Theo John transferring?

[keefe]

OK, I'm 99% sure this is a joke and teal was intended but just in case you are actually serious, here are a few inconvenient facts:

1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.

2. Davante and Theo played roughly the same amount of minutes at Marquette. Davante scored almost twice as many points, had more rebounds, more assists and more steals. Theo had more turnovers and committed more fouls. The ONLY thing Theo did better was block shots - but his hunting the block hurt us more often than it helped us. The idea that Theo was a good defensive player is popular on Scoop but it's a myth.

Davante was an exceptionally skilled bid man. Good handle, good vision, great hands, crazy good moves and an incredibly soft touch. He didn't play much D. and wasn't a great athlete. But he was a great basketball player.

Theo had limited skills, was mechanical and foul prone. Bad hands, no handle, not much touch. To his credit he improved his FT shooting and developed a couple of post moves his senior year. Other than shot blocking, he didn't play much D either. Pretty good athlete, amazing physical specimen. Not a great basketball player.

Very well said, Bernstein.

[Pakuni]

Someone tell Coach K how bad Theo is before it's too late.

[JWags85]

Japanese, not even close to top Europe leagues. Not to diminish Davante but he / and or his agent were smart enough to go to a weak league where he would become a star. People here have no clue on international basketball. See Japanese world ranking for basketball.

What did he say that was wrong? Nobody argued that the B League was Liga ACB or the Turkish Super Lig, but it's the second best league in Asia and it's always one of the highest paying. 

Davante was the MVP in the French 2nd Division as a rookie. He could have moved up.  And he's arguably the best offensive player in Japan now.  He could go to China or the NBL or one of the Euro leagues if he wanted to, but they wouldn't pay him what he's making now. A couple guys from the B League have been quoted as turning down NBA looks later in their career cause they would have to take a pay cut

[forgetful]

1. Despite playing against much tougher competition (which means the competition for post season awards was also tougher), Davante was the 6th man of the year TWICE in the old Big East. In 2013-14, he was 2nd team All Big East. That season he was on the NCAA all regional team. Theo John's postseason honors? Zip. Not even an honorable mention.

Just playing Devil's advocate a bit. But Theo wasn't eligible for those awards, because unlike Gardner, Theo was a starter...not a 6th man.

Who is better for a team is largely dependent upon who the rest of the team is. There is a reason Theo was targeted by Duke. He is a skilled big man, who is a defensive presence. On top of that he significantly increased his offensive abilities over the last year, which shows his commitment to constantly improving.

Gardner would not have made the MU teams Theo played on better. That's not because Theo was necessarily better than Gardner (they really aren't comparable players), but rather because Theo's teams needed a guy in the middle to influence shots. Gardner, would have made a team with defensive liabilities even worse.

[Pakuni]

A couple guys from the B League have been quoted as turning down NBA looks later in their career cause they would have to take a pay cut

Unless those guys are talking about 10-day contracts, they're almost certainly lying. The highest-paid player in Japan makes $923k. The league average is $147K. The NBA rookie minimum is $898K.

[MU82]

Theo and Gardner were so different that it's almost like comparing Jayce to Junior. Skill sets almost diametrically opposed.

If I had the choice between them, could only have one, I'd take Gardner because his best skill was so unique and valuable; I'd hope that I had enough length and quickness on the perimeter to make it difficult for the opponent's big to take advantage of Gardner inside. Or if the other team played 5 out, I'd accept that I had to play some kind of zone whenever Gardner was in, and take my chances that the opponent's worst 3-point shooter wouldn't kill us.

Having said that, if I had a ton of scoring without getting anything from the 5 and if the rest of my roster was constructed in a way that what I needed most was a shot-blocker, I'd take Theo over Gardner.

[PointWarrior]

Gardner >>>>> John

not even close...

[Warrior Code]

What about a game with five Theos vs. five Davantes?

[4everwarriors]

Chones bedder dan McIlvaine, hey?

[brewcity77]

Theo and Gardner were so different that it's almost like comparing Jayce to Junior. Skill sets almost diametrically opposed.

This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.

That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.

Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rank of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.

In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).

Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.

Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.

[The Sultan]

This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.

That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.

Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rating of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.

In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).

Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.

Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.

Yep.  The last sentence is what I was trying to say but less eloquently.

[ATL MU Warrior]

This is where I'm at. They are completely different player types on completely different teams.

That said, Theo's foul troubles are something that improved vastly and are being massively overstated regarding the player he is now. He averaged 4.3 fouls/40 this year, nearly half his 8.5 as a freshman.

Davante as a team offensive player is overrated. He was fine as a moderate usage big as long as the offense didn't run through him. But the 28.6 average offensive rank of Marquette in his first 3 years plummeted to 97th as a senior when the offense ran through him.

In addition, it's at least interesting that Theo had a higher career eFG% than Gardner. It's not just because of his 3/4 from three anomaly, he also had a slightly better shooting percentage from 2 (57.3% to 57.0%).

Gardner had better post moves than Theo, but if the team was going to be built around him, the team wasn't going to be very good. We saw that in 2014. No one is building a team around Theo, but he's competent at both ends of the floor.

Of the two, Gardner is the better featured piece while Theo is the better role player. I would lean toward taking Theo because it means relying more on the surrounding cast to carry the offensive load, and we know neither player is going to successfully lead a team with their offense.

Your last paragraph sums it up.

[panda]

I would've loved to see a healthy Theo play on a good team. I think in a weird way, his injuries helped him play less aggressively on the defensive end which limited his fouls.

With that said, I'll take the proven entity who was a really good player on really good teams. Plus like anyone with a pulse, I have a soft spot for Davante !

[Lennys Tap]

Just playing Devil's advocate a bit. But Theo wasn't eligible for those awards, because unlike Gardner, Theo was a starter...not a 6th man.

C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.

[keefe]

C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.

Lenny

Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?

How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.

[forgetful]

C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.

Still playing Devil's Advocate. He was 2nd team All Big East in 2013-14. The Big East had 10 teams that year, smaller and more watered down than this year.

Also, Matt Carlino was 2nd team all Big East. Would you rather have him or DJ Carton?

[wadesworld]

Still playing Devil's Advocate. He was 2nd team All Big East in 2013-14. The Big East had 10 teams that year, smaller and more watered down than this year.

Also, Matt Carlino was 2nd team all Big East. Would you rather have him or DJ Carton?

Stop with the facts.  If Lenny says the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams, then the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams.

[MUfan12]

Stop with the facts.  If Lenny says the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams, then the Big East was much stronger and had many more teams.

You don't think the old Big East was a tougher league than this one?

[brewcity77]

C'mon, man. One of the years Davante was 6th man of the year he also was second team All Big East - when the Big East was bigger and much better than it is now. Was Theo (in a watered down version of the Big East) 2nd team All Big East? Third Team? Honorable mention? Davante was and is a special talent. Theo is a guy, nothing more.

This is not true. The Big East was not much better when Davante was named Second Team. That was in 2014 when the only difference in makeup was not having UConn. The bad team that Gardner led was in the first year of the "watered down" Big East, as you call it.

Gardner was a good, not great offensive player. He looks better than he was because his footwork was rare for someone with his physique, but his actual shooting percentages were mediocre for his position. He's behind not just Theo, but also Fischer, Heldt, and Otule in terms of 2PFG% and that's just guys from this decade.

The reality is since Mac, we just haven't had many really good big men here. We romanticize Gardner because the bar is so low that he looks good by comparison. The best two-way multi-year big was probably Fischer, but the game was passing him by as he was here so his lack of lateral speed killed him when it came to guarding the perimeter and switching.

If Gardner's someone's pick, so be it, but it's not because he was some great player but because MU has traditionally had mediocre bigs for more than a generation now.

[The Sultan]

Lenny

Why do you think the people who vote for All Big East are more knowledgeable than the Scoop Literati?

How dare you, sir. You forget yourself.

I actually think most conference award voters pretty much half ass it.

[brewcity77]

You don't think the old Big East was a tougher league than this one?

I think it's debatable, but 2013-14 was not the "old Big East" people like to wax nostalgic over.

[buckchuckler]

Unless those guys are talking about 10-day contracts, they're almost certainly lying. The highest-paid player in Japan makes $923k. The league average is $147K. The NBA rookie minimum is $898K.

I wonder if there is a difference in endorsement deals as one of the biggest players in Japan, and a bench guy in the NBA.

[Galway Eagle]

Theo Seasons BPM:

4.5
4.9
3.7
-3.5

DBPM:

4.0
3.4
5.0
1.6

OBPM:

0.9
1.1
-1.3
-5.1

Devante Seasons BPM:

4.2
6.3
10
7.8

DBPM:

0.4
1.7
2.2
0.9

OBPM:

3.8
4.6
7.8
6.9

Bottom line is Devante's O was almost always better that Theos D, Devantes D was bad but is pretty much equal to theos poor offense. Finally Devante overall was never detrimental to the team in points while on the court.

Devante > Theo

Though I love them both for what they brought.

[Uncle Rico]

Who cares?

[Pakuni]

You don't think the old Big East was a tougher league than this one?

2013-14 wasn't the "old" Big East. It was the first year of the "new" Big East.
First team all-Big East that year was:
James Bell, Villanova
Semaj Christon, Xavier
Bryce Cotton, Providence
Doug McDermott, Creighton
D'Angelo Harrison, St. John's
Markel Starks, Georgetown

Not exactly Murderer's Row.

So, can we move on to Jarrod Lovette vs Luke Fisher?