No concept of where to be or how to move and he's in the way (bring his defender with him) of other guys trying to move/score.  I can't see him making an impact at Duke unless they are really bad next year. 

[Pakuni]

Theo's defense is over-rated because of the blocks because for every block he gets, he gives up about 5 easy buckets due to being out of position.

Sounds very scientific.

[Herman Cain]

I disagree and to say it's not close is ridiculous.  Davante played on much, much, better teams.  He couldn't stay on the floor more than half the game because of his defense.  But he was a weapon in the post and did a number of additional good things offensively including screening and understanding his role.

Theo is more talented, certainly a better defender and athlete, but struggled to score the basketball.  In addition his defense, while better than Davante's,  is grossly exaggerated.  The truth is he was a very mediocre defender despite being an excellent help shot blocker.  He fouled constantly, was an atrocious rebounder, and got torched constantly when he had to switch on smalls. 

The idea that he was a really good defender for us is complete nonsense if you watched the games.  So my contention is if you had literally no player that can guard the 5 on the roster you wouldn't take DG over TJ.  But if you could split Davante with a role player defender I would absolutely take him ahead of Theo.  To say "it's not close" is absurd imo.  Theo had a very pedestrian career at MU for his overall ability.

I am in the Davante Camp. He had one very strong collegiate skill, which was scoring inside using both hands. He never forced shots, and his inside strength opened things up for the rest of the team to perform well. My guess is that if Davante had not had the knee injury in 2011-12 we could have potentially made final four that year ( when he tried to come back he was not as effective). Worth noting, Davante also played in the old Big East conference, which was one of the strongest conferences ever. 

Davante also was a big Broken Yolk guy. 

[MuggsyB]

Both have significant limitations... but I'd take Davante in a heatbeat.  Better basketball sense overall and a gifted scorer from anywhere.  Theo's defense is over-rated because of the blocks because for every block he gets, he gives up about 5 easy buckets due to being out of position.  The problem with Theo is that on offense he's like an extra defender.  No concept of where to be or how to move and he's in the way (bring his defender with him) of other guys trying to move/score.  I can't see him making an impact at Duke unless they are really bad next year.

I would expect Theo to do a little better statistically at Duke.  He won't get the cheap fouls because of Coach K's whining.  He also should get more gimmies on a better overall team.  I do think your point about Davante's basketball "sense" or intangibles is completely valid.  He rarely made silly decisions on the offensive end.

[ATL MU Warrior]

That team wouldn't be very good either way

Probably not. But Theo is better suited to the way the game is played now. Which is the point.

[MuggsyB]

I am in the Davante Camp. He had one very strong collegiate skill, which was scoring inside using both hands. He never forced shots, and his inside strength opened things up for the rest of the team to perform well. My guess is that if Davante had not had the knee injury in 2011-12 we could have potentially made final four that year ( when he tried to come back he was not as effective). Worth noting, Davante also played in the old Big East conference, which was one of the strongest conferences ever. 

Davante also was a big Broken Yolk guy.

This is a great point.  There are things that do not show up in the box score Herman.  He absolutely created more space and opportunities in our offense.   And the fact that he played in the best conf in the country cannot be overlooked.  Most importantly, as you stated, he didn't force things.  He knew how to get a quality shot and exercised great patience.  The amount of times Theo got the ball in the post, could easily get to the rim, but instead took a jump hook or rushed 8 footer, is uncountable. It was absolutely infuriating to watch.

[keefe]

Who coaches the team?

Precisely

[Lennys Tap]

If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose? 

The correct answer is Theo and it's not close

OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:

1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.

2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.

Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.

Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.

[keefe]

I have it on very solid intel that Davante not only knew how to flush but could flush with authority.

That skill is something that cannot be underestimated during the Buzzard Era.

[Nukem2]

Your last sentance says it all.  Referring to Lenny.

[MuggsyB]

Probably not. But Theo is better suited to the way the game is played now. Which is the point.

Kaminsky's game is better suited to today game than Shaq's.  Who would you take? My point is there are other factors.  There wasn't a 5 in the Final 4 this year that took threes or really played like Theo or Davante.  The surrounding pieces would dictate their effectiveness.  As others have stated both have their limitations.

[Jockey]

I would expect Theo to do a little better statistically at Duke.  He won't get the cheap fouls because of Coach K's whining.  He also should get more gimmies on a better overall team.  I do think your point about Davante's basketball "sense" or intangibles is completely valid.  He rarely made silly decisions on the offensive end.

He'll still get the cheap fouls because he commits cheap fouls.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Kaminsky's game is better suited to today game than Shaq's.  Who would you take? My point is their are other factors.  There wasn't a 5 in the Final 4 this year that took threes or really played like Theo or Davante.  The surrounding pieces would dictate their effectiveness.  As others have stated both have their limitations.

What?!?!? 

[Jockey]

OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:

1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.

2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.

Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.

Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.

Well said, Lenny. Theo was the athlete. Davante was the basketball player.

[MuggsyB]

OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:

1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.

2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.

Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.

Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.

Very good synopsis Lenny.

[tower912]

Well said, Lenny. Theo was the athlete. Davante was the basketball player.

On one end.

[Lennys Tap]

On one end.

One is better than none.

[MuggsyB]

What?!?!?

All I'm saying is there are a myriad of factors.  Explain to me why you think "it's not close" in light of the number of points many have made here?

[tower912]

One is better than none.

Is Theo better than Otule?   If you answer yes, then he, too, would have started for Buzz over Gardner.

[MuggsyB]

Is Theo better than Otule?   If you answer yes, then he, too, would have started for Buzz over Gardner.

Starting isn't the question.  They would have split mins like Otule did with DG.  Do you think Otule was better than Davante?

[Jockey]

On one end.

Good catch, Tower.

[CountryRoads]

If you were building a team today and you had to choose between Theo and Davante, who would you choose? 

The correct answer is Theo and it's not close

Davante in a heartbeat just since his skill was so unique. Many many more options to get a Theo type of player on your team. Every P6 roster seemingly has a Theo John. As we'll see this year, we won't have trouble replacing him.